Knicks · Free agency can't come soon enough, Lonzo Ball is the answer (page 5)

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:Kawhi is a SF

Giddy plays PG for his team

I know. I see a chemistry problem, their games are so similar. If we got Kawhi, Randle would not be the right option at PF IMO. We would need a big who doesnt touch the ball as much. Obi (if he keeps progressing) would be a better fit. With Lonzo's ability to find cutting teammates.

Think we could better use the cap space to keep most of the rotation we have.

As I said about Giddey, it was a quick look. I see more of a point forward (in a pinch) in the NBA.

Use cap space on Kawhi or keep the rotation players we have right now would not have been the turning point I would have imagined the thread to reach.

Wouldnt have imagined this conversation taking such a douchey turn Martin. WTF?

Randle is 3 years younger, more durable, better orchestrator. All Star. How did the Clips do last playoffs? Did Kawhi put them over the top? The rotation we have, with the addition of Ball, and another difference maker, might be good enough to challenge a Nets squad that has a lot of trouble staying on the court for very long.

Maxing out Kawhi when he's pushing 30 is not a good idea. Doubt he will come to NY for just a couple of years, at 30. Might be his last big payday.

Melo wasnt on Kawhi's level. But that near max re-up, and the injuries, cost us. Dont want to see it happen again.

Oh yeah, how did it become douchey?

Or did you expect that making the type of statement that you did can’t be brought to light or questioned?

Kawhi or resign who with cap space? Burks, Bullock, Rose, Frank, Noel, Taj? Who?

And why do you think that just because Kawhi didn’t carry his team to finals last year - as he had done just the previous year for a ring - diminishes him as one of the best 2-way players in the league?

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:Kawhi is a SF

Giddy plays PG for his team

I know. I see a chemistry problem, their games are so similar. If we got Kawhi, Randle would not be the right option at PF IMO. We would need a big who doesnt touch the ball as much. Obi (if he keeps progressing) would be a better fit. With Lonzo's ability to find cutting teammates.

Think we could better use the cap space to keep most of the rotation we have.

As I said about Giddey, it was a quick look. I see more of a point forward (in a pinch) in the NBA.

Use cap space on Kawhi or keep the rotation players we have right now would not have been the turning point I would have imagined the thread to reach.

Wouldnt have imagined this conversation taking such a douchey turn Martin. WTF?

Randle is 3 years younger, more durable, better orchestrator. All Star. How did the Clips do last playoffs? Did Kawhi put them over the top? The rotation we have, with the addition of Ball, and another difference maker, might be good enough to challenge a Nets squad that has a lot of trouble staying on the court for very long.

Maxing out Kawhi when he's pushing 30 is not a good idea. Doubt he will come to NY for just a couple of years, at 30. Might be his last big payday.

Melo wasnt on Kawhi's level. But that near max re-up, and the injuries, cost us. Dont want to see it happen again.

Oh yeah, how did it become douchey?

Or did you expect that making the type of statement that you did can’t be brought to light or questioned?

Kawhi or resign who with cap space? Burks, Bullock, Rose, Frank, Noel, Taj? Who?

And why do you think that just because Kawhi didn’t carry his team to finals last year - as he had done just the previous year for a ring - diminishes him as one of the best 2-way players in the league?

Do not deny your douchery sir. It is unbecoming.

Suggesting that I made a thread altering comment.

Look at how you keep framing my statement.

"Role players or Kawhi" pure douchery!

You're leaving out that I dont believe Randle will work with Kawhi. Which means its more like Kawhi and role players vs a younger Randle and a better supporting cast. Because Kawhi will be more expensive. Keep the best players in the rotation. Add Lonzo, maybe another good player. Already explained why Im against what likely could mean a max deal for Kawhi.

You may not agree with my take, but it doesnt rise to the level of this thread taking a sharp turn anywhere near preposterous.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:Kawhi is a SF

Giddy plays PG for his team

I know. I see a chemistry problem, their games are so similar. If we got Kawhi, Randle would not be the right option at PF IMO. We would need a big who doesnt touch the ball as much. Obi (if he keeps progressing) would be a better fit. With Lonzo's ability to find cutting teammates.

