Knicks · It really comes down to Randle and Walker can’t co-exist/ get Jalen Brunson (page 1)

Both look like deer in headlights playing together. All they do is defer. Randle isn’t last year’s Randle, but there was real chemistry showing between Randle, Fournier and Barrett before Kemba returned. Kemba can still turn it on in small spurts, but the offense is stagnant when he’s not feeling it. Without DRose, the bench can’t hold up the starters. Knicks probably need to move on front Kemba and recalibrate before doing anything drastic. Something about this mix of players in the starting lineup. It’s easy to point fingers at Randle, but the team was good last year so have to point to the changes made first. A Brunson deal isn’t the solution, but probably a step in the right direction. He provides a balanced option at PG that isn’t completely reliant on hot streaks. I’d like to see a team built around Barrett and Randle with more fit in mind. Brunson is a proven fit next to a wing that soaks up most of the playmaking duties. I have to think there’s some legs here. Knicks have plenty of trade combinations to offer and the most important asset Dallas could have which is their 2023 first round pick back.

Brunson is not available. He is basically starting on the Mavs. Unless you want to give RJ for Brunson. The best deal for the Knicks and it makes a whole lot of sense is Randle for Simmons.

Vmart wrote:Brunson is not available. He is basically starting on the Mavs. Unless you want to give RJ for Brunson. The best deal for the Knicks and it makes a whole lot of sense is Randle for Simmons.

Brunson is an impending free agent. His ties to the Knicks aren’t a secret. He would have no issues forcing his way here. I could buy the argument he’s not available if his contract wasn’t about to expire. Barrett isn’t needed. I say obi, Kemba and the Dallas first for Brunson and either Bullock or Powell would do it. Brunson is 25 and it’s no secret his skillset being able to play on or off the ball would work well.

Dallas is not gonna trade Brunson at the deadline- he's their 2nd best player. IF they trade him, its for an upgrade, not a downgrade. So IMO he's only coming via trade if you trade Randle or RJ. Otherwise wait for the offseason.

Brunson isn't the answer because he's not going to push the ball.

Fournier, OBI, Mitch two 1st rnd picks for Fox or Haliburton, Bagley...probably a pipe dream

I know the knicks wont trade fox because of his contract and the picks they will have to give up

VDesai wrote:Dallas is not gonna trade Brunson at the deadline- he's their 2nd best player. IF they trade him, its for an upgrade, not a downgrade. So IMO he's only coming via trade if you trade Randle or RJ. Otherwise wait for the offseason.

It's a good dig on the trash we traded to Dallas a couple of years ago.

I wouldn't draw hard lines in the same on what Dallas does with Brunson. They have to gauge how much he wants to stay, what contract he is going to ask for and what is the downside risk of him pushing for a S&T at end of season when Brunson will have all the leverage.

Here's what it comes down to: Mark Cuban would give us Brunson on a silver platter if we also agreed to take on the remainder of Porzingis's contract.

Could be really come down to this:

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martin wrote:Could be really come down to this:

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Bingo…nailed it. I’ve used so many words to say what u posted in such a small package. Hard to win consistently like this. Thibs laid in the bed with these two as his core. He’s very stubborn and already made a political and logical mistake on handling Kemba. I’m sure he will be gun shy on changing up his mins distribution with these two guys. Stubborn like most old guys, including me. But thibs has to see there needs to be a change how he distributes mins. Gotta believe its pretty obvious by now.

I think the only way we can salvage Randle and live with him for the remainder of his contract is by somehow acquiring an attacking penetrating scoring PG. Pretty much a younger version of Rose. This team has played their best ball the last two seasons when Rose was playing well consistently. But those guys are almost impossible to acquire unless you want to take a risk and trade for Westbrook (I don't!). But I think we need a guard with the respect to his name who will take the ball out of Randle's hands and consistently attack and score. We need to limit Randle's responsibilities and have him play Robin to a Batman at PG.

