Obviously we are all ecstatic of Randle's progress and as a player who just turned 26 and is showing all-star production, we would be crazy not to keep him long-term as a foundational piece. But obviously it does create some concerns around Toppin, as their skillsets do overlap. I am encouraged that they can play together though, because both are skilled passers and are improving outside shooters. It's not a natural fit, but it can work. But eventually (not now) Thibs is going to have to let it loose, because using Toppin exclusively as a Randle backup can't last forever.
Noel is a solid backup to Robinson, but I think when the team is fully healthy, he needs to be removed from the regular rotation. Here's why;
C M Robinson 30 mpg
PF J Randle 36 mpg
SF RJ Barrett 36 mpg
This seems like the sort of minutes Thibs is settling into with these guys. That leaves 42 front court minutes available per game.
Toppin 24 mpg would put Randle at center for 18 mpg (exactly 1/2 of his minutes.)
Knox 18 mpg would give him the remaining of those minutes as a 3pt sniper and would be 12 mpg as the backup SF and the remaining minutes at PF in a smallball line-up.
Unless the plan is to play Toppin some minutes at the SF, which I don't see defensively as a good option, this is really the only solution going forward. Noel, or another player like him, would have to be ok with just spot minutes in case of foul trouble or injury. But getting Toppin 24 mpg at a minimum has to be the plan eventually. Toppin is a rookie who didn't have a summer league so there is time to let this sort itself out, but he's a 22 (almost 23) year old player who needs to eventually be allowed to contribute and this is the way I see it as possible. But Thibs will have to be ok with not having a defensive anchor at center 48 mpg.
I think Toppin does a few things that are needed even right now - he makes quick decisions and plays faster. That said, you can't really play him much with Randle due to defense. And Randle is carrying the load offensively so think Toppin will keep sitting for the most part. Best case - Toppin sits and learns this year and is ready to play significant minutes next year when the Knicks decide to dump Randle :)
jskinny35 wrote:I think Toppin does a few things that are needed even right now - he makes quick decisions and plays faster. That said, you can't really play him much with Randle due to defense. And Randle is carrying the load offensively so think Toppin will keep sitting for the most part. Best case - Toppin sits and learns this year and is ready to play significant minutes next year when the Knicks decide to dump Randle :)
Randle is so bad. Who would want him? He about to be cut from the league (sarcasm)
Who are we picking up for Randle that can give us a triple double?
Yea I know he old as dirt. 3 years older than Robinson 😅
(I’m a Toppin fan but he won’t be half as good as Randle)
We will be lucky to get 15/8/5 from toppin in 3 years
Only reason to get rid of Randle is if I’m 2022he asks for more than 25m a season
Imagine how good the team could be if you add 2 other all stars wirhrandle as a third or 4th option.
Yeah I think Randle is here to stay. Why would the Knicks move him ? Which is why I’m trying to figure out how Toppin becomes a 6th man. That’s his path right now.
so far its fine. Obi has been hurt and Randle is having an AS campaign.
I am a huge believer in Obi and think in a couple years he will be a walking bucket all star caliber player. He and Randle can share the floor. The problem is how their roles change when they do. Both are best operating inside but Obi is the only one who is a consistent shooter from deep (so far .357 in the NBA and .417 in NCAA). So does it benefit the Knicks to play Obi as a spot up shooter and guarding a 4/5 on defense? Not really...
The other "problem" aside from their offensive roles is Randle's defense has been fantastic. It was not impressive last year but he's been a wall this year and when he and Mitch share the floor our interior/help defense and rebounding are elite. That is what is keeping us in games and Obi is not helping there, at least not yet.
The tough question is which player has the higher upside and career arc in general? Randle def looks ready to start winning. Do we resign him and try to make it work or move one of them sooner?
xblvdels3 - I am not a fan of Randle's game but can easily admit he's been extremely productive and we would have 1-2 wins without him at this point in the season. That said the post was about where Toppin can possibly fit in and it seems clear to me that you can't play Randle and Toppin together for any lengthy period of time due to the limits on their defense. In another post I suggested we sell high on Randle for a variety of reasons - believe he's overachieving and can't sustain this level of play ongoing, will command large chuck of cap after deal expires, due to roster flaws (eg no outside shooting) hard to revolve the offense around an undersized 4 that can't shoot well outside, believe his style of play stunts RJ's growth as their is no room for spacing, Toppin can't play unless we move Mitch, etc...
