Knicks · Knicks in on Mitchell trade (page 6)

doomed wrote:Serious question: if we aren’t going all in on Mitchell, if not now, then when??

Fine, Mitchell and the fit might not be perfect, but what if it is still pretty damn good? We’re talking about a backcourt of Brunson, who is a ready made leader/player and Donovan Mitchell. The same Mitchell who’s 25 and a 3 time all star. But now the backcourt is too small? Not good enough? Are we sure about that??

Ok fine, let’s wait even longer for that perfect player? And where is that player exactly? And when Does he avail himself? I get not panicking but this isn’t a panic move. This is a 25 year old super star.

I get the slight trepidation but some of you are scared to make a move. And some keep saying that the Knicks would be like the melo days with no chance to improve after this deal. Again, are you sure? Do you know for sure the cap space wouldn’t be there? Prove it. Also, the Knicks were paying Stat and Chandler huge money. Stat got hurt and chandler got old and traded not long after that. And then they wasted more money on Noah. They had money and wasted it with melo. They also had not nearly the same cache of talent that this team has right now. The pre melo Knicks had like 2-3 young chips and not nearly the draft capital this team has today. This team has double the young talent player base as well. Saying this would be melo all over again is fear mongering nonsense not based on any facts.

I guess we’re waiting for mr right. Thought Mitchell was that guy but I guess not anymore….all because we signed a good 25 year old PG who isn’t 6’6?? I guess we’re not ready? Then when are we ready? Where’s that player? He better be better than Mitchell. You sure he is?

These are the players that 6 months ago you wouldn't have thought would be on the market: Donovan, KD, Kyrie, Gobert, DeJounte. Also, Harden, Ben Simmons, Jerami Grant.

I guess the better question is who hasn't availed themselves?

RJ might not be as good as Mitchell, but he is 4 years younger- to me, it's like swapping the same player, just one is 4 years older.

Good to hear maybe we don't want to trade RJ- and thinking about any deal, I am sure they (our FO) is thinking who are the players they want on the roster for next year:

Brunson
Mitchell
RJ
Randle
Robinson

To me, that is an exciting group that may have it's challenges on both sides of the ball, but I trust Thibs to get the most out of them (though I may still criticize him if this comes to pass and the season starts!)

If the Knicks and Utah have come to some sort of agreement on a fundamental trade, they have at least agreed on the base outgoing players (salary-wise) from the Knicks. That means they either have agreed to include RJ or not. If not, Utah has either agreed on taking Fournier or Randle (base salary you need to get to the $24.3M mark). Maybe you could start with Rose but I doubt they do that from Knicks standpoint.

Fournier $18M + Cam $6M + a little more gets you to $24.3; that would be a prime starting point. Or just Randle $23.7 + a little more.

That little more stuff is any combo of Grimes, IQ, Obi. I guess you could include McBride but I don't think Utah values him and he would be a throw-in.

And then picks.

That's the outline. I think.

franco12 wrote:If we are trading RJ- then I think that is almost like doing a straight up trade, and outside of matching salaries, I'm not including picks, or at most 1 or 2 that are protected.

RJ might not be as good as Mitchell, but he is 4 years younger- to me, it's like swapping the same player, just one is 4 years older.

Good to hear maybe we don't want to trade RJ- and thinking about any deal, I am sure they (our FO) is thinking who are the players they want on the roster for next year:

Brunson
Mitchell
RJ
Randle
Robinson

To me, that is an exciting group that may have it's challenges on both sides of the ball, but I trust Thibs to get the most out of them (though I may still criticize him if this comes to pass and the season starts!)

Agree. RJ has kept getting better, despite the PG carousel. Speaks to his focus, drive. Dont want to gut the team either. Dont want to see whats left of the roster after a Mitchell trade making it necessary for Brunson/Mitchell backcourt to do most of the heavy lifting on offense. As opposed to a more balanced attack.

Also makes injuries more likely if they are leaned on too much. Will be counted on a great deal as it is.

