Knicks · Should we give Julius Randle more credit? (page 5)

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think randle is in the best shape of his life and it’s showing...also I think we finally have a great coaching staff that puts players in there comfort zones for success.

No way should we trade randle if he keeps playing this good, he’s playing like a super star something we’ve been needing for years

If he keeps up this level of play he is worth way more than a FRP. This year he is said to display leadership qualities and that's worth more to this team than another FRP

Randle is a 20-10 guy and maybe the best player on a miserable team. But I do not see him as a transformational superstar of a Karl Malone or Charles Barkley caliber. His absolute ceiling is a Kevin Love. And Love still needs LeBron to win a championship. Whereas LeBron does not need Love to win a championship.

I see any one of the Cade-Suggs-Mobley trio as a transformational superstar, so I think anything that increases our chances of getting one of them must be done. Marcus Morris is also an awesome player, but we did well by trading him for a late first rounder.

Sure they win championships with LeBron but in the books they need to put an asterisk next to the team because when a group of superstars all make a plan to play on the same team just to win a championship should be illegal.

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Papabear wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think randle is in the best shape of his life and it’s showing...also I think we finally have a great coaching staff that puts players in there comfort zones for success.

No way should we trade randle if he keeps playing this good, he’s playing like a super star something we’ve been needing for years

If he keeps up this level of play he is worth way more than a FRP. This year he is said to display leadership qualities and that's worth more to this team than another FRP

Randle is a 20-10 guy and maybe the best player on a miserable team. But I do not see him as a transformational superstar of a Karl Malone or Charles Barkley caliber. His absolute ceiling is a Kevin Love. And Love still needs LeBron to win a championship. Whereas LeBron does not need Love to win a championship.

I see any one of the Cade-Suggs-Mobley trio as a transformational superstar, so I think anything that increases our chances of getting one of them must be done. Marcus Morris is also an awesome player, but we did well by trading him for a late first rounder.

Papabear Says

Sure they win championships with LeBron but in the books they need to put an asterisk next to the team because when a group of superstars all make a plan to play on the same team just to win a championship should be illegal.

+1k LBJ screwed the nba with stars wanting to team up never happened before because everyone wanted to be the best not join the best...

It’s gotta burn LBJ that he couldn’t do it on his own

fitzfarm wrote:

Papabear wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think randle is in the best shape of his life and it’s showing...also I think we finally have a great coaching staff that puts players in there comfort zones for success.

No way should we trade randle if he keeps playing this good, he’s playing like a super star something we’ve been needing for years

If he keeps up this level of play he is worth way more than a FRP. This year he is said to display leadership qualities and that's worth more to this team than another FRP

Randle is a 20-10 guy and maybe the best player on a miserable team. But I do not see him as a transformational superstar of a Karl Malone or Charles Barkley caliber. His absolute ceiling is a Kevin Love. And Love still needs LeBron to win a championship. Whereas LeBron does not need Love to win a championship.

I see any one of the Cade-Suggs-Mobley trio as a transformational superstar, so I think anything that increases our chances of getting one of them must be done. Marcus Morris is also an awesome player, but we did well by trading him for a late first rounder.

Papabear Says

Sure they win championships with LeBron but in the books they need to put an asterisk next to the team because when a group of superstars all make a plan to play on the same team just to win a championship should be illegal.

+1k LBJ screwed the nba with stars wanting to team up never happened before because everyone wanted to be the best not join the best...

It’s gotta burn LBJ that he couldn’t do it on his own

? He carried that CLE team

martin wrote:

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Click here to view the Tweet

The best part of this is he's STILL Julius Randle. He's the same guy. He's just better coached and so are the guys around him. They KNOW where to be. HE KNOWS where to find them. Now we can really start evaluating our people, because you know as the season progresses they will be better and better coached and its going to start coming down to who can get stops and make shots. I feel like in recent years the whole org was too ass backwards to even gauge this simple thing. Are we talented?

martin wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Papabear wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think randle is in the best shape of his life and it’s showing...also I think we finally have a great coaching staff that puts players in there comfort zones for success.