Kemba's toast. He can't give you good consistent production with those knees. And Brunson is not it either. Hate to be greedy but we honestly need an All-Star level player at the position if we are ever going to reach this teams max potential with Randle on the roster.

SergioNYK wrote:I think the only way we can salvage Randle and live with him for the remainder of his contract is by somehow acquiring an attacking penetrating scoring PG. Pretty much a younger version of Rose. This team has played their best ball the last two seasons when Rose was playing well consistently. But those guys are almost impossible to acquire unless you want to take a risk and trade for Westbrook (I don't!). But I think we need a guard with the respect to his name who will take the ball out of Randle's hands and consistently attack and score. We need to limit Randle's responsibilities and have him play Robin to a Batman at PG.

Kemba's toast. He can't give you good consistent production with those knees. And Brunson is not it either. Hate to be greedy but we honestly need an All-Star level player at the position if we are ever going to reach this teams max potential with Randle on the roster.

Not sure why everybody is against adding the ultimate rim attacking guard in westbrick, during his expiring contract year. Now I’m against giving up much and maybe that’s the issue. But if this FO can work it’s magic without giving up the farm or youths you do it. If that’s nearly impossible then move on.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:Could be really come down to this:

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Bingo…nailed it. I’ve used so many words to say what u posted in such a small package. Hard to win consistently like this. Thibs laid in the bed with these two as his core. He’s very stubborn and already made a political and logical mistake on handling Kemba. I’m sure he will be gun shy on changing up his mins distribution with these two guys. Stubborn like most old guys, including me. But thibs has to see there needs to be a change how he distributes mins. Gotta believe its pretty obvious by now.

? I agree with your main statement of RJ and Randle being the core players for the Knicks but Thibs laid in bed with these 2? They are the best players on the team, what else is there?

blkexec wrote:

SergioNYK wrote:I think the only way we can salvage Randle and live with him for the remainder of his contract is by somehow acquiring an attacking penetrating scoring PG. Pretty much a younger version of Rose. This team has played their best ball the last two seasons when Rose was playing well consistently. But those guys are almost impossible to acquire unless you want to take a risk and trade for Westbrook (I don't!). But I think we need a guard with the respect to his name who will take the ball out of Randle's hands and consistently attack and score. We need to limit Randle's responsibilities and have him play Robin to a Batman at PG.

Kemba's toast. He can't give you good consistent production with those knees. And Brunson is not it either. Hate to be greedy but we honestly need an All-Star level player at the position if we are ever going to reach this teams max potential with Randle on the roster.

Not sure why everybody is against adding the ultimate rim attacking guard in westbrick, during his expiring contract year. Now I’m against giving up much and maybe that’s the issue. But if this FO can work it’s magic without giving up the farm or youths you do it. If that’s nearly impossible then move on.

Then propose a trade if it is so easy. It's not because of his outsized contract.

And he can get to the rim but his shooting is worse than RJ's at the rim and his TO rate is even worse than Randle. And the dude cannot shoot and is a high usage player. And he is a PG and EVERYONE blows right past him.

We can't get caught up in exactly one aspect of what Westbrook CAN do while completely ignoring the rest.

I find some fault with Thibs because he hasn't adjusted. I get the love/priority for Randle and RJ (they are 2 best players) but watching Randle (and to a lesser extent RJ) make the same mistakes over and over and not hold them accountable or switch things up - that's on him IMO. Yes there are limited options, but any forum member here could have laid out this type of offense with a limited roster. Thibs's bread and butter is preparation and obtaining defensive effort from his teams. Thibs is also really lacking in offensive creativity and too stubborn. I do admire his loyalty to players (and understand the value) but at some point he needs to step back and not keep riding our best player simply because he's our best player. Our best player has average court vision and struggles when pressured with the ball. So the offense needs to be spread out more so Randle doesn't have such a heavy load. Problem is Randle just stands around when he doesn't have the ball in his hands much of the time. In fairness, most of the Knick starters do that. Only 2nd unit cuts, runs hard and moves the ball well.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:Could be really come down to this:

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Bingo…nailed it. I’ve used so many words to say what u posted in such a small package. Hard to win consistently like this. Thibs laid in the bed with these two as his core. He’s very stubborn and already made a political and logical mistake on handling Kemba. I’m sure he will be gun shy on changing up his mins distribution with these two guys. Stubborn like most old guys, including me. But thibs has to see there needs to be a change how he distributes mins. Gotta believe its pretty obvious by now.

