Knicks · Knicks are most aggressive Collin Sexton suitor according to Shams (page 9)

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:How many more years are we going to bank on future free agents? I'm not saying I would advocate adding Love, just wouldn't be mad if we had to include him in the deal IF that resulted in us retaining more of our assets.

Every year, but the word should be Plan not Bank.

Every year you plan for the draft. Every year you plan to maximize your cap space. Every year you plan out when other free agents are available.

Every year you do all of it and you strike when the chips are in your favor.

What I'm referring to is "hey Ja Morant is going to be a free agent in a couple of year, lets make moves to ensure that we have cap space in 2024 so that we can make a run at him." Not sure we can keep kicking that can down the road for forever.

Quite frankly, that's just the reader taking too much into account of what the media pushes out and then swallowing it like it's meaningful.

There are going to be free agents. Some years are better than others. Some years the Knicks will have cap space and some times they won't.

This FO has prioritized cap space and contract flexibility so free agents should be in the discussion.

No doubt and I think they've done a great job putting us in a favorable position. But I think we (as fans) are going to have to be prepared for the FO to pull the trigger on some moves and use our cap space to build the best roster possible, as imperfect as it may be. Sexton (and Love for that matter) certainly aren't perfect but I think they have the potential to make us significantly better.

You are falling into the same trap. You are preparing yourself - ie you have sold yourself on the idea - for a trade. Don't.

We are going to have to do something. We only have 7-8 players under guaranteed contracts. I doubt very seriously we're getting a difference maker via free agency this year and counting on getting one in the draft at 19 and 21 is going to be tough. Other than a trade I just don't know if there are better options.

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:How many more years are we going to bank on future free agents? I'm not saying I would advocate adding Love, just wouldn't be mad if we had to include him in the deal IF that resulted in us retaining more of our assets.

Every year, but the word should be Plan not Bank.

Every year you plan for the draft. Every year you plan to maximize your cap space. Every year you plan out when other free agents are available.

Every year you do all of it and you strike when the chips are in your favor.

What I'm referring to is "hey Ja Morant is going to be a free agent in a couple of year, lets make moves to ensure that we have cap space in 2024 so that we can make a run at him." Not sure we can keep kicking that can down the road for forever.

Quite frankly, that's just the reader taking too much into account of what the media pushes out and then swallowing it like it's meaningful.

There are going to be free agents. Some years are better than others. Some years the Knicks will have cap space and some times they won't.

This FO has prioritized cap space and contract flexibility so free agents should be in the discussion.

No doubt and I think they've done a great job putting us in a favorable position. But I think we (as fans) are going to have to be prepared for the FO to pull the trigger on some moves and use our cap space to build the best roster possible, as imperfect as it may be. Sexton (and Love for that matter) certainly aren't perfect but I think they have the potential to make us significantly better.

You are falling into the same trap. You are preparing yourself - ie you have sold yourself on the idea - for a trade. Don't.

We are going to have to do something. We only have 7-8 players under guaranteed contracts. I doubt very seriously we're getting a difference maker via free agency this year and counting on getting one in the draft at 19 and 21 is going to be tough. Other than a trade I just don't know if there are better options.

What gives you any hint that the FO would change their strategy from last year? What you are talking about makes zero sense to me

Cleveland prob wants 4# 1 picks 3 swaps and Toppin

Knicks should focus on their draft

BRIGGS wrote:Cleveland prob wants 4# 1 picks 3 swaps and Toppin

Knicks should focus on their draft

I'm sure Clev also wants Luka, Giannis and AD too. They'll have to learn to accept less.

Welpee wrote:We are going to have to do something. We only have 7-8 players under guaranteed contracts. I doubt very seriously we're getting a difference maker via free agency this year and counting on getting one in the draft at 19 and 21 is going to be tough. Other than a trade I just don't know if there are better options.

You've created a scenario in your head where there are only two possible outcomes. The Knicks over trade and overpay Sexton and eat Love's horrible deal or they are fucked.

There are actually more that two possible outcomes. The entire premise of the Cavs having the ability to force the Knicks to take Love into any Sexton deal indicates you don't actually understand the true leverage situation in the current environment.

You are also trying to forecast 2-4 seasons down the road and while there is a pathway for that regarding money, it only really factors in when you have a core locked into your roster ( for example, the Warriors trying to forecast money when they have Curry/Thompson/Green locked in is an entirely different situation)

You've overestimated the actual market demand for Sexton. If he's going to get a ton of interest, it will be from teams looking for a rental shot in the arm and the allure of trying to flip his full Bird Rights in the offseason via sign and trade after hopefully milking some playoff value out of him. That's rental interest, not long term interest.

