Knicks · No offense but Thibs offense is offensive... (page 1)
We play selfishly on offense. Outside of occasional pick n rolls, and drive and kicks by Randle ( which we haven't seen much of after the allstar break) its pretty much every man for themselves. Everything is one on one. We don't push the ball and we rarely get any easy baskets. We work almost as hard to score as we do to stop the other team from scoring.
I understand we do not have premier point guard but that's no excuse. An elite offensive coach will build a system around the personnel.
Where are the off ball screens? Back door cuts? Baseline Flex screens? I assume we scouted Quickley before we drafted him. If anyone watched Quickley at Kentucky, Coach Cal ran Quick off flare screens to get him open for 3s. He ran some pin downs for Quickley which allowed him to catch and shoot and positioned him in the corner for kick outs off Hagans or Maxeys dribble drives. So, how does Thibs have Quickley playing? Steady diet of one on one and an occasional pick n roll to shoot 3s off the dribble.I won't bother to touch on how we are not playing to Obi's strength because he only plays 10 mins per game.
We are dead last in assists per game. I get it, a lot of teams play iso ball. Lebron and the Lakers, Luka ball, Kyrie and Harden, Kwahi, and even Rose during his MVP pre injury years. Those guys are in a different stratosphere than Randle.
I give Thibs props for the defense he has us playing. For someone that is so metimeticulous and has us so prepared on the defensive end, its inexcusable how unprepared we look on the offensive end at times.
1. Play veterans and focus on meaningless games in the long run over rookie development
2. Hurt our chances in one of the deepest drafts in a generation
Think a better question is are the high minute logs now having an affect?
HofstraBBall wrote:Where was this thread when we were the toast of the city three games ago? What happened to "we need a defensive minded coach"? What has been the shooting percentage these last few games? I think it just comes down to guys making shots. It's easy to point to the coach. But when guys are not making shots, no system works. I can't remember a system fans have not criticized when players are not doing their job.Think a better question is are the high minute logs now having an affect?
Yes. I’ve spent many minutes watching us not move the ball. I don’t know how many more minutes I can log!
HofstraBBall wrote:Where was this thread when we were the toast of the city three games ago? What happened to "we need a defensive minded coach"? What has been the shooting percentage these last few games? I think it just comes down to guys making shots. It's easy to point to the coach. But when guys are not making shots, no system works. I can't remember a system fans have not criticized when players are not doing their job.Think a better question is are the high minute logs now having an affect?
Posts like this happened back then, but you would be labeled a pessimist and told to focus on winning.
Appreciating the winning and the job Thibs has done defensively can coexist with being worried about the youth playing and the offense being predictable and almost non-existent.
I’m personally souring up on Thibs as the coach. Yes, he has turned this team into a defensive team and that deserves all the credit. But the weaknesses we knew he had in gigs with Chicago and Minnesota remain. I personally don’t like a coach that is stubborn because you need creativity and willingness to adapt to win in the NBA. In a league that has become more offensive oriented, you can’t expect to win if you always go one-on-one and don’t move the ball. It’s also unfair to favor some players while not trying hard to get others into your game plan.
It’s conflicting because bottom line it should be a cause of celebration we have been so competitive. But I personally have seen too many traits that I dislike from Thibs. Stubbornness is the worst. You have a bench, so use it! You have players with different strengths, so use those! The opposing team has changed its strategy on you, so adapt! Change your rotation if you have to in order to win that game. But it’s very hypocritical to say you are in win-now mode and yet not do anything to adapt in order to actually win.
I commented a few weeks back this team was not much fun to watch on offense even when winning.
Rose had a not so typical bad game and IQ flat out does not move the ball. Its ok when he is hitting the shots.
Relying on Burk’s hero ball is not gonna get it done. It was like watching Timmy JR when he was a knick.
The blame game? The collective. Was not one player or anther but “knicks”.
Thibs has his rotations and the players buy in and it works. But we he limited talent. That talent was over achieving mostly.
Bright side it was fun to see a glimpse into Obi. He showed a full repertoire last night of why we drafted him.
As for IQ its. Bit more apparent why he is not starting when that shot is not falling. He misses passing lanes and seems more preoccupied in attracting fouls then the shot. Rookie mistakes and all ok. Making decisions instinctively takes time. Not a PG mentality.
Knicksfan wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Where was this thread when we were the toast of the city three games ago? What happened to "we need a defensive minded coach"? What has been the shooting percentage these last few games? I think it just comes down to guys making shots. It's easy to point to the coach. But when guys are not making shots, no system works. I can't remember a system fans have not criticized when players are not doing their job.Think a better question is are the high minute logs now having an affect?
