Knicks · Breakdown of the Kemba salary dump - I think the Knicks made out very well (page 1)

IMHO All the Knicks gave away for Kemba dump was 4 excess 2nd rounders and got back cap space (lots of obvious possibilities here) and a roster spot and moved a 2023 1st round pick to 2025.

Let's start time just after the Knicks traded pick #11, here is the summary of all the Knicks FUTURE assets at that moment:

2023 Knicks 1st
2023 Dallas 1st (protected 1-10 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Denver 1st (protected 1-14 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Detroit 1st (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027) [mostly likely 2025?]
2023 Washington 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026) [mostly likely 2023, definitely 2024?]

2023 Knicks 2nd
2023 Utah 2nd
2023 Dallas and Miami (more favorable) 2nd

2024 Knicks 1st
2024 Knicks 2nd
2024 Utah or Cleveland (more favorable) 2nd
2024 Detroit 2nd
2024 Miami 2nd

2025 Knicks 1st
2025 Knicks 2nd
2025 Brooklyn 2nd

Knicks had 8 (possible) picks in the double draft of 2023 and 5 picks in 2024. 13 picks in the next 2 years is bonkers. There is some likelihood that 4 of the 1sts hit in 2023?

Now, you never want to just give away assets but some times assets have less value for you in a particular draft. Do the Knicks REALLY need 4 second round picks in 2024? It's good in theory but not so much when most of them are likely late second rounders. So for the Knicks, those types of picks at this moment really don't have any heavy additional value (do you REALLY need 3 second rounders in a draft where you have 3-4 possible first rounders?). This is exactly the time you cull the herd and use your peanut assets.

The Knicks moved off of Kemba, 2024 Knicks 2nd (for which they have 3 other picks in the second round) and the 3 2023 second round picks in a draft where they most likely will have 3 first rounders from Knicks, Dallas, Washington 1st rounders. The cost of the Kemba dump IMHO is second rounders in a draft where you have a ton of first rounders already. I think that is not excessive.

So here is your asset list after the CHA/DET/NYK 3 way trade with Kemba off cap (cap space now ~$17M with 2022 pick, Kemba and Taj off)

2023 Knicks 1st
2023 Dallas 1st (protected 1-10 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Detroit 1st (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027) [mostly likely 2025?]
2023 Washington 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026) [mostly likely 2023?]

2024 Knicks 1st
2024 Utah or Cleveland (more favorable) 2nd
2024 Detroit 2nd
2024 Miami 2nd

2025 Knicks 1st
2025 Milwaukee 1st (protected 1-4)
2025 Knicks 2nd
2025 Brooklyn 2nd

For me, in essence, the Knicks moved the Denver 2023 (protected 1-14, so likely around #25) to a 2025 Milwaukee (protected 1-4) and moved off of 4 second round picks 2 of which were going to be very late picks.

If the Knicks do use the cap space to nab Brunson, the will have used the cap space saved by 2022 #11 pick, Kemba gone and 4 second round picks while moving the Denver 2023 pick to the Milwaukee 2025 pick.

I hope and think I got the details right.

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Knicks-Hornets trade

Knicks receive:
• No. 13 pick (Jalen Duren)
Hornets receive:
• 2023 first round pick via Denver (protected 1-14 until 2025)
• 2023 second round pick via New York
• 2023 second round pick via Utah
• 2023 second round pick (most favorable pick between Dallas and Miami)
• 2024 second round pick via New York

Knicks-Pistons trade

Knicks receive:
• 2025 first-round pick via Milwaukee (protected 1-4)
Pistons receive:
• No. 13 pick (Jalen Duren)
• Kemba Walker

Good summary Martin thx 👍 for details of a rough knix 🌙 night🤔

martin wrote:IMHO All the Knicks gave away for Kemba dump was 4 excess 2nd rounders and got back cap space (lots of obvious possibilities here) and a roster spot and moved a 2023 1st round pick to 2025.

