Knicks · Instead of Donovan, target Wiggins next summer (page 2)

wargames wrote:I like the idea of chasing a wing like Wiggins, I also actually think he still has 2nd to 1st option upside. I just don’t know if he could reach that in a Thibs offense as a primary or secondary target for the opposing defense. Also like Clean said he will want to get paid.

The main plus for chasing Wiggins is if the Warriors decide to not be greedy (aka the anti Ainge)because of cap reasons and their own cap friendly youth being able to contribute significantly. If the Knicks can get Wiggins for Fournier, Rose, and say a few firsts. Then paying him with Bird rights later makes him and his pay increase a lot easier to swallow because they can keep their kids and should still have more draft picks.

There are a few more wings that could be interesting if their team decides to trade them for a fair price.

I don't think Warriors have any interest in trading Wiggins until they lose a playoff series. Once they do, money starts to come into play.

gradyandrew wrote:

wargames wrote:I like the idea of chasing a wing like Wiggins, I also actually think he still has 2nd to 1st option upside. I just don’t know if he could reach that in a Thibs offense as a primary or secondary target for the opposing defense. Also like Clean said he will want to get paid.

The main plus for chasing Wiggins is if the Warriors decide to not be greedy (aka the anti Ainge)because of cap reasons and their own cap friendly youth being able to contribute significantly. If the Knicks can get Wiggins for Fournier, Rose, and say a few firsts. Then paying him with Bird rights later makes him and his pay increase a lot easier to swallow because they can keep their kids and should still have more draft picks.

There are a few more wings that could be interesting if their team decides to trade them for a fair price.

I don't think Warriors have any interest in trading Wiggins until they lose a playoff series. Once they do, money starts to come into play.

That’s fair. Also, that would be really the best scenario to get him. Basically a cap cutting trade with picks going back.

Flipside there are a few other wings who might end up on the trade market for the same reason and more or less cost the same price. That’s the benefit of the picks the Knicks have. Teams looking to make trade will go to them.

Maybe I’d consider if an opportunity arose for like 15-16 mill but that will never happen

Not enough impact, heart or brains to lead a team

gradyandrew wrote:

wargames wrote:I like the idea of chasing a wing like Wiggins, I also actually think he still has 2nd to 1st option upside. I just don’t know if he could reach that in a Thibs offense as a primary or secondary target for the opposing defense. Also like Clean said he will want to get paid.

The main plus for chasing Wiggins is if the Warriors decide to not be greedy (aka the anti Ainge)because of cap reasons and their own cap friendly youth being able to contribute significantly. If the Knicks can get Wiggins for Fournier, Rose, and say a few firsts. Then paying him with Bird rights later makes him and his pay increase a lot easier to swallow because they can keep their kids and should still have more draft picks.

There are a few more wings that could be interesting if their team decides to trade them for a fair price.

I don't think Warriors have any interest in trading Wiggins until they lose a playoff series. Once they do, money starts to come into play.

How do you make that statement without having a full understanding of what the GSW finances are and what the full impact of the extra luxury $ the Wiggins and Pool contracts will be?

Are you familiar with the repeater tax implications and how it is built? I am not but I know it is punitive and escalates.

If Wiggins contract is a baseline $35M for year 2023 but will literally cost GS something in the lines of $55M where his replacement of Kuminga will be making $6M, you don't think the owners are going to ask themselves if Wiggins is worth costing the bottom like $55M or more a year for a player that may have 80-90% of productivity PLUS the extra draft picks and GINORMOUS TPE that they would recieve?

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Nalod wrote:Martin, clarify if paying Wiggins 40mil is in yoru wheelhouse?
Im thinking he a 25mil per year player. He in Randle type money. Top 50 at best.
Randle was all NBA for a year. At least there was that. Wiggins was an allstar this year. but as discussed, he playing with HOF's!!

The market will determine Wiggins contract.

Tier 1 players who are on their second contract are getting $50M to start.

Tier 2 players are getting in the $40s.

Zach Lavine just got $37M starting contract.

I'd guess that after next season, Wiggins will get a starting somewhere between $35 and $40M; it'll depend on how well he plays this year.

How much for a starting quality SF who shoots just under 40% from 3pt on decent volume, averages under 20ppg, defends and not injury prone? He will probably be coming off of 2 straight all star appearances.

Recall that you are getting him closer to the free category than the 5 first round picks category. He will be 28 starting on a 4 or 5 year deal.

It's not about the salary and performance of the individual player so much as getting him without decimating your stock of picks and young players.

Trend of player contracts: https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...

