WTF is it? Turner was shooting practice shots with 9 feet of open space.
No one stayed in front of Lavert or Brogdon.
Our Centers were MIA Out of their league tonight.
Last few games way way way too much open space on the perimeter
why dont we pick up 3/4 Q we have not stopped ball or player movement uncontested on both
As many predicted, the loss of Payton and Bullock has impacted our defense. Walker and Fournier are both noticeably worse defenders than Payton and Bullock, and neither has been consistent enough on offense to offset that (although they both are noticeably better offensive players). I also think a part of it is that the players are being a bit lazy. They know they have more offensive power than last year, and so instead pushing at 100% on defense, they are trying to coast at 90% for most of the game and rely on the offense to carry them through. The problem is the offense is not where it needs to be to do that.
TheGame wrote:As many predicted, the loss of Payton and Bullock has impacted our defense. Walker and Fournier are both noticeably worse defenders than Payton and Bullock, and neither has been consistent enough on offense to offset that (although they both are noticeably better offensive players). I also think a part of it is that the players are being a bit lazy. They know they have more offensive power than last year, and so instead pushing at 100% on defense, they are trying to coast at 90% for most of the game and rely on the offense to carry them through. The problem is the offense is not where it needs to be to do that.
Agree….we all knew our defense would take a hit this year, but we will make up for it with a combination of our new offensive players and Thibs defensive culture. Well, it usually takes time for offense to gel. And we can’t expect Kemba and EF in their mid to late careers, to all of a sudden, turn into defensive players. So for now, this team will win based on Kemba and EF offensive efficiency.
Mitch can not guard Turner right now, with his extra weight and broken foot recovery. Zone would’ve helped Mitch stay near the rim and at least place a body on turner. He’s streaky and we let him get hot. Early season learning lessons!
BRIGGS wrote:WTF is it? Turner was shooting practice shots with 9 feet of open space.No one stayed in front of Lavert or Brogdon.
Our Centers were MIA Out of their league tonight.
Last few games way way way too much open space on the perimeter
why dont we pick up 3/4 Q we have not stopped ball or player movement uncontested on both
Is this a stealth "We need to bench Mitch and start Jericho Sims" thread? 
Our defensive philosophy is to protect the paint first, so we play inside out. The first line of defense, our perimeter players, are having a difficult time fighting through screens which has allowed the opposition to dart into the paint and collapse our back line defenders.
The other issue, and this was an issue last year as well, is our inability to recover to the corner 3 point line. When the ball is on the strong side wing, the weakside wing defender drops down and will get two feet in the paint (obviously they are mindful of the 3 second count), to protect the basket from strong side cutters, penetrators or post players. Essentially, 5 players are guarding the ball and the defenders on the weakside will have at least one foot on the nail to help the strong side defenders. These are old school defensive principles. The problem with this philosophy is most teams play 5 out of 4 out and 1 in offensive sets. The once forbidden cross court passes are now encouraged. Once the opposition dribbles toward the paint, the opposite wing player is wide open because our weakside defender is protecting the basket.
The Pacers had us well scouted and exploited our weak areas. It's a copy-cat league so expect similar game plans from here on out. I would love to see us adopt the Heat/Riley philosophy and trap the PNR (not against every team but especially against teams with ball dominate playmakers as to force the 'others' to make plays).
One area that needs to be fixed that has nothing to do with philosophy or defensive principles is the lack of 48 minute defensive intensity. We take plays off on the defensive end, something we rarely did last year. It's not just Evan and Kemba but Randle as well. Julius has been just as bad on the defensive end. We are being out worked and out hustled, which was what we hung our hat on. The Magic, Pacers and Raptors out worked us and that should never happen.
BRIGGS wrote:WTF is it? Turner was shooting practice shots with 9 feet of open space.No one stayed in front of Lavert or Brogdon.
Our Centers were MIA Out of their league tonight.
Last few games way way way too much open space on the perimeter
why dont we pick up 3/4 Q we have not stopped ball or player movement uncontested on both
This is a good whine.
Having your rim protector pulled out creates other problems. Turner had a career night and they executed.
its why we lost.
Bring in Obi to guard turner, they will adjust, he goes low.
