Knicks · I'm not a long term buyer of RJ's high level potential/talent (page 13)
Vmart wrote:There is nothing wrong with RJ. It’s the Knicks they suck and they can’t keep a team together to save their lives. They always shoot themselves in the foot by adding players that thwart player development. All they had to do was keep the team together from last year and grow as a unit. They wonder why players regress in their developmental process.
LOL for the most part they did
BRIGGS wrote:Martin is on to something here
It's still early and RJ went through this last year too, so there is that.
But, someone who understands shooting better than me help me understand why it looks like RJ has to think about every little nuanced thing about shooting while he is doing it? I very much understand players going thru the motion of shooting FT's but it looks like RJ has to do it literally every time he shoots a jumper. It's just not a natural thing for him to do. I just don't get it.
He is not a natural scorer. He is not a natural or even good passer IMHO. He can play OK defense but nothing stands out for me (I mean he has had a few games sprinkled in but nothing consistent across the board).
He is a hard worker? The top half of the NBA are all pretty hard workers?
RJ was blessed with a super strong body and dominated smaller, younger players throughout his pre-NBA career. It has not yet translated and gone along with the other talents that are needed to be a high level player; it's hard for me to see and project out.
Rookie wrote:RJ’s numbers are approaching scrub level. Our coach was calling out his commitment to getting in the gym to focus on improving. This is not a good look for RJ. This could be his wake up call, but we’re a quarter into the season so it’s probably already to late for him to improve his shooting.
Thibs obviously did that purposely and it's quite shocking IMHO.
I have high regard for Thibs and his work ethic and the way he communicates as far as any fan can be able to.
For me, the players are the ones that are not performing up to what they could nor are they putting in the effort.
martin wrote:Vmart wrote:There is nothing wrong with RJ. It’s the Knicks they suck and they can’t keep a team together to save their lives. They always shoot themselves in the foot by adding players that thwart player development. All they had to do was keep the team together from last year and grow as a unit. They wonder why players regress in their developmental process.LOL for the most part they did
They added two players who had nothing to do with their 4th seed. On top of it they gave them the starting job. They lost Payton, Bullock and Frank. They were essentially your better defensive players. Not to mention regardless of what people think Payton and Randle work well together. You added a player in Kemba who is one of the worst defensive players. Fournier is an okay player but I wouldn’t say he is great defensively. You basically changed 40% of your starting lineup and they are essentially the same. Even one piece change can lead to a team falling apart.
martin wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Martin is on to something hereIt's still early and RJ went through this last year too, so there is that.
But, someone who understands shooting better than me help me understand why it looks like RJ has to think about every little nuanced thing about shooting while he is doing it? I very much understand players going thru the motion of shooting FT's but it looks like RJ has to do it literally every time he shoots a jumper. It's just not a natural thing for him to do. I just don't get it.
He is not a natural scorer. He is not a natural or even good passer IMHO. He can play OK defense but nothing stands out for me (I mean he has had a few games sprinkled in but nothing consistent across the board).
He is a hard worker? The top half of the NBA are all pretty hard workers?
RJ was blessed with a super strong body and dominated smaller, younger players throughout his pre-NBA career. It has not yet translated and gone along with the other talents that are needed to be a high level player; it's hard for me to see and project out.
Martin - can't argue about RJ if he's not putting in the work - he needs to keep that up to improve! I have no evidence or factual info why he's actually regressed this season but I suspect that the offseason additions really cramped his style as he was the 1st option of leftovers after Randle last year. This season he's had to split what's left with Fournier and Kemba while Randle continues to operate like last season (although less effectively) and I suspect he's not happy - especially since we're performing worse. Bullock was the spot up guy and while last season RJ was more effective spotting up - this year Fournier (who doesn't like to spot up) and Kemba (same) mean that you can't have 3 guys all wanting to handle the ball when Randle is holding the ball/ISOing and clogging the paint at times. Not enough room. That's still no excuse for RJ not working harder on this outside shooting - just my guess as to what might be contributing to his worsened performance this year.
I acknowledge I'm biased but really believe moving Randle opens up so many opportunities for the rest of the roster. Yes we would initially regress but we undoubtedly need to play faster, with more ball movement. ISO ball is mostly a thing of the past IMO. Whoever dominates the ball needs to have excellent court vision (Luka, Lebron).