Think we could better use the cap space to keep most of the rotation we have.

As I said about Giddey, it was a quick look. I see more of a point forward (in a pinch) in the NBA.

Use cap space on Kawhi or keep the rotation players we have right now would not have been the turning point I would have imagined the thread to reach.

Wouldnt have imagined this conversation taking such a douchey turn Martin. WTF?

Randle is 3 years younger, more durable, better orchestrator. All Star. How did the Clips do last playoffs? Did Kawhi put them over the top? The rotation we have, with the addition of Ball, and another difference maker, might be good enough to challenge a Nets squad that has a lot of trouble staying on the court for very long.

Maxing out Kawhi when he's pushing 30 is not a good idea. Doubt he will come to NY for just a couple of years, at 30. Might be his last big payday.

Melo wasnt on Kawhi's level. But that near max re-up, and the injuries, cost us. Dont want to see it happen again.

Oh yeah, how did it become douchey?

Or did you expect that making the type of statement that you did can’t be brought to light or questioned?

Kawhi or resign who with cap space? Burks, Bullock, Rose, Frank, Noel, Taj? Who?

And why do you think that just because Kawhi didn’t carry his team to finals last year - as he had done just the previous year for a ring - diminishes him as one of the best 2-way players in the league?

Do not deny your douchery sir. It is unbecoming.

Suggesting that I made a thread altering comment.

Look at how you keep framing my statement.

"Role players or Kawhi" pure douchery!

You're leaving out that I dont believe Randle will work with Kawhi. Which means its more like Kawhi and role players vs a younger Randle and a better supporting cast. Because Kawhi will be more expensive. Keep the best players in the rotation. Add Lonzo, maybe another good player. Already explained why Im against what likely could mean a max deal for Kawhi.

You may not agree with my take, but it doesnt rise to the level of this thread taking a sharp turn anywhere near preposterous.

I find it more idiotic than preposterous. I don't think there would be any GM in the league that would agree with your take.

And yes you did absolutely suggest that using the cap space on resigning current roster was better spent than on Kawhi, regardless of your thoughts on Randle and Kawhi sharing the court at the same time. Let us know if you still hold to that.

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:Kawhi is a SF

Giddy plays PG for his team

I know. I see a chemistry problem, their games are so similar. If we got Kawhi, Randle would not be the right option at PF IMO. We would need a big who doesnt touch the ball as much. Obi (if he keeps progressing) would be a better fit. With Lonzo's ability to find cutting teammates.

Think we could better use the cap space to keep most of the rotation we have.

As I said about Giddey, it was a quick look. I see more of a point forward (in a pinch) in the NBA.

Use cap space on Kawhi or keep the rotation players we have right now would not have been the turning point I would have imagined the thread to reach.

Wouldnt have imagined this conversation taking such a douchey turn Martin. WTF?

Randle is 3 years younger, more durable, better orchestrator. All Star. How did the Clips do last playoffs? Did Kawhi put them over the top? The rotation we have, with the addition of Ball, and another difference maker, might be good enough to challenge a Nets squad that has a lot of trouble staying on the court for very long.

Maxing out Kawhi when he's pushing 30 is not a good idea. Doubt he will come to NY for just a couple of years, at 30. Might be his last big payday.

Melo wasnt on Kawhi's level. But that near max re-up, and the injuries, cost us. Dont want to see it happen again.

Oh yeah, how did it become douchey?

Or did you expect that making the type of statement that you did can’t be brought to light or questioned?

Kawhi or resign who with cap space? Burks, Bullock, Rose, Frank, Noel, Taj? Who?

And why do you think that just because Kawhi didn’t carry his team to finals last year - as he had done just the previous year for a ring - diminishes him as one of the best 2-way players in the league?

Do not deny your douchery sir. It is unbecoming.

Suggesting that I made a thread altering comment.

Look at how you keep framing my statement.

"Role players or Kawhi" pure douchery!

