Knicks · apparently the Knicks have the best defense in the league (when Kemba is off the floor) (page 1)

fishmike @ 11/29/2021 7:02 PM
Really pretty incredible:

I dont ever remember Burks being the solid defender he is with us, but he's been really good and he's certainly earned more playing time the old fashioned way... just playing good phuckin basketball

I also hope this puts the ball back in Randle's handles because when he handles it early and often we see that great facilitating. When Kemba/EF are trying to "get going" and Randle touches it less he's a black hole. I really trust Thibs... this had to be a tough call. I expect results.

11-9 is a good starting point to start the dominating run.

LivingLegend @ 11/29/2021 7:27 PM
Crazy stats
LivingLegend @ 11/29/2021 7:30 PM
Early in camp I noticed Burke’s looked in great shape (thin) - maybe he was told/prepared for this possibility.

Fact is - to date he has been aggressive and attacked while Kemba has played pussy foot with the ball - going more side to side.

Very excited because I think was the move that needed to happen - shocked we got here without Kemba buyout but you never know what happens down the road.

Knixkik @ 11/29/2021 8:17 PM
fishmike wrote:Really pretty incredible:

I dont ever remember Burks being the solid defender he is with us, but he's been really good and he's certainly earned more playing time the old fashioned way... just playing good phuckin basketball

I also hope this puts the ball back in Randle's handles because when he handles it early and often we see that great facilitating. When Kemba/EF are trying to "get going" and Randle touches it less he's a black hole. I really trust Thibs... this had to be a tough call. I expect results.

11-9 is a good starting point to start the dominating run.

So essentially without Kemba the Knicks are exactly who they were last year defensively, and a better offensive team due to the addition of Fournier and improvements from Quickley and Toppin. I think that’s what we all wanted. Let’s see if now the on-court product backs up the numbers.

HofstraBBall @ 11/29/2021 9:40 PM
fishmike wrote:Really pretty incredible:

I dont ever remember Burks being the solid defender he is with us, but he's been really good and he's certainly earned more playing time the old fashioned way... just playing good phuckin basketball

I also hope this puts the ball back in Randle's handles because when he handles it early and often we see that great facilitating. When Kemba/EF are trying to "get going" and Randle touches it less he's a black hole. I really trust Thibs... this had to be a tough call. I expect results.

11-9 is a good starting point to start the dominating run.

That would be the mic drop for a defensive coach. Trust in Thibs. Do you think Kemba wants out?

NYKMentality @ 11/29/2021 9:49 PM
The Knicks Defense of last year after only 20 games wasn't even top 20. But yet they finished #1.

It's called chemistry.

HELLO.

Jmpasq @ 11/29/2021 10:09 PM
NYKMentality wrote:The Knicks Defense of last year after only 20 games wasn't even top 20. But yet they finished #1.

It's called chemistry.

HELLO.

Maybe but a coach can't ignore those numbers. Thats pretty damning

NYKMentality @ 11/29/2021 10:22 PM
Jmpasq wrote:
NYKMentality wrote:The Knicks Defense of last year after only 20 games wasn't even top 20. But yet they finished #1.

It's called chemistry.

HELLO.

Maybe but a coach can't ignore those numbers. Thats pretty damning

Throughout 20 games last year? NY held their opponents to 100 or under 100 points (4x).

Throughout 20 games THIS YEAR? NY held their opponents to 100 points or under 100 points (8x).

We're actually playing much better team Defense this year in comparison to last year (throughout our 1st 20 games).

Kemet @ 11/29/2021 11:37 PM
NYKMentality wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
NYKMentality wrote:The Knicks Defense of last year after only 20 games wasn't even top 20. But yet they finished #1.

It's called chemistry.

HELLO.

Maybe but a coach can't ignore those numbers. Thats pretty damning

Throughout 20 games last year? NY held their opponents to 100 or under 100 points (4x).

Throughout 20 games THIS YEAR? NY held their opponents to 100 points or under 100 points (8x).

