Knicks · Free agency can't come soon enough, Lonzo Ball is the answer (page 7)
GustavBahler wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Knixkik wrote:Ball didn’t look great today. But the things he does still would really help this team. Rose looked great today finally.Agreed. That said, back from injury and a PG that no longer has the ball in his hands wasn’t easy for him to do much in that lineup where they aren’t using him to initiate offense. That entire Pelicans team has talent but not a lot of teamwork.
Definitely didn’t leave me screaming for Ball, but makes me wonder what Thibs could do with that guy. He has the IQ, size and the skill to be an All Star.
Him not having the ball in his hands for stretches isn't an aberration. That's where he is right now. They've found more success with other guys initiating the offense. He's a secondary, tertiary ball handler.Disagree. Its more about his multi-generational teammate who the coach wants running the team at some point. As well as a wing in Ingram who can also handle the rock. Not sure why this part is so easily dismissed by some.
Besides Lonzo plays too fast for them. He's usually a step faster than his teammates. Some of us see Lonzo on a squad that can push the tempo, with the right PG.
Believe part of it is that Lonzo makes tough passes look deceptively easy. Mitch/Noel/Obi the whole team, would all benefit from Lonzo's pin point accuracy.
Lonzo isnt like the current crop of stud PGs like Morant, with off the charts athleticism. More of a throwback. Some have mentioned Jason Kidd. Doesnt have the all around game, but Ball has the court vision. I'll take that.
I’m with Gustav. Ingram and Williamson really need the ball in their hands to play. Doesn’t leav a lot of room for Ball to operate. The Knicks seem to move a bit better off the ball. Randle and Barrett may be the same, but Barrett moves without the Ball. So does Randle. They both float out to the 3.
I’m not as crazy about Williamson as most people. Kind of feel like his body will keep catching up with him.
I’d still go for Ball, if only for his defense and hope that Jalen Johnson’s draft stock plummeted enough for the Knicks to swoop in and get him — even if they have to package picks to move up.
I think the Knicks could have a very opportunistic offseason and could make a couple splashes no one expected.
EwingsGlass wrote:GustavBahler wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Knixkik wrote:Ball didn’t look great today. But the things he does still would really help this team. Rose looked great today finally.Agreed. That said, back from injury and a PG that no longer has the ball in his hands wasn’t easy for him to do much in that lineup where they aren’t using him to initiate offense. That entire Pelicans team has talent but not a lot of teamwork.
Definitely didn’t leave me screaming for Ball, but makes me wonder what Thibs could do with that guy. He has the IQ, size and the skill to be an All Star.
Him not having the ball in his hands for stretches isn't an aberration. That's where he is right now. They've found more success with other guys initiating the offense. He's a secondary, tertiary ball handler.Disagree. Its more about his multi-generational teammate who the coach wants running the team at some point. As well as a wing in Ingram who can also handle the rock. Not sure why this part is so easily dismissed by some.
Besides Lonzo plays too fast for them. He's usually a step faster than his teammates. Some of us see Lonzo on a squad that can push the tempo, with the right PG.
Believe part of it is that Lonzo makes tough passes look deceptively easy. Mitch/Noel/Obi the whole team, would all benefit from Lonzo's pin point accuracy.
Lonzo isnt like the current crop of stud PGs like Morant, with off the charts athleticism. More of a throwback. Some have mentioned Jason Kidd. Doesnt have the all around game, but Ball has the court vision. I'll take that.
I’m with Gustav. Ingram and Williamson really need the ball in their hands to play. Doesn’t leav a lot of room for Ball to operate. The Knicks seem to move a bit better off the ball. Randle and Barrett may be the same, but Barrett moves without the Ball. So does Randle. They both float out to the 3.
I’m not as crazy about Williamson as most people. Kind of feel like his body will keep catching up with him.
I’d still go for Ball, if only for his defense and hope that Jalen Johnson’s draft stock plummeted enough for the Knicks to swoop in and get him — even if they have to package picks to move up.
I think the Knicks could have a very opportunistic offseason and could make a couple splashes no one expected.
What about his stint with the Lakers? Dealt with the same issues. When the point Zion experiment was implemented, it was implied that it was done because the Pelicans did not have a guard who consistently initiate the offense.
BigDaddyG wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:GustavBahler wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Knixkik wrote:Ball didn’t look great today. But the things he does still would really help this team. Rose looked great today finally.Agreed. That said, back from injury and a PG that no longer has the ball in his hands wasn’t easy for him to do much in that lineup where they aren’t using him to initiate offense. That entire Pelicans team has talent but not a lot of teamwork.