C’mon Briggs, the game is a chess match and your better than this. Your describing checkers.
If no one stayed in front then your saying we guarded the perimeter and they went by. But you also said we gave too much space?
You can’t stay in front of NBA players on every play. Lavert is a crafty quick guy that can hurt you with midrange and getting to the basket. Defense gives something and offense looks to capitalize. If you do, you win. If not, you lose.
Turner had a career night, they executed.
It sucks, we lost, but we also got beaten. Indy played tough defense on our guys.
Hard to swallow but they were better than us last night.
Team defense takes time. We have two new guys as mentioned. Thibs will get them right. Pacers are difficult to beat at home when Turner is shooting like that. Before last night Turner was shooting 32% from three and he's 34% career shooter from there. Fluke game by him.
SergioNYK wrote:Team defense takes time. We have two new guys as mentioned. Thibs will get them right. Pacers are difficult to beat at home when Turner is shooting like that. Before last night Turner was shooting 32% from three and he's 34% career shooter from there. Fluke game by him.
Give a professional basketball player open looks, they will knock them down. Most of Turners looks were wide open.
Uptown wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Team defense takes time. We have two new guys as mentioned. Thibs will get them right. Pacers are difficult to beat at home when Turner is shooting like that. Before last night Turner was shooting 32% from three and he's 34% career shooter from there. Fluke game by him.
Give a professional basketball player open looks, they will knock them down. Most of Turners looks were wide open.
Indians and Toronto did a great job on defense closing off shooters—-we were making shots our first 5 games — easier to set up 🆙 on D. The last 2 we’ve missed shots creating too many transition opportunities. We also rebounded only at a fair pace. Unfortunately to lose double digits 3 x in 8 games with 2 at home is not great. I thought we’d be a team that had a lot of continuation. It looked that way early but now we’re already making excuses . We look very slow footed out there on D. Center is slow pg is small and Fournier abs even Randle are average Only Barrett’s looked good on D abd even he was abused by lavert last night. We’ll see where we’re at 20 games in.
TheGame wrote:As many predicted, the loss of Payton and Bullock has impacted our defense. Walker and Fournier are both noticeably worse defenders than Payton and Bullock, and neither has been consistent enough on offense to offset that (although they both are noticeably better offensive players). I also think a part of it is that the players are being a bit lazy. They know they have more offensive power than last year, and so instead pushing at 100% on defense, they are trying to coast at 90% for most of the game and rely on the offense to carry them through. The problem is the offense is not where it needs to be to do that.
Bullock was a decent defender. Trae Young dismantled him in the playoffs as did most superior talent
Payton wasn’t a good defender. He simply wasn’t as bad as DSJ who couldn’t guard most of the posters on this messageboard
I'm happy that the Knicks are finally becoming a team. Love the moves made by the front office, Thibs is great, and I love seeing the growth of our young players like RJ and Toppin.
But we still have a long way to go. Here's my observation on the Knicks:
- The team lacks speed, energy, and length in the back court which hurts both offensively and defensively.
- Wish we had a real PG who can orchestrate the offense. Our offense looks sluggish, and there needs to be more cutting/slashing and ball movement.
- Wish we had more players with superior ball handling skills. Our offense buckle so easily under pressure from opposing defense.
- Randle is a good player but not a star until he learns how to control the game. His basketball IQ is not that high?
- Mitch, who is supposed to be our defensive anchor is being a liability defensively against 3s. Can we expect him to learn how to shoot, and be some sort of threat from the mid-range?
- The fact that Walker and Fournier cannot stay in front of their opposing players hurts.
For now, I would hope that Thibs gives more minutes to Toppin and the rookie guards, and see what happens. I'd also prefer playing McBride (and Grimes) over Quickly who is playing out of control this year. Go Knicks!
TheGame wrote:As many predicted, the loss of Payton and Bullock has impacted our defense. Walker and Fournier are both noticeably worse defenders than Payton and Bullock, and neither has been consistent enough on offense to offset that (although they both are noticeably better offensive players). I also think a part of it is that the players are being a bit lazy. They know they have more offensive power than last year, and so instead pushing at 100% on defense, they are trying to coast at 90% for most of the game and rely on the offense to carry them through. The problem is the offense is not where it needs to be to do that.
