Knicks · Beginning of the End? (page 1)
This isn’t a great look for Thibs. He is showing an absolute defensiveness that normally defines his coaching style, not his media presence. I’m not saying the guy needs to cave to external pressure and I do respect that he watches a lot more tape than any of us. That said, he appears to be emotionally committed to a specific point that isn’t allowing him to pivot to other perspectives. Just because he watches more tape doesn’t mean everyone else is wrong. Time to take a step back and answer the tough questions - not whether Burks should be point guard or whether Obi is getting enough time, but why Thibs is so emotionally tied to these positions? The answer isn’t because Thibs watches more tape, it’s because Burks brings _____ or Obi lacks ____. Are those positions Thibs takes based on pride or fact?
EwingsGlass wrote:https://nypost.com/2022/03/26/knicks-tom...This isn’t a great look for Thibs. He is showing an absolute defensiveness that normally defines his coaching style, not his media presence. I’m not saying the guy needs to cave to external pressure and I do respect that he watches a lot more tape than any of us. That said, he appears to be emotionally committed to a specific point that isn’t allowing him to pivot to other perspectives. Just because he watches more tape doesn’t mean everyone else is wrong. Time to take a step back and answer the tough questions - not whether Burks should be point guard or whether Obi is getting enough time, but why Thibs is so emotionally tied to these positions? The answer isn’t because Thibs watches more tape, it’s because Burks brings _____ or Obi lacks ____. Are those positions Thibs takes based on pride or fact?
The frustrating thing is that if he were not so stubborn Thibs would be the ideal coach for the kids. Why? Because the kids play DEFENSE which is Thibs's specialty.
In particular I am shocked Thibs is not in crazy about Deuce. If there one thing Deuce does is play defense in fact he is the best perimeter defender on the team. You would think Thibs would be salivating to get him in the rotation
Similarly Cam Reddish. In retrospect the biggest harm to the team this year was the loss of Reggie Bullock. Losing Bullock completely wrecked the teams defense. Cam Reddish is a physical clone of Bullock with similar defensive ability but a lot lot better offensive upside. In short a potentially "better" Bullock. Yet Thibs refused to play him. Again as with the case with Deuce given Thibs affinity for defense completely baffling.
blkexec wrote:Sounds like thibs is reading my post. Well I hope he read the flowers I gave him for the win over the heat and trusting the yoots finally to close out a game. The FO can’t give thibs any options. Build the roster that fits thibs tight defensive rotation. We have a solid base now, just trim the weeds and old dead branches. Got some new roots sprouting this summer.
IQ
RJ
Grimes
Obi
Cam
Sims
Deuce
Mitch
That’s an 8 man rotation right there. Sub out Randle, burks (who I like) and noel for better pieces that fit that core of 8 young guns.
When you give him a too heavy roster of over paid vets, these guys get buried. Thibs is telling the FO hired Thibs. FO and the knick organization knows him well. Why the hell would you give him a deep roster like that with top paid players are either lacking defense or emotional maturity. FO set thibs up to fail.
Hot seat shifts to Leon Rose
blkexec wrote:blkexec wrote:Sounds like thibs is reading my post. Well I hope he read the flowers I gave him for the win over the heat and trusting the yoots finally to close out a game. The FO can’t give thibs any options. Build the roster that fits thibs tight defensive rotation. We have a solid base now, just trim the weeds and old dead branches. Got some new roots sprouting this summer.IQ
RJ
Grimes
Obi
Cam
Sims
Deuce
MitchThat’s an 8 man rotation right there. Sub out Randle, burks (who I like) and noel for better pieces that fit that core of 8 young guns.
When you give him a too heavy roster of over paid vets, these guys get buried. Thibs is telling the FO hired Thibs. FO and the knick organization knows him well. Why the hell would you give him a deep roster like that with top paid players are either lacking defense or emotional maturity. FO set thibs up to fail.
Hot seat shifts to Leon Rose
While I do agree with you about giving Thibs too many vets is not good. I also advocated about saving him from himself at the trade deadline by trading 1 or 2 of the guys.