You're leaving out that I dont believe Randle will work with Kawhi. Which means its more like Kawhi and role players vs a younger Randle and a better supporting cast. Because Kawhi will be more expensive. Keep the best players in the rotation. Add Lonzo, maybe another good player. Already explained why Im against what likely could mean a max deal for Kawhi.

You may not agree with my take, but it doesnt rise to the level of this thread taking a sharp turn anywhere near preposterous.

I find it more idiotic than preposterous. I don't think there would be any GM in the league that would agree with your take.

And yes you did absolutely suggest that using the cap space on resigning current roster was better spent than on Kawhi, regardless of your thoughts on Randle and Kawhi sharing the court at the same time. Let us know if you still hold to that.

Not idiotic at 30 years old, with all the wear and tear on his body. Its like you were in a self induced coma, for every max deal the Knicks gave to a player on the wrong side of 30, with too much wear and tear on his body.

Randle is playing at a high level. High enough for you not to sound so high and mighty. How is RJ doing these days genius?

He’s actually rich man’s Jimmy Butler. Imagine him under Thibs.

Kawhi with max years, max dollars, at his age, and mileage. Would likely cost us in missed games. Diminishing returns as the seasons go by. Knicks dont have to sign aging stars to max deals anymore.

Sure Kawhi is playing at a high level now. So were the other aging stars we signed to max deals at the time. Hope Rose doesnt repeat the mistakes of his predecessors.

xavier wrote:I think the chances of Kawhi leaving LA are almost nil so all of this is hypothetical anyway, but it’s fascinating to me that there is someone who thinks we don’t need Kawhi.

He’s actually rich man’s Jimmy Butler. Imagine him under Thibs.

I would take Kawhi in a heartbeat. A micro-second. If I had to predict any possible harm, it would be that his demand for special treatment in LA wouldn’t fly here and even if he didn’t ask for special treatment, there would be some lingering attitude. That said, it would be dumb not to try and make it work sans the special treatment.

xavier wrote:I think the chances of Kawhi leaving LA are almost nil so all of this is hypothetical anyway, but it’s fascinating to me that there is someone who thinks we don’t need Kawhi.

He’s actually rich man’s Jimmy Butler. Imagine him under Thibs.

Agree. There is zero chance A. Kawhi leaves LA and B he comes to the Knicks.

Think different points are being argued. Think it is a valid point to be concerned with Kahwi being over 30 and that we would need to have a valid plan as to who would be a good fit with him. Also understand fans fear of Knicks past luck with high priced FAs. However, despite those concerns feel that "IF" there was a chance to sign Kawhi, you absolutely take it. No matter what the casualties of our current FA resigning's are. Kawhi has proved for years that he can take a decent team to the finals. He is and has been a different level player. Probably one of the best in the world. If you look at last year in the bubble year, the Clips were still ranked 2nd in offense and 5th in defense. Despite playing in a tough West. They were beat by a hot Nuggets team in a seventh game where Murray went 'god mode". Not to mention that I feel PG is not a good fit along side him. Nor was their roster well put together. As it also lacked chemistry. Passing up on Kahwi would be like passing up on LBJ last year because of same concerns.

With that said. Considering the thread topic is about"Lonzo being the answer", don't see a problem saying that he is not and we should stick with what we have, move up in draft and wait for a true difference maker. But again "IF" Kahwi is available and willing, feel he is exactly that. IMO

Id much rather wait and try to sign Zion. RJ's play is a great calling card. Our window would be huge. With Kawhi Im guessing a couple of years. Short term deal, yes. Long term deal, hard pass.

I’d like to take flyers on guys I liked in college. Justice Winslow. Cam Reddish. Willie Cauley-Stein. These guys haven’t been doing so well at the NBA level but still get after it on D. Not sure about the injury concerns. But would love to see what this coaching staff can do here. Probably a hard sell since it would hard work to get them into the rotation.

Wouldn’t be surprised if we tried to sign Evan Fournier. I don’t really think Kawhi is coming to NY. Kelly Oubre is another strong defensive option. His lack of of a 3 overshadows his D. I note that the Ws wouldn’t accept a Ball for Oubre trade.