We're actually playing much better team Defense this year in comparison to last year (throughout our 1st 20 games).


The difference was trading for D.Rose during the season instead of the offseason.
Plus we been giving the D.Rose 2nd unit bench lineup twice the minute they receive last season.

Do we really believe Thibs is doing the right thing by taking Kemba out of the rotation?
I recall, Thibs taking Payton out of the rotation in the postseason .. And the Knicks went 0-3
All 3 games we looked terrible!!!

blkexec @ 11/30/2021 2:12 AM
fishmike wrote:Really pretty incredible:

I dont ever remember Burks being the solid defender he is with us, but he's been really good and he's certainly earned more playing time the old fashioned way... just playing good phuckin basketball

I also hope this puts the ball back in Randle's handles because when he handles it early and often we see that great facilitating. When Kemba/EF are trying to "get going" and Randle touches it less he's a black hole. I really trust Thibs... this had to be a tough call. I expect results.

11-9 is a good starting point to start the dominating run.

Oh yeah….Burks was stuck behind bullock and RJ. Remember RJ was at SG and Bullock at SF. RJ rarely came out and Burks defense was on par with bullock. But Burks was better defending PG and SG. But he was forced to play a lot of SF and that’s not his natural position.

This year he knows what to expect from Thibs and how defense will get him more playing time. Seems like everybody usually steps up in the off season preparing for thibs defensive conditioning that’s needed to earn playing time this season. Also with RJ playing SF, Burks can play SG or PG.

But Burks always been a solid 2 way guard back in his Utah jazz days. He’s a perfect player for thibs. Do it all type of player with enough defense and length to play a good switch type defense between RJ, Burks and EF. They all play 3 positions so switching went from a negative to a positive by removing Kemba. Thats what thibs was missing when ELF left. He like long guards that play defense and get to the rim.

Burks can play the Charlie ward role on a championship team. Steps up when needed and a players coach who will lead by example on both sides.

I was really impressed with his defense on smaller guards. Didn’t know he had the lateral quickness to guard Trae. Solid move by thibs. That’s why I love this coach.

Clean @ 11/30/2021 2:23 AM
Kemet wrote:
NYKMentality wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
NYKMentality wrote:The Knicks Defense of last year after only 20 games wasn't even top 20. But yet they finished #1.

It's called chemistry.

HELLO.

Maybe but a coach can't ignore those numbers. Thats pretty damning

Throughout 20 games last year? NY held their opponents to 100 or under 100 points (4x).

Throughout 20 games THIS YEAR? NY held their opponents to 100 points or under 100 points (8x).

We're actually playing much better team Defense this year in comparison to last year (throughout our 1st 20 games).


The difference was trading for D.Rose during the season instead of the offseason.
Plus we been giving the D.Rose 2nd unit bench lineup twice the minute they receive last season.

Do we really believe Thibs is doing the right thing by taking Kemba out of the rotation?
I recall, Thibs taking Payton out of the rotation in the postseason .. And the Knicks went 0-3
All 3 games we looked terrible!!!

While the bold part is true it lacks a lot of context. Thibs took too long to make the change so no one knew their new roles and had no time to adapt to it. The change also came after Rose has already blew his wad because he had to play so many extra minutes because Elf was so bad after being subbed out he did not come back in. By the time the change was made Rose was done and he even injured his knee in one of those games. People don't remember that though. If we are being honest RJ and Randle looked bad the whole playoffs so you can't blame that on the change. After that one game IQ also did not show up the rest of the playoffs.

If Thibs would have made the change in the reg season like many people wanted we would have had time to iron out the kinks before our season was on the line in the playoffs. To his credit Thibs learned from his mistake with Elf and is now not waiting until the very last minute to make an obvious change that could potentially help the team.

Allanfan20 @ 11/30/2021 5:22 AM
That is nuts. I didn’t even think he would be this bad defensively. With that said, one liability will f’ a defense up bad if the other 4 are good. As Tommy boy says, everyone has to know their assignments and everyone has to work hard.

