Knicks · I need to understand the plan at PF (page 1)

Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

dont over think it... its a BPA situation and Obi is a scorer on a roster with very little scoring talent.

Randle has been great and that is great. Its a good problem to have. Obi has a lot to learn and this roster is in its EARLY stages. This is all still about getting players.

This offseason everyone BUT the FO wanted Randle gone. I said I thought we would keep him based on what you mentioned above and there was no reason to sell low.

We dont need a plan at PF. We have Randle/Obi locked up this year and next. One is an all star, the other a rookie with great scoring potential.

The plan is what are we doing at PG and SF

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

dont over think it... its a BPA situation and Obi is a scorer on a roster with very little scoring talent.

Randle has been great and that is great. Its a good problem to have. Obi has a lot to learn and this roster is in its EARLY stages. This is all still about getting players.

This offseason everyone BUT the FO wanted Randle gone. I said I thought we would keep him based on what you mentioned above and there was no reason to sell low.

We dont need a plan at PF. We have Randle/Obi locked up this year and next. One is an all star, the other a rookie with great scoring potential.

The plan is what are we doing at PG and SF

I agree it's a good problem to have, but i just wonder if Randle was consulted during the process why draft a player who would have the potential to replace him? A lot of us really like Haliburton, who could solve a lot of problems. I'm not down on Toppin at all but just feel like there wasn't a clear plan here.

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

The media already had told us.... the Knicks were willing to trade up to #5 spot with CLE to get Obi. He was BPA in their minds

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

The media already had told us.... the Knicks were willing to trade up to #5 spot with CLE to get Obi. He was BPA in their minds

But that same media also assumed at the time that Randle wasn't part of the long-term plan. If what he said about being included in the coaching search to some extend is true, than I think there's more to uncover here and it's safe to assume Randle was always part of the plan.

Did they feel like Randle or Toppin can play center long-term?
Did they not only think Toppin was the BPA, but felt there was no other player available at 8 that could help the team?
Did Rose and Wes go to Randle and say "hey we think you and Toppin will make a nice future starting 4/5 together?"

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

The media already had told us.... the Knicks were willing to trade up to #5 spot with CLE to get Obi. He was BPA in their minds

But that same media also assumed at the time that Randle wasn't part of the long-term plan. If what he said about being included in the coaching search to some extend is true, than I think there's more to uncover here and it's safe to assume Randle was always part of the plan.

Did they feel like Randle or Toppin can play center long-term?
Did they not only think Toppin was the BPA, but felt there was no other player available at 8 that could help the team?
Did Rose and Wes go to Randle and say "hey we think you and Toppin will make a nice future starting 4/5 together?"

What Fish said: you are overthinking this

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

The media already had told us.... the Knicks were willing to trade up to #5 spot with CLE to get Obi. He was BPA in their minds

But that same media also assumed at the time that Randle wasn't part of the long-term plan. If what he said about being included in the coaching search to some extend is true, than I think there's more to uncover here and it's safe to assume Randle was always part of the plan.

Did they feel like Randle or Toppin can play center long-term?
Did they not only think Toppin was the BPA, but felt there was no other player available at 8 that could help the team?
Did Rose and Wes go to Randle and say "hey we think you and Toppin will make a nice future starting 4/5 together?"

Maybe Randle would have been moved if he said that he wasnt a fan of Thibs. You want the best player on your team buying in, no matter how long that player is on the roster. Hard for a new coach to get off to a good start otherwise. That might have been why Randle was consulted.

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

dont over think it... its a BPA situation and Obi is a scorer on a roster with very little scoring talent.

Randle has been great and that is great. Its a good problem to have. Obi has a lot to learn and this roster is in its EARLY stages. This is all still about getting players.

This offseason everyone BUT the FO wanted Randle gone. I said I thought we would keep him based on what you mentioned above and there was no reason to sell low.

We dont need a plan at PF. We have Randle/Obi locked up this year and next. One is an all star, the other a rookie with great scoring potential.

The plan is what are we doing at PG and SF

I believe the FO was trying to move Jules for the right price. There was no rush because he was on a team option and it wouldn't hurt to have a vet to smooth Obi in slowly. I think it's safe to say that no one expected JR to improve the way he did and for Obi to start off this slowly. Everyone projected Obi to be a plug and play guy who's be in the ROY race. It's not a bad situation to be in. You can slam scouting for having Obi rated to high, but they also got great value for IQ. Maybe you can blame Leon for the Obi pick? He was reportedly Obi's biggest cheerleader before the draft. Anyway, PF is the least of this teams problems right now. They've got Jules back for $20M on the team option and he's playing nearly 40 mins a game. I'm more interested in the team's plan for OG.

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

The media already had told us.... the Knicks were willing to trade up to #5 spot with CLE to get Obi. He was BPA in their minds

But that same media also assumed at the time that Randle wasn't part of the long-term plan. If what he said about being included in the coaching search to some extend is true, than I think there's more to uncover here and it's safe to assume Randle was always part of the plan.