Definitely didn’t leave me screaming for Ball, but makes me wonder what Thibs could do with that guy. He has the IQ, size and the skill to be an All Star.
Him not having the ball in his hands for stretches isn't an aberration. That's where he is right now. They've found more success with other guys initiating the offense. He's a secondary, tertiary ball handler.Disagree. Its more about his multi-generational teammate who the coach wants running the team at some point. As well as a wing in Ingram who can also handle the rock. Not sure why this part is so easily dismissed by some.
Besides Lonzo plays too fast for them. He's usually a step faster than his teammates. Some of us see Lonzo on a squad that can push the tempo, with the right PG.
Believe part of it is that Lonzo makes tough passes look deceptively easy. Mitch/Noel/Obi the whole team, would all benefit from Lonzo's pin point accuracy.
Lonzo isnt like the current crop of stud PGs like Morant, with off the charts athleticism. More of a throwback. Some have mentioned Jason Kidd. Doesnt have the all around game, but Ball has the court vision. I'll take that.
I’m with Gustav. Ingram and Williamson really need the ball in their hands to play. Doesn’t leav a lot of room for Ball to operate. The Knicks seem to move a bit better off the ball. Randle and Barrett may be the same, but Barrett moves without the Ball. So does Randle. They both float out to the 3.
I’m not as crazy about Williamson as most people. Kind of feel like his body will keep catching up with him.
I’d still go for Ball, if only for his defense and hope that Jalen Johnson’s draft stock plummeted enough for the Knicks to swoop in and get him — even if they have to package picks to move up.
I think the Knicks could have a very opportunistic offseason and could make a couple splashes no one expected.
What about his stint with the Lakers? Dealt with the same issues. When the point Zion experiment was implemented, it was implied that it was done because the Pelicans did not have a guard who consistently initiate the offense.
Do you remember how dysfunctional the Lakers were back then? The team was very young. Learning at the same time. Not to mention Lonzo's early foot problems. Which probably had to do with his Dad's shoes. Which apparently kept falling apart. Missed a lot of games. Valuable PT.
Lonzo has been getting better every year. One thing he really hasnt had as a pro (for very long) are the keys to the offense. In part because of the roster construction. At one time Lonzo wasnt ready. Looks ready now. We need a real floor general. Lonzo fits the bill.
GustavBahler wrote:What worries me is a lot of Pelican fans think Lonzo sucks. They see him play every game so that gives me pause. Kinda like another team being interested in DSJ when we knew he was trash.BigDaddyG wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:GustavBahler wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Knixkik wrote:Ball didn’t look great today. But the things he does still would really help this team. Rose looked great today finally.Agreed. That said, back from injury and a PG that no longer has the ball in his hands wasn’t easy for him to do much in that lineup where they aren’t using him to initiate offense. That entire Pelicans team has talent but not a lot of teamwork.
Definitely didn’t leave me screaming for Ball, but makes me wonder what Thibs could do with that guy. He has the IQ, size and the skill to be an All Star.
Him not having the ball in his hands for stretches isn't an aberration. That's where he is right now. They've found more success with other guys initiating the offense. He's a secondary, tertiary ball handler.Disagree. Its more about his multi-generational teammate who the coach wants running the team at some point. As well as a wing in Ingram who can also handle the rock. Not sure why this part is so easily dismissed by some.
Besides Lonzo plays too fast for them. He's usually a step faster than his teammates. Some of us see Lonzo on a squad that can push the tempo, with the right PG.
Believe part of it is that Lonzo makes tough passes look deceptively easy. Mitch/Noel/Obi the whole team, would all benefit from Lonzo's pin point accuracy.
Lonzo isnt like the current crop of stud PGs like Morant, with off the charts athleticism. More of a throwback. Some have mentioned Jason Kidd. Doesnt have the all around game, but Ball has the court vision. I'll take that.
I’m with Gustav. Ingram and Williamson really need the ball in their hands to play. Doesn’t leav a lot of room for Ball to operate. The Knicks seem to move a bit better off the ball. Randle and Barrett may be the same, but Barrett moves without the Ball. So does Randle. They both float out to the 3.
I’m not as crazy about Williamson as most people. Kind of feel like his body will keep catching up with him.
I’d still go for Ball, if only for his defense and hope that Jalen Johnson’s draft stock plummeted enough for the Knicks to swoop in and get him — even if they have to package picks to move up.
I think the Knicks could have a very opportunistic offseason and could make a couple splashes no one expected.
What about his stint with the Lakers? Dealt with the same issues. When the point Zion experiment was implemented, it was implied that it was done because the Pelicans did not have a guard who consistently initiate the offense.Do you remember how dysfunctional the Lakers were back then? The team was very young. Learning at the same time. Not to mention Lonzo's early foot problems. Which probably had to do with his Dad's shoes. Which apparently kept falling apart. Missed a lot of games. Valuable PT.