I guess it’s only fair too. He has no problem yanking Obi for the slightest thing. It’s definitely a message to send to the team. We are fortunate to be above .500 still.

blkexec @ 11/30/2021 7:23 AM
Allanfan20 wrote:That is nuts. I didn’t even think he would be this bad defensively. With that said, one liability will f’ a defense up bad if the other 4 are good. As Tommy boy says, everyone has to know their assignments and everyone has to work hard.

I guess it’s only fair too. He has no problem yanking Obi for the slightest thing. It’s definitely a message to send to the team. We are fortunate to be above .500 still.

This puts the bullseye on Thibs now. And it’s not the first move I wouldve made. But I said this before, knicks hired an analytics team or person. This is an example when analytical data and the eye test are both seeing the same thing. The human impact is the locker room cancer or impact to future free agents that genuinely likes Kemba. He’s a likable guy on the team and across the nba.

But the beauty of this move Is the switch ability on defense now. You have 4 plays in the starting lineup that can guard 2 or 3 positions. Thibs just increased our defensive flexibility with one move. While improving the offense by adding a guy who has a catch and shoot game and can drive and finish at the rim. Long 6’6 guard with enough quickness to stay in front of most PGs. Burks will be needed for these next 4 or 5 game stretch of playoff teams. I believe Burks keeps us above 500 and with Kemba and the other lineup, we probably dip below 500. So good move on thibs. Hope it works.

xavier @ 11/30/2021 7:33 AM
I really didn't expect much from Kemba, but I thought ok, it's neither a big nor a long contract and he will reduce our dependence on Rose and share the minutes on PG with him. I knew he was a defensive liability, but I thought he should raise the offense a little. But these numbers are absolutely awful.
Chandler @ 11/30/2021 7:56 AM
Crazy stats. I knew Kamba was giving up too much dribble penetration and his lateral movement was subpar but Wow!

He still played w heart. Probably leads the team in taking charges. How he will be used now is anyone’s guess. I don’t see thibs tinkering with the second unit much

fishmike @ 11/30/2021 8:58 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:Really pretty incredible:

I dont ever remember Burks being the solid defender he is with us, but he's been really good and he's certainly earned more playing time the old fashioned way... just playing good phuckin basketball

I also hope this puts the ball back in Randle's handles because when he handles it early and often we see that great facilitating. When Kemba/EF are trying to "get going" and Randle touches it less he's a black hole. I really trust Thibs... this had to be a tough call. I expect results.

11-9 is a good starting point to start the dominating run.

That would be the mic drop for a defensive coach. Trust in Thibs. Do you think Kemba wants out?

No because Thibs and his staff are pros and really sensitive to who Kemba is and what he's done in the league and the reason Kemba is benched isnt because he's not liked or not trying hard, its because he's not effective and I am pretty sure that's showing out in the film sessions. All the talk about accountability if a guy isnt doing the job and you have others that can the rest should be history. Its a league where there are other factors such as salary and a team's investment in a player's development. Kemba isnt a max player we need to get right (like Ranbdle) and he's not a developmental guy we are committed to (like RJ).

I think Kemba sits, takes it like a pro and does great in spot duty when Rose is out and Kemba runs in with the 2nd unit. Maybe that's kumbaya, but I dont see the teams lining up to give Kemba a bunch of playing time. He can still play a useful role here give us some feel good moments

blkexec @ 11/30/2021 10:30 AM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:Really pretty incredible:

I dont ever remember Burks being the solid defender he is with us, but he's been really good and he's certainly earned more playing time the old fashioned way... just playing good phuckin basketball

I also hope this puts the ball back in Randle's handles because when he handles it early and often we see that great facilitating. When Kemba/EF are trying to "get going" and Randle touches it less he's a black hole. I really trust Thibs... this had to be a tough call. I expect results.

11-9 is a good starting point to start the dominating run.