Let's start time just after the Knicks traded pick #11, here is the summary of all the Knicks FUTURE assets at that moment:

2023 Knicks 1st
2023 Dallas 1st (protected 1-10 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Denver 1st (protected 1-14 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Detroit 1st (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027) [mostly likely 2025?]
2023 Washington 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026) [mostly likely 2023, definitely 2024?]

2023 Knicks 2nd
2023 Utah 2nd
2023 Dallas and Miami (more favorable) 2nd

2024 Knicks 1st
2024 Knicks 2nd
2024 Utah or Cleveland (more favorable) 2nd
2024 Detroit 2nd
2024 Miami 2nd

2025 Knicks 1st
2025 Knicks 2nd
2025 Brooklyn 2nd

Knicks had 8 (possible) picks in the double draft of 2023 and 5 picks in 2024. 13 picks in the next 2 years is bonkers. There is some likelihood that 4 of the 1sts hit in 2023?

Now, you never want to just give away assets but some times assets have less value for you in a particular draft. Do the Knicks REALLY need 4 second round picks in 2024? It's good in theory but not so much when most of them are likely late second rounders. So for the Knicks, those types of picks at this moment really don't have any heavy additional value (do you REALLY need 3 second rounders in a draft where you have 3-4 possible first rounders?). This is exactly the time you cull the herd and use your peanut assets.

The Knicks moved off of Kemba, 2024 Knicks 2nd (for which they have 3 other picks in the second round) and the 3 2023 second round picks in a draft where they most likely will have 3 first rounders from Knicks, Dallas, Washington 1st rounders. The cost of the Kemba dump IMHO is second rounders in a draft where you have a ton of first rounders already. I think that is not excessive.

So here is your asset list after the CHA/DET/NYK 3 way trade with Kemba off cap (cap space now ~$17M with 2022 pick, Kemba and Taj off)

2023 Knicks 1st
2023 Dallas 1st (protected 1-10 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Detroit 1st (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027) [mostly likely 2025?]
2023 Washington 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026) [mostly likely 2023?]

2024 Knicks 1st
2024 Utah or Cleveland (more favorable) 2nd
2024 Detroit 2nd
2024 Miami 2nd

2025 Knicks 1st
2025 Milwaukee 1st (protected 1-4)
2025 Knicks 2nd
2025 Brooklyn 2nd

For me, in essence, the Knicks moved the Denver 2023 (protected 1-14, so likely around #25) to a 2025 Milwaukee (protected 1-4) and moved off of 4 second round picks 2 of which were going to be very late picks.

If the Knicks do use the cap space to nab Brunson, the will have used the cap space saved by 2022 #11 pick, Kemba gone and 4 second round picks while moving the Denver 2023 pick to the Milwaukee 2025 pick.

I hope and think I got the details right.

When you lay it out like this all those 2nds being sent out doesn't seem so bad anymore. I thought all our 2nds were gone but still have plenty left in the cupboard. I feel much better about the trades now, thanks Martin.

martin wrote:IMHO All the Knicks gave away for Kemba dump was 4 excess 2nd rounders and got back cap space (lots of obvious possibilities here) and a roster spot and moved a 2023 1st round pick to 2025.

Let's start time just after the Knicks traded pick #11, here is the summary of all the Knicks FUTURE assets at that moment:

2023 Knicks 1st
2023 Dallas 1st (protected 1-10 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Denver 1st (protected 1-14 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Detroit 1st (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027) [mostly likely 2025?]
2023 Washington 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026) [mostly likely 2023, definitely 2024?]