Still believe we should see how Brunson changes the chemistry before the next big move. But if it happens, I hope the FO stays disciplined when dealing with Ainge.

We will not be that team structured around Brunson/Mitchell/RJ/Randle

BUT

Knicks/MSG isnt really about titles these days, its about being relevant again and that team will accomplish that.

Watching a Brunson/Mitchell backcourt defend every night is gonna wear really thin really fast on this fanbase. Randle will be the happiest dude in town. He'll right "told ya" on his shoes

Philc1 wrote:Why are we trading RJ? Ugh wtf just when you think things are looking good

Knicks aren't though so why even bring it up?

MS wrote:It’s going to be RJ , Grimes , Simms and three picks

Nauseous

Philc1 wrote:

MS wrote:It’s going to be RJ , Grimes , Simms and three picks

Nauseous

Sims was just signed and can't be traded. You guys know this right?

Utah Jazz

2023 - Own; Least favorable of BRK, HOU and PHL (via HOU swap for BRK; via BRK to UTH); MIN

2024 - 1-10 Own; 11-30 to OKC

2025 - 1-10 Own; 11-30 to OKC if not already settled; MIN

2026 - 1-8 Own or swap for MIN; 9-30 to OKC if not already settled; or Own or swap for MIN if UTH has conveyed 1st round pick to OKC by 2025

2027 - Own; MIN

2028 - Own

2029 - Own; MIN 6-30

New York Knicks

2023 - Own; DAL 11-30; DET 19-30 (via HOU to OKC); WAS 15-30 (via HOU to OKC)

2024 - Own; DAL 11-30 if not already settled; DET 19-30 (via HOU to OKC) if not already settled; WAS 13-30 (via HOU to OKC) if not already settled

2025 - Own; DAL 11-30 if not already settled; DET 14-30 (via HOU to OKC) if not already settled; WAS 11-30 (via HOU to OKC) if not already settled; MIL 5-30 (via NOP to POR to DET)

2026 - Own; DET 12-30 (via HOU to OKC) if not already settled; WAS 9-30 (via HOU to OKC) if not already settled

2027 - Own; DET 10-30 (via HOU to OKC) if not already settled

2028 - Own

2029 - Own

Just going by Utah's own picks which were traded with protection, it looks like Utah will be hoping to bottom out until 2025. Trading for RJ Obi IQ or Rose doesn't make much sense. I think Fournier might be able to get them another 1st round pick at the deadline and Grimes could be a building block. Reddish might be another guy who can play 30 minutes a game and net some draft assets at the deadline for his bird rights. After being initially against it I have come around. Locking Brunson, D Mitchell, RJ Randle and Robinson gives us a good shot at the Finais over the next 4 years.

martin wrote:Donovan salary is $30M, that means outgoing salary must be minimum of ~$24.3M (min outgoing salary must be salary * 1.25 + $100,000 > Donovan salary) if we are just talking about a base trade of Mitchell for players + whatever.

If the Knicks and Utah have come to some sort of agreement on a fundamental trade, they have at least agreed on the base outgoing players (salary-wise) from the Knicks. That means they either have agreed to include RJ or not. If not, Utah has either agreed on taking Fournier or Randle (base salary you need to get to the $24.3M mark). Maybe you could start with Rose but I doubt they do that from Knicks standpoint.

Fournier $18M + Cam $6M + a little more gets you to $24.3; that would be a prime starting point. Or just Randle $23.7 + a little more.

That little more stuff is any combo of Grimes, IQ, Obi. I guess you could include McBride but I don't think Utah values him and he would be a throw-in.

And then picks.

That's the outline. I think.

Yes Fournier and Cam is probably the baseline easiest starting point. My guess is they are asking for Fournier, Obi and either IQ or Grimes plus the picks. Losing Grimes leaves us painfully low on wing players. Knicks likely keeping RJ, which is key, but need to also keep either Cam or Grimes at a minimum. I really don’t see how IQ wouldn’t go out in a trade given the Knicks will be starting 2 smaller guards and still have Rose off the bench. Seems like a rotation including 4 guards 6’3 or smaller isn’t ideal. Quickley is friends with Obi and Mitchell which is a drawback. But I can also see the Knicks signing Eric Paschall as a backup 3/4 who is friends with Mitchell, Obi and Brunson. I just see a lot of the personal connections factoring in here.

martin wrote:

Philc1 wrote:Why are we trading RJ? Ugh wtf just when you think things are looking good

Knicks aren't though so why even bring it up?