No way should we trade randle if he keeps playing this good, he’s playing like a super star something we’ve been needing for years

If he keeps up this level of play he is worth way more than a FRP. This year he is said to display leadership qualities and that's worth more to this team than another FRP

Randle is a 20-10 guy and maybe the best player on a miserable team. But I do not see him as a transformational superstar of a Karl Malone or Charles Barkley caliber. His absolute ceiling is a Kevin Love. And Love still needs LeBron to win a championship. Whereas LeBron does not need Love to win a championship.

I see any one of the Cade-Suggs-Mobley trio as a transformational superstar, so I think anything that increases our chances of getting one of them must be done. Marcus Morris is also an awesome player, but we did well by trading him for a late first rounder.

Papabear Says

Sure they win championships with LeBron but in the books they need to put an asterisk next to the team because when a group of superstars all make a plan to play on the same team just to win a championship should be illegal.

+1k LBJ screwed the nba with stars wanting to team up never happened before because everyone wanted to be the best not join the best...

It’s gotta burn LBJ that he couldn’t do it on his own

? He carried that CLE team

BTW -- I dislike Labronna just because, but I would never not give him the credit. He is the one guy who make the Super Friends concept work. Notwithstanding KD joining an in place champion, no one else has brought it to the Promised Land, much less multiple times.

KnickDanger wrote:So we give Randle more credit then trade him -- got it.

BTW -- I dislike Labronna just because, but I would never not give him the credit. He is the one guy who make the Super Friends concept work. Notwithstanding KD joining an in place champion, no one else has brought it to the Promised Land, much less multiple times.

Welpee wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:So we give Randle more credit then trade him -- got it.

BTW -- I dislike Labronna just because, but I would never not give him the credit. He is the one guy who make the Super Friends concept work. Notwithstanding KD joining an in place champion, no one else has brought it to the Promised Land, much less multiple times.

Because nobody else has as aggressively chased setting up super teams to play with to help build his legacy. Of course you ultimately have to get it done on the court, but has there ever been another player who tried to personally stack the odds in his favor to win rings to the level that Lebron has?

Only KD, signing with an already championship roster.

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Papabear wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think randle is in the best shape of his life and it’s showing...also I think we finally have a great coaching staff that puts players in there comfort zones for success.

No way should we trade randle if he keeps playing this good, he’s playing like a super star something we’ve been needing for years

If he keeps up this level of play he is worth way more than a FRP. This year he is said to display leadership qualities and that's worth more to this team than another FRP

Randle is a 20-10 guy and maybe the best player on a miserable team. But I do not see him as a transformational superstar of a Karl Malone or Charles Barkley caliber. His absolute ceiling is a Kevin Love. And Love still needs LeBron to win a championship. Whereas LeBron does not need Love to win a championship.

I see any one of the Cade-Suggs-Mobley trio as a transformational superstar, so I think anything that increases our chances of getting one of them must be done. Marcus Morris is also an awesome player, but we did well by trading him for a late first rounder.

Papabear Says

Sure they win championships with LeBron but in the books they need to put an asterisk next to the team because when a group of superstars all make a plan to play on the same team just to win a championship should be illegal.

+1k LBJ screwed the nba with stars wanting to team up never happened before because everyone wanted to be the best not join the best...

It’s gotta burn LBJ that he couldn’t do it on his own

? He carried that CLE team

Yeah, but Lebron doesn't even come to Cleveland without Kyrie (22 year old, two time all-star) already being there and knowing they would flip that #1 pick (Wiggins) for a guy who was 2nd team all-NBA who just posted 26.1 ppg, 12.5 rebs, 4.4 assists (Kevin Love).

Exactly, he failed his first time in cle on his own and only went back knowing Kyrie and love were there waiting . Another super team. Then goes to LA and can’t even make the playoffs in his first year then wins a chip with arguably the best player on earth right now in AD the next.

