Knicks · shorten the playoff rotation, bench Elf and start Burks (page 3)

SupremeCommander wrote:

ToddTT wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:If we're being honest I think we don't have much at PG. Game to game I don't think you can count on 35 minutes with Rose. So, I kinda like give Elf a few minutes and then depending on how the game is unfolding you cherry pick the right player. If Rose can go, great, if not then the matchup would dictate who makes the most sense. I think that's exactly what's been happening and I like it

How dare you?!?!?

lol

To be clear, I'll be happy when he gets replaced. I just think we have the most to gain by him getting his shit together. I hate the idea of riding Rose into the ground and tossing the keys to a rookie Game 1 of the playoffs. I love Burks but I want him looking for his shot and even with Randle I want my points to be able to distribute. Who knows maybe the faith in Elf gets rewarded, otherwise the matchup will dictate which of those names make the most sense. I would prefer to take the “closer by committee” approach to who goes in for Elf and I think the flow of the game will dictate that

I pretty much agree with all of this. Would love to see him do well against Trae Young.

Elf knows he is gone. What motivation does he have to play well? His value is zero.

Sambakick wrote:Elf knows he is gone. What motivation does he have to play well? His value is zero.

If he’s over (probably he is, but we don’t know it), what do you mean “what motivation does he have”? Well then he just has the motivation because he has to “earn” new contract with some other team, and how will he earn it if not playing good and hard?

And of course he won’t be a starter elsewhere, but he’s not as bad as one thinks here and he’ll definitely get a chance somewhere.

xavier wrote:

Sambakick wrote:Elf knows he is gone. What motivation does he have to play well? His value is zero.

If he’s over (probably he is, but we don’t know it), what do you mean “what motivation does he have”? Well then he just has the motivation because he has to “earn” new contract with some other team, and how will he earn it if not playing good and hard?

And of course he won’t be a starter elsewhere, but he’s not as bad as one thinks here and he’ll definitely get a chance somewhere.

So he hasn't cared about earning that new contract up til now and he is just waiting for the playoffs to show what he can do? With how he has played he will be lucky to get 2 mil a year.

Sambakick wrote:

xavier wrote:

Sambakick wrote:Elf knows he is gone. What motivation does he have to play well? His value is zero.

If he’s over (probably he is, but we don’t know it), what do you mean “what motivation does he have”? Well then he just has the motivation because he has to “earn” new contract with some other team, and how will he earn it if not playing good and hard?

And of course he won’t be a starter elsewhere, but he’s not as bad as one thinks here and he’ll definitely get a chance somewhere.

So he hasn't cared about earning that new contract up til now and he is just waiting for the playoffs to show what he can do? With how he has played he will be lucky to get 2 mil a year.

The way Elf is playing he’d be lucky to even be in the NBA next year

knicks1248 wrote:I think payton has GIVEN UP, and it's thibs fault, At this point his minutes has dwindled down to token minutes, there was even a time when he had good starts, and either Rose or Burk would still finish, the FANS are killing him, the press is beating THIBS in the head about him starting, and NYK has given every indication (linked to at least 4 pgs rumors)they will move on from him next season.

His morale and confidence is at a career low, you can tell from his body language. Maybe thibs is keeping him in the starting line up to hang what little confidence he has left

I still can’t understand Thibs’ reasoning for continuing to start Elf. I sound like a broken record I don’t care we were down by 8 at the end of the first quarter Elf being on the floor was a reason for it I’m sorry

Start Rose and have IQ and Burks play PG off the bench

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I think payton has GIVEN UP, and it's thibs fault, At this point his minutes has dwindled down to token minutes, there was even a time when he had good starts, and either Rose or Burk would still finish, the FANS are killing him, the press is beating THIBS in the head about him starting, and NYK has given every indication (linked to at least 4 pgs rumors)they will move on from him next season.