One of my former college coaches, his wife is an "extreme coupon" person. They go and find deals in drug stores and grocery stores or whatever. They have a garage full of useless shit because she found a coupon for something but was obsessive about getting some kind of deal without regard to whether it was useful in context of everyday life or not. I'm sure some things she gets are very useful. But there is a clear problem of spending because she has it in her hands at the moment over rational thought about whether it actually makes sense on a broad scale.

You are locked into some bizarre "Buy One Get One Free" on some pool inflatables when you aren't in a place that has an actual pool.

There is no leverage situation where the Cavs can force Kevin Love to the Knicks in a Sexton deal. I don't know how you talked yourself into it but it has no actual marketplace reality.

What's the worst that can happen? Sexton gets traded as a rental to some team and the Knicks might have to consider a sign and trade this offseason or extending an offer sheet, just against a different franchise than the Cavs?

BRIGGS wrote:Cleveland prob wants 4# 1 picks 3 swaps and Toppin

Knicks should focus on their draft

Yeah so we can draft another so so player that needs 4 yrs to become avg

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Cleveland prob wants 4# 1 picks 3 swaps and Toppin

Knicks should focus on their draft

Yeah so we can draft another so so player that needs 4 yrs to become avg

99% of the players you probably want were drafted at some point. I'm sure the Knicks are focusing on the draft and possible trades. It's a balance.

As others have pointed out we seem the do real well with an attacking guard, even if his only consistent threat is to drive for the layup or pull up for a short jumper. That's something that IQ can provide at a high lever in a year or two. Sexton can give you that right now from a starting PG position and to also be a very real threat to lob it to our bigs as well as give a low pass to Randle and RJ so that they can one dribble into the paint for an easy score. Very little offensive design needed for that.

Devonte Graham, on the other hand, is a major threat off of the PNR. Not so much breaking his man by himself to get into the paint. I think the offense required for him to shine is harder to put plan and implement. I would absolutely love to see us get Devonte and we would unquestionably improve, however Sexton could be the difference maker that puts us right there with Atlanta, Philly and the Nets.

ou are locked into some bizarre "Buy One Get One Free" on some pool inflatables when you aren't in a place that has an actual pool.

Classic.

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:How many more years are we going to bank on future free agents? I'm not saying I would advocate adding Love, just wouldn't be mad if we had to include him in the deal IF that resulted in us retaining more of our assets.

Every year, but the word should be Plan not Bank.

Every year you plan for the draft. Every year you plan to maximize your cap space. Every year you plan out when other free agents are available.

Every year you do all of it and you strike when the chips are in your favor.

What I'm referring to is "hey Ja Morant is going to be a free agent in a couple of year, lets make moves to ensure that we have cap space in 2024 so that we can make a run at him." Not sure we can keep kicking that can down the road for forever.

Quite frankly, that's just the reader taking too much into account of what the media pushes out and then swallowing it like it's meaningful.

There are going to be free agents. Some years are better than others. Some years the Knicks will have cap space and some times they won't.

This FO has prioritized cap space and contract flexibility so free agents should be in the discussion.

No doubt and I think they've done a great job putting us in a favorable position. But I think we (as fans) are going to have to be prepared for the FO to pull the trigger on some moves and use our cap space to build the best roster possible, as imperfect as it may be. Sexton (and Love for that matter) certainly aren't perfect but I think they have the potential to make us significantly better.

You are falling into the same trap. You are preparing yourself - ie you have sold yourself on the idea - for a trade. Don't.

We are going to have to do something. We only have 7-8 players under guaranteed contracts. I doubt very seriously we're getting a difference maker via free agency this year and counting on getting one in the draft at 19 and 21 is going to be tough. Other than a trade I just don't know if there are better options.

What gives you any hint that the FO would change their strategy from last year? What you are talking about makes zero sense to me

So given the success the Knicks had this season, you expect them to continue going bargain bin shopping versus attempting to go after significant talent upgrades as Woj and Derrick Rose have mentioned?

Welpee wrote:So given the success the Knicks had this season, you expect them to continue going bargain bin shopping versus attempting to go after significant talent upgrades as Woj and Derrick Rose have mentioned?