LBJ has never been able to carry a team like Jordan. He shouldn’t even be in the conversation of who’s best. You might be able to argue he’s as good as magic but Jordan is at a whole different level of talent then the rest and it’s not even close

Welpee wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:So we give Randle more credit then trade him -- got it.

BTW -- I dislike Labronna just because, but I would never not give him the credit. He is the one guy who make the Super Friends concept work. Notwithstanding KD joining an in place champion, no one else has brought it to the Promised Land, much less multiple times.

Because nobody else has as aggressively chased setting up super teams to play with to help build his legacy. Of course you ultimately have to get it done on the court, but has there ever been another player who tried to personally stack the odds in his favor to win rings to the level that Lebron has?

Well of course lebron is the "king" of such a thing. And along with his divaness the reason I don't care for him. But I was thinking of Kahwi and Paul George with the Clippers, Westbrook and Harden with the Rockets, and now KD and Kyrie with the Nyets (to be revealed). Anyway my major point -- lebron has pulled it off. I don't like it either.

fitzfarm wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Papabear wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think randle is in the best shape of his life and it’s showing...also I think we finally have a great coaching staff that puts players in there comfort zones for success.

No way should we trade randle if he keeps playing this good, he’s playing like a super star something we’ve been needing for years

If he keeps up this level of play he is worth way more than a FRP. This year he is said to display leadership qualities and that's worth more to this team than another FRP

Randle is a 20-10 guy and maybe the best player on a miserable team. But I do not see him as a transformational superstar of a Karl Malone or Charles Barkley caliber. His absolute ceiling is a Kevin Love. And Love still needs LeBron to win a championship. Whereas LeBron does not need Love to win a championship.

I see any one of the Cade-Suggs-Mobley trio as a transformational superstar, so I think anything that increases our chances of getting one of them must be done. Marcus Morris is also an awesome player, but we did well by trading him for a late first rounder.

Papabear Says

Sure they win championships with LeBron but in the books they need to put an asterisk next to the team because when a group of superstars all make a plan to play on the same team just to win a championship should be illegal.

+1k LBJ screwed the nba with stars wanting to team up never happened before because everyone wanted to be the best not join the best...

It’s gotta burn LBJ that he couldn’t do it on his own

? He carried that CLE team

Yeah, but Lebron doesn't even come to Cleveland without Kyrie (22 year old, two time all-star) already being there and knowing they would flip that #1 pick (Wiggins) for a guy who was 2nd team all-NBA who just posted 26.1 ppg, 12.5 rebs, 4.4 assists (Kevin Love).

Exactly, he failed his first time in cle on his own and only went back knowing Kyrie and love were there waiting . Another super team. Then goes to LA and can’t even make the playoffs in his first year then wins a chip with arguably the best player on earth right now in AD the next.

LBJ has never been able to carry a team like Jordan. He shouldn’t even be in the conversation of who’s best. You might be able to argue he’s as good as magic but Jordan is at a whole different level of talent then the rest and it’s not even close

And there in lies the truth. I’ll make it easier for you to digest.

Lebron been to 10 finals. Jordan not.
Bill Russell won 11 rings in 13 years.
Jabbar got 5. Alltime leading scorer.
Lebron has 4 chips. No asterisks. These are different eras. Hard to keep a team together than back in the day.
If Lebron gets to 5, and exceeds Kareem there gets to be a different narrative.
Lebron went to a laker team that did not make the playoffs his first year. AD was traded for.
Gotta give credit due.
Jordan is a the best player ever. Russell is the chip leader. Jordan had a great HOF side kick in his 6 chip run and what turned to be a genius coach. Lebron has won with three different coaches.
Jordan had HOF Dennis Rodman for 3. Horace Grant was underrated.
Lebron vs Jordan? Jordan is the GOAT but Lebron might have had a better career. He played longer matter? Yes, it is an achievement not just physical, but mental fortitude. Trips to finals are to be applauded. one can say “Jordan only went to 6 finals?” Jordan succeeded in an era diluted of expansion? I have read this. Hand checking? Big men Era? Its all impressionable and debatable.
Lebrons success does not tarnish Jordans achievements.

fitzfarm wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Papabear wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think randle is in the best shape of his life and it’s showing...also I think we finally have a great coaching staff that puts players in there comfort zones for success.