However, when the season was young I did not agree with an all youth lineup I just want them to get opportunities to play and not be benched all year. Rose, EF, Burks and Noel all can do things to help us win. You just have to put players in a position to win and if they don't have it that game or in a slump go to someone else and not just force feed the same players.
Burks is not a PG. He should never play there. Keep him as an all around scorer off the bench.
EF is a great shooter but he is known to have off games where he will go 1 - 12. When it is obvious he is on one of those games give some of our young players game time. When it is obvious he is getting cooked on the defensive end Give Grimes or McBride more time that game depending on the matchup or if the other team is playing zone.
Rose and Noel are injury risks. Don't force Noel to play injured all year when he was clearly not healthy from the preseason. I would not be surprised if Noels foot injury came from bad biomechanics due to playing through his knee injury all year. Sims should have been getting time and experience.
Thibs did a good job initially sitting Kemba. However, he never even tried Kemba in a lesser role. It might have worked. Kemba just wanted to play. He did not care if he was starting or not. Even after Kemba was flat out sat he still went too heavily with vets before giving the youth a chance.
blkexec wrote:blkexec wrote:Sounds like thibs is reading my post. Well I hope he read the flowers I gave him for the win over the heat and trusting the yoots finally to close out a game. The FO can’t give thibs any options. Build the roster that fits thibs tight defensive rotation. We have a solid base now, just trim the weeds and old dead branches. Got some new roots sprouting this summer.IQ
RJ
Grimes
Obi
Cam
Sims
Deuce
MitchThat’s an 8 man rotation right there. Sub out Randle, burks (who I like) and noel for better pieces that fit that core of 8 young guns.
When you give him a too heavy roster of over paid vets, these guys get buried. Thibs is telling the FO hired Thibs. FO and the knick organization knows him well. Why the hell would you give him a deep roster like that with top paid players are either lacking defense or emotional maturity. FO set thibs up to fail.
Hot seat shifts to Leon Rose
I’m not sure that 8 has enough talent to win enough games to make the play offs.
I agree the FO failed, but I think their failure was building a roster that was dependent on 2 broken down PGs, and a third that was a second rounder, though admittedly a possible gem in Deuce.
And I do think Deuce should have been getting minutes earlier, that getting burn would have helped his development.
Right now, he and IQ should either start together or play the bulk of PG minutes for the last 8 games of the season- find out if they are ready to handle more.
blkexec wrote:blkexec wrote:Sounds like thibs is reading my post. Well I hope he read the flowers I gave him for the win over the heat and trusting the yoots finally to close out a game. The FO can’t give thibs any options. Build the roster that fits thibs tight defensive rotation. We have a solid base now, just trim the weeds and old dead branches. Got some new roots sprouting this summer.IQ
RJ
Grimes
Obi
Cam
Sims
Deuce
MitchThat’s an 8 man rotation right there. Sub out Randle, burks (who I like) and noel for better pieces that fit that core of 8 young guns.
When you give him a too heavy roster of over paid vets, these guys get buried. Thibs is telling the FO hired Thibs. FO and the knick organization knows him well. Why the hell would you give him a deep roster like that with top paid players are either lacking defense or emotional maturity. FO set thibs up to fail.
Hot seat shifts to Leon Rose
It’s interesting because the group you list is 21 to 24 years old. The top 6 highest paid players outside that group make 80.5mm and are mostly functional vets. If any are overpaid, it’s not by so much that they are not still ok contract.
23mm Randle
17mm Fournier
13.5 Rose
9.5 Burks
8.8 Noel
8.7 Walker
I think there is probably an OKC plan here that you pick up assets to supplement a core without being married to any vets.
Going into 2023 and that deep draft, I am fine running this squad and just building around it. Take back some bad contracts for draft picks and youth players.