Lonzo has been getting better every year. One thing he really hasnt had as a pro (for very long) are the keys to the offense. In part because of the roster construction. At one time Lonzo wasnt ready. Looks ready now. We need a real floor general. Lonzo fits the bill.
I don’t understand why Knicks fans overate him and also are willing to give him a max contract so New Orleans doesn’t match.
He’s average.
Welpee wrote:GustavBahler wrote:What worries me is a lot of Pelican fans think Lonzo sucks. They see him play every game so that gives me pause. Kinda like another team being interested in DSJ when we knew he was trash.BigDaddyG wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:GustavBahler wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Knixkik wrote:Ball didn’t look great today. But the things he does still would really help this team. Rose looked great today finally.Agreed. That said, back from injury and a PG that no longer has the ball in his hands wasn’t easy for him to do much in that lineup where they aren’t using him to initiate offense. That entire Pelicans team has talent but not a lot of teamwork.
Definitely didn’t leave me screaming for Ball, but makes me wonder what Thibs could do with that guy. He has the IQ, size and the skill to be an All Star.
Him not having the ball in his hands for stretches isn't an aberration. That's where he is right now. They've found more success with other guys initiating the offense. He's a secondary, tertiary ball handler.Disagree. Its more about his multi-generational teammate who the coach wants running the team at some point. As well as a wing in Ingram who can also handle the rock. Not sure why this part is so easily dismissed by some.
Besides Lonzo plays too fast for them. He's usually a step faster than his teammates. Some of us see Lonzo on a squad that can push the tempo, with the right PG.
Believe part of it is that Lonzo makes tough passes look deceptively easy. Mitch/Noel/Obi the whole team, would all benefit from Lonzo's pin point accuracy.
Lonzo isnt like the current crop of stud PGs like Morant, with off the charts athleticism. More of a throwback. Some have mentioned Jason Kidd. Doesnt have the all around game, but Ball has the court vision. I'll take that.
I’m with Gustav. Ingram and Williamson really need the ball in their hands to play. Doesn’t leav a lot of room for Ball to operate. The Knicks seem to move a bit better off the ball. Randle and Barrett may be the same, but Barrett moves without the Ball. So does Randle. They both float out to the 3.
I’m not as crazy about Williamson as most people. Kind of feel like his body will keep catching up with him.
I’d still go for Ball, if only for his defense and hope that Jalen Johnson’s draft stock plummeted enough for the Knicks to swoop in and get him — even if they have to package picks to move up.
I think the Knicks could have a very opportunistic offseason and could make a couple splashes no one expected.
What about his stint with the Lakers? Dealt with the same issues. When the point Zion experiment was implemented, it was implied that it was done because the Pelicans did not have a guard who consistently initiate the offense.Do you remember how dysfunctional the Lakers were back then? The team was very young. Learning at the same time. Not to mention Lonzo's early foot problems. Which probably had to do with his Dad's shoes. Which apparently kept falling apart. Missed a lot of games. Valuable PT.
Lonzo has been getting better every year. One thing he really hasnt had as a pro (for very long) are the keys to the offense. In part because of the roster construction. At one time Lonzo wasnt ready. Looks ready now. We need a real floor general. Lonzo fits the bill.
Wasnt trash his rookie season. Cascading injuries, a death in the family. Got to him. From an athleticism standpoint, doesnt look like the same player. Limits his options on the court.
Dont believe Pels fans see a player, who is on a team, going in a different direction. They just see the bad fit with Zion, and Ingram. Lonzo needs an offense to run, to make the most of his skill set. Off guard too often, ain't it.
HoustonSprewell84 wrote:Ball is not a initiator, he wasn’t in LA and he isn’t now.I don’t understand why Knicks fans overate him and also are willing to give him a max contract so New Orleans doesn’t match.
He’s average.
Agree
I’d love to have Jalen Brunson
I want nothing to do with ball.
We have Derrick rose 3 draft picks and cap space. I’d rather pay a 1 year contract to a vet pg and save the bigger money.
His offense is solidly improving, including off the ball catch and shoot.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lon...
He is taking difficult defensive matchups regularly.
https://lonzowire.usatoday.com/2021/02/2...
It’s weird. You can’t call Lonzo Ball underrated cause he has so much attention on him. But to the extent he has been “written off”, that appear to be premature.
He seems like a prime candidate to take the PG role in NY.
My second choice is Devonte Graham. Though Devonte may actually be my first choice - Lonzo is longer and I like that additional length in challenging those 3s.