Posts like this happened back then, but you would be labeled a pessimist and told to focus on winning.
Appreciating the winning and the job Thibs has done defensively can coexist with being worried about the youth playing and the offense being predictable and almost non-existent.
I’m personally souring up on Thibs as the coach. Yes, he has turned this team into a defensive team and that deserves all the credit. But the weaknesses we knew he had in gigs with Chicago and Minnesota remain. I personally don’t like a coach that is stubborn because you need creativity and willingness to adapt to win in the NBA. In a league that has become more offensive oriented, you can’t expect to win if you always go one-on-one and don’t move the ball. It’s also unfair to favor some players while not trying hard to get others into your game plan.
It’s conflicting because bottom line it should be a cause of celebration we have been so competitive. But I personally have seen too many traits that I dislike from Thibs. Stubbornness is the worst. You have a bench, so use it! You have players with different strengths, so use those! The opposing team has changed its strategy on you, so adapt! Change your rotation if you have to in order to win that game. But it’s very hypocritical to say you are in win-now mode and yet not do anything to adapt in order to actually win.
You are more than correct with this post. It’s nice to see that someone else understands that Thibs hasn’t really done the best job with the rotations and offense to win games.
I think we will be battling his stubbornness till the end of his time with us. Like you said it’s what we signed up for. Hopefully we will attract enough offensive talent or a more talented offensive minded coach in the future to counter these deficiencies in Thibs.
HofstraBBall wrote:Where was this thread when we were the toast of the city three games ago? What happened to "we need a defensive minded coach"? What has been the shooting percentage these last few games? I think it just comes down to guys making shots. It's easy to point to the coach. But when guys are not making shots, no system works. I can't remember a system fans have not criticized when players are not doing their job.Think a better question is are the high minute logs now having an affect?
This post is very general and not specific to any my posts, because I've made these statements in numerous game threads throughout the year. Even when we were winning more consistently, Randle-ball wasn't a very good offense...
I've outlined the issues with Thibs offensive sets or lack thereof and the reasons why guys ain't making shots and ain't doing a job that some are not qualified for...Its up to the coach to adjust to his personnel.
nyvector16 wrote:You forgot to mention how the win now approach at all costs will only accomplish two things:
1. Play veterans and focus on meaningless games in the long run over rookie development
2. Hurt our chances in one of the deepest drafts in a generation
I'm with you but that's a whole 'nother thread bro!! Don't worry, its coming!
HofstraBBall wrote:Where was this thread when we were the toast of the city three games ago? What happened to "we need a defensive minded coach"? What has been the shooting percentage these last few games? I think it just comes down to guys making shots. It's easy to point to the coach. But when guys are not making shots, no system works. I can't remember a system fans have not criticized when players are not doing their job.Think a better question is are the high minute logs now having an affect?
Even when the team is "winning" the offense looks bad. I realize part of that is because Thibs wants to play a slower pace. But you really have to wonder about his minutes distribution. You can't roll guys out for 49 minutes a night and expect to maintain the same consistency. To his credit, Randle has been crazy consistent from game to game. But the wear eventually catches up to you.
Uptown wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Where was this thread when we were the toast of the city three games ago? What happened to "we need a defensive minded coach"? What has been the shooting percentage these last few games? I think it just comes down to guys making shots. It's easy to point to the coach. But when guys are not making shots, no system works. I can't remember a system fans have not criticized when players are not doing their job.Think a better question is are the high minute logs now having an affect?
This post is very general and not specific to any my posts, because I've made these statements in numerous game threads throughout the year. Even when we were winning more consistently, Randle-ball wasn't a very good offense...
I've outlined the issues with Thibs offensive sets or lack thereof and the reasons why guys ain't making shots and ain't doing a job that some are not qualified for...Its up to the coach to adjust to his personnel.
Agree with some. Offenses can always be improved somewhat. Especially from a fan prospective. At the end of the day if players make shots you win and fans are happy. Fans will always claim there is a better scheme out there but if you look at any team, even the chip winners, there is no magic 10 pass offense they are coming up with. If you watch it's mostly simple sets where guys are making shots at high clicks. What was Mavs offense? Luca dribbles until something happens. Just never bought into coaches being at fault in the NBA. It's a players league and players have to make shots.
Knicksfan wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Where was this thread when we were the toast of the city three games ago? What happened to "we need a defensive minded coach"? What has been the shooting percentage these last few games? I think it just comes down to guys making shots. It's easy to point to the coach. But when guys are not making shots, no system works. I can't remember a system fans have not criticized when players are not doing their job.Think a better question is are the high minute logs now having an affect?