I agree with all this. In particular, the hate for the Elf was misguided here -- our defensive intensity takes a hit without him at the 1. That said, I also think it's a work in progress deal.
OAK wrote:I'm happy that the Knicks are finally becoming a team. Love the moves made by the front office, Thibs is great, and I love seeing the growth of our young players like RJ and Toppin. But we still have a long way to go. Here's my observation on the Knicks:
- The team lacks speed, energy, and length in the back court which hurts both offensively and defensively.
- Wish we had a real PG who can orchestrate the offense. Our offense looks sluggish, and there needs to be more cutting/slashing and ball movement.
- Wish we had more players with superior ball handling skills. Our offense buckle so easily under pressure from opposing defense.
- Randle is a good player but not a star until he learns how to control the game. His basketball IQ is not that high?
- Mitch, who is supposed to be our defensive anchor is being a liability defensively against 3s. Can we expect him to learn how to shoot, and be some sort of threat from the mid-range?
- The fact that Walker and Fournier cannot stay in front of their opposing players hurts.
For now, I would hope that Thibs gives more minutes to Toppin and the rookie guards, and see what happens. I'd also prefer playing McBride (and Grimes) over Quickly who is playing out of control this year. Go Knicks!
Quickly played the same way last year. Last season we didn’t have the offensive fire power we have now. So the team needed Quick to come in a be that offensive spark which is a poor man’s shooting version of trae young. But like trae young, quicks offense is impacted by the rule changes and physicality we all are used to as 90s knicks fans. The difference is this year we have Kemba and EF to provide some offensive punch. Kemba is a better offensive player and shooter than Quick. Quick needs to shift his approach from being a shooter first and playmaker last. This current team needs Quick to be a playmaker off the bench who can shoot. That’s an adjustment. But that’s also what McBride is, plus McBride is a defender. It all comes down to practice time and who’s killing in practice. McBride and the other rookies could be stinking it up, while fans are screening to play them. These guys are known for their defense and shooting. I don’t think we look at quick and think defensive stopper. Quick is a streaky volume shooter. So quicks value is making shots and right now he’s not making shots. Let’s hope he turns that around while the rooks are watching and ready for their name to be called. But quick deserves to be in his same position as last year since he’s put in work in the off-season and coaches love him. With that said quick needs to step up soon and start impacting the team by any means necessary and not just by making shots.
Not bagging on Randle. But so far he has been the weak link on defense. Turner was his guy as Mitch was guarding Sabonis. Randle allowed Turner a lot of space and no hands in his face. Communication weakness are everywhere.
KnickDanger wrote:TheGame wrote:As many predicted, the loss of Payton and Bullock has impacted our defense. Walker and Fournier are both noticeably worse defenders than Payton and Bullock, and neither has been consistent enough on offense to offset that (although they both are noticeably better offensive players). I also think a part of it is that the players are being a bit lazy. They know they have more offensive power than last year, and so instead pushing at 100% on defense, they are trying to coast at 90% for most of the game and rely on the offense to carry them through. The problem is the offense is not where it needs to be to do that.
I agree with all this. In particular, the hate for the Elf was misguided here -- our defensive intensity takes a hit without him at the 1. That said, I also think it's a work in progress deal.
Elf couldn’t guard a stop sign. Relax.
Vmart wrote:Not bagging on Randle. But so far he has been the weak link on defense. Turner was his guy as Mitch was guarding Sabonis. Randle allowed Turner a lot of space and no hands in his face. Communication weakness are everywhere.
Randle doesn’t have the size and length to be an ideal defender at the 4. Obi actually does even if he’s not known for defense
Philc1 wrote:KnickDanger wrote:TheGame wrote:As many predicted, the loss of Payton and Bullock has impacted our defense. Walker and Fournier are both noticeably worse defenders than Payton and Bullock, and neither has been consistent enough on offense to offset that (although they both are noticeably better offensive players). I also think a part of it is that the players are being a bit lazy. They know they have more offensive power than last year, and so instead pushing at 100% on defense, they are trying to coast at 90% for most of the game and rely on the offense to carry them through. The problem is the offense is not where it needs to be to do that.