His morale and confidence is at a career low, you can tell from his body language. Maybe thibs is keeping him in the starting line up to hang what little confidence he has left

I still can’t understand Thibs’ reasoning for continuing to start Elf. I sound like a broken record I don’t care we were down by 8 at the end of the first quarter Elf being on the floor was a reason for it I’m sorry

Start Rose and have IQ and Burks play PG off the bench

I agree. I'd even give minutes to Frank with Burkes/IQ as the 2nd unit. If you think Frank is a potential stopper, you can't toss him out there at the end of the game and expect him to stop - that is just too hard.

franco12 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I think payton has GIVEN UP, and it's thibs fault, At this point his minutes has dwindled down to token minutes, there was even a time when he had good starts, and either Rose or Burk would still finish, the FANS are killing him, the press is beating THIBS in the head about him starting, and NYK has given every indication (linked to at least 4 pgs rumors)they will move on from him next season.

His morale and confidence is at a career low, you can tell from his body language. Maybe thibs is keeping him in the starting line up to hang what little confidence he has left

I still can’t understand Thibs’ reasoning for continuing to start Elf. I sound like a broken record I don’t care we were down by 8 at the end of the first quarter Elf being on the floor was a reason for it I’m sorry

Start Rose and have IQ and Burks play PG off the bench

I agree. I'd even give minutes to Frank with Burkes/IQ as the 2nd unit. If you think Frank is a potential stopper, you can't toss him out there at the end of the game and expect him to stop - that is just too hard.

In the playoffs Randle, Noel, Barrett, Bullock, Burks, Quickley, Rose, and Gibson are the 8 that should see the minutes. Give Toppin his quick change of pace role and Ntilikina a couple defensive possessions if needed. But this should largely be an 8-man rotation at this point. I would honestly start Burks at PG and use his size against Trae. We don't have anyone who can stay in front of him so go at him with size. Rose and Quickley continue their off-the-bench roles but the starting lineup needs Burks to give more of an offensive boost. We run the risk of slow starts if we don't have another scorer in the starting lineup.

franco12 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I think payton has GIVEN UP, and it's thibs fault, At this point his minutes has dwindled down to token minutes, there was even a time when he had good starts, and either Rose or Burk would still finish, the FANS are killing him, the press is beating THIBS in the head about him starting, and NYK has given every indication (linked to at least 4 pgs rumors)they will move on from him next season.

His morale and confidence is at a career low, you can tell from his body language. Maybe thibs is keeping him in the starting line up to hang what little confidence he has left

I still can’t understand Thibs’ reasoning for continuing to start Elf. I sound like a broken record I don’t care we were down by 8 at the end of the first quarter Elf being on the floor was a reason for it I’m sorry

Start Rose and have IQ and Burks play PG off the bench

I agree. I'd even give minutes to Frank with Burkes/IQ as the 2nd unit. If you think Frank is a potential stopper, you can't toss him out there at the end of the game and expect him to stop - that is just too hard.

In hindsight perhaps Thibs should not have had him playing him that much up. I get he was trying to get Trae to turn it over or make an errant pass. I have to see tape as to how they froze the help defense. few if any can stay in front of Trae. Its not like frank is talking Thibs into letting him play. Maybe he figured he’d pull up for a jumper and ATL crash the boards. That was an option. Again, the lane was wide open. I’m more interested in the reason that happend than lay blame on the help defense on frank or Gibson.

Burks or Rose have to start- pretty clear now. Payton has no confidence.

I was arguing keeping status quo before last night, now it's not a debate...

I’d go with rotation. IQ, Burks, RJ, Randle, Noel. Rose, Frank, Bullocks, Toppin, Gibson.

Out of IQ, Burks, RJ. Whoever Young is guarding is getting featured. Expose him as the defensive liability he is

newyorknewyork wrote:I’d go with rotation. IQ, Burks, RJ, Randle, Noel. Rose, Frank, Bullocks, Toppin, Gibson.

Out of IQ, Burks, RJ. Whoever Young is guarding is getting featured. Expose him as the defensive liability he is

Frank is no better than payton on either end, so i would rather jared harper.. frank will get roasted by Trae because he won't be able to stay in front of him at all, he still passes the ball the minute he crosses the half court line, and TRAE can just relax on defense knowing the guy he's guarding won't ever shoot.