2023 Knicks 2nd
2023 Utah 2nd
2023 Dallas and Miami (more favorable) 2nd

2024 Knicks 1st
2024 Knicks 2nd
2024 Utah or Cleveland (more favorable) 2nd
2024 Detroit 2nd
2024 Miami 2nd

2025 Knicks 1st
2025 Knicks 2nd
2025 Brooklyn 2nd

Knicks had 8 (possible) picks in the double draft of 2023 and 5 picks in 2024. 13 picks in the next 2 years is bonkers. There is some likelihood that 4 of the 1sts hit in 2023?

Now, you never want to just give away assets but some times assets have less value for you in a particular draft. Do the Knicks REALLY need 4 second round picks in 2024? It's good in theory but not so much when most of them are likely late second rounders. So for the Knicks, those types of picks at this moment really don't have any heavy additional value (do you REALLY need 3 second rounders in a draft where you have 3-4 possible first rounders?). This is exactly the time you cull the herd and use your peanut assets.

The Knicks moved off of Kemba, 2024 Knicks 2nd (for which they have 3 other picks in the second round) and the 3 2023 second round picks in a draft where they most likely will have 3 first rounders from Knicks, Dallas, Washington 1st rounders. The cost of the Kemba dump IMHO is second rounders in a draft where you have a ton of first rounders already. I think that is not excessive.

So here is your asset list after the CHA/DET/NYK 3 way trade with Kemba off cap (cap space now ~$17M with 2022 pick, Kemba and Taj off)

2023 Knicks 1st
2023 Dallas 1st (protected 1-10 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Detroit 1st (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027) [mostly likely 2025?]
2023 Washington 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026) [mostly likely 2023?]

2024 Knicks 1st
2024 Utah or Cleveland (more favorable) 2nd
2024 Detroit 2nd
2024 Miami 2nd

2025 Knicks 1st
2025 Milwaukee 1st (protected 1-4)
2025 Knicks 2nd
2025 Brooklyn 2nd

For me, in essence, the Knicks moved the Denver 2023 (protected 1-14, so likely around #25) to a 2025 Milwaukee (protected 1-4) and moved off of 4 second round picks 2 of which were going to be very late picks.

If the Knicks do use the cap space to nab Brunson, the will have used the cap space saved by 2022 #11 pick, Kemba gone and 4 second round picks while moving the Denver 2023 pick to the Milwaukee 2025 pick.

I hope and think I got the details right.

When I woke up yesterday mourning and evaluated. While was praying for Ivey, wasn't mad at the decision made after Ivey was no longer in play. Mark Williams and Duren were players I was interested in. But they are dime a dozen players. Getting the 3 first from OKC and then using one of those first from 2023 to kick down to 2025 while shedding 9mil to create 17-18mil in cap space wasn't bad. Only thing I would say is would of liked if Rose was able to include Burks or Noel to also be in the deal. Pistons have a ton a cap space and really wanted Duren.

Those 2nd round picks that were acquired weren't just to draft players who won't get mins, but use in deals such as this.

It was a very shrewd move. Excellent job getting us under the cap to sign a pg and we probably have multiple picks in the double draft next season

Thanks for the summary. Well done

Smart but not sexy move

I think they’re good at talent evaluation too and saw JAGs. In fact a lot of the guys spoken about here went many picks later

This breakdown makes me less mad though if all this was for Brunson and to avoid taking on salary to chase him I will still be very disappointed.

thanks martin

You know what is wild? I actually forgot one 2023 second round pick that that Knicks already owned, so those 4 second round pick they gave away are even "less" valuable or not as diminishing.

ALSO, when the Knicks move Kemba, they create $9M in cap space - almost enough to be in the Brunson game and plenty of viable room for Tyson Jones or if they would like to be in the hunt for Dejounte Murray ($16.5M).

The Kemba move gets the Knicks a double dip I think. They get $9M in cap space AND a $9M TPE. Right!?

I think this is how the cap space is calculated:

BEFORE NY/CHA/DET Trade:

~$7M cap space.
2023 Knicks 1st
2023 Dallas 1st (protected 1-10 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Denver 1st (protected 1-14 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Detroit 1st (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027) [mostly likely 2025?]
2023 Washington 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026) [mostly likely 2023, definitely 2024?]