That would be the mic drop for a defensive coach. Trust in Thibs. Do you think Kemba wants out?

No because Thibs and his staff are pros and really sensitive to who Kemba is and what he's done in the league and the reason Kemba is benched isnt because he's not liked or not trying hard, its because he's not effective and I am pretty sure that's showing out in the film sessions. All the talk about accountability if a guy isnt doing the job and you have others that can the rest should be history. Its a league where there are other factors such as salary and a team's investment in a player's development. Kemba isnt a max player we need to get right (like Ranbdle) and he's not a developmental guy we are committed to (like RJ).

I think Kemba sits, takes it like a pro and does great in spot duty when Rose is out and Kemba runs in with the 2nd unit. Maybe that's kumbaya, but I dont see the teams lining up to give Kemba a bunch of playing time. He can still play a useful role here give us some feel good moments

I agree with you. But Thibs comment about Kemba is not only benched but out of the rotation. I never heard this type of treatment to a player, unless he's a locker room cancer (for example Ben Simmons or Kyrie). So Thibs will be treading thin ice if and when Rose is not available.

Does Thibs go str8 to McBride as the PG back fill for Rose? Does he keep pulling Kemba in and out of rotation? I think at this point Kemba would be a great mentor / PG coach on the sideline or during huddles. But if Kemba wants to play and he said physically he feels great, then we should trade him to a team of his choice. Otherwise, I cant see Kemba just sitting on the bench and not playing, but still happy to be on the team. That will get old real fast.

Just think about the next game we lose or the next bad game from Burks. The NY media will run to Kemba for his take. NY media is very aggressive and always looking for drama, even if it's not there. So lets hope Kemba takes it like a professional and tries to help the team from whatever seat he has moving forward. Must watched game tonight. Knick fans will be up and ready to flood the Barclay Center with orange and blue. Can't wait.

Uptown @ 11/30/2021 12:45 PM
blkexec wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:Really pretty incredible:

I dont ever remember Burks being the solid defender he is with us, but he's been really good and he's certainly earned more playing time the old fashioned way... just playing good phuckin basketball

I also hope this puts the ball back in Randle's handles because when he handles it early and often we see that great facilitating. When Kemba/EF are trying to "get going" and Randle touches it less he's a black hole. I really trust Thibs... this had to be a tough call. I expect results.

11-9 is a good starting point to start the dominating run.

That would be the mic drop for a defensive coach. Trust in Thibs. Do you think Kemba wants out?

No because Thibs and his staff are pros and really sensitive to who Kemba is and what he's done in the league and the reason Kemba is benched isnt because he's not liked or not trying hard, its because he's not effective and I am pretty sure that's showing out in the film sessions. All the talk about accountability if a guy isnt doing the job and you have others that can the rest should be history. Its a league where there are other factors such as salary and a team's investment in a player's development. Kemba isnt a max player we need to get right (like Ranbdle) and he's not a developmental guy we are committed to (like RJ).

I think Kemba sits, takes it like a pro and does great in spot duty when Rose is out and Kemba runs in with the 2nd unit. Maybe that's kumbaya, but I dont see the teams lining up to give Kemba a bunch of playing time. He can still play a useful role here give us some feel good moments

I agree with you. But Thibs comment about Kemba is not only benched but out of the rotation. I never heard this type of treatment to a player, unless he's a locker room cancer (for example Ben Simmons or Kyrie). So Thibs will be treading thin ice if and when Rose is not available.

Does Thibs go str8 to McBride as the PG back fill for Rose? Does he keep pulling Kemba in and out of rotation? I think at this point Kemba would be a great mentor / PG coach on the sideline or during huddles. But if Kemba wants to play and he said physically he feels great, then we should trade him to a team of his choice. Otherwise, I cant see Kemba just sitting on the bench and not playing, but still happy to be on the team. That will get old real fast.