Did they feel like Randle or Toppin can play center long-term?
Did they not only think Toppin was the BPA, but felt there was no other player available at 8 that could help the team?
Did Rose and Wes go to Randle and say "hey we think you and Toppin will make a nice future starting 4/5 together?"

What Fish said: you are overthinking this

Of course I am, but that's what we do here.

As we stand right now, the Knicks used the 8th pick on a player who is stuck behind a 26 year old potential franchise player and can't play another position. The front office bailed itself out with the Quickley pick. Thibs is such a great coach that he turned a roster that was supposed to be a basement dweller into a solid, improving team, so I understand the Toppin issue isn't a concern for now.

I think it's a legitimate question. While they may have been high on Toppin they knew going in he was defensively challenged. They also knew Randle struggled last year and entered the season out of expectations due to last season. With a glaring need at PG they chose Toppin. Maybe nobody could forecast that Randle would improve so much and become part of the core going forward. My question is regardless of what they may have thought before - what do you do with Toppin if you are planning on Randle as a core piece. Yes we could simply let him sit/watch for a few seasons, however with Mitch and Randle as starters - is it really optimal to use Toppin as a bench player when he may command trade value that would help us fill some of the talent deficiencies at other positions? I'm all for seeing what Toppin can do (even though I wasn't a fan of drafting him)... I do like that he makes quick decisions compared to the backing down from the high post offense we seem to run a lot. Point is we would probably swap him out for Haliburton if we had a draft do-over but since that ship has sailed - why not use him (with Knox, Frank and whoever else is expendable with some value) to improve our holes at PG, SG, etc?? Doesn't have to be a home run/big trade - but if Randle has the 4 position locked up for the next 4-5 years - Toppin will be a waste of #8 draft pick IMO (assuming he can play like they seem to think he can as BPA).

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

The media already had told us.... the Knicks were willing to trade up to #5 spot with CLE to get Obi. He was BPA in their minds

But that same media also assumed at the time that Randle wasn't part of the long-term plan. If what he said about being included in the coaching search to some extend is true, than I think there's more to uncover here and it's safe to assume Randle was always part of the plan.

Did they feel like Randle or Toppin can play center long-term?
Did they not only think Toppin was the BPA, but felt there was no other player available at 8 that could help the team?
Did Rose and Wes go to Randle and say "hey we think you and Toppin will make a nice future starting 4/5 together?"

What Fish said: you are overthinking this

Of course I am, but that's what we do here.

As we stand right now, the Knicks used the 8th pick on a player who is stuck behind a 26 year old potential franchise player and can't play another position. The front office bailed itself out with the Quickley pick. Thibs is such a great coach that he turned a roster that was supposed to be a basement dweller into a solid, improving team, so I understand the Toppin issue isn't a concern for now.

do we know both of them cant play another position?

The one thing that I don’t understand about drafting Obi. There is no confusion about his game if you scouted him, he is really good in transition and getting the ball while moving to the basket. He is a very good motion player and moves without the ball. He is also a good passer who can read the defense and make good decisions. Obi shot 40% from 3 in college but he averaged 3 shots a game so that is a small sample size. The Knicks do not push the ball up the court and only since DRose arrived as Obi gotten the ball going downhill to the rim. The Knicks have him standing in a corner being a spot shooter and that is not what his strength is. I just don’t know the plan for him and he is getting only 10 minutes so that is not helping his confidence.

Obviously, the team would be better if we had Haliburton but then we probably would not have drafted Quickley. I did not like the Toppin pick at the time but I will say his defense has not been as bad as I thought and I see the potential that he could turn into a major scorer with a couple years of experience and 10-15 more pounds in his frame. He has a good jumpshot, he is an excellent passer out of the post, and he has a decent post game even at his current weight. At the very least, he is a good piece for a potential trade for a top flight SF or SG.

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

Why draft Obi? Because they thought he was the best player available with the most upside and they probably thought he was the most NBA ready. We'll see if they were correct, but you draft the best player available even if you already have someone playing that position.

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

dont over think it... its a BPA situation and Obi is a scorer on a roster with very little scoring talent.

Randle has been great and that is great. Its a good problem to have. Obi has a lot to learn and this roster is in its EARLY stages. This is all still about getting players.

This offseason everyone BUT the FO wanted Randle gone. I said I thought we would keep him based on what you mentioned above and there was no reason to sell low.

We dont need a plan at PF. We have Randle/Obi locked up this year and next. One is an all star, the other a rookie with great scoring potential.

The plan is what are we doing at PG and SF

I agree it's a good problem to have, but i just wonder if Randle was consulted during the process why draft a player who would have the potential to replace him? A lot of us really like Haliburton, who could solve a lot of problems. I'm not down on Toppin at all but just feel like there wasn't a clear plan here.

Here's the other thing.... Knicks had Julius and drafted Obi and you are worried about fit cause they play the same position..... and you are not worried about the same with Hali and IQ?