BRIGGS wrote:HoustonSprewell84 wrote:Ball is not a initiator, he wasn’t in LA and he isn’t now.I don’t understand why Knicks fans overate him and also are willing to give him a max contract so New Orleans doesn’t match.
He’s average.
Agree
I’d love to have Jalen Brunson
I want nothing to do with ball.
We have Derrick rose 3 draft picks and cap space. I’d rather pay a 1 year contract to a vet pg and save the bigger money.
I think I prefer Graham to Brunson. Feel like Charlotte is much less likely to match than Dallas with Ball and Frazier already in line.
BRIGGS wrote:HoustonSprewell84 wrote:Ball is not a initiator, he wasn’t in LA and he isn’t now.I don’t understand why Knicks fans overate him and also are willing to give him a max contract so New Orleans doesn’t match.
He’s average.
Agree
I’d love to have Jalen Brunson
I want nothing to do with ball.
We have Derrick rose 3 draft picks and cap space. I’d rather pay a 1 year contract to a vet pg and save the bigger money.
Lonzo was pushing the tempo faster than his teammates could handle. The speed of his decision making is on an elite level. Not just fast, but accurate passes. Havent even mentioned his shooting and D.
Magic thinks he has the highest BB IQ of any PG in the league.
You keep adding these concepts and you have to wonder what people are trying to talk themselves out of Lonzo Ball. The kid is working hard, making strides, playing defense, shooting the ball better, being productive with and without the ball in his hands and playing defense.
Meanwhile, folks don’t want him cause they want to pick out a player that maybe someone hasn’t heard the name before.
I wouldn’t hesitate to pull the trigger on Ball.
EwingsGlass wrote:https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2937...Magic thinks he has the highest BB IQ of any PG in the league.
You keep adding these concepts and you have to wonder what people are trying to talk themselves out of Lonzo Ball. The kid is working hard, making strides, playing defense, shooting the ball better, being productive with and without the ball in his hands and playing defense.
Meanwhile, folks don’t want him cause they want to pick out a player that maybe someone hasn’t heard the name before.
I wouldn’t hesitate to pull the trigger on Ball.
No one is saying he's a bad player. I wouldn't mind having him. The question is whether or not he can be the engine on your ball club and if he's worth a huge overpay. I've yet to see strong case that would lead me to say yes to any of those questions.
BigDaddyG wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2937...Magic thinks he has the highest BB IQ of any PG in the league.
You keep adding these concepts and you have to wonder what people are trying to talk themselves out of Lonzo Ball. The kid is working hard, making strides, playing defense, shooting the ball better, being productive with and without the ball in his hands and playing defense.
Meanwhile, folks don’t want him cause they want to pick out a player that maybe someone hasn’t heard the name before.
I wouldn’t hesitate to pull the trigger on Ball.
No one is saying he's a bad player. I wouldn't mind having him. The question is whether or not he can be the engine on your ball club and if he's worth a huge overpay. I've yet to see strong case that would lead me to say yes to any of those questions.
Why are we discussing overpaying him?
1) He is shooting 38% from 3
2) He is taking the toughest defensive assignments in the league
3) He has among the highest BB IQ in the league
4) He has great positional size
5) He is 23 year old.
He doesn’t even have to be the engine of the team, I mean, if you just have him on the court guarding the PG and initiating the transition offense, you can still run your half court set through Randle.
Only knocks on him is his outspoken dad, his injury history and his Restricted Free Agency.
So, all we are really talking about is price.
I have him at $18mm comfortably.
EwingsGlass wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2937...Magic thinks he has the highest BB IQ of any PG in the league.
You keep adding these concepts and you have to wonder what people are trying to talk themselves out of Lonzo Ball. The kid is working hard, making strides, playing defense, shooting the ball better, being productive with and without the ball in his hands and playing defense.
Meanwhile, folks don’t want him cause they want to pick out a player that maybe someone hasn’t heard the name before.
I wouldn’t hesitate to pull the trigger on Ball.
No one is saying he's a bad player. I wouldn't mind having him. The question is whether or not he can be the engine on your ball club and if he's worth a huge overpay. I've yet to see strong case that would lead me to say yes to any of those questions.
Why are we discussing overpaying him?
1) He is shooting 38% from 3
2) He is taking the toughest defensive assignments in the league
3) He has among the highest BB IQ in the league
4) He has great positional size
5) He is 23 year old.He doesn’t even have to be the engine of the team, I mean, if you just have him on the court guarding the PG and initiating the transition offense, you can still run your half court set through Randle.
Only knocks on him is his outspoken dad, his injury history and his Restricted Free Agency.