Ainge is going to want RJ. Our future picks aren’t great

martin wrote:Was Conley some sort of stout defender? I don't remember. Their small back court of Mitchell/Conley seemed to be OK?

Was it though?
WE running OBI at the 4? Thibs will freak over the lack of defense? OK, so we fire Thibs. That make it. Better?
“Bring in MDA as offensive coordinator”. HEard that before.
I’m just baffled more than anything if this goes down. I can’t see the forest on this one. Don’t make it wrong. I have more questions than answers.

I know this is not a championship team over night. I know its easy to give up picks when there is a prize like SpidaMitch. WE’ll likely be bringing back other players so its not a straight up concept.

While he is much better than EF, do we not wince about DonMitch defense also?

RJ I hope is off the table.

With he current salary inflation and likely rising TV revenue our contracts are not the albatrosses thought of just a few weeks ago.

Wrapping my head around Randle and his 15% trade kicker.
That we pay 26th for a free agent THEN do this deal.
That wingspan can’t solve things as thrown out there.

Logic tells me Leon in there to make a try as we have the assets but drive price up Nets pay for him. We may be on the peripheral to scoop up assets to facilitate a deal for others. Remember when OKC with its gaudy pick base was in on many convo’s? If a team is but ever so close to making a deal they could over pay for the last piece and this is where we fit in. Not for the main piece, but for a minor one.

Don’t forget Roka’s as a chip to spend.

IM intrigued:

MitchRob
Bully Randle
RJ
Brunson
Spida

Defensively Randle is not terrible. I’m talking about rebounding with buy in and a good contract happy randle. We don’t need “We here” randle, we need 15-10 randle. We need him to punish dudes inside randle.

How do we get to this? Anyone but these guys are on the table. IQ is gone, Fournier is gone. I can’t see Leon trading out Drose. But salary he might have to. I can’t gauge Obi’s value. Grimes is a high value chip because of his salary. You can start him and he barely dents the salary cap. The better teams have that one guy that we go “WTF” and why can’t we do that? Annually Miami does this as well as anyone Duncan Rob one year, Strus another.

Which leads me into the faith of the unknown. If the better teams do this kind of shit, should we? Do we cash in the loot on Spida? Does Brunson and him add up to equate to a greater chemistry? 1+1=3 type thing?

2024 finals= Knicks vs Timberwolves!!!

fishmike wrote:if you make a trade for a player that is going to include a ton of picks you need to make sure you have close to the structure of a team that can compete for a title.

We will not be that team structured around Brunson/Mitchell/RJ/Randle

BUT

Knicks/MSG isnt really about titles these days, its about being relevant again and that team will accomplish that.

Watching a Brunson/Mitchell backcourt defend every night is gonna wear really thin really fast on this fanbase. Randle will be the happiest dude in town. He'll right "told ya" on his shoes

I agree- but if you are able to add Mitchell to an RJ/Brunson/Robinson/Randle team - those guys are all right there in their prime - and you hope for next steps from Mitchell- dude is 25 and probably has another level to get to? And you hope that RJ definitely takes 2 levels up (questionable, I know)- and that Brunson gives you the kind of performance you saw in the playoffs - and that he can help get more out of guys like Robinson and Randle.

If these players on our roster are the cards you've been dealt, I don't think waiting is the smart move (if you want to keep your job in any capacity.)

And honestly - not to drink the kool aid - but how far off is Mitchell at 25 from where Curry was at 25? Can we say with certainty that Mitchell can't get to a level comparable with Curry?

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:if you make a trade for a player that is going to include a ton of picks you need to make sure you have close to the structure of a team that can compete for a title.