No way should we trade randle if he keeps playing this good, he’s playing like a super star something we’ve been needing for years

If he keeps up this level of play he is worth way more than a FRP. This year he is said to display leadership qualities and that's worth more to this team than another FRP

Randle is a 20-10 guy and maybe the best player on a miserable team. But I do not see him as a transformational superstar of a Karl Malone or Charles Barkley caliber. His absolute ceiling is a Kevin Love. And Love still needs LeBron to win a championship. Whereas LeBron does not need Love to win a championship.

I see any one of the Cade-Suggs-Mobley trio as a transformational superstar, so I think anything that increases our chances of getting one of them must be done. Marcus Morris is also an awesome player, but we did well by trading him for a late first rounder.

Papabear Says

Sure they win championships with LeBron but in the books they need to put an asterisk next to the team because when a group of superstars all make a plan to play on the same team just to win a championship should be illegal.

+1k LBJ screwed the nba with stars wanting to team up never happened before because everyone wanted to be the best not join the best...

It’s gotta burn LBJ that he couldn’t do it on his own

? He carried that CLE team

Yeah, but Lebron doesn't even come to Cleveland without Kyrie (22 year old, two time all-star) already being there and knowing they would flip that #1 pick (Wiggins) for a guy who was 2nd team all-NBA who just posted 26.1 ppg, 12.5 rebs, 4.4 assists (Kevin Love).

Exactly, he failed his first time in cle on his own and only went back knowing Kyrie and love were there waiting . Another super team. Then goes to LA and can’t even make the playoffs in his first year then wins a chip with arguably the best player on earth right now in AD the next.

LBJ has never been able to carry a team like Jordan. He shouldn’t even be in the conversation of who’s best. You might be able to argue he’s as good as magic but Jordan is at a whole different level of talent then the rest and it’s not even close

Lebron didn't fail on his own...his front office failed to place z championship roster. Keep in mind, McHale and Ainge colluded with the KG trade to form the original big 3. Lebron wasn't beating Boston with Mo Williams as his 2nd option. Why stay in Cleveland with an inept front office creatong your narrative when you can create your own narrative as a free agent?

And let's not pretend that star players didn't force trades so they could win a chip. Wilt did it. Oscar Robertson was traded to Bucks so he could win a chip with Kareem. Barkley did it, etc.

Nalod wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Papabear wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think randle is in the best shape of his life and it’s showing...also I think we finally have a great coaching staff that puts players in there comfort zones for success.

No way should we trade randle if he keeps playing this good, he’s playing like a super star something we’ve been needing for years

If he keeps up this level of play he is worth way more than a FRP. This year he is said to display leadership qualities and that's worth more to this team than another FRP

Randle is a 20-10 guy and maybe the best player on a miserable team. But I do not see him as a transformational superstar of a Karl Malone or Charles Barkley caliber. His absolute ceiling is a Kevin Love. And Love still needs LeBron to win a championship. Whereas LeBron does not need Love to win a championship.

I see any one of the Cade-Suggs-Mobley trio as a transformational superstar, so I think anything that increases our chances of getting one of them must be done. Marcus Morris is also an awesome player, but we did well by trading him for a late first rounder.

Papabear Says

Sure they win championships with LeBron but in the books they need to put an asterisk next to the team because when a group of superstars all make a plan to play on the same team just to win a championship should be illegal.

+1k LBJ screwed the nba with stars wanting to team up never happened before because everyone wanted to be the best not join the best...