So, all we are really talking about is price.
I have him at $18mm comfortably.
1) That's a nice skill to have is you can't create.
2)Yes, he's a good defensive player.
3) Debatable, especially after we just saw the play he made earlier today.
4) He's not a point guard and he doesn't use his size to punish defenders in the paint anyway.What does it matter?
5) Yes, he does have youth on his side.
I still don't see the urgency to overpay him.
2) We agree
3) Small sample set relying on one play. Lonzo has a high BB IQ. That play broke down when Bledsoe missed the foul. Upgrading from Elf, you are adding a transition floor general that can handle key defensive assignments.
4) He is a PG that can play SG. I don’t need him punishing the paint, we have Barrett for that. I’m looking for 3 and D.
5) He still has room to grow.
You are using the term “overpay” as though it were inherent to the transaction. What price would make you feel comfortable?
BRIGGS wrote:HoustonSprewell84 wrote:Ball is not a initiator, he wasn’t in LA and he isn’t now.I don’t understand why Knicks fans overate him and also are willing to give him a max contract so New Orleans doesn’t match.
He’s average.
Agree
I’d love to have Jalen Brunson
I want nothing to do with ball.
We have Derrick rose 3 draft picks and cap space. I’d rather pay a 1 year contract to a vet pg and save the bigger money.
As long as its not Payton
Been a fan of Brunson since 'Nova. He's not a FA until next summer...
HoustonSprewell84 wrote:Ball is not a initiator, he wasn’t in LA and he isn’t now.I don’t understand why Knicks fans overate him and also are willing to give him a max contract so New Orleans doesn’t match.
He’s average.
Not true...Lonzo initiated the offense in his 1st year in L.A. Averaged 10 and 7 assists. The very next year, the Lakers signed James and they started playing LeBron-Ball. Now, he's playing with another generational talent in Zion who has also taken the ball out of Lonzo's hands. With that said, I'm on the fence with Lonzo. Wouldn't mind signing him but not sure i want him at that price tag.
EwingsGlass wrote:BRIGGS wrote:HoustonSprewell84 wrote:Ball is not a initiator, he wasn’t in LA and he isn’t now.I don’t understand why Knicks fans overate him and also are willing to give him a max contract so New Orleans doesn’t match.
He’s average.
Agree
I’d love to have Jalen Brunson
I want nothing to do with ball.
We have Derrick rose 3 draft picks and cap space. I’d rather pay a 1 year contract to a vet pg and save the bigger money.
I think I prefer Graham to Brunson. Feel like Charlotte is much less likely to match than Dallas with Ball and Frazier already in line.
Graham is an undersized, lead guard and he is really struggling with his shot this year compared to last year. I feel like if we were to give Quickly the same minutes as Graham, he can get similar numbers, if not better. Also, can't see Thibs wanting a 6'1 pg on the defensive end.
Uptown wrote:HoustonSprewell84 wrote:Ball is not a initiator, he wasn’t in LA and he isn’t now.I don’t understand why Knicks fans overate him and also are willing to give him a max contract so New Orleans doesn’t match.
He’s average.
Not true...Lonzo initiated the offense in his 1st year in L.A. Averaged 10 and 7 assists. The very next year, the Lakers signed James and they started playing LeBron-Ball. Now, he's playing with another generational talent in Zion who has also taken the ball out of Lonzo's hands. With that said, I'm on the fence with Lonzo. Wouldn't mind signing him but not sure i want him at that price tag.
Yes and no. Ball's detractors complained that he pretty much did nothing in the half court his rookie year. He was as much of an initiator in the half court as Frank. And Zion isn't the only one whose taken the ball out of Lonzo's hands. If you're having a hard time beating out Eric Bledsoe, than it's time to face facts. You're not a full-time PG in the league.
EwingsGlass wrote:1) Lack of floor spacing is the #1 knock on Elf. A 38% 3&D PG is all I “need” to feel upgraded at PG.
2) We agree
3) Small sample set relying on one play. Lonzo has a high BB IQ. That play broke down when Bledsoe missed the foul. Upgrading from Elf, you are adding a transition floor general that can handle key defensive assignments.
4) He is a PG that can play SG. I don’t need him punishing the paint, we have Barrett for that. I’m looking for 3 and D.
5) He still has room to grow.You are using the term “overpay” as though it were inherent to the transaction. What price would make you feel comfortable?
I dunno, a young 3&D guard with some secondary ball handling skills? I'd say $15M per sounds about right.
It might make sense to see if they can draft a PG. They got two first.
Maybe keep some of the role players, Draft a PG, and save money to chase Lavine or Beal in 2022