And to be honest we did better by just shorten the roster.

Is it possible that there was some type of "agreement" in place that if Payton resigned for a lesser deal after the Knicks declined to pick up his option last off season, he was promised a starting gig (or at least a starting gig if he could beat out DSJ)? I swear it seems like Thibs is playing Payton out of some obligation versus the merits of his performance.

Think about how many people Thibs has buried on the bench this season (Frank, Knox, DSJ, Rivers), but Payton continues to start?

I know I'm reaching but I'm really struggling to come up with a rational explanation. Just because we've won with Payton starting doesn't mean it's in our best interest to continue to start him.

Nalod wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I think payton has GIVEN UP, and it's thibs fault, At this point his minutes has dwindled down to token minutes, there was even a time when he had good starts, and either Rose or Burk would still finish, the FANS are killing him, the press is beating THIBS in the head about him starting, and NYK has given every indication (linked to at least 4 pgs rumors)they will move on from him next season.

His morale and confidence is at a career low, you can tell from his body language. Maybe thibs is keeping him in the starting line up to hang what little confidence he has left

I still can’t understand Thibs’ reasoning for continuing to start Elf. I sound like a broken record I don’t care we were down by 8 at the end of the first quarter Elf being on the floor was a reason for it I’m sorry

Start Rose and have IQ and Burks play PG off the bench

I agree. I'd even give minutes to Frank with Burkes/IQ as the 2nd unit. If you think Frank is a potential stopper, you can't toss him out there at the end of the game and expect him to stop - that is just too hard.

In hindsight perhaps Thibs should not have had him playing him that much up. I get he was trying to get Trae to turn it over or make an errant pass. I have to see tape as to how they froze the help defense. few if any can stay in front of Trae. Its not like frank is talking Thibs into letting him play. Maybe he figured he’d pull up for a jumper and ATL crash the boards. That was an option. Again, the lane was wide open. I’m more interested in the reason that happend than lay blame on the help defense on frank or Gibson.

Hard to stop Trae when you have not played all game. But this answers some fan's call to have Frank out there just for a stop at the end of a game.

As for thread topic ie Payton's minutes and shorter rotation. Payton played 9 minutes!!!! Do not understand the big hangup about how much he is playing or should not be playing. Thibs has already shown that he is not going to be a major part of the playoff plan. Rose, IQ, Burks are getting most of the minutes. Would agree that maybe we should start Rose or IQ. But how does that affect the second unit? What is the other option? Start Frank? Think that is what most are insinuating. Including Berman. Does that really change things? Dunno. Maybe something to consider. Also, feel that Thibs realizes that he will need the good Payton to be more successful.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I think payton has GIVEN UP, and it's thibs fault, At this point his minutes has dwindled down to token minutes, there was even a time when he had good starts, and either Rose or Burk would still finish, the FANS are killing him, the press is beating THIBS in the head about him starting, and NYK has given every indication (linked to at least 4 pgs rumors)they will move on from him next season.

His morale and confidence is at a career low, you can tell from his body language. Maybe thibs is keeping him in the starting line up to hang what little confidence he has left

I still can’t understand Thibs’ reasoning for continuing to start Elf. I sound like a broken record I don’t care we were down by 8 at the end of the first quarter Elf being on the floor was a reason for it I’m sorry

Start Rose and have IQ and Burks play PG off the bench

I agree. I'd even give minutes to Frank with Burkes/IQ as the 2nd unit. If you think Frank is a potential stopper, you can't toss him out there at the end of the game and expect him to stop - that is just too hard.

In hindsight perhaps Thibs should not have had him playing him that much up. I get he was trying to get Trae to turn it over or make an errant pass. I have to see tape as to how they froze the help defense. few if any can stay in front of Trae. Its not like frank is talking Thibs into letting him play. Maybe he figured he’d pull up for a jumper and ATL crash the boards. That was an option. Again, the lane was wide open. I’m more interested in the reason that happend than lay blame on the help defense on frank or Gibson.