I don't have the trade forecaster to answer who could we replace him with, but I did mention Zach Lavine as an example as he's producing similar points and rebounds, shoots better from the outside, opens up spacing as a result, could then allow room for Toppin, etc. Again Randle is our best player right now but as a result RJ often becomes a spot up shooter (which he clearly is not due to spacing) and Toppin won't be able to play much minutes. When we played Denver we couldn't even set up the usual Randle focused offense because they run 10-11 guys and play at such a fast pace. I don't know if Toppin will become the answer - but he's young and plays fast so I'd like to find out. Don't think we will be able to see his skills in a good fit for him if Randle is always playing.
jskinny35 wrote:xblvdels3 - I am not a fan of Randle's game but can easily admit he's been extremely productive and we would have 1-2 wins without him at this point in the season. That said the post was about where Toppin can possibly fit in and it seems clear to me that you can't play Randle and Toppin together for any lengthy period of time due to the limits on their defense. In another post I suggested we sell high on Randle for a variety of reasons - believe he's overachieving and can't sustain this level of play ongoing, will command large chuck of cap after deal expires, due to roster flaws (eg no outside shooting) hard to revolve the offense around an undersized 4 that can't shoot well outside, believe his style of play stunts RJ's growth as their is no room for spacing, Toppin can't play unless we move Mitch, etc... I don't have the trade forecaster to answer who could we replace him with, but I did mention Zach Lavine as an example as he's producing similar points and rebounds, shoots better from the outside, opens up spacing as a result, could then allow room for Toppin, etc. Again Randle is our best player right now but as a result RJ often becomes a spot up shooter (which he clearly is not due to spacing) and Toppin won't be able to play much minutes. When we played Denver we couldn't even set up the usual Randle focused offense because they run 10-11 guys and play at such a fast pace. I don't know if Toppin will become the answer - but he's young and plays fast so I'd like to find out. Don't think we will be able to see his skills in a good fit for him if Randle is always playing.
I’m familiar with your point of view.it has merit. We need more time to evaluate the situation.
I’m All for obi success.
jskinny35 wrote:xblvdels3 - I am not a fan of Randle's game but can easily admit he's been extremely productive and we would have 1-2 wins without him at this point in the season. That said the post was about where Toppin can possibly fit in and it seems clear to me that you can't play Randle and Toppin together for any lengthy period of time due to the limits on their defense. In another post I suggested we sell high on Randle for a variety of reasons - believe he's overachieving and can't sustain this level of play ongoing, will command large chuck of cap after deal expires, due to roster flaws (eg no outside shooting) hard to revolve the offense around an undersized 4 that can't shoot well outside, believe his style of play stunts RJ's growth as their is no room for spacing, Toppin can't play unless we move Mitch, etc... I don't have the trade forecaster to answer who could we replace him with, but I did mention Zach Lavine as an example as he's producing similar points and rebounds, shoots better from the outside, opens up spacing as a result, could then allow room for Toppin, etc. Again Randle is our best player right now but as a result RJ often becomes a spot up shooter (which he clearly is not due to spacing) and Toppin won't be able to play much minutes. When we played Denver we couldn't even set up the usual Randle focused offense because they run 10-11 guys and play at such a fast pace. I don't know if Toppin will become the answer - but he's young and plays fast so I'd like to find out. Don't think we will be able to see his skills in a good fit for him if Randle is always playing.
RJ becomes a spot up shooter more-so because of Payton. I believe Randle and Barrett are fine together.
I see no problem. The kid has been healthy how many games? If he continues to improve and plays well he will get some more minutes. If not, he can continue to work on his game. Have never really agreed with the narrative that guys need extended game time as rookies to keep from stunning their growth. Right now, there is absolutely NO reason for Toppin to be taking Randles minutes. If anything, Knox, Rivers and Burks deserve some of those minutes by Thibs going to smaller line ups. Toppin will be fine. Just keep working on your game young gun.
It would be nice to see obi get some minutes at the 5 and stretch the floor.... so far his defense looks ok, seems he really worked on d this off-season. He’s a big dude no reason he can’t play some back up 5 .
Also love that randle can’t slack with obi behind him . Regardless obi is the future even if we max randle. There’s only one player I’d move randle for and that’s Bradley Beal . And I still have reservations about that move
fitzfarm wrote:It would be nice to see obi get some minutes at the 5 and stretch the floor.... so far his defense looks ok, seems he really worked on d this off-season. He’s a big dude no reason he can’t play some back up 5 .
Also love that randle can’t slack with obi behind him . Regardless obi is the future even if we max randle. There’s only one player I’d move randle for and that’s Bradley Beal . And I still have reservations about that move
He can play 5 or Randle can. It doesn’t matter. But they have to be able to play together.
If Jeff Green can play center for the nets. Randle and obi are both stronger than him and should be able to play in short burst. But if their offense isn't clicking, coach needs to monitor those timeouts. Becasue their rim defense on lobs or back door layups will be open.
fishmike wrote:so far its fine. Obi has been hurt and Randle is having an AS campaign. I am a huge believer in Obi and think in a couple years he will be a walking bucket all star caliber player. He and Randle can share the floor. The problem is how their roles change when they do. Both are best operating inside but Obi is the only one who is a consistent shooter from deep (so far .357 in the NBA and .417 in NCAA). So does it benefit the Knicks to play Obi as a spot up shooter and guarding a 4/5 on defense? Not really...