Vmart wrote:martin wrote:Vmart wrote:There is nothing wrong with RJ. It’s the Knicks they suck and they can’t keep a team together to save their lives. They always shoot themselves in the foot by adding players that thwart player development. All they had to do was keep the team together from last year and grow as a unit. They wonder why players regress in their developmental process.LOL for the most part they did
They added two players who had nothing to do with their 4th seed. On top of it they gave them the starting job. They lost Payton, Bullock and Frank. They were essentially your better defensive players. Not to mention regardless of what people think Payton and Randle work well together. You added a player in Kemba who is one of the worst defensive players. Fournier is an okay player but I wouldn’t say he is great defensively. You basically changed 40% of your starting lineup and they are essentially the same. Even one piece change can lead to a team falling apart.
It's a new backcourt and as we know, backcourt players is where it's at nowadays. The days of imposing centers have been over for a while. We used to recover to shooters much better, not to mention that our one on one ball D in the backcourt was different. Our centers had to go for weak side blocks less. Now we give up penetration like it's going out of style and with our starting center playing in lead shoes because if the added weight our D is poop
Vmart wrote:martin wrote:Vmart wrote:There is nothing wrong with RJ. It’s the Knicks they suck and they can’t keep a team together to save their lives. They always shoot themselves in the foot by adding players that thwart player development. All they had to do was keep the team together from last year and grow as a unit. They wonder why players regress in their developmental process.LOL for the most part they did
They added two players who had nothing to do with their 4th seed. On top of it they gave them the starting job. They lost Payton, Bullock and Frank. They were essentially your better defensive players. Not to mention regardless of what people think Payton and Randle work well together. You added a player in Kemba who is one of the worst defensive players. Fournier is an okay player but I wouldn’t say he is great defensively. You basically changed 40% of your starting lineup and they are essentially the same. Even one piece change can lead to a team falling apart.
elf and Frank played a grand total of 16 mins in the playoffs. During the regular season, we were under .500 until we traded for Rose. When we got hot down the stretch of the season, elf was barely getting 20 mins per, wasn't playing in the 4th Q. And Frank was collecting multiple DNPs sitting next to Knox. The team that lost to the Hawks looked more like an 8th seed than a 4th seed.
Speaking of the players you want to grow with:
Bullock is averaging 5 pts per and shooting 27% from 3.
elf is sitting at the end of the bench playing flip the water bottle with the towel boy each night.
And Frank is back to playing every 5th game in Dallas.
In sum, we let a third string pg, a situational bench player and a streaky shooting 8th or 9th man walk this summer...Wasn't much growing to be done with that group.
Uptown wrote:Vmart wrote:martin wrote:Vmart wrote:There is nothing wrong with RJ. It’s the Knicks they suck and they can’t keep a team together to save their lives. They always shoot themselves in the foot by adding players that thwart player development. All they had to do was keep the team together from last year and grow as a unit. They wonder why players regress in their developmental process.LOL for the most part they did
They added two players who had nothing to do with their 4th seed. On top of it they gave them the starting job. They lost Payton, Bullock and Frank. They were essentially your better defensive players. Not to mention regardless of what people think Payton and Randle work well together. You added a player in Kemba who is one of the worst defensive players. Fournier is an okay player but I wouldn’t say he is great defensively. You basically changed 40% of your starting lineup and they are essentially the same. Even one piece change can lead to a team falling apart.
elf and Frank played a grand total of 16 mins in the playoffs. During the regular season, we were under .500 until we traded for Rose. When we got hot down the stretch of the season, elf was barely getting 20 mins per, wasn't playing in the 4th Q. And Frank was collecting multiple DNPs sitting next to Knox. The team that lost to the Hawks looked more like an 8th seed than a 4th seed.
Speaking of the players you want to grow with:
Bullock is averaging 5 pts per and shooting 27% from 3.
elf is sitting at the end of the bench playing spin the bottle with the towel boy each night.
And Frank is back to playing every 5th game in Dallas.In sum, we let a third string pg, a situational bench player and a streaky shooting 8th or 9th man walk this summer...Wasn't much growing to be done with that group.
Why does no one acknowledge synergy, Bullock, Payton and Frank may not be performing well especially Bullock but he fit well with the Knicks. those players may not be performing well but they were part of the 4 th seeded Knicks.