2023 Detroit 2nd (FORGOT THIS ABOVE)
2023 Knicks 2nd
2023 Utah 2nd
2023 Dallas and Miami (more favorable) 2nd

2024 Knicks 1st
2024 Knicks 2nd
2024 Utah or Cleveland (more favorable) 2nd
2024 Detroit 2nd
2024 Miami 2nd

2025 Knicks 1st
2025 Knicks 2nd
2025 Brooklyn 2nd

AFTER NY/CHA/DET Trade:

~$16M cap space ($5M saved from the 2022 #11 pick, $9M Kemba, they were $2M below already) AND $9M TPE

2023 Knicks 1st
2023 Dallas 1st (protected 1-10 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Denver 1st (protected 1-14 until 2025) [mostly likely 2023?]
2023 Detroit 1st (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027) [mostly likely 2025?]
2023 Washington 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026) [mostly likely 2023, definitely 2024?]

2023 Detroit 2nd
2023 Knicks 2nd
2023 Utah 2nd
2023 Dallas and Miami (more favorable) 2nd

2024 Knicks 1st
2024 Knicks 2nd
2024 Utah or Cleveland (more favorable) 2nd
2024 Detroit 2nd
2024 Miami 2nd

2025 Knicks 1st
NEW 2025 Milwaukee 1st (protected 1-4)
2025 Knicks 2nd
2025 Brooklyn 2nd

The insane reaction of media and most fans to these solid move illustrates that our educational system is broken. Or more people are on drugs than we thought. Or something. I hope Leon and company stay the slow rebuild course and don’t give in to the bing bongers and snakes.

This is legit the most complicated series of trades I have ever tried to comprehend. Let me see if I understand this correctly now.

Trade 1 is Our #11 for 3 OKC picks.

Trade 2 is 1 of those OKC picks and 4 seconds for #13 from Char

Trade 3 is #13 from Char for Bucks 1st and salary dump

If this is correct you guys just explained something that I could not figure out since the draft. That Brock Aller guy must be a genius because this had me confused for the longest and he had to figure this stuff out with a time limit.

Clean wrote:This is legit the most complicated series of trades I have ever tried to comprehend. Let me see if I understand this correctly now.

Trade 1 is Our #11 for 3 OKC picks.

Trade 2 is 1 of those OKC picks and 4 seconds for #13 from Char

Trade 3 is #13 from Char for Bucks 1st and salary dump

If this is correct you guys just explained something that I could not figure out since the draft. That Brock Aller guy must be a genius because this had me confused for the longest and he had to figure this stuff out with a time limit.

Clean, your post above is correct insofar as I understand. The Knicks also get $9M in cap space AND $9M TPE to use over the next year.

Angry knick fans riding with that fuel. Results matter and we have years of pent up frustration.
I guess if Stephan and and Spike are angry, so can we.

Here's another piece of info about the picks from someone on Reddit. I won't claim to fully understand, but thought it might be of interest:

That’s not how pick protection value works.
Nowadays you don’t see picks traded without protections so the protections on those picks are pretty much normal. Now the real value of those picks are the fact that we now control Washingtons and Detroits ability to trade the rest of their picks. Which means if they are looking to make moves and use those picks they need to pay us to lift those restrictions. So not only will we have the picks but they’ll pay us to make them unrestricted to gain the ability to trade.
Getting 3 future first round picks for pick 11 in a weak draft where no prospect is expected to be a franchise changer is an amazing return.

For example detroits pick is heavily protected for the next 3-4 years so they can’t trade any other pick until like 2028. If next year they wanna make a swing for another star and they wanna be able to use the rest of their picks they’ll have to call us and ask us to lift the protections so they aren’t bound by the stepian rule.
That’s when Leon is gonna be like “ok no problem give me a second round pick for each year of protection left”

Credit to u/DosViews

Knicks, Aller, PErry and Leon are so far ahead of us we look dumb now for freaing the fuck out?

