Nalod wrote:jaydh wrote:I think you need to take a step back and not get caught up in paying out the largest package of prospects and picks in history for a guy who isn't even top 10 in the league. You're basically locking the team in as a low seeded playoff team. What else can you get for 6 1sts around the league?
I would not be suprised of other teams have approached knicks about some players but the facts are there are very few players of stature that become available at that age. Ainge is not stupid as he knows the longer and older DM gets towards the end of his contract the less leverage he has to either resign him if he wants to leave, or more important he’d have to pay him.
Maximum value is right now! Are there others? Not a bad idea to float that around but the reality is if another team wanted to that booty of picks and yoot they will step forward and present it to knicks. Who is that? Luka? D’aron Fox?
Its really not about Ainge is it? The guy can ask all he wants. Don’t mean he gets it. But what are allstars at age 26 and three years (plus a player option) worth? I don’t know.
Most trades you win by getting the best player. Thats DM. He makes 30mil, so we have to move salary. Most likely EF. He should ask for RJ but really he is getting a younger but not quite an Allstar player that he has to pay near DM money for. Makes no sense. He just keep DM.
Our protected picks are nice, but they are not great. But we have alot of them. We can’t use them all….
To the Nalodian thought process, its not what we pay, its what we keep.
That it has not been done so fast. That we are not jumping at the first bite, tells me Leon has a price in mind.
This is 100% of what I have been thinking about any trade for Mitchell - what is left? As long as we keep the players we want, and don't completely trade every first rounder, I feel like - it's a move you have to make.
We can talk about valuing Grimes and IQ- but with Mitchell, where exactly do they play? Especially if you keep Fournier- same if we keep Rose, trade Fournier as the money piece- where are the minutes?
Is Donovan the guy? No - but he sure is damn good! And he will help us win a lot of games - and as we saw with Boston, you just need solid defense and good shooting to make it to the finals!
KnickDanger wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Love when people put down top guys in NBA without looking at what they have. Kinda like making fun of the guy driving the Ferrari while driving a Civic. DM is not the best in the NBA. But last I checked, we do not have a chance at getting a top 5. People also found a way to put down KD when he was rumored to come here. Bottom line is that DM changes the narrative of NY Knicks instantly
As did Melo. He makes us a lot better and is a young talent. I look at him as I did Devin Booker. He may not be Lebron but can be an important part of a top team. Question is what will be left if we trade for him. Not if he is a top player. He has already proven that
And unless you think the current roster changes much without him, he is exactly what we need to ascend to a higher level?
Well beyond disagreeing with you on the merit of what Mitchell would do for the Knicks after trading what it would take to get him -- what I see is the guy in the Honda Civic with 200,000 miles running like a charm driving by the Ferrari broke down on the side of the road....
Lol. Think your example proves my point. The guy in the 200,000 Civic can only try to convince himself he is better off. Would hurt facing the truth which is that he drives a piece of shit and the guy on the side of the road will be back on the road in hours driving one of the best automobiles ever made.
37 wins is that beat up Civic. DM is one of the best players in the league.
ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
No, Melo in his prime was a better player
ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
6'3" in shoes. 6'1"barefoot.
BigDaddyG wrote:ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
6'3" in shoes. 6'1"barefoot.
Maybe the question was “is he Melo?”
Nalod wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
6'3" in shoes. 6'1"barefoot.
Maybe the question was “is he Melo?”
If he was a shorter Melo, and could play good defense, sign me up!
But if he’s 6’1” and a defensive liability, that’s where I lose some enthusiasm.
He’s obviously a great player, but I think the price will be too high, and result in a first round exit.
ToddTT wrote:Nalod wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
6'3" in shoes. 6'1"barefoot.
Maybe the question was “is he Melo?”
If he was a shorter Melo, and could play good defense, sign me up!
But if he’s 6’1” and a defensive liability, that’s where I lose some enthusiasm.