McBride/Rose
Quickley/Grimes
Barrett/[Eason]
Toppin/Reddish
Robinson/Sims
I think there is a trade with Portland to give them some of our vets for picks like the #9 from Portland. Shaeden Sharpe might still be available at 9. Or Jalen Duren.
franco12 wrote:blkexec wrote:blkexec wrote:Sounds like thibs is reading my post. Well I hope he read the flowers I gave him for the win over the heat and trusting the yoots finally to close out a game. The FO can’t give thibs any options. Build the roster that fits thibs tight defensive rotation. We have a solid base now, just trim the weeds and old dead branches. Got some new roots sprouting this summer.IQ
RJ
Grimes
Obi
Cam
Sims
Deuce
MitchThat’s an 8 man rotation right there. Sub out Randle, burks (who I like) and noel for better pieces that fit that core of 8 young guns.
When you give him a too heavy roster of over paid vets, these guys get buried. Thibs is telling the FO hired Thibs. FO and the knick organization knows him well. Why the hell would you give him a deep roster like that with top paid players are either lacking defense or emotional maturity. FO set thibs up to fail.
Hot seat shifts to Leon Rose
I’m not sure that 8 has enough talent to win enough games to make the play offs.
I agree the FO failed, but I think their failure was building a roster that was dependent on 2 broken down PGs, and a third that was a second rounder, though admittedly a possible gem in Deuce.
And I do think Deuce should have been getting minutes earlier, that getting burn would have helped his development.
Right now, he and IQ should either start together or play the bulk of PG minutes for the last 8 games of the season- find out if they are ready to handle more.
We’ll hate to break the news but I can list the top vets on this team and you will say the same thing. Not enough talent to win a playoff game? These high priced vets can’t even make the playin tournament and we putting playoff winning expectations on the rookies? Slow down lol. I’m just listing our yoots plus add in the 6 vets. That’s 14 players all fighting to be in thibs 9 man rotation. This is now a FO problem to fix.
23mm Randle
17mm Fournier
13.5 Rose
9.5 Burks
8.8 Noel
8.7 Walker
franco12 wrote:blkexec wrote:blkexec wrote:Sounds like thibs is reading my post. Well I hope he read the flowers I gave him for the win over the heat and trusting the yoots finally to close out a game. The FO can’t give thibs any options. Build the roster that fits thibs tight defensive rotation. We have a solid base now, just trim the weeds and old dead branches. Got some new roots sprouting this summer.IQ
RJ
Grimes
Obi
Cam
Sims
Deuce
MitchThat’s an 8 man rotation right there. Sub out Randle, burks (who I like) and noel for better pieces that fit that core of 8 young guns.
When you give him a too heavy roster of over paid vets, these guys get buried. Thibs is telling the FO hired Thibs. FO and the knick organization knows him well. Why the hell would you give him a deep roster like that with top paid players are either lacking defense or emotional maturity. FO set thibs up to fail.
Hot seat shifts to Leon Rose
I’m not sure that 8 has enough talent to win enough games to make the play offs.
I agree the FO failed, but I think their failure was building a roster that was dependent on 2 broken down PGs, and a third that was a second rounder, though admittedly a possible gem in Deuce.
And I do think Deuce should have been getting minutes earlier, that getting burn would have helped his development.
Right now, he and IQ should either start together or play the bulk of PG minutes for the last 8 games of the season- find out if they are ready to handle more.
I agree with all of this you can’t give thibs that many vets, and that’s on the front office . But thibs if you watch so much video then why the hell did you roll with burks so long at pg(I like burks the player but he isn’t a pg) if your watching so much video then why are you still running the offense through a turnover machine in Randle who has trouble executing out of a double team . Yet you repeatedly ran through Randle killing all team chemistry in the process… how is that winning basketball or even smart coaching . Yet obi who plays great team basketball and helps push the ball has one mishap on defense and thibs pulls him immediately…you can watch those 9 great plays obi makes but your only focusing on one mistake ? You literally are contradicting yourself and your actions.
We deserve answers it’s clear obi deserves more minutes then the 8 to 10 mins he plays behind Randle.
Why IQ isn’t starting over burks, why is our best defensive guard just now getting some burn in McBride.
