WTF are both of Kemba Walker and Evan freaking Fournier doing on the KNICKS?
They need to be removed and removed asap.
I swear.
If Kemba Walker and especially Evan Fournier start again?
I won't watch.
Kemba Walker and especially Evan Fournier completely ruined and destroyed coach Thibs Defensive Identify (I said it from day 1).
and it's no coincidence how Boston gets rid of both atrocious scrubs and immediately makes the NBA finals the following season.
I'd rather go 0-82 than have to watch Kemba/Fournier play another single second.
(rant over).
Welcome back. Was getting worried.
There goes my afternoon of calmly watching the recorded League Pass game! Conspicious spoiler in the thread title, what could be grander?
Now I actually have to do something useful.
not for anything, but the Celtics could have used Fournier's shooting. Walker was, is and always will be washed up.
NYKMentality wrote:WTF are both of Kemba Walker and Evan freaking Fournier doing on the KNICKS?They need to be removed and removed asap.
I swear.
If Kemba Walker and especially Evan Fournier start again?
I won't watch.
Kemba Walker and especially Evan Fournier completely ruined and destroyed coach Thibs Defensive Identify (I said it from day 1).
and it's no coincidence how Boston gets rid of both atrocious scrubs and immediately makes the NBA finals the following season.
I'd rather go 0-82 than have to watch Kemba/Fournier play another single second.
(rant over).
Like nobody was laughing when Boston was unde .500 and we were over.
Beetlejuice comes back with good representation of “I told you so” fable hindsight.
I’d almost be glad if NYMental don’t watch but then he’d still rant on but with even less factual writing.
franco12 wrote:not for anything, but the Celtics could have used Fournier's shooting. Walker was, is and always will be washed up.
This. There’s zero association with them losing Fournier and suddenly making the finals. He would have been extremely useful for them. Kemba gone and having smart/white in those PG minutes was a huge difference maker no doubt.
Boston’s formula is really very simple. They have 2 franchise star wings and have them surrounded with defensive role players, led by the DPOY.
I think the point was that the Knicks went away from their core strategy for offense.
Bullock played pretty well for Dallas this year. It also takes coaching to recognize what works and what doesn’t and Thibs just didn’t adjust quick enough this year.
It’s also upsetting that you have some guys out there this offseason, Brunson, Bridges, Ayton that are updgrades, young snd would be tradable and we are stuck with Noel, Fournier and Kemba at $40MM or dead space.
The biggest difference in the Celtics is their coach. Thibs is an okay coach at best. The best is over with him and it’s going to be just a rocky ride from here on out. Kemba and Fournier were awful signings they took away from the young player minutes. As usual Knicks can’t stand to much of a good thing. It doesn’t matter who the GM is they just can’t help themselves. They didn’t need to do jack last year but stand pat and resign their players and develop.
The FO was stuck between a rock and a hard place. We needed offense badly. We got locked up by the Hawks and they are terrible on D. SO if we brought the same team back this year we had no chance of going through the Heat, Celtics or Bucks. We need offensive players because our coaches offense is not good enough to carry the players we have and we ISO Randle WAY too much for how inefficient he is. Also the Kemba part of the equation is a little overblown. Our roster was set when we added him. We did not go out of our way to sign him at the start of the offseason. We added him into the left over cap space we had when he came free and we still had room. The problem is we kept playing him when it was obvious things were never going to work out. It was the theme of the last season. Heavy minutes to the players who are not playing well and hope they can figure it out.
Clean wrote:The FO was stuck between a rock and a hard place. We needed offense badly. We got locked up by the Hawks and they are terrible on D. SO if we brought the same team back this year we had no chance of going through the Heat, Celtics or Bucks. We need offensive players because our coaches offense is not good enough to carry the players we have and we ISO Randle WAY too much for how inefficient he is. Also the Kemba part of the equation is a little overblown. Our roster was set when we added him. We did not go out of our way to sign him at the start of the offseason. We added him into the left over cap space we had when he came free and we still had room. The problem is we kept playing him when it was obvious things were never going to work out. It was the theme of the last season. Heavy minutes to the players who are not playing well and hope they can figure it out.