? I agree with your main statement of RJ and Randle being the core players for the Knicks but Thibs laid in bed with these 2? They are the best players on the team, what else is there?

I guess so? Last year I think that was very true, eventhough RJ was too young to even prove himself yet. But definitely who was having a great year prior to coming to NY. My memory is bad, but Thibs 1st year was RJ's second year correct? Not sure I remember RJ doing much as a freshmen to warrant get top 5 minutes per game in the entire NBA, like all the other lebron type stars.

This year, looks like they are getting the same treatment, eventhough our team supposed to be deeper with more talent at the top in Kemba and EF. So thats why I said I guess so?

My lay in the bed comment is more about thibs making a decision and sticking to it, regardless. I guess if we add a player better than Randle, then RJ's minutes go down? I'm not so sure. I would guess someone elses minutes will drop. He's well known to run his players into the ground, depending on who's his favorite. Ross when he started, played close to 40. Off the bench, he was in the 30's. So I don't know man. I never understood Thibs rotation and minutes distribution. And I will only go crazy trying to understand it.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

SergioNYK wrote:I think the only way we can salvage Randle and live with him for the remainder of his contract is by somehow acquiring an attacking penetrating scoring PG. Pretty much a younger version of Rose. This team has played their best ball the last two seasons when Rose was playing well consistently. But those guys are almost impossible to acquire unless you want to take a risk and trade for Westbrook (I don't!). But I think we need a guard with the respect to his name who will take the ball out of Randle's hands and consistently attack and score. We need to limit Randle's responsibilities and have him play Robin to a Batman at PG.

Kemba's toast. He can't give you good consistent production with those knees. And Brunson is not it either. Hate to be greedy but we honestly need an All-Star level player at the position if we are ever going to reach this teams max potential with Randle on the roster.

Not sure why everybody is against adding the ultimate rim attacking guard in westbrick, during his expiring contract year. Now I’m against giving up much and maybe that’s the issue. But if this FO can work it’s magic without giving up the farm or youths you do it. If that’s nearly impossible then move on.

Then propose a trade if it is so easy. It's not because of his outsized contract.

And he can get to the rim but his shooting is worse than RJ's at the rim and his TO rate is even worse than Randle. And the dude cannot shoot and is a high usage player. And he is a PG and EVERYONE blows right past him.

We can't get caught up in exactly one aspect of what Westbrook CAN do while completely ignoring the rest.

Hard to disagree....And I'm the worst at trade predictions. You can probably see that since I'm no where to be found in those discussions. His contract is so large, you have to trade half the team. lol

jskinny35 wrote:I find some fault with Thibs because he hasn't adjusted. I get the love/priority for Randle and RJ (they are 2 best players) but watching Randle (and to a lesser extent RJ) make the same mistakes over and over and not hold them accountable or switch things up - that's on him IMO. Yes there are limited options, but any forum member here could have laid out this type of offense with a limited roster. Thibs's bread and butter is preparation and obtaining defensive effort from his teams. Thibs is also really lacking in offensive creativity and too stubborn. I do admire his loyalty to players (and understand the value) but at some point he needs to step back and not keep riding our best player simply because he's our best player. Our best player has average court vision and struggles when pressured with the ball. So the offense needs to be spread out more so Randle doesn't have such a heavy load. Problem is Randle just stands around when he doesn't have the ball in his hands much of the time. In fairness, most of the Knick starters do that. Only 2nd unit cuts, runs hard and moves the ball well.