Here’s the thing your never going to change thibs but the front office can force his hand and mold a roster he has no choice but to play the kids .
This off season goals, draft the best player available.
Try and trade
Randle, EF and burks. Resign mitch for the right price
Next year roll with a rotation of youth with guys like McBride, grimes, IQ, obi and mitch with the star player being RJ
Let’s not discredit what Simms is doing out there too. What a nice piece to be part of the center rotation..
My other question is what dose Brunson do that IQ doesn’t and with Brunson at 20 mil how much better are we . Is Brunson the missing link ? I don’t see it man.
With this said Randle is a star and I think a lot of teams would love to have him on there roster . If the Knicks play there card right we could be running with a super young core of very good players for a long time especially if we nail this upcoming draft.
fitzfarm wrote:My other question is what dose Brunson do that IQ doesn’t and with Brunson at 20 mil how much better are we . Is Brunson the missing link ? I don’t see it man.
I'd say that one thing Brunson does that no other guard on the roster, outside of Rose, is put consistent pressure on opposing defenses at the rim. He shoots a career 72% at the rim! It would eliminate some of those contested twos the offense seems to default when a basket is needed. I think a guard like Brunson, who consistently run an offensive set would definitely take this team to another level. I know $20 million is a lot of money, but what other real options are out there to nail down the position?
Thibs comments were spot on, at least the 7 seconds worth listening to. He wants team unity.
Fans set expectations based on last year's team. You know... the one that Thibs coached. He's a good coach. He's far from perfect, but he's good. It impossible that guys like Obi and IQ are playing well BECAUSE of the coaching staff. Everything is always in spite.
Team plays hard. Its same shit year after year... we should be winning 50 games except for the coach.
fishmike wrote:its a dark day when fans look to Berman for pulse of the team.Thibs comments were spot on, at least the 7 seconds worth listening to. He wants team unity.
Fans set expectations based on last year's team. You know... the one that Thibs coached. He's a good coach. He's far from perfect, but he's good. It impossible that guys like Obi and IQ are playing well BECAUSE of the coaching staff. Everything is always in spite.
Team plays hard. Its same shit year after year... we should be winning 50 games except for the coach.
All of my reaction is to the words Thibs used - the quotations. Maybe Berman creates negative context to everything, but its not that I rely on Berman to tell me how to feel. If anything, I tend to think the opposite of whatever he writes.
If Thibs thinks its fans that create the dissension in the locker room, he is talking to the wrong people about attitude and relationship. We all see demeanor on the court. We all see that Randle is still trying to play iso ball and is using Fournier as the release valve to the exclusion of the other 3 people on the court. That disharmony isn't coming from the fans or social media and if Thibs doesn't see it, he has a significant blind spot.
That's the point of my post. He is validating his decisions based on the amount of tape watched -- and yes, he watches more tape than us. That's why he is the coach and gets the final decision. That said, he seems to be emotionally tied to his decisions and is truly slow to change. He seems to be using that process to validate decisions made months ago instead of challenging his assumptions. That second unit has been bailing out the starting unit all year. That's the only reason they even have 33 wins. You can call that "strategy" but it looks more like stubbornness. They are 5.5 games back from the 10 game play in with 7 games left.
Play the kids more and get them some experience.
EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:its a dark day when fans look to Berman for pulse of the team.Thibs comments were spot on, at least the 7 seconds worth listening to. He wants team unity.
Fans set expectations based on last year's team. You know... the one that Thibs coached. He's a good coach. He's far from perfect, but he's good. It impossible that guys like Obi and IQ are playing well BECAUSE of the coaching staff. Everything is always in spite.
Team plays hard. Its same shit year after year... we should be winning 50 games except for the coach.
All of my reaction is to the words Thibs used - the quotations. Maybe Berman creates negative context to everything, but its not that I rely on Berman to tell me how to feel. If anything, I tend to think the opposite of whatever he writes.