He’s obviously a great player, but I think the price will be too high, and result in a first round exit.
He is a 6'1 point guard with a 6'10 wingspan that has mostly played out of position in Utah as a SG. His time in Utah as PG has been more effective on both offense and defense. The issue is that it kind of makes the Brunson/Mitchell dynamic less optimal. Would really want to bring him in as PG.
https://theathletic.com/3199159/2022/03/...
EwingsGlass wrote:ToddTT wrote:Nalod wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
6'3" in shoes. 6'1"barefoot.
Maybe the question was “is he Melo?”
If he was a shorter Melo, and could play good defense, sign me up!
But if he’s 6’1” and a defensive liability, that’s where I lose some enthusiasm.
He’s obviously a great player, but I think the price will be too high, and result in a first round exit.
He is a 6'1 point guard with a 6'10 wingspan that has mostly played out of position in Utah as a SG. His time in Utah as PG has been more effective on both offense and defense. The issue is that it kind of makes the Brunson/Mitchell dynamic less optimal. Would really want to bring him in as PG.
https://theathletic.com/3199159/2022/03/...
Brunson played with Luka - granted Luka is bigger, he's also slower.
Do not think the issues will be having Brunson and Mitchell on the court at the same time.
franco12 wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:ToddTT wrote:Nalod wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
6'3" in shoes. 6'1"barefoot.
Maybe the question was “is he Melo?”
If he was a shorter Melo, and could play good defense, sign me up!
But if he’s 6’1” and a defensive liability, that’s where I lose some enthusiasm.
He’s obviously a great player, but I think the price will be too high, and result in a first round exit.
He is a 6'1 point guard with a 6'10 wingspan that has mostly played out of position in Utah as a SG. His time in Utah as PG has been more effective on both offense and defense. The issue is that it kind of makes the Brunson/Mitchell dynamic less optimal. Would really want to bring him in as PG.
https://theathletic.com/3199159/2022/03/...
Brunson played with Luka - granted Luka is bigger, he's also slower.
Do not think the issues will be having Brunson and Mitchell on the court at the same time.
My problem is that I would want Mitchell to be Luka. Brunson is here cause he wants to be Luka. We can't all be Luka. In a vacuum, recent contract signing aside -- if you are forced to choose between Mitchell and Brunson to run your offense, I think you have to choose Mitchell. Unless your son is Brunson's agent. Then you choose Brunson. Kind of like that choice between Haliburton and Toppin. You have a PF under contract and need a 3&D PG, so in all instances you choose the 3&D PG, unless your son is Toppin's agent. Then you choose Toppin. But I digress.
ToddTT wrote:Nalod wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
6'3" in shoes. 6'1"barefoot.
Maybe the question was “is he Melo?”
If he was a shorter Melo, and could play good defense, sign me up!
But if he’s 6’1” and a defensive liability, that’s where I lose some enthusiasm.
He’s obviously a great player, but I think the price will be too high, and result in a first round exit.
In terms of Melo vs Mitchell, Melo in his prime is a high volume, low efficiency scorer in the model of a Kobe - an iso player that drew multiple double teams and still managed to score with volume. From the older school "money" stat approach, he is among the best of his generation. A top 10 player in his prime. Today's game is more about eFG on offense. You won't find a lot of lead offensive players on teams without an eFG well over 50. Its tends to be otherwise limited to Put-Back Centers like Mitchell Robinson and 3pt specialists like Fournier.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanc...
If there is a reason that I would hit restart with Mitchell at the lead of the team, its the attached link. This is the league sorted by eFG for players taking more than 20 shots per game and having played more than 40 games. These are high volume, high efficiency players. The cream of the crop. I don't want to overpay for him, but holy cow, you can't disrespect the man's talent.