Ball
Barrett
Fournier and/or Oubre
Randle
Robinson

Resign Rose, Gibson, Noel and Bullock

You still have draft picks and have the rights to FN if you make a QO to him.

I’m not against resigning Payton. But I think it has to be Payton or Rose.

EwingsGlass wrote:I am pretty much all in on Lonzo.

I’d like to take flyers on guys I liked in college. Justice Winslow. Cam Reddish. Willie Cauley-Stein. These guys haven’t been doing so well at the NBA level but still get after it on D. Not sure about the injury concerns. But would love to see what this coaching staff can do here. Probably a hard sell since it would hard work to get them into the rotation.

Wouldn’t be surprised if we tried to sign Evan Fournier. I don’t really think Kawhi is coming to NY. Kelly Oubre is another strong defensive option. His lack of of a 3 overshadows his D. I note that the Ws wouldn’t accept a Ball for Oubre trade.

Ball
Barrett
Fournier and/or Oubre
Randle
Robinson

Resign Rose, Gibson, Noel and Bullock

You still have draft picks and have the rights to FN if you make a QO to him.

I’m not against resigning Payton. But I think it has to be Payton or Rose.

No Burks? I want to upgrade the position as well. But Burks would really help solidify the second unit.

GustavBahler wrote:Sure Kawhi is playing at a high level now. So were the other aging stars we signed to max deals at the time. Hope Rose doesnt repeat the mistakes of his predecessors.

Who exactly were those stars?

Because I don’t remember a single star like that coming to NY. The biggest star was Amare who came because no other team wanted to give him a guaranteed contract.

We didn’t have a player of Kawhi caliber since Ewing.

Kudos to Melo and Randle, but they're not even close to that class.

xavier wrote:I think the chances of Kawhi leaving LA are almost nil so all of this is hypothetical anyway, but it’s fascinating to me that there is someone who thinks we don’t need Kawhi.

He’s actually rich man’s Jimmy Butler. Imagine him under Thibs.

He’s not leaving LA ever. He’s from there and can get Max contract from the clippers

GustavBahler wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I am pretty much all in on Lonzo.

I’d like to take flyers on guys I liked in college. Justice Winslow. Cam Reddish. Willie Cauley-Stein. These guys haven’t been doing so well at the NBA level but still get after it on D. Not sure about the injury concerns. But would love to see what this coaching staff can do here. Probably a hard sell since it would hard work to get them into the rotation.

Wouldn’t be surprised if we tried to sign Evan Fournier. I don’t really think Kawhi is coming to NY. Kelly Oubre is another strong defensive option. His lack of of a 3 overshadows his D. I note that the Ws wouldn’t accept a Ball for Oubre trade.

Ball
Barrett
Fournier and/or Oubre
Randle
Robinson

Resign Rose, Gibson, Noel and Bullock

You still have draft picks and have the rights to FN if you make a QO to him.

I’m not against resigning Payton. But I think it has to be Payton or Rose.

No Burks? I want to upgrade the position as well. But Burks would really help solidify the second unit.

Burks you keep around. He’s always going to be a good jump shooter off the bench

xavier wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Sure Kawhi is playing at a high level now. So were the other aging stars we signed to max deals at the time. Hope Rose doesnt repeat the mistakes of his predecessors.

Who exactly were those stars?

Because I don’t remember a single star like that coming to NY. The biggest star was Amare who came because no other team wanted to give him a guaranteed contract.

We didn’t have a player of Kawhi caliber since Ewing.

Kudos to Melo and Randle, but they're not even close to that class.

"Like that"? Your mixing apples and oranges again. Its not how good he is, its how long he can play that well.

Melo, Amare, Chandler, were all pushing 30 when they got max or near max deals. You want to quibble over their star status? Be my guest. Im focusing on the ages of these players, when they signed those deals. Thats the important part.

Tyson was DPOY, then he became "Flu Tyson". Amar'e had half an MVP season, then he started falling apart. Melo signed his deal when his days as being one of the more durable players in the league was ending.