The Knicks have three well placed picks in a relatively strong draft class. The first six picks are all but a lock. The draft then flattens to the same rough pool to about 12 ish. But the Knicks could pick a guy at 19 who could have reasonably been argued as value for slot at 13. Their pick at 32 could nab a guy that could have been justified by a team in the early 20s. Useful players like Day'Ron Sharpe and Kessler Edwards might go in the mid to late 40s. There will be UDFAs in this class that would have been high 2nd rounders in another year.

While it would be nice to pick earlier than later, the benefit of picking when the draft goes extremely flat is you can pick a player you believe in without as much pressure for value for slot. OKC might not be all that hot about Scottie Barnes at 6th overall, but there is immense pressure to pick him there even if they like someone else better. Rookie slotting is also cheaper at the back end of the draft and the 2nd round pick is not guaranteed any money ( but in practical terms will likely get a contract edging in total dollars like a late first rounder)

The Piston grabbed Hayes, Bey, Beef Stew and Saben Lee last year. On top of Jerami Grant. And they rehabbed Josh Jackson. While most teams won't hit on that kind of volume in one year, it's not impossible for the Knicks to hit on a key contributor in this draft.

The Knicks have massive amount of cap space, meaning any team trying to lock into a massive three or four team deal will almost naturally imply the Knicks involvement to eat money. Not just Sexton. Sexton isn't the only trade possibility this offseason. Many teams will approach the Knicks about being part of a larger deal. Why not take some time to listen to them instead of taking a myopic view that it's Sexton or bust this offseason.

Good teams and well run teams take what the marketplace gives them. If that means more back end free agents, then so be it. If it means trades, so be it. If it means renting the cap space out for assets, then so be it. If it means doubling down in the draft, or moving up or down, then so be it.

You've got a serious case of blue balls with Collin Sexton trapped in your vas deferens and you can't wait to unzip your jeans and unload into Leon Rose's face. I don't get it personally. If you want a specific player, then you want a specific player. But you can't bend market reality to make it a better practical decision if market forces dictates that it's not.

You've got a serious case of blue balls with Collin Sexton trapped in your vas deferens and you can't wait to unzip your jeans and unload into Leon Rose's face.

The peanut gallery appreciates the effort. Lol

Can't really argue with anything you said. I remember a story about Phil Jackson becoming the GM and ordering his staff to prepare reports on each team. There are just so many scenarios a good front office needs to prepare for, it behooves teams to be patient. Sometimes though, if your rival really screws up, you got to strike the hammer while the iron is hot.

That could be the case with Sexton. The Knicks might look at the situation, think Cleveland is crazy for not keeping him and their asking price low.

BRIGGS wrote:Cleveland prob wants 4# 1 picks 3 swaps and Toppin

Knicks should focus on their draft

If thats the ask its an obvious pass. However if its Toppin, Knox, and a pick I would take that deal in a second. Its not easy to get scorers of his caliber at 22 on the open market.

gradyandrew wrote:

ou are locked into some bizarre "Buy One Get One Free" on some pool inflatables when you aren't in a place that has an actual pool.

Classic.

I literally have a ton of pool inflatables with no pool. Kiddos love this crap. We had one of those fake pools for Covid. Bought a lot of toys for it. Now we take them to the beach sometimes. But, yeah. This hits close too close to home.

Worse for me is that I paid full price for all of them. Couple kids and the wife just want that unicorn blow up toy cause it is shaped like a unicorn. Kind of got in the habit of buying them and still want more.

It’s possible that some of us look at the Knicks and see the organization used to buying crap that looks like a unicorn. Regardless of price.

I don’t think Sexton is a unicorn. I think he a decent player on a crappy team. Undersized. His “laser” passes are odd looking cross court lobs. Relatively high usage player. But when people start saying it will cost Barrett. Or 4 firsts. I see that and wonder what the hell is going on. It makes sense to do our due diligence on the availability, but I have the odds of this trade as pretty low. No need to overpay for offense.

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Cleveland prob wants 4# 1 picks 3 swaps and Toppin

Knicks should focus on their draft

Yeah so we can draft another so so player that needs 4 yrs to become avg

99% of the players you probably want were drafted at some point. I'm sure the Knicks are focusing on the draft and possible trades. It's a balance.

The problem I have is we don't keep them, we draft them and they are gone within 2 to 4 yr, and that's been going on for 25 yrs.

That trend figures to continue with this FO waiting to pounce on any star available.