Melo changed his game to today's standard and is now playing eFG ball. A little older, a little wiser. Comparing Mitchell to Melo isn't really a thing any more because we all now know the value of 3pt shooting. It has changed the way the game is played. Mitchell is playing a different game than Melo. Dwyane Wade is a better comp for Mitchell in terms of position and volume and Mitchell is the better statistical player due to his 3pt shot.
Mitchell is a top 10 offensive player in today's NBA. The only question for me is price.
Why can't the Knicks trade for Mitchell and then add another big piece in 1-2 years?
We don't have any bad contracts. Randle isn't Noah.
EwingsGlass wrote:ToddTT wrote:Nalod wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
6'3" in shoes. 6'1"barefoot.
Maybe the question was “is he Melo?”
If he was a shorter Melo, and could play good defense, sign me up!
But if he’s 6’1” and a defensive liability, that’s where I lose some enthusiasm.
He’s obviously a great player, but I think the price will be too high, and result in a first round exit.
In terms of Melo vs Mitchell, Melo in his prime is a high volume, low efficiency scorer in the model of a Kobe - an iso player that drew multiple double teams and still managed to score with volume. From the older school "money" stat approach, he is among the best of his generation. A top 10 player in his prime. Today's game is more about eFG on offense. You won't find a lot of lead offensive players on teams without an eFG well over 50. Its tends to be otherwise limited to Put-Back Centers like Mitchell Robinson and 3pt specialists like Fournier.
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanc...
If there is a reason that I would hit restart with Mitchell at the lead of the team, its the attached link. This is the league sorted by eFG for players taking more than 20 shots per game and having played more than 40 games. These are high volume, high efficiency players. The cream of the crop. I don't want to overpay for him, but holy cow, you can't disrespect the man's talent.
Melo changed his game to today's standard and is now playing eFG ball. A little older, a little wiser. Comparing Mitchell to Melo isn't really a thing any more because we all now know the value of 3pt shooting. It has changed the way the game is played. Mitchell is playing a different game than Melo. Dwyane Wade is a better comp for Mitchell in terms of position and volume and Mitchell is the better statistical player due to his 3pt shot.
Mitchell is a top 10 offensive player in today's NBA. The only question for me is price.
And I want to say - based on that stat you have sorted - yes, the answer to the thread question is yes, Mitchell is the guy.
I will continue to say if Ainge had gone to the Knicks before they brought on Brunson this trade would have already happened with a combination of the vets sent out for Brunson to them, picks, and probably the youth they wanted.
Donovan
RJ
Fournier
Randle
Mitchell/Sims
Rose
And the collection of picks they got for 11… honestly they would have probably figured out a way for the Jazz to get pick #11.
The they could figure it out probably using the cap space they used on IHart to bolster the wings with a Deion Wright, or a Donte Divencenzo. I know it’s easy to say “Thibs will figure it out. However, Brunson and Donovan are not a good fit both money and roster wise if the plan is to win either short or long term.
Donovan
RJ
Fournier
Randle
Mitchell
Rose
Donte D
Sims
Melo (as the popular PF fan theory goes)
Is making noise in the East both short and potentially long term.
Right now Donovan isn’t the guy this roster should pay a kings ransom for. He doesn’t fit, and they already built a team around the acquisition of Brunson. They should fall back and see what other option pop up. They have a lot of assets that by Ainges reaction are viable. No reason to spend it all because of someone that no longer fits the plan becomes available.
BigDaddyG wrote:ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
6'3" in shoes. 6'1"barefoot.
What kind of shoes? High heels?
Mitchell is 6’1. That’s part of why the hysteria over Kennedy Chandler being 6’0 was overblown nonsense
doomed wrote:Why can't the Knicks trade for Mitchell and then add another big piece in 1-2 years?We don't have any bad contracts. Randle isn't Noah.