Vmart wrote:Why does no one acknowledge synergy, Bullock, Payton and Frank may not be performing well especially Bullock but he fit well with the Knicks. those players may not be performing well but they were part of the 4 th seeded Knicks.
The 4th seeded Knikcs last year were a fluke. This year we are seeing a reversion to the mean. Which for us is borderline playoffs mediocrity of a team.
Vmart wrote:Why does no one acknowledge synergy, Bullock, Payton and Frank may not be performing well especially Bullock but he fit well with the Knicks. those players may not be performing well but they were part of the 4 th seeded Knicks.
Because it's disingenuous to the larger picture of things and kinda obvious to the point of irrelevance?
And if you are being honest, Frank was not a part of it really, so I don't know why one would include his name on the list.
And pretty much everyone and their grandma who doesn't even watch the Knicks KNEW the Knicks were going to 100% move on from Elf, so who cares about him.
And the rest of grandma's friends knew the Knicks were severely limited with Bullock as a starter as seen by the Atlanta series and had FA choices to make and that Bullock would be an unfortunate candidate.
The question remains why you aren't moving on from a moot point?
Vmart wrote:Uptown wrote:Vmart wrote:martin wrote:Vmart wrote:There is nothing wrong with RJ. It’s the Knicks they suck and they can’t keep a team together to save their lives. They always shoot themselves in the foot by adding players that thwart player development. All they had to do was keep the team together from last year and grow as a unit. They wonder why players regress in their developmental process.LOL for the most part they did
They added two players who had nothing to do with their 4th seed. On top of it they gave them the starting job. They lost Payton, Bullock and Frank. They were essentially your better defensive players. Not to mention regardless of what people think Payton and Randle work well together. You added a player in Kemba who is one of the worst defensive players. Fournier is an okay player but I wouldn’t say he is great defensively. You basically changed 40% of your starting lineup and they are essentially the same. Even one piece change can lead to a team falling apart.
elf and Frank played a grand total of 16 mins in the playoffs. During the regular season, we were under .500 until we traded for Rose. When we got hot down the stretch of the season, elf was barely getting 20 mins per, wasn't playing in the 4th Q. And Frank was collecting multiple DNPs sitting next to Knox. The team that lost to the Hawks looked more like an 8th seed than a 4th seed.
Speaking of the players you want to grow with:
Bullock is averaging 5 pts per and shooting 27% from 3.
elf is sitting at the end of the bench playing spin the bottle with the towel boy each night.
And Frank is back to playing every 5th game in Dallas.In sum, we let a third string pg, a situational bench player and a streaky shooting 8th or 9th man walk this summer...Wasn't much growing to be done with that group.
Why does no one acknowledge synergy, Bullock, Payton and Frank may not be performing well especially Bullock but he fit well with the Knicks. those players may not be performing well but they were part of the 4 th seeded Knicks.
Probably the same reason you are not acknowledging that last year was an abnormal year. No fans, multiple teams dealing with covid issue where players were in out of the line up, (We didn't have any major covid issues), Toronto got displaced, Teams in the bubble that advanced didn't get their normal off season rest, etc....It was a weird year for most. Randle had a career year (during the regular season but looked like his normal 2019 self in the playoffs).
Also, some of the teams that finished behind us in the standings last year, have improved and or got healthier. The Bulls, Heat, Cavs, Hornets, Wizards, etc.
So is elf's 20 mins per and Bullocks absent the reason why Randle and RJ has regressed? Reggie not shooting well because he's not playing alongside Randle? Randle not playing D like he did last year because he needs Frank to motivate him?
ESOMKnicks wrote:Vmart wrote:Why does no one acknowledge synergy, Bullock, Payton and Frank may not be performing well especially Bullock but he fit well with the Knicks. those players may not be performing well but they were part of the 4 th seeded Knicks.The 4th seeded Knikcs last year were a fluke. This year we are seeing a reversion to the mean. Which for us is borderline playoffs mediocrity of a team.