IF if if you can entice GS with a couple of picks and do a S&T, you have: Brunson, RJ, Wiggins, ? Mitch; IQ, Rokas, Grimes, Obi, Hart/Sims; all the rest of the picks. You will be over the salary cap. You will be in a prime position to then trade for a tier 1 or 2 player.

It's less about Wiggins and more about fit and upgrading in the least costly way.

Donovan Mitchell will get you an odd fit and cost you 5 picks, 1 or 2 young players. And then what? Where do you go from there?

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Martin, clarify if paying Wiggins 40mil is in yoru wheelhouse?
Im thinking he a 25mil per year player. He in Randle type money. Top 50 at best.
Randle was all NBA for a year. At least there was that. Wiggins was an allstar this year. but as discussed, he playing with HOF's!!

The market will determine Wiggins contract.

Tier 1 players who are on their second contract are getting $50M to start.

Tier 2 players are getting in the $40s.

Zach Lavine just got $37M starting contract.

I'd guess that after next season, Wiggins will get a starting somewhere between $35 and $40M; it'll depend on how well he plays this year.

How much for a starting quality SF who shoots just under 40% from 3pt on decent volume, averages under 20ppg, defends and not injury prone? He will probably be coming off of 2 straight all star appearances.

Recall that you are getting him closer to the free category than the 5 first round picks category. He will be 28 starting on a 4 or 5 year deal.

It's not about the salary and performance of the individual player so much as getting him without decimating your stock of picks and young players.

Trend of player contracts: https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...

IF if if you can entice GS with a couple of picks and do a S&T, you have: Brunson, RJ, Wiggins, ? Mitch; IQ, Rokas, Grimes, Obi, Hart/Sims; all the rest of the picks. You will be over the salary cap. You will be in a prime position to then trade for a tier 1 or 2 player.

It's less about Wiggins and more about fit and upgrading in the least costly way.

Donovan Mitchell will get you an odd fit and cost you 5 picks, 1 or 2 young players. And then what? Where do you go from there?

To your point I don’t reject Wiggins and don’t see him as being paid 40mil. That implies he is your first or second best player. I see him as a very very good complimentary piece. Im not worried about his acquisition price, but his salary.

And we’ll have tax concerns one day. But the cap will grow for all.

He is a PER 15 player. He has had some years slightly below average. He has some years slightly above average. He would seem to represent a step back.

But the fact that changed my mind... did you know, Wiggins has scored more points in the NBA than Kawhi Leonard? That's a fact. Blew my mind

Nalod wrote:Where do you go from there? Good point. RJ Barrett is our elite wing. Tier 2 ceiling.
We don’t spend all the picks do we?
Rehab Randle, if OBI stays, trade Jules for picks, yoot?
Rokas as trade chip or role player?

To your point I don’t reject Wiggins and don’t see him as being paid 40mil. That implies he is your first or second best player. I see him as a very very good complimentary piece. Im not worried about his acquisition price, but his salary.

And we’ll have tax concerns one day. But the cap will grow for all.

RJ has yet to show he is even close to being an All star no less elite wing. He first has to show he can make difficult layups at a clip that is even near league average for a good player. Or shoot the ball at an average rate.

[RJ rant over]

Moving on...

In 2-3 years the cap may be just south of $180M. Today's $30M salary slot would be ~25% of the cap. $40M in 3 years will be < 25% of the cap.

Not properly taking into account what the salary cap will be very soon is not taking in all of the information and using it to your advantage.

I wouldn't wildly overpay for a player who is not a focal, build-around type individual. I guess perception is completely different for some.

With RJ at the 2, and Wiggins at the 3. That would be a nice combo. You lose me when its a choice between the two. RJ has made a great case for a new deal IMO.

martin wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

wargames wrote:I like the idea of chasing a wing like Wiggins, I also actually think he still has 2nd to 1st option upside. I just don’t know if he could reach that in a Thibs offense as a primary or secondary target for the opposing defense. Also like Clean said he will want to get paid.

The main plus for chasing Wiggins is if the Warriors decide to not be greedy (aka the anti Ainge)because of cap reasons and their own cap friendly youth being able to contribute significantly. If the Knicks can get Wiggins for Fournier, Rose, and say a few firsts. Then paying him with Bird rights later makes him and his pay increase a lot easier to swallow because they can keep their kids and should still have more draft picks.

There are a few more wings that could be interesting if their team decides to trade them for a fair price.

I don't think Warriors have any interest in trading Wiggins until they lose a playoff series. Once they do, money starts to come into play.

How do you make that statement without having a full understanding of what the GSW finances are and what the full impact of the extra luxury $ the Wiggins and Pool contracts will be?

Are you familiar with the repeater tax implications and how it is built? I am not but I know it is punitive and escalates.