According to some of us we never draft, develop, sign free agent, or make good trades.
NO matter how illogical having draft picks, cap space and some players with trade value currently on the roster it appears because our history is thin in those areas the last 20 years, the next 20 will be similar.
So be it.

knicks1248 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Cleveland prob wants 4# 1 picks 3 swaps and Toppin

Knicks should focus on their draft

Yeah so we can draft another so so player that needs 4 yrs to become avg

99% of the players you probably want were drafted at some point. I'm sure the Knicks are focusing on the draft and possible trades. It's a balance.

The problem I have is we don't keep them, we draft them and they are gone within 2 to 4 yr, and that's been going on for 25 yrs.

That trend figures to continue with this FO waiting to pounce on any star available.

So the premise of your response is that you would be ok with giving up 4 first rounders, 3 pick swaps and Obi for Sexton because of the Knicks draft history with different front office personnel over the past 25 years. Do I have that about right?

Aside from that, really unsure what your point is about the FO waiting to pounce on any star available. What moves has Rose made to date with the Knicks that would lead you to determine this hypothesis?

Is there any truth to Dame announcing a trade request out of Portland the next few days? I like Dame as a player but im against doing a melo type trade to get him. I would rather take my chances with trading for Sexton and getting another starting wing and see how far the knicks can go next year.

A team of Dame and Randle plus the rest of the team on a veterans' minimum doesnt stir any excitement for me. We had a young team this year and they are super fun to watch!

foosballnick wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Cleveland prob wants 4# 1 picks 3 swaps and Toppin

Knicks should focus on their draft

Yeah so we can draft another so so player that needs 4 yrs to become avg

99% of the players you probably want were drafted at some point. I'm sure the Knicks are focusing on the draft and possible trades. It's a balance.

The problem I have is we don't keep them, we draft them and they are gone within 2 to 4 yr, and that's been going on for 25 yrs.

That trend figures to continue with this FO waiting to pounce on any star available.

So the premise of your response is that you would be ok with giving up 4 first rounders, 3 pick swaps and Obi for Sexton because of the Knicks draft history with different front office personnel over the past 25 years. Do I have that about right?

Aside from that, really unsure what your point is about the FO waiting to pounce on any star available. What moves has Rose made to date with the Knicks that would lead you to determine this hypothesis?

He said the knicks should focus on the draft, which they will do their due diligence, my point is not about giving up draft 4 picks for anyone, it's about the reality. OBI and Knox are already included in any potential trade for sexton, so that's 2 knicks recent lottery picks (plus this yrs pick) that are still on rookie contracts, If Lillard is on the table, Leon won't hesitate to add RJ, Mitch or IQ.

I'm ok with this because like i always stated, I rather another team deal with the growing pains (even though it would really suck to lose RJ, i really like him)

Another factor is the knicks haven't drafted a Franchise player since EWING, what does that tell you about their track record, the players that have BLOSSOM in NY are Veterans they traded for or signed as FA.

Bad teams draft by talent, they don't care of the position of need, that's why cleveland has Garland and Sexton, We drafted OBI despite having Randle and Konx just because of his talent and from NYC even though we needed a pg, and now both teams are looking to correct their mistakes..

If we do this. I don’t mind taking Kevin love. But if I have to take 30 mm in cap. No picks in rd 1

As in Knox Toppin 32 for sexton and love. I like live as a bench player. He gets hurt to much as a starter.

What do u guys think?

Let's say the Knicks had to give up a lot of assets, let's say Obi (somewhat known quantity) and the 19 + 21 to get Sexton. You could say that's like a lottery pick and 2 mid-late 1st rounders.

Looking at the last 5 drafts, here's what you get at #19 and #21: (and notable players picked after)
2020: Saddiq Bey, Tyrese Maxey (Quickley, Bane, Maledon, Kenyon Martin, Nets's Scrubb)
2019: Luka Samanic, Brandon Clarke (GSW's Paschall & Poole, Kevin Porter Jr, Keldon Johnson)
2018: Kevin Huerter, Grayson Allen (Brunson, Robert Williams, Landry Shamet, Devonte Graham)

I'm surprised by the quality of players you get this late - seemingly more hits than you get from the lottery!

Bey/Maxey were basically players predicted as potential lottery picks going into the college season - and both project as potential starters down the road.
Saminic is basically a rare blown pick by the Spurs. Clarke (drafted at age 23) is a readymade contributor and got minutes from the get-go.
Huerter puts up surprisingly big numbers for Atlanta (in spite of "looking" underwhelming physically) and Allen was good enough to earn 25mpg with Memphis and play the role of a reliable 3pt sniper.

So would you trade Sexton for any 2 of those 19 and 21 picks? And moreover, if I were a Cleveland fan, would I feel like the Cavs were getting fleeced?