Just think about the next game we lose or the next bad game from Burks. The NY media will run to Kemba for his take. NY media is very aggressive and always looking for drama, even if it's not there. So lets hope Kemba takes it like a professional and tries to help the team from whatever seat he has moving forward. Must watched game tonight. Knick fans will be up and ready to flood the Barclay Center with orange and blue. Can't wait.

Wont be surprised if Thibs does to Kemba, what hw did to Rivers last year....

smackeddog @ 11/30/2021 2:17 PM
I do wonder if the benches stats (on defense and offense and +-) are inflated because the starters have got us so far behind, the opposing team are coasting by the time the bench are on the court due to having a huge lead
knicks1248 @ 11/30/2021 2:44 PM
smackeddog wrote:I do wonder if the benches stats (on defense and offense and +-) are inflated because the starters have got us so far behind, the opposing team are coasting by the time the bench are on the court due to having a huge lead

What im even more concern about is how could 1 player be held accountable for the other 4 players defense, especially since he primarily only played with the starting unit.

More people were questioning Fournier's overall defense and Randle and Mitch's lazy perimeter defense than Kemba, was he just a Fall guy here?

Allan Houston was one of the worst defenders in the league on the best defensive team in the league.

jrodmc @ 11/30/2021 2:57 PM
blkexec wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:Really pretty incredible:

I dont ever remember Burks being the solid defender he is with us, but he's been really good and he's certainly earned more playing time the old fashioned way... just playing good phuckin basketball

I also hope this puts the ball back in Randle's handles because when he handles it early and often we see that great facilitating. When Kemba/EF are trying to "get going" and Randle touches it less he's a black hole. I really trust Thibs... this had to be a tough call. I expect results.

11-9 is a good starting point to start the dominating run.

That would be the mic drop for a defensive coach. Trust in Thibs. Do you think Kemba wants out?

No because Thibs and his staff are pros and really sensitive to who Kemba is and what he's done in the league and the reason Kemba is benched isnt because he's not liked or not trying hard, its because he's not effective and I am pretty sure that's showing out in the film sessions. All the talk about accountability if a guy isnt doing the job and you have others that can the rest should be history. Its a league where there are other factors such as salary and a team's investment in a player's development. Kemba isnt a max player we need to get right (like Ranbdle) and he's not a developmental guy we are committed to (like RJ).

I think Kemba sits, takes it like a pro and does great in spot duty when Rose is out and Kemba runs in with the 2nd unit. Maybe that's kumbaya, but I dont see the teams lining up to give Kemba a bunch of playing time. He can still play a useful role here give us some feel good moments

I agree with you. But Thibs comment about Kemba is not only benched but out of the rotation. I never heard this type of treatment to a player, unless he's a locker room cancer (for example Ben Simmons or Kyrie). So Thibs will be treading thin ice if and when Rose is not available.

Does Thibs go str8 to McBride as the PG back fill for Rose? Does he keep pulling Kemba in and out of rotation? I think at this point Kemba would be a great mentor / PG coach on the sideline or during huddles. But if Kemba wants to play and he said physically he feels great, then we should trade him to a team of his choice. Otherwise, I cant see Kemba just sitting on the bench and not playing, but still happy to be on the team. That will get old real fast.

Just think about the next game we lose or the next bad game from Burks. The NY media will run to Kemba for his take. NY media is very aggressive and always looking for drama, even if it's not there. So lets hope Kemba takes it like a professional and tries to help the team from whatever seat he has moving forward. Must watched game tonight. Knick fans will be up and ready to flood the Barclay Center with orange and blue. Can't wait.


Agreed, and I just didn't get the bold. Why did Thibs have to say that? I thought I heard some mumblings about Kemba's knee not holding up, but confirming a player's out of the rotation, when you've got question marks like DRose and IQ (who was streaky last year as well) just doesn't make any sense.

Does he really need to give Burks some sort of assurance like this?

Weird. Going to be interesting to watch how Kemba responds to the media, whether Burks falls flat on his face or not.

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