It’s gotta burn LBJ that he couldn’t do it on his own

? He carried that CLE team

Yeah, but Lebron doesn't even come to Cleveland without Kyrie (22 year old, two time all-star) already being there and knowing they would flip that #1 pick (Wiggins) for a guy who was 2nd team all-NBA who just posted 26.1 ppg, 12.5 rebs, 4.4 assists (Kevin Love).

Exactly, he failed his first time in cle on his own and only went back knowing Kyrie and love were there waiting . Another super team. Then goes to LA and can’t even make the playoffs in his first year then wins a chip with arguably the best player on earth right now in AD the next.

LBJ has never been able to carry a team like Jordan. He shouldn’t even be in the conversation of who’s best. You might be able to argue he’s as good as magic but Jordan is at a whole different level of talent then the rest and it’s not even close

And there in lies the truth. I’ll make it easier for you to digest.

Lebron been to 10 finals. Jordan not.
Bill Russell won 11 rings in 13 years.
Jabbar got 5. Alltime leading scorer.
Lebron has 4 chips. No asterisks. These are different eras. Hard to keep a team together than back in the day.
If Lebron gets to 5, and exceeds Kareem there gets to be a different narrative.
Lebron went to a laker team that did not make the playoffs his first year. AD was traded for.
Gotta give credit due.
Jordan is a the best player ever. Russell is the chip leader. Jordan had a great HOF side kick in his 6 chip run and what turned to be a genius coach. Lebron has won with three different coaches.
Jordan had HOF Dennis Rodman for 3. Horace Grant was underrated.
Lebron vs Jordan? Jordan is the GOAT but Lebron might have had a better career. He played longer matter? Yes, it is an achievement not just physical, but mental fortitude. Trips to finals are to be applauded. one can say “Jordan only went to 6 finals?” Jordan succeeded in an era diluted of expansion? I have read this. Hand checking? Big men Era? Its all impressionable and debatable.
Lebrons success does not tarnish Jordans achievements.

To add to that...Jordan and Kobe won all of their chips with perhaps the greatest coach of all time. Lebron win a chip with Ty Lue and Frank Vogel...

Uptown wrote:And let's not pretend that star players didn't force trades so they could win a chip. Wilt did it. Oscar Robertson was traded to Bucks so he could win a chip with Kareem. Barkley did it, etc.

I'm also not sure Wilt was chasing a ring either. He told the Sixers wanted to play for a west coast team. He initially demanded a trade to Seattle, San Diego or the Lakers or he would jump to the ABA and play in L.A. I don't think San Diego or Seattle at the time were considered championship contenders.

Barkley definitely wanted to land in a place where he could win since he was convinced that wouldn't happen in Philly.

I have a hard time coming up with stars from back in the day who initiated a trade (while in their prime) to chase a ring. Karl Malone and Gary Payton did it but they were at the end of their careers. Maybe Drexler, though he was certainly at the end of his prime. Garnett maybe? But I can't think of many stars from back in the day who were considered in the top 5 or 10 in the league who were firmly in their prime who forced a trade to chase a ring.

Nalod wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Papabear wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think randle is in the best shape of his life and it’s showing...also I think we finally have a great coaching staff that puts players in there comfort zones for success.

No way should we trade randle if he keeps playing this good, he’s playing like a super star something we’ve been needing for years

If he keeps up this level of play he is worth way more than a FRP. This year he is said to display leadership qualities and that's worth more to this team than another FRP

Randle is a 20-10 guy and maybe the best player on a miserable team. But I do not see him as a transformational superstar of a Karl Malone or Charles Barkley caliber. His absolute ceiling is a Kevin Love. And Love still needs LeBron to win a championship. Whereas LeBron does not need Love to win a championship.

I see any one of the Cade-Suggs-Mobley trio as a transformational superstar, so I think anything that increases our chances of getting one of them must be done. Marcus Morris is also an awesome player, but we did well by trading him for a late first rounder.