The problem is Ainge doesn’t negotiate in good faith. He doesn’t do trades unless it’s highway robbery for him and he just pulled off a heist with Gobert
Plus there’s other teams besides the Knicks that can offer close to what Ainge is asking for. Mitchell is under a long term deal and doesn’t have a no trade clause. Yes he wants to come here but ultimately it’s not his choice
Nets have 3 spoiled divas they can offer one or more of them for Mitchell. Celtics for whatever strange reason want to move on from Jaylon Brown
Philc1 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
6'3" in shoes. 6'1"barefoot.
What kind of shoes? High heels?
Mitchell is 6’1. That’s part of why the hysteria over Kennedy Chandler being 6’0 was overblown nonsense
Kennedy has 6’5 wingspan to DM 6’10.
KM is an allstar. Kennedy was teh 38th player taken who has yet to play a minute in the NBA. No hysteria except in your mind.
Philc1 wrote:doomed wrote:Why can't the Knicks trade for Mitchell and then add another big piece in 1-2 years?We don't have any bad contracts. Randle isn't Noah.
The problem is Ainge doesn’t negotiate in good faith. He doesn’t do trades unless it’s highway robbery for him and he just pulled off a heist with Gobert
Plus there’s other teams besides the Knicks that can offer close to what Ainge is asking for. Mitchell is under a long term deal and doesn’t have a no trade clause. Yes he wants to come here but ultimately it’s not his choice
Nets have 3 spoiled divas they can offer one or more of them for Mitchell. Celtics for whatever strange reason want to move on from Jaylon Brown
Your typical generalizations lack depth. You make it as if ainge puts a gun to someones head and forces things. No, its consensual. Also not every deal has been one sided or in bad faith.
Celtics are not moving away from Brown. Unless he reaches all NBA status it makes little sense for him to extend early which makes him a small flight risk. When a guy like Durant comes available you do think it thru and try. That does not mean they are activly shopping him like Utah is with DM. That he took a season off with a torn heal and was given 35mil to do so speaks volumes about what nets thought of him. ANd he did deliver by coming back big. Few at that age are able to do so and with that level. YOu might not like Durant, or the nets but no need to create false narrative like a 12 year old and make stupid shit up.
Its a business and in age of player empowerment players can leave teams for more money and choose to work in different places. At the same time, contracts are upheld but teams can trade them. Don’t superimpose your feelings as if you know what Brown is thinking. Is he pissed? Maybe. Is it part of the business? Yep. He knows it and he too will do whats best for him.
He could also team his ACL before extending and screw his value.
If he loves being a celtic he could ask for the extension at the earliest time and perhaps that will be enough money to fulfil his goals. Do we know his goals. No we don’t. Does he want to play in Cali like half the league does? I don’t know.
Philc1 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:ToddTT wrote:SergioNYK wrote:Reading and watching a ton of Spider since this rumor started, he is NOT the guy. He can be a great 'Robin' to the guy but he cannot play the lead role. At least not now. I also question his effort and commitment defensively. He's very 'Melo' in that sense and isn't consistent. Actually, Melo level is the perfect comparison! Spider is a 6'3" Melo.
Is he though?
6'3" in shoes. 6'1"barefoot.
What kind of shoes? High heels?
Mitchell is 6’1. That’s part of why the hysteria over Kennedy Chandler being 6’0 was overblown nonsense
Chandler is 6'0" in shoes, is 30 pounds lighter than Mitchell and has a shorter wingspan. I thought Chandler was solid, but definitely not a lottery pick.
My concern with a Brunson/Mitchell backcourt is it working out like it did for Houston with CP3/Harden. Not being a good fit together, despite the talent. Sometimes it comes down to chemistry.
GustavBahler wrote:My concern with a Brunson/Mitchell backcourt is it working out like it did for Houston with CP3/Harden. Not being a good fit together, despite the talent. Sometimes it comes down to chemistry.
My understanding of the CP3/Harden pairing was that Harden was a-hole at the time. He refused to cut when CP3 had the ball and hurt the offense. Mitchell does gets tunnel vision from time to time, but he and Brunson have showed the ability to play off ball. My biggest concern is on the defensive end.