If Wiggins contract is a baseline $35M for year 2023 but will literally cost GS something in the lines of $55M where his replacement of Kuminga will be making $6M, you don't think the owners are going to ask themselves if Wiggins is worth costing the bottom like $55M or more a year for a player that may have 80-90% of productivity PLUS the extra draft picks and GINORMOUS TPE that they would recieve?

I hear you on that, and that is what makes me think he might be offered for expiring and a reasonable haul of draft picks. Potentially a S&T too, but even then it would need to be a low price. It’s been mentioned but Dillon Brooks and OG Anunoby fall into this category. Of the three I would go for OG just because while injury prone he is younger than Wiggins, and a better player than Brooks who just comes off as an enforcer who is also a dirty player.

GustavBahler wrote:Not if its a choice between RJ and Wiggins. RJ is younger, one of the most durable players in the league right now. One of the top players in mpg. He's a leader, and RJ never stops working at getting better. Id rather roll the dice with Barrett.

With RJ at the 2, and Wiggins at the 3. That would be a nice combo. You lose me when its a choice between the two. RJ has made a great case for a new deal IMO.

No one said it was so why even bring it up as a possibility?

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not if its a choice between RJ and Wiggins. RJ is younger, one of the most durable players in the league right now. One of the top players in mpg. He's a leader, and RJ never stops working at getting better. Id rather roll the dice with Barrett.

With RJ at the 2, and Wiggins at the 3. That would be a nice combo. You lose me when its a choice between the two. RJ has made a great case for a new deal IMO.

No one said it was so why even bring it up as a possibility?

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not if its a choice between RJ and Wiggins. RJ is younger, one of the most durable players in the league right now. One of the top players in mpg. He's a leader, and RJ never stops working at getting better. Id rather roll the dice with Barrett.

With RJ at the 2, and Wiggins at the 3. That would be a nice combo. You lose me when its a choice between the two. RJ has made a great case for a new deal IMO.

No one said it was so why even bring it up as a possibility?

The real question with grabbing a Wing like Wiggins or OG is would that allow RJ to operate as a sixth man? Specifically if they make the move this season to make Grimes a starter.

Brunson/IQ
Grimes/RJ
Traded SF/Cam
Randle/Obi
Mitch/IHart/Sims

Is a really good 10 man roster. However….

IQ
RJ
Cam
Obi
IHart

Potentially is the best bench in the league this year.

GustavBahler wrote:Sorry Martin. Not used to an RJ thread of yours that doesnt involve trading him. ;)

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not if its a choice between RJ and Wiggins. RJ is younger, one of the most durable players in the league right now. One of the top players in mpg. He's a leader, and RJ never stops working at getting better. Id rather roll the dice with Barrett.

With RJ at the 2, and Wiggins at the 3. That would be a nice combo. You lose me when its a choice between the two. RJ has made a great case for a new deal IMO.

No one said it was so why even bring it up as a possibility?

Maybe take time to read what I posted?

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Where do you go from there? Good point. RJ Barrett is our elite wing. Tier 2 ceiling.
We don’t spend all the picks do we?
Rehab Randle, if OBI stays, trade Jules for picks, yoot?
Rokas as trade chip or role player?

To your point I don’t reject Wiggins and don’t see him as being paid 40mil. That implies he is your first or second best player. I see him as a very very good complimentary piece. Im not worried about his acquisition price, but his salary.

And we’ll have tax concerns one day. But the cap will grow for all.

RJ has yet to show he is even close to being an All star no less elite wing. He first has to show he can make difficult layups at a clip that is even near league average for a good player. Or shoot the ball at an average rate.

[RJ rant over]

Moving on...

In 2-3 years the cap may be just south of $180M. Today's $30M salary slot would be ~25% of the cap. $40M in 3 years will be < 25% of the cap.

Not properly taking into account what the salary cap will be very soon is not taking in all of the information and using it to your advantage.

I wouldn't wildly overpay for a player who is not a focal, build-around type individual. I guess perception is completely different for some.

RJ had a half a season to see the future. He was 21. Of course I am on the RJ bandwagon big time! its my hope.
No, he is not an allstar but I indicated he is tier 2 as his ceiling. Not that he gets there. ceiling as his tippy top.
And I see him as a 3.
As for Wiggins salary thats the wild card. Kuminga is obvious the next man up there and wiggins could be dealt or let walk if he wants to test the waters. Value is predicated that he sign an extension or not.

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not if its a choice between RJ and Wiggins. RJ is younger, one of the most durable players in the league right now. One of the top players in mpg. He's a leader, and RJ never stops working at getting better. Id rather roll the dice with Barrett.

With RJ at the 2, and Wiggins at the 3. That would be a nice combo. You lose me when its a choice between the two. RJ has made a great case for a new deal IMO.