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

dont over think it... its a BPA situation and Obi is a scorer on a roster with very little scoring talent.

Randle has been great and that is great. Its a good problem to have. Obi has a lot to learn and this roster is in its EARLY stages. This is all still about getting players.

This offseason everyone BUT the FO wanted Randle gone. I said I thought we would keep him based on what you mentioned above and there was no reason to sell low.

We dont need a plan at PF. We have Randle/Obi locked up this year and next. One is an all star, the other a rookie with great scoring potential.

The plan is what are we doing at PG and SF

I agree it's a good problem to have, but i just wonder if Randle was consulted during the process why draft a player who would have the potential to replace him? A lot of us really like Haliburton, who could solve a lot of problems. I'm not down on Toppin at all but just feel like there wasn't a clear plan here.

Here's the other thing.... Knicks had Julius and drafted Obi and you are worried about fit cause they play the same position..... and you are not worried about the same with Hali and IQ?

I view Quickley as more of a PG and Haliburton as more of a SG. Both can play on the ball or spot up. Both can defend their positions. There is no issues with fit there.

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

The media already had told us.... the Knicks were willing to trade up to #5 spot with CLE to get Obi. He was BPA in their minds

But that same media also assumed at the time that Randle wasn't part of the long-term plan. If what he said about being included in the coaching search to some extend is true, than I think there's more to uncover here and it's safe to assume Randle was always part of the plan.

Did they feel like Randle or Toppin can play center long-term?
Did they not only think Toppin was the BPA, but felt there was no other player available at 8 that could help the team?
Did Rose and Wes go to Randle and say "hey we think you and Toppin will make a nice future starting 4/5 together?"

What Fish said: you are overthinking this

Of course I am, but that's what we do here.

As we stand right now, the Knicks used the 8th pick on a player who is stuck behind a 26 year old potential franchise player and can't play another position. The front office bailed itself out with the Quickley pick. Thibs is such a great coach that he turned a roster that was supposed to be a basement dweller into a solid, improving team, so I understand the Toppin issue isn't a concern for now.

do we know both of them cant play another position?

We don’t know. That’s the wildcard here I guess.

TheGame wrote:Obviously, the team would be better if we had Haliburton but the. We probably would not have drafted Quickley. I did not like the Toppin pick at the time but I will say his defense has not been as bad as I thought and see the potential that he could turn into a major scorer with a couple years of experience and 10-15 more pounds in his frame. He has a good jumpsuit, he is an excellent passer out of the post, and he has a decent post game even at his current weight. At the very least, he is an good piece for a potential trade for a top flight SF or SG.

You’re right if we draft Haliburton than maybe quickley doesn’t get picked. Who knows. But the quickley pick really changes the dynamic of this whole thing because he’s so important going forward.

Yeah it’s definitely a BPA thing with Obi

BigDaddyG wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Randle said flat out he was consulted before hiring thibs. Randle is both Kentucky and CAA so he’s double royalty in Knickland at this point. He has emerged into a star but was clearly getting some star treatment back in the summer. So why draft Toppin? He’s CAA and from NY so that’s good, but there has to be more of a plan here. Is the plan eventually to use he and Randle together a lot ? Or was this simply getting the BPA and not worrying about figuring the rest out ? I wish our media would do more of a deep dive into this.

dont over think it... its a BPA situation and Obi is a scorer on a roster with very little scoring talent.

Randle has been great and that is great. Its a good problem to have. Obi has a lot to learn and this roster is in its EARLY stages. This is all still about getting players.

This offseason everyone BUT the FO wanted Randle gone. I said I thought we would keep him based on what you mentioned above and there was no reason to sell low.

We dont need a plan at PF. We have Randle/Obi locked up this year and next. One is an all star, the other a rookie with great scoring potential.

The plan is what are we doing at PG and SF

I believe the FO was trying to move Jules for the right price. There was no rush because he was on a team option and it wouldn't hurt to have a vet to smooth Obi in slowly. I think it's safe to say that no one expected JR to improve the way he did and for Obi to start off this slowly. Everyone projected Obi to be a plug and play guy who's be in the ROY race. It's not a bad situation to be in. You can slam scouting for having Obi rated to high, but they also got great value for IQ. Maybe you can blame Leon for the Obi pick? He was reportedly Obi's biggest cheerleader before the draft. Anyway, PF is the least of this teams problems right now. They've got Jules back for $20M on the team option and he's playing nearly 40 mins a game. I'm more interested in the team's plan for OG.

It may be that simple. The CAA connection and the fact that Obi apparently worked out with Rick Brunson, a close friend and former client of Leon. Definitely feels like a Leon pick. Like you said, with Randle playing like an all-star and with the strong possibility of Randle being extended next summer, it's looking like we used our 8th pick on our future a back-up PF.

Portland fans: Why draft MJ to be a back-up to Clyde Drexler? Doesn't the FO have a plan??!