I agree with all this. In particular, the hate for the Elf was misguided here -- our defensive intensity takes a hit without him at the 1. That said, I also think it's a work in progress deal.
Elf couldn’t guard a stop sign. Relax.
Bulls#!t. Not saying he's "the Glove" but he was solid and his absence with Bullock is noticeable. But I know, the Hate Train don't stop there.
Philc1 wrote:Vmart wrote:Not bagging on Randle. But so far he has been the weak link on defense. Turner was his guy as Mitch was guarding Sabonis. Randle allowed Turner a lot of space and no hands in his face. Communication weakness are everywhere.
Randle doesn’t have the size and length to be an ideal defender at the 4. Obi actually does even if he’s not known for defense
Is Obi your new Franky? I like Obi. But If you are going to talk about Obi maybe you should mention his incredible energy. Ability to run the floor. Ability to finish at the basket. Very good cutter without the ball. Bit don't come on here making him out to be PJ Tucker!!
KnickDanger wrote:Philc1 wrote:KnickDanger wrote:TheGame wrote:As many predicted, the loss of Payton and Bullock has impacted our defense. Walker and Fournier are both noticeably worse defenders than Payton and Bullock, and neither has been consistent enough on offense to offset that (although they both are noticeably better offensive players). I also think a part of it is that the players are being a bit lazy. They know they have more offensive power than last year, and so instead pushing at 100% on defense, they are trying to coast at 90% for most of the game and rely on the offense to carry them through. The problem is the offense is not where it needs to be to do that.
I agree with all this. In particular, the hate for the Elf was misguided here -- our defensive intensity takes a hit without him at the 1. That said, I also think it's a work in progress deal.
Elf couldn’t guard a stop sign. Relax.
Bulls#!t. Not saying he's "the Glove" but he was solid and his absence with Bullock is noticeable. But I know, the Hate Train don't stop there.
Payton was always hated because he took minutes from Frank. Yet the same guys that said Payton was not worth anything were the same that would point to Frank's "alleged" value on defense and ignore all his shortcomings on offense. Payton was our best PG prior to Rose's coming out last year. That was not a good thing but the facts. He has had a reputation for defense for some time. He just could not hit a long range jump shot to keep him in a playoff type line up.
For those calling to bench IQ, its about a coach faith that what he is working on often takes away from other things. Players seem to digress. Then one hopes instinct takes over with the new skills. MAYBE thats what IQ has been going thru and if you know its there, you let them play thru it. MAYBE thats what we saw last night. IQ is thinking too much, but the effort on Defense and playmaking is perhaps becoming instinct.
Assume “well grimes can’t be worse”? That means you gave up on IQ’s time line (of faith by coach).
The turn around last night was a quick study of all that was wrong and right with the team.
Kemba Fournier are great when they are great. Obviously teams are defending them differently and they are still working on chemistry. Kemba and Thibs are working it thru.
It might not work btw. But just a 10th of the schedule in it has worked more than not. 6-3 is rather good. They are not consistant. Norlens is signed. Mitch is not. DOn’t sweat it.
Norlens is fragile. talented but fragile. Mitch is a work in progress after his long layoff.
The future is uncertain. Enjoy the ride.
KnickDanger wrote:Philc1 wrote:KnickDanger wrote:TheGame wrote:As many predicted, the loss of Payton and Bullock has impacted our defense. Walker and Fournier are both noticeably worse defenders than Payton and Bullock, and neither has been consistent enough on offense to offset that (although they both are noticeably better offensive players). I also think a part of it is that the players are being a bit lazy. They know they have more offensive power than last year, and so instead pushing at 100% on defense, they are trying to coast at 90% for most of the game and rely on the offense to carry them through. The problem is the offense is not where it needs to be to do that.
I agree with all this. In particular, the hate for the Elf was misguided here -- our defensive intensity takes a hit without him at the 1. That said, I also think it's a work in progress deal.
Elf couldn’t guard a stop sign. Relax.
Bulls#!t. Not saying he's "the Glove" but he was solid and his absence with Bullock is noticeable. But I know, the Hate Train don't stop there.
Yet we somehow managed to hold Giannis and the NBA’s best team to below 100 without the defensive intensity of Elfrid Payton