No one said it was so why even bring it up as a possibility?

The real question with grabbing a Wing like Wiggins or OG is would that allow RJ to operate as a sixth man? Specifically if they make the move this season to make Grimes a starter.

Brunson/IQ
Grimes/RJ
Traded SF/Cam
Randle/Obi
Mitch/IHart/Sims

Is a really good 10 man roster. However….

IQ
RJ
Cam
Obi
IHart

Potentially is the best bench in the league this year.

martin wrote:

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Is the plan still that the NBA will expand to two more franchises at 3 billion each and each team will get 200MM - I understood that GSW was going to rely on that income to offset their expense without breaking up their championship dynasty.

BigDaddyG wrote:

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not if its a choice between RJ and Wiggins. RJ is younger, one of the most durable players in the league right now. One of the top players in mpg. He's a leader, and RJ never stops working at getting better. Id rather roll the dice with Barrett.

With RJ at the 2, and Wiggins at the 3. That would be a nice combo. You lose me when its a choice between the two. RJ has made a great case for a new deal IMO.

No one said it was so why even bring it up as a possibility?

The real question with grabbing a Wing like Wiggins or OG is would that allow RJ to operate as a sixth man? Specifically if they make the move this season to make Grimes a starter.

Brunson/IQ
Grimes/RJ
Traded SF/Cam
Randle/Obi
Mitch/IHart/Sims

Is a really good 10 man roster. However….

IQ
RJ
Cam
Obi
IHart

Potentially is the best bench in the league this year.

Naw, Grimes is coming off the bench in that scenario. Also, if a trade is made for a legit starting wing, I'd be more open to trading Grimes in a DMitch package.

In that scenario Grimes 3 pt shooting becomes essential to the starting line up and RJ becomes a 6MOY candidate. He would still see significant minutes but would have an opportunity to have the ball in his hand more leading he second unit.

wargames wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not if its a choice between RJ and Wiggins. RJ is younger, one of the most durable players in the league right now. One of the top players in mpg. He's a leader, and RJ never stops working at getting better. Id rather roll the dice with Barrett.

With RJ at the 2, and Wiggins at the 3. That would be a nice combo. You lose me when its a choice between the two. RJ has made a great case for a new deal IMO.

No one said it was so why even bring it up as a possibility?

The real question with grabbing a Wing like Wiggins or OG is would that allow RJ to operate as a sixth man? Specifically if they make the move this season to make Grimes a starter.

Brunson/IQ
Grimes/RJ
Traded SF/Cam
Randle/Obi
Mitch/IHart/Sims

Is a really good 10 man roster. However….

IQ
RJ
Cam
Obi
IHart

Potentially is the best bench in the league this year.

Naw, Grimes is coming off the bench in that scenario. Also, if a trade is made for a legit starting wing, I'd be more open to trading Grimes in a DMitch package.

In that scenario Grimes 3 pt shooting becomes essential to the starting line up and RJ becomes a 6MOY candidate. He would still see significant minutes but would have an opportunity to have the ball in his hand more leading he second unit.

Is this before or after RJ is extended? The Knicks need to know what they have. If they've already decided to pay RJ $25M+ plus a year, then there's no way he's coming off the bench.

BigDaddyG wrote:

wargames wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not if its a choice between RJ and Wiggins. RJ is younger, one of the most durable players in the league right now. One of the top players in mpg. He's a leader, and RJ never stops working at getting better. Id rather roll the dice with Barrett.

With RJ at the 2, and Wiggins at the 3. That would be a nice combo. You lose me when its a choice between the two. RJ has made a great case for a new deal IMO.

No one said it was so why even bring it up as a possibility?

The real question with grabbing a Wing like Wiggins or OG is would that allow RJ to operate as a sixth man? Specifically if they make the move this season to make Grimes a starter.

Brunson/IQ
Grimes/RJ
Traded SF/Cam
Randle/Obi
Mitch/IHart/Sims

Is a really good 10 man roster. However….

IQ
RJ
Cam
Obi
IHart

Potentially is the best bench in the league this year.

Naw, Grimes is coming off the bench in that scenario. Also, if a trade is made for a legit starting wing, I'd be more open to trading Grimes in a DMitch package.

In that scenario Grimes 3 pt shooting becomes essential to the starting line up and RJ becomes a 6MOY candidate. He would still see significant minutes but would have an opportunity to have the ball in his hand more leading he second unit.

Is this before or after RJ is extended? The Knicks need to know what they have. If they've already decided to pay RJ $25M+ plus a year, then there's no way he's coming off the bench.

Just like Fournier is getting paid 18 and they are already talking about making him a 6th man?