None of these players were as good as Leonard. If injuries rob Kawhi of his athleticism, it wont matter. Why a max deal is not a good bet.

So, hopefully we can get him in Free Agency.

We do need a shooter at SG or SF with RJ, probably not a big name but still makes high impact on his us.

The way Thibs has us playing defense, Ball opening the game for others and a new starting scoring SF could really have us comfortable in playoff contention for many years.

Knicksfan wrote:So, some players are pipe dreams. Some could be attainable, like the guy originally this thread was about.

So, hopefully we can get him in Free Agency.

We do need a shooter at SG or SF with RJ, probably not a big name but still makes high impact on his us.

The way Thibs has us playing defense, Ball opening the game for others and a new starting scoring SF could really have us comfortable in playoff contention for many years.

I was hoping we could sign Gary Trent Jr, but don’t think he’s an option now he’s been traded to the raptors

smackeddog wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:So, some players are pipe dreams. Some could be attainable, like the guy originally this thread was about.

So, hopefully we can get him in Free Agency.

We do need a shooter at SG or SF with RJ, probably not a big name but still makes high impact on his us.

The way Thibs has us playing defense, Ball opening the game for others and a new starting scoring SF could really have us comfortable in playoff contention for many years.

I was hoping we could sign Gary Trent Jr, but don’t think he’s an option now he’s been traded to the raptors

GustavBahler wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I am pretty much all in on Lonzo.

I’d like to take flyers on guys I liked in college. Justice Winslow. Cam Reddish. Willie Cauley-Stein. These guys haven’t been doing so well at the NBA level but still get after it on D. Not sure about the injury concerns. But would love to see what this coaching staff can do here. Probably a hard sell since it would hard work to get them into the rotation.

Wouldn’t be surprised if we tried to sign Evan Fournier. I don’t really think Kawhi is coming to NY. Kelly Oubre is another strong defensive option. His lack of of a 3 overshadows his D. I note that the Ws wouldn’t accept a Ball for Oubre trade.

Ball
Barrett
Fournier and/or Oubre
Randle
Robinson

Resign Rose, Gibson, Noel and Bullock

You still have draft picks and have the rights to FN if you make a QO to him.

I’m not against resigning Payton. But I think it has to be Payton or Rose.

No Burks? I want to upgrade the position as well. But Burks would really help solidify the second unit.

I am not anti-Burks. I am open to a re-union. I have some thoughts on that though.

First, I get the sense that someone will overpay Burks with the MLE and it shouldn't be us. At the right (same?) price, it could make sense.

Second, although I do think Burks is solid in the bench scorer role, I don't really think him, Rose and Quick co-exist so well. Not enough balls to be had in that second unit. So, if you have Rose, Quick, Toppin and Noel, I kind of think Bullock is the better player with what NY is doing, a guy that doesn't need the ball but can drain the three. Not sure you bring back both Burks and Bullock while Rose and IQ are on the roster. I am presuming Rose is not the odd one out. I could see an IQ Burks Bullock Toppin Noel second unit though.

Third, in the Bullock/Burks debate, there are also other guys out there, like Cam Reddish that are worth a look. When healthy, Cam takes the toughest defensive assignments for the Hawks. Lonzo does the same for the Pels. Cam has had terrible offensive stats since coming to the NBA but I have a hard time believing this is what he is. In college, we all saw All Star upside and potentially a higher ceiling than RJ in Cam. I think putting them back together would be good for Cam and might pay real dividends for us. Especially when Zion hits FA. So, the question becomes whether there are other players with upside that can fill the same role cheaper - especially if I don't need the scoring punch?

Does 14+ppg/6apg/4rpg/42 fg%/38 3p%/75 ft%/1.5spg sound like max material? He may not be "worth" that now, but you figure in order to get him, one, but perhaps two things need to happen:
1) you need to overpay him to make the Pelicans nervous about signing him at that price.
2) you can make the Pelicans feel even more nervous by having Ball force the issue. Forcing the sign and trade to the Knicks (his dad has already proven to be a pain in the ass, so this seems possible) saves the Pelicans some face and gets them some return, even if it's mostly a trade exception.