Papabear Says

Sure they win championships with LeBron but in the books they need to put an asterisk next to the team because when a group of superstars all make a plan to play on the same team just to win a championship should be illegal.

+1k LBJ screwed the nba with stars wanting to team up never happened before because everyone wanted to be the best not join the best...

It’s gotta burn LBJ that he couldn’t do it on his own

? He carried that CLE team

Yeah, but Lebron doesn't even come to Cleveland without Kyrie (22 year old, two time all-star) already being there and knowing they would flip that #1 pick (Wiggins) for a guy who was 2nd team all-NBA who just posted 26.1 ppg, 12.5 rebs, 4.4 assists (Kevin Love).

Exactly, he failed his first time in cle on his own and only went back knowing Kyrie and love were there waiting . Another super team. Then goes to LA and can’t even make the playoffs in his first year then wins a chip with arguably the best player on earth right now in AD the next.

LBJ has never been able to carry a team like Jordan. He shouldn’t even be in the conversation of who’s best. You might be able to argue he’s as good as magic but Jordan is at a whole different level of talent then the rest and it’s not even close

And there in lies the truth. I’ll make it easier for you to digest.

Lebron been to 10 finals. Jordan not.
Bill Russell won 11 rings in 13 years.
Jabbar got 5. Alltime leading scorer.
Lebron has 4 chips. No asterisks. These are different eras. Hard to keep a team together than back in the day.
If Lebron gets to 5, and exceeds Kareem there gets to be a different narrative.
Lebron went to a laker team that did not make the playoffs his first year. AD was traded for.
Gotta give credit due.
Jordan is a the best player ever. Russell is the chip leader. Jordan had a great HOF side kick in his 6 chip run and what turned to be a genius coach. Lebron has won with three different coaches.
Jordan had HOF Dennis Rodman for 3. Horace Grant was underrated.
Lebron vs Jordan? Jordan is the GOAT but Lebron might have had a better career. He played longer matter? Yes, it is an achievement not just physical, but mental fortitude. Trips to finals are to be applauded. one can say “Jordan only went to 6 finals?” Jordan succeeded in an era diluted of expansion? I have read this. Hand checking? Big men Era? Its all impressionable and debatable.
Lebrons success does not tarnish Jordans achievements.

1)Lebron reportedly had been in contact with AD for a while before the trade happened. So we can't pretend Lebron wasn't working on AD to make that trade happen. No way the Lakers woke up one morning and discovered AD was available.

2)Lebron won three of his four rings playing along side two future hall of famers in their prime (Bosh and Wade in Miami, Irving and Love in Cleveland). Jordan won three of his rings with only one in his prime HOFer (Pippen). And Rodman was great, but he was a wild card and you never knew what you would get from him from day to day (remember when he needed to take a "vacation" in the middle of the season).

3)If you reference the "diluted league" argument with Jordan, then isn't the league even more diluted in Lebron's era?

4)Regarding Lebron having the better career (keeping in mind Lebron is still going):

League MVPs: Jordan 5, Lebron 4
Finals MVPs: Jordan 6, Lebron 4
Led league in scoring: Jordan 10, Lebron 1
Defensive POY: Jordan 1, Lebron 0
All-defense: Jordan 9, Lebron 6
Assist leader: Jordan 0, Lebron 1
All-NBA: Jordan 11, Lebron 16
Rookie of the year: Jordan 1, Lebron 1
Rings: Jordan 6, Lebron 4

Lebron has certainly been great for longer than Jordan. Not sure I would concede he had the better career. I think Jordan did more in fewer years. Hand checking wasn't banned until 1994 so Jordan won three of his rings during the hand checking era. The bigs when Jordan played were much better and more physical than the so-called bigs in the modern era. And when you consider the biggest weakness in Lebron's game is his jump shot, you don't think he greatly benefitted from the freedom to get in the paint unimpeded and with lesser caliber bigs waiting for him once he got in the paint?