Kemba. 9M.

Shipping Kemba and his smiling face (even when we’re down by 20) out of town. Priceless.

Part of me feels bad for Kemba. But the dude is raking in millions year after year. And is a defensive liability. So I don’t feel THAT bad.

1st of all thanks for everyone explaining that so I could finally understand it. Now that it I understand each trade it does change my feelings on draft night. If we indeed did not like anyone left then trading #11 for 3 1sts is not a bad move. I mean we got a draft pick right behind ours for one 1st and four 2nd round picks. The Pistons trade also seems better now that it is basically a draft pick swap for the salary dump. The bucks pick will be worse than the 13 given to Det but that is the price we paid for the salary dump and TPE.

Even though I feel better about the draft night deals it all still depends on what we do with the flexibility we now have. We have all these connections to Brunson so I believe that we know for a fact that he is coming for us to be doing all of this.

ToddTT wrote:Kemba. 9M.

Shipping Kemba and his smiling face (even when we’re down by 20) out of town. Priceless.

Part of me feels bad for Kemba. But the dude is raking in millions year after year. And is a defensive liability. So I don’t feel THAT bad.

I think ALL Knicks fans wanted to love him and see him create some moments in MSG. Unfortunately his knee was shot and he got ~$18M for about 40 games.

efw wrote:Here's another piece of info about the picks from someone on Reddit. I won't claim to fully understand, but thought it might be of interest:

That’s not how pick protection value works.
Nowadays you don’t see picks traded without protections so the protections on those picks are pretty much normal. Now the real value of those picks are the fact that we now control Washingtons and Detroits ability to trade the rest of their picks. Which means if they are looking to make moves and use those picks they need to pay us to lift those restrictions. So not only will we have the picks but they’ll pay us to make them unrestricted to gain the ability to trade.
Getting 3 future first round picks for pick 11 in a weak draft where no prospect is expected to be a franchise changer is an amazing return.

For example detroits pick is heavily protected for the next 3-4 years so they can’t trade any other pick until like 2028. If next year they wanna make a swing for another star and they wanna be able to use the rest of their picks they’ll have to call us and ask us to lift the protections so they aren’t bound by the stepian rule.
That’s when Leon is gonna be like “ok no problem give me a second round pick for each year of protection left”

Credit to u/DosViews

Kuddos, this is awesome. Even better.

Clean wrote:1st of all thanks for everyone explaining that so I could finally understand it. Now that it I understand each trade it does change my feelings on draft night. If we indeed did not like anyone left then trading #11 for 3 1sts is not a bad move. I mean we got a draft pick right behind ours for one 1st and four 2nd round picks. The Pistons trade also seems better now that it is basically a draft pick swap for the salary dump. The bucks pick will be worse than the 13 given to Det but that is the price we paid for the salary dump and TPE.

Even though I feel better about the draft night deals it all still depends on what we do with the flexibility we now have. We have all these connections to Brunson so I believe that we know for a fact that he is coming for us to be doing all of this.

So here is the weird thing on the difference between those 2 picks, especially from Knicks point of view. IMHO, they got the BETTER pick for their circumstance, but that's eye of the beholder opinion.

Essentially Knicks are choosing between Denver 2023 pick (protected 1-14) and Milwaukee 2025 pick (protected 1-4).

From Knicks standpoint, they will already have first rounder 2023 Knicks, 2023 Dallas, most likely 2023 Washington (protected 1-14) and 2023 2nd rounder from Detroit. Do the Knicks REALLY need that Denver pick next year which will be in the #25 range? Charlotte wanted that pick cause they had zero 2023 picks and it met their need (it's why they wanted all those 2023 second rounders too). Knicks IMO as satisfied moving that pick to a later year in 2025.