The other "problem" aside from their offensive roles is Randle's defense has been fantastic. It was not impressive last year but he's been a wall this year and when he and Mitch share the floor our interior/help defense and rebounding are elite. That is what is keeping us in games and Obi is not helping there, at least not yet.
The tough question is which player has the higher upside and career arc in general? Randle def looks ready to start winning. Do we resign him and try to make it work or move one of them sooner?
This will sound crazy...and for the record. I think the best trade right now is no trade, if it involves obi or Randle. Both have value thats only going to increase. Especially after Randle becomes an all star.
But if you want to build an instant playoff team. I would trade Randle or Obi. Depending on what internal scouts say. I pick youth all day, but its not like Randle is old. Hes in his prime at a young age. Thats also why he would return important pieces we need to build around the young guys. They are clearly ready to play at this level....and it will be a valuable learning lesson for next season....like a lion who had a taste of success, come back hungrier.
blkexec wrote:If Jeff Green can play center for the nets. Randle and obi are both stronger than him and should be able to play in short burst. But if their offense isn't clicking, coach needs to monitor those timeouts. Becasue their rim defense on lobs or back door layups will be open.
Probably not the best example to use right now considering the nets gave up 147 pts with Green soaking up ton of minutes at center
Knixkik wrote:Yeah I think Randle is here to stay. Why would the Knicks move him ? Which is why I’m trying to figure out how Toppin becomes a 6th man. That’s his path right now.
Randle is excellent trade bait next summer
Obi is the future at PF
Philc1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Yeah I think Randle is here to stay. Why would the Knicks move him ? Which is why I’m trying to figure out how Toppin becomes a 6th man. That’s his path right now.
Randle is excellent trade bait next summer
Obi is the future at PF
With Thibs as coach and Rose as Prez, Randle isn't going anywhere. He's 26, a developing star, played at Kentucky, and is CAA. Knicks are moving towards win-now and not looking for a restart after the year he's having.
Knixkik wrote:Philc1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Yeah I think Randle is here to stay. Why would the Knicks move him ? Which is why I’m trying to figure out how Toppin becomes a 6th man. That’s his path right now.
Randle is excellent trade bait next summer
Obi is the future at PF
With Thibs as coach and Rose as Prez, Randle isn't going anywhere. He's 26, a developing star, played at Kentucky, and is CAA. Knicks are moving towards win-now and not looking for a restart after the year he's having.
Whats your source? Or are you speculating? Because if anybody can be traded. Regardless of age or performance. It all depends on how they view obi. If he's longterm. Then will will play behind Randle like Aaron Roger's did for years in Greenway.
You can still trade Randle, as long as it fills a need, while making room for obi to get more minutes.
blkexec wrote:Knixkik wrote:Philc1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Yeah I think Randle is here to stay. Why would the Knicks move him ? Which is why I’m trying to figure out how Toppin becomes a 6th man. That’s his path right now.
Randle is excellent trade bait next summer
Obi is the future at PF
With Thibs as coach and Rose as Prez, Randle isn't going anywhere. He's 26, a developing star, played at Kentucky, and is CAA. Knicks are moving towards win-now and not looking for a restart after the year he's having.
Whats your source? Or are you speculating? Because if anybody can be traded. Regardless of age or performance. It all depends on how they view obi. If he's longterm. Then will will play behind Randle like Aaron Roger's did for years in Greenway.
You can still trade Randle, as long as it fills a need, while making room for obi to get more minutes.
Yes i'm speculating of course, and anyone can be traded, but I listed all of the reasons I don't see him getting traded. I'm sure they love Obi, but do you think they feel Obi in his prime will be better than Randle is now? I'm don't think so. They would have to believe Obi will be a superstar in order to move Randle.
blkexec wrote:Knixkik wrote:Philc1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Yeah I think Randle is here to stay. Why would the Knicks move him ? Which is why I’m trying to figure out how Toppin becomes a 6th man. That’s his path right now.
Randle is excellent trade bait next summer
Obi is the future at PF
With Thibs as coach and Rose as Prez, Randle isn't going anywhere. He's 26, a developing star, played at Kentucky, and is CAA. Knicks are moving towards win-now and not looking for a restart after the year he's having.
Whats your source? Or are you speculating? Because if anybody can be traded. Regardless of age or performance. It all depends on how they view obi. If he's longterm. Then will will play behind Randle like Aaron Roger's did for years in Greenway.
You can still trade Randle, as long as it fills a need, while making room for obi to get more minutes.
why are you trading Randle?
I understand Why some fan always want to trade our best player for draft projects.