If Thibs thinks its fans that create the dissension in the locker room, he is talking to the wrong people about attitude and relationship. We all see demeanor on the court. We all see that Randle is still trying to play iso ball and is using Fournier as the release valve to the exclusion of the other 3 people on the court. That disharmony isn't coming from the fans or social media and if Thibs doesn't see it, he has a significant blind spot.
That's the point of my post. He is validating his decisions based on the amount of tape watched -- and yes, he watches more tape than us. That's why he is the coach and gets the final decision. That said, he seems to be emotionally tied to his decisions and is truly slow to change. He seems to be using that process to validate decisions made months ago instead of challenging his assumptions. That second unit has been bailing out the starting unit all year. That's the only reason they even have 33 wins. You can call that "strategy" but it looks more like stubbornness. They are 5.5 games back from the 10 game play in with 7 games left.
Play the kids more and get them some experience.
Am I crazy to see us play two different ways depending on who is on the court? It's not just who the opponent is.
McBride and IQ bring energy, activity to both sides of the ball. Obi wants to move without the ball, doesn't dribble unless it's to the basket or for an open pull up.
Same with Grimes, and I love Fournier- just Fournier should be coming off the bench.
Last night the ball kept getting put into Randle or RJs hands - and they are great players, but they can't break a defense down like IQ.
Part of this is I think IQ might be our most dynamic talent on the team, and not Randle or RJ.
EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:its a dark day when fans look to Berman for pulse of the team.Thibs comments were spot on, at least the 7 seconds worth listening to. He wants team unity.
Fans set expectations based on last year's team. You know... the one that Thibs coached. He's a good coach. He's far from perfect, but he's good. It impossible that guys like Obi and IQ are playing well BECAUSE of the coaching staff. Everything is always in spite.
Team plays hard. Its same shit year after year... we should be winning 50 games except for the coach.
All of my reaction is to the words Thibs used - the quotations. Maybe Berman creates negative context to everything, but its not that I rely on Berman to tell me how to feel. If anything, I tend to think the opposite of whatever he writes.
If Thibs thinks its fans that create the dissension in the locker room, he is talking to the wrong people about attitude and relationship. We all see demeanor on the court. We all see that Randle is still trying to play iso ball and is using Fournier as the release valve to the exclusion of the other 3 people on the court. That disharmony isn't coming from the fans or social media and if Thibs doesn't see it, he has a significant blind spot.
That's the point of my post. He is validating his decisions based on the amount of tape watched -- and yes, he watches more tape than us. That's why he is the coach and gets the final decision. That said, he seems to be emotionally tied to his decisions and is truly slow to change. He seems to be using that process to validate decisions made months ago instead of challenging his assumptions. That second unit has been bailing out the starting unit all year. That's the only reason they even have 33 wins. You can call that "strategy" but it looks more like stubbornness. They are 5.5 games back from the 10 game play in with 7 games left.
Play the kids more and get them some experience.
Did you watch the interview?
EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:its a dark day when fans look to Berman for pulse of the team.Thibs comments were spot on, at least the 7 seconds worth listening to. He wants team unity.
Fans set expectations based on last year's team. You know... the one that Thibs coached. He's a good coach. He's far from perfect, but he's good. It impossible that guys like Obi and IQ are playing well BECAUSE of the coaching staff. Everything is always in spite.
Team plays hard. Its same shit year after year... we should be winning 50 games except for the coach.
All of my reaction is to the words Thibs used - the quotations. Maybe Berman creates negative context to everything, but its not that I rely on Berman to tell me how to feel. If anything, I tend to think the opposite of whatever he writes.
If Thibs thinks its fans that create the dissension in the locker room, he is talking to the wrong people about attitude and relationship. We all see demeanor on the court. We all see that Randle is still trying to play iso ball and is using Fournier as the release valve to the exclusion of the other 3 people on the court. That disharmony isn't coming from the fans or social media and if Thibs doesn't see it, he has a significant blind spot.