Injecting era is tricky because the game constantly changes. Players before Jordan had challenges to deal with that both Jordan and Lebron never faced. So while it's valid, it's probably best to not deal with it. Makes the debate way too complicated.

Sorry for going on a tangent.

Welpee wrote:

Nalod wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Papabear wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think randle is in the best shape of his life and it’s showing...also I think we finally have a great coaching staff that puts players in there comfort zones for success.

No way should we trade randle if he keeps playing this good, he’s playing like a super star something we’ve been needing for years

If he keeps up this level of play he is worth way more than a FRP. This year he is said to display leadership qualities and that's worth more to this team than another FRP

Randle is a 20-10 guy and maybe the best player on a miserable team. But I do not see him as a transformational superstar of a Karl Malone or Charles Barkley caliber. His absolute ceiling is a Kevin Love. And Love still needs LeBron to win a championship. Whereas LeBron does not need Love to win a championship.

I see any one of the Cade-Suggs-Mobley trio as a transformational superstar, so I think anything that increases our chances of getting one of them must be done. Marcus Morris is also an awesome player, but we did well by trading him for a late first rounder.

Papabear Says

Sure they win championships with LeBron but in the books they need to put an asterisk next to the team because when a group of superstars all make a plan to play on the same team just to win a championship should be illegal.

+1k LBJ screwed the nba with stars wanting to team up never happened before because everyone wanted to be the best not join the best...

It’s gotta burn LBJ that he couldn’t do it on his own

? He carried that CLE team

Yeah, but Lebron doesn't even come to Cleveland without Kyrie (22 year old, two time all-star) already being there and knowing they would flip that #1 pick (Wiggins) for a guy who was 2nd team all-NBA who just posted 26.1 ppg, 12.5 rebs, 4.4 assists (Kevin Love).

Exactly, he failed his first time in cle on his own and only went back knowing Kyrie and love were there waiting . Another super team. Then goes to LA and can’t even make the playoffs in his first year then wins a chip with arguably the best player on earth right now in AD the next.

LBJ has never been able to carry a team like Jordan. He shouldn’t even be in the conversation of who’s best. You might be able to argue he’s as good as magic but Jordan is at a whole different level of talent then the rest and it’s not even close

And there in lies the truth. I’ll make it easier for you to digest.

Lebron been to 10 finals. Jordan not.
Bill Russell won 11 rings in 13 years.
Jabbar got 5. Alltime leading scorer.
Lebron has 4 chips. No asterisks. These are different eras. Hard to keep a team together than back in the day.
If Lebron gets to 5, and exceeds Kareem there gets to be a different narrative.
Lebron went to a laker team that did not make the playoffs his first year. AD was traded for.
Gotta give credit due.
Jordan is a the best player ever. Russell is the chip leader. Jordan had a great HOF side kick in his 6 chip run and what turned to be a genius coach. Lebron has won with three different coaches.
Jordan had HOF Dennis Rodman for 3. Horace Grant was underrated.
Lebron vs Jordan? Jordan is the GOAT but Lebron might have had a better career. He played longer matter? Yes, it is an achievement not just physical, but mental fortitude. Trips to finals are to be applauded. one can say “Jordan only went to 6 finals?” Jordan succeeded in an era diluted of expansion? I have read this. Hand checking? Big men Era? Its all impressionable and debatable.
Lebrons success does not tarnish Jordans achievements.

I would counter with the following:

1)Lebron reportedly had been in contact with AD for a while before the trade happened. So we can't pretend Lebron wasn't working on AD to make that trade happen. No way the Lakers woke up one morning and discovered AD was available.

2)Lebron won three of his four rings playing along side two future hall of famers in their prime (Bosh and Wade in Miami, Irving and Love in Cleveland). Jordan won three of his rings with only one in his prime HOFer (Pippen). And Rodman was great, but he was a wild card and you never knew what you would get from him from day to day (remember when he needed to take a "vacation" in the middle of the season).

3)If you reference the "diluted league" argument with Jordan, then isn't the league even more diluted in Lebron's era?