I agree with most of what you are saying but I cannot get over the Offensive Creativity statement that I keep hearing repeated.

His best 2 players are RJ and Randle and they are not good passers. Rose has been out. Kemba we all knew his background. IQ is learning.

Mitch is still learning basic basketball fundamentals.

What creativity do you think ANY coach could put into that circumstance from an offensive perspective?

The Knicks run the same types of sets that 75% of the NBA runs.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:Could be really come down to this:

Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/Tom_Piccolo/status/1484528954019045381?s=20

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Bingo…nailed it. I’ve used so many words to say what u posted in such a small package. Hard to win consistently like this. Thibs laid in the bed with these two as his core. He’s very stubborn and already made a political and logical mistake on handling Kemba. I’m sure he will be gun shy on changing up his mins distribution with these two guys. Stubborn like most old guys, including me. But thibs has to see there needs to be a change how he distributes mins. Gotta believe its pretty obvious by now.

? I agree with your main statement of RJ and Randle being the core players for the Knicks but Thibs laid in bed with these 2? They are the best players on the team, what else is there?

I guess so? Last year I think that was very true, eventhough RJ was too young to even prove himself yet. But definitely who was having a great year prior to coming to NY. My memory is bad, but Thibs 1st year was RJ's second year correct? Not sure I remember RJ doing much as a freshmen to warrant get top 5 minutes per game in the entire NBA, like all the other lebron type stars.

This year, looks like they are getting the same treatment, eventhough our team supposed to be deeper with more talent at the top in Kemba and EF. So thats why I said I guess so?

My lay in the bed comment is more about thibs making a decision and sticking to it, regardless. I guess if we add a player better than Randle, then RJ's minutes go down? I'm not so sure. I would guess someone elses minutes will drop. He's well known to run his players into the ground, depending on who's his favorite. Ross when he started, played close to 40. Off the bench, he was in the 30's. So I don't know man. I never understood Thibs rotation and minutes distribution. And I will only go crazy trying to understand it.

Just FYI, RJ is averaging 32 minutes a game.

For the life of me I also don't get the "Thibs run his players into the ground" statement. I think it's like a some legendary story that is told over and over and over and no one actually checks to see if it makes sense.

Name me one coach who DOESN'T play his best players about 34-37 minutes a game? Riley, Pop, Phil Jackson, Spoelstra? It's all the same.

What Thibs did with his team is like par for the course.

Literally Kerr may be the only one. But his teams have been stacked and you can rotate the 4 mega stars.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:Could be really come down to this:

Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/Tom_Piccolo/status/1484528954019045381?s=20

Click here to view the Tweet

Bingo…nailed it. I’ve used so many words to say what u posted in such a small package. Hard to win consistently like this. Thibs laid in the bed with these two as his core. He’s very stubborn and already made a political and logical mistake on handling Kemba. I’m sure he will be gun shy on changing up his mins distribution with these two guys. Stubborn like most old guys, including me. But thibs has to see there needs to be a change how he distributes mins. Gotta believe its pretty obvious by now.

one can only surmise the players that rank higher have teams with winning records better than ours? Brilliant!

knicks1248 wrote:Brunson isn't the answer because he's not going to push the ball.

Fournier, OBI, Mitch two 1st rnd picks for Fox or Haliburton, Bagley...probably a pipe dream

I know the knicks wont trade fox because of his contract and the picks they will have to give up

......and the salary that has to go out the door, etc etc.
And do those players in return really solve our issues? Not like they lighting it up in Sac?
What do they need EF if they have Heild? The want to resign Mitch? Does OBI start for them?
Do you know anything about Sac>?

We know your penchant for pushing the ball. Im guessing Dallas is not a running team are they? Do they ask Brunson to push the ball?
Does he refuse this or is it by design? Do you know anything about Dallas besides watching them once this year?