We will not be that team structured around Brunson/Mitchell/RJ/Randle

BUT

Knicks/MSG isnt really about titles these days, its about being relevant again and that team will accomplish that.

Watching a Brunson/Mitchell backcourt defend every night is gonna wear really thin really fast on this fanbase. Randle will be the happiest dude in town. He'll right "told ya" on his shoes

I agree- but if you are able to add Mitchell to an RJ/Brunson/Robinson/Randle team - those guys are all right there in their prime - and you hope for next steps from Mitchell- dude is 25 and probably has another level to get to? And you hope that RJ definitely takes 2 levels up (questionable, I know)- and that Brunson gives you the kind of performance you saw in the playoffs - and that he can help get more out of guys like Robinson and Randle.

If these players on our roster are the cards you've been dealt, I don't think waiting is the smart move (if you want to keep your job in any capacity.)

And honestly - not to drink the kool aid - but how far off is Mitchell at 25 from where Curry was at 25? Can we say with certainty that Mitchell can't get to a level comparable with Curry?

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:if you make a trade for a player that is going to include a ton of picks you need to make sure you have close to the structure of a team that can compete for a title.

We will not be that team structured around Brunson/Mitchell/RJ/Randle

BUT

Knicks/MSG isnt really about titles these days, its about being relevant again and that team will accomplish that.

Watching a Brunson/Mitchell backcourt defend every night is gonna wear really thin really fast on this fanbase. Randle will be the happiest dude in town. He'll right "told ya" on his shoes

I agree- but if you are able to add Mitchell to an RJ/Brunson/Robinson/Randle team - those guys are all right there in their prime - and you hope for next steps from Mitchell- dude is 25 and probably has another level to get to? And you hope that RJ definitely takes 2 levels up (questionable, I know)- and that Brunson gives you the kind of performance you saw in the playoffs - and that he can help get more out of guys like Robinson and Randle.

If these players on our roster are the cards you've been dealt, I don't think waiting is the smart move (if you want to keep your job in any capacity.)

And honestly - not to drink the kool aid - but how far off is Mitchell at 25 from where Curry was at 25? Can we say with certainty that Mitchell can't get to a level comparable with Curry?

Good questions. Basically DoMitch surrounded by better talent grow more. I’d say his ceiling is Lillard-like.
In the end its either stupid or the aggregate expands thru chemistry then the sum of the parts.
My nagging thinking is there is a deal with Utah, Brooklyn, and PHX where

Durant to PHX
Mitchell to BKN
Ayton to Utah

Where are we? Utah would be ignorant to not engage others to make bids. Sets the bar. At the end of the day he has to justify some valuation to his owner who really is the one making the final decision.
Having our toes in the water perhaps (I have said this elsewhere) puts us in the game but also as a facilitator. Do we need to use our capital, or all of it this year? Not really. Can we instead fortify it, and shed some players? Also can we be paid to facilitate a big deal and jump in? A world were Grimes and Fournier gone out with a pick and other assets come back, including Cam Johnson? Do we take Joe Harris back in some other deal but again, we are compensated to do so?

No predictions here, just expanding the thoughts and spitballing on rumors.
As usual, fans will get pissed as we don’t bring the starphuck home but Leon/Perry/Aller been operating above our heads for some time now.

Just the fact we here in the conversation one has to look at last few years that got us the asset base.
WE obsess over Randle comments while others are in the twilight zone running scenario after another to figure shit out. They don’t always execute, but that’s another story.

martin wrote:Was Conley some sort of stout defender? I don't remember. Their small back court of Mitchell/Conley seemed to be OK?

Eric snow and Iverson?

martin wrote:Was Conley some sort of stout defender? I don't remember. Their small back court of Mitchell/Conley seemed to be OK?

Or maybe Rudy Gobert was just that good.Theyrr scheme seemed revolved around funneling players into Gobert. Conley and Ingles are smart defenders and it seemed to work through the regular season. Can't speak for Brunson, but I think most of the starters on the Knicks fall in the dumb category when it comes to defensive awareness.