4)Regarding Lebron having the better career (keeping in mind Lebron is still going):

League MVPs: Jordan 5, Lebron 4
Finals MVPs: Jordan 6, Lebron 4
Led league in scoring: Jordan 10, Lebron 1
Defensive POY: Jordan 1, Lebron 0
All-defense: Jordan 9, Lebron 6
Assist leader: Jordan 0, Lebron 1
All-NBA: Jordan 11, Lebron 16
Rookie of the year: Jordan 1, Lebron 1
Rings: Jordan 6, Lebron 4

Lebron has certainly been great for longer than Jordan. Not sure I would concede he had the better career. I think Jordan did more in fewer years. Hand checking wasn't banned until 1994 so Jordan won three of his rings during the hand checking era. The bigs when Jordan played were much better and more physical than the so-called bigs in the modern era. And when you consider the biggest weakness in Lebron's game is his jump shot, you don't think he greatly benefitted from the freedom to get in the paint unimpeded and with lesser caliber bigs waiting for him once he got in the paint?

Injecting era is tricky because the game constantly changes. Players before Jordan had challenges to deal with that both Jordan and Lebron never faced. So while it's valid, it's probably best to not deal with it. Makes the debate way too complicated.

Sorry for going on a tangent.

100% agree

martin wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Papabear wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think randle is in the best shape of his life and it’s showing...also I think we finally have a great coaching staff that puts players in there comfort zones for success.

No way should we trade randle if he keeps playing this good, he’s playing like a super star something we’ve been needing for years

If he keeps up this level of play he is worth way more than a FRP. This year he is said to display leadership qualities and that's worth more to this team than another FRP

Randle is a 20-10 guy and maybe the best player on a miserable team. But I do not see him as a transformational superstar of a Karl Malone or Charles Barkley caliber. His absolute ceiling is a Kevin Love. And Love still needs LeBron to win a championship. Whereas LeBron does not need Love to win a championship.

I see any one of the Cade-Suggs-Mobley trio as a transformational superstar, so I think anything that increases our chances of getting one of them must be done. Marcus Morris is also an awesome player, but we did well by trading him for a late first rounder.

Papabear Says

Sure they win championships with LeBron but in the books they need to put an asterisk next to the team because when a group of superstars all make a plan to play on the same team just to win a championship should be illegal.

+1k LBJ screwed the nba with stars wanting to team up never happened before because everyone wanted to be the best not join the best...

It’s gotta burn LBJ that he couldn’t do it on his own

? He carried that CLE team

Kyrie did a lot of the work. He also made sure Love was there too. Not that Love got on well with them.

When he went to LA without anyone they blew donkey balls.

KnickDanger wrote:So we give Randle more credit then trade him -- got it.

BTW -- I dislike Labronna just because, but I would never not give him the credit. He is the one guy who make the Super Friends concept work. Notwithstanding KD joining an in place champion, no one else has brought it to the Promised Land, much less multiple times.

His superfriends concept was reactionary to the Celtics’ Pierce/Garnett/Allen. Thing is, the Celts front office deserved credit for those moves. Lebron’s teams manipulated salaries to play together. Completely within their rights to do that under this salary cap, but still has a collusive feel to it that rubs me wrong.

EwingsGlass wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:So we give Randle more credit then trade him -- got it.

BTW -- I dislike Labronna just because, but I would never not give him the credit. He is the one guy who make the Super Friends concept work. Notwithstanding KD joining an in place champion, no one else has brought it to the Promised Land, much less multiple times.

His superfriends concept was reactionary to the Celtics’ Pierce/Garnett/Allen. Thing is, the Celts front office deserved credit for those moves. Lebron’s teams manipulated salaries to play together. Completely within their rights to do that under this salary cap, but still has a collusive feel to it that rubs me wrong.

Just the concept of the league's best player (in his prime) running around chasing behind other stars to team with to collect rings makes it uncomfortable to call him the GOAT.