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:I find some fault with Thibs because he hasn't adjusted. I get the love/priority for Randle and RJ (they are 2 best players) but watching Randle (and to a lesser extent RJ) make the same mistakes over and over and not hold them accountable or switch things up - that's on him IMO. Yes there are limited options, but any forum member here could have laid out this type of offense with a limited roster. Thibs's bread and butter is preparation and obtaining defensive effort from his teams. Thibs is also really lacking in offensive creativity and too stubborn. I do admire his loyalty to players (and understand the value) but at some point he needs to step back and not keep riding our best player simply because he's our best player. Our best player has average court vision and struggles when pressured with the ball. So the offense needs to be spread out more so Randle doesn't have such a heavy load. Problem is Randle just stands around when he doesn't have the ball in his hands much of the time. In fairness, most of the Knick starters do that. Only 2nd unit cuts, runs hard and moves the ball well.

I agree with most of what you are saying but I cannot get over the Offensive Creativity statement that I keep hearing repeated.

His best 2 players are RJ and Randle and they are not good passers. Rose has been out. Kemba we all knew his background. IQ is learning.

Mitch is still learning basic basketball fundamentals.

What creativity do you think ANY coach could put into that circumstance from an offensive perspective?

The Knicks run the same types of sets that 75% of the NBA runs.

Yes, part of this is Thibs being labeled for so many years. So now we get an up and close look, and Randle / RJ was(lets start with last year, haven't checked this year, sorry) was top 3 in minutes played? I hear you that most coaches do this, but I don't remember Randle playing that much in NO or in LA before he came to the knicks. Maybe he did and Thigs "run to the ground" label allowed the media to highlight this when he came to the knicks. But I think Rose injury may have placed that label on Thibs, how he played Rose until he blew a tire. I remember MDA had that same label, and guess what? Kobe blew a tire when MDA was the coach. So it may be just a label, but top 3 in minutes? How the hell your minutes are equal or more than lebron? Talking about last year. So this to me confirmed the "run into the ground" label for me. Yes Randle and RJ was the best, for arguement sake. Doesn't mean you put Lebron James load on RJ.

Lack of creativity on offense was another label of Thibs I've heard before he came here. Well, guess what? Now that I get a close look, our offense isn't the most creative. MDA had a more creative offense. Is it the players or system. I clearly remember players like Rose saying, "As long as you play defense, Thibs gives you freedom on offense". So maybe it's not a lack of creativity on offense. Maybe it's a lack of a system period on offense. Again, haven't don't any fact checking on our current system, just listening to former players and watching an offense that looks stagnant.

Or maybe like someone said, we have players that aren't used to passing and cutting. In todays basketball (I'm the old man that still plays), these kids just simply take turns with the ball, while the other 4 players stand and watch. I kind of see that same thing in todays NBA, and this could be a cultural shift and less about Thibs. But Thibs is the coach and he should still be held accountable when players stand around and don't cut. It's gives off a lack of energy and allows the other 4 to just pout and forget to guard their man. Which is why any team we play go on these long runs.

Now I have seen improvement, like the 1st half of yesterdays game. Randle was leading this pass and cut system, and it was working. So I can tell Thibs is doing or changing something. But like every new system, when players stop scoring and jumpshots aren't going in, you abandon the system and go back to what you are accustom to doing. Which in todays culture, it's ISO ball. Maybe we need ISO Trier back. He was my favorite AND 1 type of player. He's a walking bucket. Regardless, thibs most definitely need to take some of this blame on offense. Because come 3rd quarter, and shots not falling, you better believe they going back to ISO ball and turnovers, which leads to blow out loses. Sorry for the rant. But thats todays basketball.

And NEWS FLASH, this team is lacking skilled ISO players, eventhough most fall back to ISO ball (cough...cough...Randle). When he has it going, we accept it. When he doesn't, it leads to a huge lose and ugly basketball and bad defense, because the other 4 are just waiting their turn to do the same as Randle. Meanwhile the other team is running and gunning. Players are leaking out like Obi does on every play. But every team has a bunch of Obi's ready to run at all positions.