That’s what I’m getting at, they don’t trust the process of development. You have to think RJB will improve, Quickly, Obi will improve. They don’t trust the process enough and they succumb to try and hit home runs. When no home run hitters are available. One bad series should not affect a teams forward progression. When the team is young you’re building towards goals. You mentioned Heat, Bucks and Celtics they had to do their time. Just look at Brown and Tatum they had to do their time and develop. Even they took their shots with FA and it didn’t work for them. Bucks another team that did their time. Heat lucked into a finals but you see today that they develop players as well. Front office took a young and rising team and made them old and suppressed. Thibs just plays into it because he doesn’t trust young players. If front office doesn’t add Fournier and Kemba I guarantee that Thibs would have been forced to play the young players sooner rather than later.
So Kemba is now gone so…60 wins?
Clearly, Kemba needs to be traded. Fournier will be hard to trade without attaching an asset or including him as part of a bigger trade. The FO needs to develop a plan. I think Brunson played himself beyond what we can afford to pay him, and Dallas will probably resign him unless someone like Zach Levine decides to change teams and go to Dallas. I don't want to pay Ayton the max, but I would rather pay him $26 million a year than pay Mitch $20 million a year, as Ayton has far more upside on offense and is a solid defender. I think the team needs to exercise patience. We overachieved in 2021 and underachieved in 2022, but I think this team is growing and we will get some internal improvement just from the continued development of our under 24 year old players. But back to the topic, I think the biggest difference is Boston added Al Horford, which gave them a quality defender and 3pt shooter. He was huge for them in the playoffs and I don't think they make it without him. So I don't know that you can simply say, they got rid of Kemba and Fournier and now they are in the finals.
Great thread. So all we need to do is offload one of the best 3 point shooters in the league and we're going to the Finals!
I sure hope Leon is reading this.
jrodmc wrote:Great thread. So all we need to do is offload one of the best 3 point shooters in the league and we're going to the Finals! I sure hope Leon is reading this.
Fournier is not a good defender. But I saw effort from him and leadership - remember when he called out their offensive performance - it was a stinker of a game- the next game, he had a great performance.
I like Fournier. He's not perfect, but he is also not our problem.
If we're trying to get to the finals- and I am sure that is what everyone with the organization is trying to do- at some point you do need to ask if it is time to blow the roster up. It is far too early.
Will Fournier be on the roster when this franchise gets back to the playoffs- good shot of that happening next year.
Will he be on the roster when we make the finals again? Doubt it, but sadly a lot of us here will have stopped posting because we'll be dead!
- side note - great idea for the order of the NBA - add in how long it's been since a franchise was last in the finals!
Kemba and Fournier reeks of Scott Perry imo but the blame should go to Rose, Perrin, WWW and Thibs too.
I actually don't mind EF. Is he a good defender? No, but he was part of the team that played good defense for sections of last season. What hurt EF most of last season is he started the season hurts with an ankle injury and a shoulder injury. People for some reason never brings this up when talking about his slow start. Thibs also not wanting to break up the EF and Kemba starting lineup did both no favors. Both your backcourt can't be bad defenders. Why we could not at least try Kemba off the bench is something I will never understand. With EF he has games where he just won't hit a shot. The coaching staff needs to notice when these games are happening and bench him for the second half of them. Its the same thing with Reggie Bullock. Stop forcing them to play when they are off and try someone else.
SergioNYK wrote:Kemba and Fournier reeks of Scott Perry imo but the blame should go to Rose, Perrin, WWW and Thibs too.
And since Steve Mills hired Perry he has to be thrown into the chum bucket. Since PHil was fired and that caused Mills promotion, he gets blame for Kemba and Fornier too! 
Zanin and Aller also!!!!
Did Fornier play to his 18mm contract? After the slow start, did he not step up?
Replacing him might also produce a new player with a slow start? You dont’ remove Fornier and his history. You also don’t get a replacement that might do similar?
Boston was floundering after a slow start thru the first half of the season. Maybe fans were calling for a tank? Knicks were ahead of them record wise. Thats funny now in hindsight.