Hard to stop Trae when you have not played all game. But this answers some fan's call to have Frank out there just for a stop at the end of a game.

As for thread topic ie Payton's minutes and shorter rotation. Payton played 9 minutes!!!! Do not understand the big hangup about how much he is playing or should not be playing. Thibs has already shown that he is not going to be a major part of the playoff plan. Rose, IQ, Burks are getting most of the minutes. Would agree that maybe we should start Rose or IQ. But how does that affect the second unit? What is the other option? Start Frank? Think that is what most are insinuating. Including Berman. Does that really change things? Dunno. Maybe something to consider. Also, feel that Thibs realizes that he will need the good Payton to be more successful.

The Knicks are a team with a very tiny margin for error. This was a two point loss. You can point to a bunch of things that could've made a difference in the outcome INCLUDING those 8 empty minutes we got from Payton. And unlike Bullock who also had a rough game but has given us big efforts in the recent past, when was the last time Payton gave us a positive game?

Did Austin Rivers like insult Thibs or something? Because watching him light things up here early in this game, thinking we sure as hell could have used him right about now.

franco12 wrote:Did Austin Rivers like insult Thibs or something? Because watching him light things up here early in this game, thinking we sure as hell could have used him right about now.

Let's not exaggerate. Rivers was brought in here for a role that was later given to Rose. After we traded for Rose, it was clear that Rivers was leaving. That pro flashes here and there, doesn’t mean he would be the solution to our problems. We still have Rose, Burks and IQ who are better than him in guard positions, and Payton would definitely be ahead of him when he's starting ahead of everyone else. It should not be forgotten that Rivers gets minutes in the Nuggets because most of their guards are injured.

Start IQ

xavier wrote:

franco12 wrote:Did Austin Rivers like insult Thibs or something? Because watching him light things up here early in this game, thinking we sure as hell could have used him right about now.

Let's not exaggerate. Rivers was brought in here for a role that was later given to Rose. After we traded for Rose, it was clear that Rivers was leaving. That pro flashes here and there, doesn’t mean he would be the solution to our problems. We still have Rose, Burks and IQ who are better than him in guard positions, and Payton would definitely be ahead of him when he's starting ahead of everyone else. It should not be forgotten that Rivers gets minutes in the Nuggets because most of their guards are injured.

No one is exaggerating. Payton is garbage. Rivers put up 9 points- most early when Denver got out to a hot start- in 20 minutes. We’ll be lucky if Payton scores 9 points in the play offs or plays 20 minutes.

We could use Rivers right now.

franco12 wrote:

xavier wrote:

franco12 wrote:Did Austin Rivers like insult Thibs or something? Because watching him light things up here early in this game, thinking we sure as hell could have used him right about now.

Let's not exaggerate. Rivers was brought in here for a role that was later given to Rose. After we traded for Rose, it was clear that Rivers was leaving. That pro flashes here and there, doesn’t mean he would be the solution to our problems. We still have Rose, Burks and IQ who are better than him in guard positions, and Payton would definitely be ahead of him when he's starting ahead of everyone else. It should not be forgotten that Rivers gets minutes in the Nuggets because most of their guards are injured.

No one is exaggerating. Payton is garbage. Rivers put up 9 points- most early when Denver got out to a hot start- in 20 minutes. We’ll be lucky if Payton scores 9 points in the play offs or plays 20 minutes.

We could use Rivers right now.

We may not have understood each other well, it is not at all disputed that Rivers offensively can contribute more than Payton. But I want to say that Rivers signed a relatively team friendly contract with the Knicks and in return he should have gotten a lot of chances from the bench. But that was before it became clear that IQ could very well contribute this season as well, and before Rose was brought in. After that, it was clear that Rivers no longer had a serious place in the rotation and a solution was being sought for him given that it was obviously such an arrangement. Of course it was more elegant that we simply cut Payton, but it was clear that's not going to happen.

Also, what I want to say is that Rivers wouldn't be of much help to us at this moment, because he's not a defender, he's not a PG, he's more of a SG, and he's a very inconsistent shooter. He’s kind of poor man’s Burks.