That's the point of my post. He is validating his decisions based on the amount of tape watched -- and yes, he watches more tape than us. That's why he is the coach and gets the final decision. That said, he seems to be emotionally tied to his decisions and is truly slow to change. He seems to be using that process to validate decisions made months ago instead of challenging his assumptions. That second unit has been bailing out the starting unit all year. That's the only reason they even have 33 wins. You can call that "strategy" but it looks more like stubbornness. They are 5.5 games back from the 10 game play in with 7 games left.
Play the kids more and get them some experience.
Couldn't agree more with the bold...
Uptown wrote:what is stubborn? He sticks with the guys he trusts. He pushes back when comments are made without the whole picture. Just because social media says stuff doesnt make it true.EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:its a dark day when fans look to Berman for pulse of the team.Thibs comments were spot on, at least the 7 seconds worth listening to. He wants team unity.
Fans set expectations based on last year's team. You know... the one that Thibs coached. He's a good coach. He's far from perfect, but he's good. It impossible that guys like Obi and IQ are playing well BECAUSE of the coaching staff. Everything is always in spite.
Team plays hard. Its same shit year after year... we should be winning 50 games except for the coach.
All of my reaction is to the words Thibs used - the quotations. Maybe Berman creates negative context to everything, but its not that I rely on Berman to tell me how to feel. If anything, I tend to think the opposite of whatever he writes.
If Thibs thinks its fans that create the dissension in the locker room, he is talking to the wrong people about attitude and relationship. We all see demeanor on the court. We all see that Randle is still trying to play iso ball and is using Fournier as the release valve to the exclusion of the other 3 people on the court. That disharmony isn't coming from the fans or social media and if Thibs doesn't see it, he has a significant blind spot.
That's the point of my post. He is validating his decisions based on the amount of tape watched -- and yes, he watches more tape than us. That's why he is the coach and gets the final decision. That said, he seems to be emotionally tied to his decisions and is truly slow to change. He seems to be using that process to validate decisions made months ago instead of challenging his assumptions. That second unit has been bailing out the starting unit all year. That's the only reason they even have 33 wins. You can call that "strategy" but it looks more like stubbornness. They are 5.5 games back from the 10 game play in with 7 games left.
Play the kids more and get them some experience.
Couldn't agree more with the bold...
http://www.82games.com/2122/2122NYK.HTM
This is old.. updated 12/6 but tells you why he went with Burks and IQ for so long
You guy are talking about Thib's emotions here like he's a high school kid. Think about WHY he's slow to change. Think about WHY he doesnt bench Randle and throw Obi out there for some games. Think about WHY he doesnt take Burk's minutes and hand them to McBride.... can you THINK of any real world reasons an NBA coach may not do those things? (aside from his emotional shortcomings)
COY and a good start wasnt enough. He's got to know when to sit vets and turn 2nd rounders into season changing assets, and most of all get past all those pesky emotions keeping him from being able to do that. Got it.
Did anyone watch last year? Did anyone see Rose's impact on the team? We have no PGs, Randle had a shit season, RJ had a shit start, Mitch had a shit start, Kemba was trash and it took Fournier a couple months. I mean the last one is on Thibs if you to point that finger. Have at that. THE ONLY REASON you guys think this should be a winning team is because of what Thibs did last year. If you want to say Thibs sucks with out Rose have at that as well. Seems Kerr sucks with Curry, and Pop is pretty average without Duncan.
Record is a reflection of the team. Lucky for us we have a good young squad and a coaching staff that clearly puts a lot of time into the kids
3 game road trip and we win all of them. Two vs. winning teams. Road wins are qualit wins and this is with guys out, and yoot gaining experience.
Beginning of the end? BTW, what does WWW really do for knicks? He never coached? Never managed a team? What does he do to give him MORE CRED than Thibs and a minority of fans cling to that as “See, even WWW wants Yoot played?”
Too bad some of you can’t enjoy the growth, trials and tribulations of this season and the improvement of the over the last 6 weeks.
Too bad its too late and we cant make any noise in the play in which could have been fun. Im digging what is evolving with this team and no doubt still expect changes. But until the there are games to be played.
Im ok with thibs pushing back. Shows backbone.