That’s the thing. Last season was a very wierd year and too many Knicks fans had outrageous expectations based on it
There were no fans in the arenas on road games, 2/3 of the nba rosters were still gassed from playing in that lame bubble tourney that only existed to appease Lebron and covid was everywhere and most of the league didn’t even have access to a vaccine for a big chunk of the season
Last year’s roster this year is a .500 team. We are finishing .500 with a slightly improved roster
Uptown wrote:Vmart wrote:Uptown wrote:Vmart wrote:martin wrote:Vmart wrote:There is nothing wrong with RJ. It’s the Knicks they suck and they can’t keep a team together to save their lives. They always shoot themselves in the foot by adding players that thwart player development. All they had to do was keep the team together from last year and grow as a unit. They wonder why players regress in their developmental process.LOL for the most part they did
They added two players who had nothing to do with their 4th seed. On top of it they gave them the starting job. They lost Payton, Bullock and Frank. They were essentially your better defensive players. Not to mention regardless of what people think Payton and Randle work well together. You added a player in Kemba who is one of the worst defensive players. Fournier is an okay player but I wouldn’t say he is great defensively. You basically changed 40% of your starting lineup and they are essentially the same. Even one piece change can lead to a team falling apart.
elf and Frank played a grand total of 16 mins in the playoffs. During the regular season, we were under .500 until we traded for Rose. When we got hot down the stretch of the season, elf was barely getting 20 mins per, wasn't playing in the 4th Q. And Frank was collecting multiple DNPs sitting next to Knox. The team that lost to the Hawks looked more like an 8th seed than a 4th seed.
Speaking of the players you want to grow with:
Bullock is averaging 5 pts per and shooting 27% from 3.
elf is sitting at the end of the bench playing spin the bottle with the towel boy each night.
And Frank is back to playing every 5th game in Dallas.In sum, we let a third string pg, a situational bench player and a streaky shooting 8th or 9th man walk this summer...Wasn't much growing to be done with that group.
Why does no one acknowledge synergy, Bullock, Payton and Frank may not be performing well especially Bullock but he fit well with the Knicks. those players may not be performing well but they were part of the 4 th seeded Knicks.
Probably the same reason you are not acknowledging that last year was an abnormal year. No fans, multiple teams dealing with covid issue where players were in out of the line up, (We didn't have any major covid issues), Toronto got displaced, Teams in the bubble that advanced didn't get their normal off season rest, etc....It was a weird year for most. Randle had a career year (during the regular season but looked like his normal 2019 self in the playoffs).
Also, some of the teams that finished behind us in the standings last year, have improved and or got healthier. The Bulls, Heat, Cavs, Hornets, Wizards, etc.
So is elf's 20 mins per and Bullocks absent the reason why Randle and RJ has regressed? Reggie not shooting well because he's not playing alongside Randle? Randle not playing D like he did last year because he needs Frank to motivate him?
Randle is acting like 90% of players once they get their big contract. They usually regress a little at least their first season
I am worried about RJ. He doesn’t look happy. I can see the Knicks doing something really stupid like trading him in about a year from now and watch him become all world somewhere else
Vmart wrote:Why does no one acknowledge synergy, Bullock, Payton and Frank may not be performing well especially Bullock but he fit well with the Knicks. those players may not be performing well but they were part of the 4 th seeded Knicks.
Synergy and Frank the 0-0-0 machine in the same sentence. LMAO.
Bigger question is why do you not acknowledge the synergism of Theo Pinson?
Philc1 wrote:Uptown wrote:Vmart wrote:Uptown wrote:Vmart wrote:martin wrote:Vmart wrote:There is nothing wrong with RJ. It’s the Knicks they suck and they can’t keep a team together to save their lives. They always shoot themselves in the foot by adding players that thwart player development. All they had to do was keep the team together from last year and grow as a unit. They wonder why players regress in their developmental process.LOL for the most part they did
They added two players who had nothing to do with their 4th seed. On top of it they gave them the starting job. They lost Payton, Bullock and Frank. They were essentially your better defensive players. Not to mention regardless of what people think Payton and Randle work well together. You added a player in Kemba who is one of the worst defensive players. Fournier is an okay player but I wouldn’t say he is great defensively. You basically changed 40% of your starting lineup and they are essentially the same. Even one piece change can lead to a team falling apart.
elf and Frank played a grand total of 16 mins in the playoffs. During the regular season, we were under .500 until we traded for Rose. When we got hot down the stretch of the season, elf was barely getting 20 mins per, wasn't playing in the 4th Q. And Frank was collecting multiple DNPs sitting next to Knox. The team that lost to the Hawks looked more like an 8th seed than a 4th seed.