Posts like this happened back then, but you would be labeled a pessimist and told to focus on winning.
Appreciating the winning and the job Thibs has done defensively can coexist with being worried about the youth playing and the offense being predictable and almost non-existent.
I’m personally souring up on Thibs as the coach. Yes, he has turned this team into a defensive team and that deserves all the credit. But the weaknesses we knew he had in gigs with Chicago and Minnesota remain. I personally don’t like a coach that is stubborn because you need creativity and willingness to adapt to win in the NBA. In a league that has become more offensive oriented, you can’t expect to win if you always go one-on-one and don’t move the ball. It’s also unfair to favor some players while not trying hard to get others into your game plan.
It’s conflicting because bottom line it should be a cause of celebration we have been so competitive. But I personally have seen too many traits that I dislike from Thibs. Stubbornness is the worst. You have a bench, so use it! You have players with different strengths, so use those! The opposing team has changed its strategy on you, so adapt! Change your rotation if you have to in order to win that game. But it’s very hypocritical to say you are in win-now mode and yet not do anything to adapt in order to actually win.
Not sure I understand this statement as it pertains to Thibs and his ability to coach on the offensive side of the ball, I think you have mentioned this in the Frank thread too.
In Minny, Thibs had one of the better Offensive Efficient teams in the league, the defense was horrible. And for several years when Chicago was at the top, their offense was top 10 and top 5 in Offensive Efficiency.
ESOMKnicks wrote:Just re-watched the 1994 game 7 vs Indiana. Boy, that was some ugly offense we played even under Riley, who had some pretty decent offensive chops from his time with the Showtime. Some passing around the perimeter, but no one able to shoot a lick or penetrate, just relentless under the boards, fighting for loose balls and slugging it on the defensive end.
It was a totally different league back then. Defensive 3 seconds rules have changed the game. We used to camp Mason, Oak and Ewing in the paint and invite opponents to try to slash
A lot of the Dolan dysfunction of the past 20 years was he never really got that. He kept enlisting idiot puppets like Layden and Isiah to try to build 90’s rosters
martin wrote:Knicksfan wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Where was this thread when we were the toast of the city three games ago? What happened to "we need a defensive minded coach"? What has been the shooting percentage these last few games? I think it just comes down to guys making shots. It's easy to point to the coach. But when guys are not making shots, no system works. I can't remember a system fans have not criticized when players are not doing their job.Think a better question is are the high minute logs now having an affect?
Posts like this happened back then, but you would be labeled a pessimist and told to focus on winning.
Appreciating the winning and the job Thibs has done defensively can coexist with being worried about the youth playing and the offense being predictable and almost non-existent.
I’m personally souring up on Thibs as the coach. Yes, he has turned this team into a defensive team and that deserves all the credit. But the weaknesses we knew he had in gigs with Chicago and Minnesota remain. I personally don’t like a coach that is stubborn because you need creativity and willingness to adapt to win in the NBA. In a league that has become more offensive oriented, you can’t expect to win if you always go one-on-one and don’t move the ball. It’s also unfair to favor some players while not trying hard to get others into your game plan.
It’s conflicting because bottom line it should be a cause of celebration we have been so competitive. But I personally have seen too many traits that I dislike from Thibs. Stubbornness is the worst. You have a bench, so use it! You have players with different strengths, so use those! The opposing team has changed its strategy on you, so adapt! Change your rotation if you have to in order to win that game. But it’s very hypocritical to say you are in win-now mode and yet not do anything to adapt in order to actually win.
Not sure I understand this statement as it pertains to Thibs and his ability to coach on the offensive side of the ball, I think you have mentioned this in the Frank thread too.
In Minny, Thibs had one of the better Offensive Efficient teams in the league, the defense was horrible. And for several years when Chicago was at the top, their offense was top 10 and top 5 in Offensive Efficiency.
Thibs blackballing Frank is puzzling. He’s a Van Gundy clone so he’s all about the D but he refuses to play our best perimeter defender
The “Frank can’t run an offense” excuse is ridiculous. Neither can Payton who does nothing but dribble and neither he nor Rose can shoot
Fans have to blame. Knicks are improved. Its been great. Now we moving to were we should be which was a sub .500 team fighting for the play in.
Why did we not make a move to improve NOW.........Its so easy other teams seem to do it all the time. And yet the really don’t.
change is not always improvement but we are American and that can do attitude of “at lest we tried” is or thing.