Remember Tatum was off to an awful start? Fans calling to trade one him or Brown? Callng for Udoka’s head too! what happend? Horford awoke, Smart was effective at Point, and they played defense. Took a while but they got it. The stuck it out. Not the fans, the players and the staff. Kemba gone was good for them. As for Fornier they could not afford to keep him. It worked out for them.
To simply say those two gone was the majjority reason is kind of short sighted. The fans prerogative.
Lets be real, Middleton does not get hurt we might not be seeing this.
Clean wrote:I actually don't mind EF. Is he a good defender? No, but he was part of the team that played good defense for sections of last season. What hurt EF most of last season is he started the season hurts with an ankle injury and a shoulder injury. People for some reason never brings this up when talking about his slow start. Thibs also not wanting to break up the EF and Kemba starting lineup did both no favors. Both your backcourt can't be bad defenders. Why we could not at least try Kemba off the bench is something I will never understand. With EF he has games where he just won't hit a shot. The coaching staff needs to notice when these games are happening and bench him for the second half of them. Its the same thing with Reggie Bullock. Stop forcing them to play when they are off and try someone else.
What were the reasonable solutions?
Philc1 wrote:So Kemba is now gone so…60 wins?
ish
From POst article today about Kemba:
The Post previously reported the Knicks analytics staff pushed the Walker signing when the franchise passed on free agents such as Lonzo Ball, Kyle Lowry, Spencer Dinwiddie, Dennis Schroeder, Reggie Jackson and Cam Payne.
Reggie had a good return year but was always rooted to return to LA. Ball has knee issue that ruined his season. Schoroeder and Payne fizzled, and Lowrey at 28mil per year looks like retired Paul pierce. Dinwiddie in DC vs Dallas is two different takes. Which one would have been a knick?
At 9mil per Kemba was a cost effective high risk. We lost. but 9mil makes him trade Fodder MAYBE.
Kemba is. A good dude, respected and well liked. Sometimes you win, sometomes you don’t. Im ok with this one. I don’t look for reasons to hate on Thibs so I don’t see his banashment as that. Why? Kemba never complained and until otherwise Im thinking it was mutual. Maybe IM wrong?
Vmart wrote:Clean wrote:The FO was stuck between a rock and a hard place. We needed offense badly. We got locked up by the Hawks and they are terrible on D. SO if we brought the same team back this year we had no chance of going through the Heat, Celtics or Bucks. We need offensive players because our coaches offense is not good enough to carry the players we have and we ISO Randle WAY too much for how inefficient he is. Also the Kemba part of the equation is a little overblown. Our roster was set when we added him. We did not go out of our way to sign him at the start of the offseason. We added him into the left over cap space we had when he came free and we still had room. The problem is we kept playing him when it was obvious things were never going to work out. It was the theme of the last season. Heavy minutes to the players who are not playing well and hope they can figure it out.
That’s what I’m getting at, they don’t trust the process of development. You have to think RJB will improve, Quickly, Obi will improve. They don’t trust the process enough and they succumb to try and hit home runs. When no home run hitters are available. One bad series should not affect a teams forward progression. When the team is young you’re building towards goals. You mentioned Heat, Bucks and Celtics they had to do their time. Just look at Brown and Tatum they had to do their time and develop. Even they took their shots with FA and it didn’t work for them. Bucks another team that did their time. Heat lucked into a finals but you see today that they develop players as well. Front office took a young and rising team and made them old and suppressed. Thibs just plays into it because he doesn’t trust young players. If front office doesn’t add Fournier and Kemba I guarantee that Thibs would have been forced to play the young players sooner rather than later.
I don't see it that way at all. Not sure how you can say they have not applied the principles & process of development to younger players like RJ, Mitch, IQ and Grimes. While the moves impacted defensive efficiency - adding Kemba & Fournier to replace Elf and Bullock did not suddenly make the entire roster old & suppressed.
Also - I don't really understand your point regarding Thibs "keep playing" Kemba:
- Kemba was DNP'd for 10 games after the first 19 games of the season.
- He then played 6 games and was again inactivated for the next 9 games.
- After that he played a total of 13 games and was inactivated for the remainder of the season.