Speaking of the players you want to grow with:
Bullock is averaging 5 pts per and shooting 27% from 3.
elf is sitting at the end of the bench playing spin the bottle with the towel boy each night.
And Frank is back to playing every 5th game in Dallas.In sum, we let a third string pg, a situational bench player and a streaky shooting 8th or 9th man walk this summer...Wasn't much growing to be done with that group.
Why does no one acknowledge synergy, Bullock, Payton and Frank may not be performing well especially Bullock but he fit well with the Knicks. those players may not be performing well but they were part of the 4 th seeded Knicks.
Probably the same reason you are not acknowledging that last year was an abnormal year. No fans, multiple teams dealing with covid issue where players were in out of the line up, (We didn't have any major covid issues), Toronto got displaced, Teams in the bubble that advanced didn't get their normal off season rest, etc....It was a weird year for most. Randle had a career year (during the regular season but looked like his normal 2019 self in the playoffs).
Also, some of the teams that finished behind us in the standings last year, have improved and or got healthier. The Bulls, Heat, Cavs, Hornets, Wizards, etc.
So is elf's 20 mins per and Bullocks absent the reason why Randle and RJ has regressed? Reggie not shooting well because he's not playing alongside Randle? Randle not playing D like he did last year because he needs Frank to motivate him?
Randle is acting like 90% of players once they get their big contract. They usually regress a little at least their first season
I am worried about RJ. He doesn’t look happy. I can see the Knicks doing something really stupid like trading him in about a year from now and watch him become all world somewhere else
who around Randle is playing up to par?
Who should the opposing team focus on other than Randle.... RJ, Fournier, Mitch, Kemba/Burks....which one of those guys draws double teams, or do you even have to defend them tight.
You shouldn't care who they trade as long as it makes the team better..
Who gives fck if RJ turns into a all star, there's been plenty of those on losing teams
Beer does a good job but often he is leading.
Thibs intimated that RJ has been sick. The quote by itself suggests RJ is slacking.
Listen to the bit and then think. To me it suggested he has not been able to practice.
Did not get that he was “calling him out”.
Anyone else get that or am I drinking the maple flavored Kool Aid?
Nalod wrote:Did anyone listen to Thibs comment or take the bait from Tommy Beer.
Beer does a good job but often he is leading.
Thibs intimated that RJ has been sick. The quote by itself suggests RJ is slacking.
Listen to the bit and then think. To me it suggested he has not been able to practice.
Did not get that he was “calling him out”.Anyone else get that or am I drinking the maple flavored Kool Aid?
Oh we got it
martin wrote:Vmart wrote:Why does no one acknowledge synergy, Bullock, Payton and Frank may not be performing well especially Bullock but he fit well with the Knicks. those players may not be performing well but they were part of the 4 th seeded Knicks.Because it's disingenuous to the larger picture of things and kinda obvious to the point of irrelevance?
And if you are being honest, Frank was not a part of it really, so I don't know why one would include his name on the list.
And pretty much everyone and their grandma who doesn't even watch the Knicks KNEW the Knicks were going to 100% move on from Elf, so who cares about him.
And the rest of grandma's friends knew the Knicks were severely limited with Bullock as a starter as seen by the Atlanta series and had FA choices to make and that Bullock would be an unfortunate candidate.
The question remains why you aren't moving on from a moot point?
I agree about Frank as he didn't play much, but EP either penetrated or stayed outside which allowed room. Problem was he bricked most of the kickouts to him.
Last season I believe Bullock was the ideal fit that helped allow Randle to dominate the ball... it also allowed RJ to develop more as the 2nd option. Not needing to dribble and spreading the court is huge for the way our offense is orchestrated. It's not about Bullock being exceptionally good or not - it's that he was always a threat by camping behind the 3pt line. Opposing teams couldn't exert double team pressure with Bullock behind the line. Kind of like how Novak would camp and that allowed Melo his ISO room to be so effective that year. Coincidence or not - when we moved on from Novak Melo didn't seem as efficient. So while players like Novak and Bullock are one dimensional- they fit the system built around Randle.
Chicken or the egg - Randle not playing well makes the other 4 struggle or the other 4 struggling negatively impact Randle's play? Well everyone's struggling so while I don't believe having Bullock fixes everything - I do strongly believe it would be helping Randle (and RJ to an extent) offensively and defensively. Sad truth is we could have signer Fournier and still resigned Bullock - not sure why we passed?