Knicks · Why the knicks will struggle to make play in...... (page 2)
martin wrote:All I know is I’m rooting for Wizards to do well so that their top-16 protected 2023 draft pick transfers
martin dusting off his Porzingis jersey for the season.
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How much did we overperform in 2021 vs. how much did we underperform in 2022? Don't think last year is an accurate gage for this team.
I think there will be some dice rolling on the Nets, Hawks, Raptors, and Heat. With some consistent PG play and a Randle in a better headspace, I think we can compete with this group. They've gone question marks around them too (if BKN doesn't get rolling from the get go, they'll be a circus again).
Not fully sold on Boston either. I tend to believe they were a good team that got hot in the 2nd half of the season. I don't look at them as a sure thing title contender. If Brogdon stays healthy they'll be alright. Love Smart, but I don't think he can hold down PG all year. Still expect them to be better than us at any rate.
All that said, it is nice to see the East getting stronger. Tougher road for us, but it was just sad watching 7 & 8 seeds in the playoffs with sub .500 records every year.
fishmike wrote:I think the opposite.Not only is the team better but the way its built is going to be MUCH easier to coach this year. There arent any big rotation questions. Maybe the biggest is if Brunson/Fournier struggle defensively as starters how long before we see Grimes or Cam?
Knicks are not gonna struggle to make the play in. They are going to be a good (if not top 5) defensive team that's deep on both sides of the ball. Thibs may not be popular here which fine because the Knick fan base is dumb as phuck. The guy coaches wins and if anything the Knicks are going to overachieve like they did 2 years ago. Will likely be a first round exit as I just dont think we are there yet but that will be fun as we go from "struggle to make play in" to "does Thibs coach too hard in the regular season?" when we lose to the Celtics in the first round 4/5 series
Thibs didnt play Cam because Grimes was fantastic and when Cam did play he couldnt hit a shot (see McBride as well) but fans prefer to make up stuff like "tight rotation" which is just pure jive. He's gonna play his starters. He's gonna play Rose/IQ/Grimes/Obi/Hart and there's going to be heavy competition for minutes and that's a good thing. Tight my ass. Wait....
I think the point Nolads is making is not about the Knicks, but the teams in the east are better which means more competition than last year, which is a fare point (on paper).
I don’t see Thibs playing 11 guys, regardless what we define as tight. In fact I’m not sure there are a lot of coaches that goes 11 deep successfully unless Golden St during the regular season is an example, but 10 deep seems to be Thibs style since he’s been here. Starting 5 and 5 off the bench. Tighter rotations for most coaches is during the playoffs. This is universal across most nba coaches.
I agree the Knicks should be better than last year, but if everybody is better than we will finish close to the same play in level unless there’s unforeseen changes / injuries.
Star or Development. Which direction are we going now that the DM trade drama is over. That directional change or maintaining the same direction as last year, is the key to making playin or not. Nobody knows since Rose doesn’t talk much about plan B (post DM) strategy since DM is no longer an option.
blkexec wrote:He's going to play 10 because even if he wants to only play 8 there's always 2 guys he's gotta get into games.fishmike wrote:I think the opposite.Not only is the team better but the way its built is going to be MUCH easier to coach this year. There arent any big rotation questions. Maybe the biggest is if Brunson/Fournier struggle defensively as starters how long before we see Grimes or Cam?
Knicks are not gonna struggle to make the play in. They are going to be a good (if not top 5) defensive team that's deep on both sides of the ball. Thibs may not be popular here which fine because the Knick fan base is dumb as phuck. The guy coaches wins and if anything the Knicks are going to overachieve like they did 2 years ago. Will likely be a first round exit as I just dont think we are there yet but that will be fun as we go from "struggle to make play in" to "does Thibs coach too hard in the regular season?" when we lose to the Celtics in the first round 4/5 series
Thibs didnt play Cam because Grimes was fantastic and when Cam did play he couldnt hit a shot (see McBride as well) but fans prefer to make up stuff like "tight rotation" which is just pure jive. He's gonna play his starters. He's gonna play Rose/IQ/Grimes/Obi/Hart and there's going to be heavy competition for minutes and that's a good thing. Tight my ass. Wait....
I think the point Nolads is making is not about the Knicks, but the teams in the east are better which means more competition than last year, which is a fare point (on paper).
I don’t see Thibs playing 11 guys, regardless what we define as tight. In fact I’m not sure there are a lot of coaches that goes 11 deep successfully unless Golden St during the regular season is an example, but 10 deep seems to be Thibs style since he’s been here. Starting 5 and 5 off the bench. Tighter rotations for most coaches is during the playoffs. This is universal across most nba coaches.
I agree the Knicks should be better than last year, but if everybody is better than we will finish close to the same play in level unless there’s unforeseen changes / injuries.
We know he doesnt like going small at center, so he's playing 2.
We know he loves Rose/Quickly off the bench. We know he loves Obi and Grimes. There's 10 and that doesnt include Cam. Look at the ages of the guys Thibs is gonna "win now" with. There is no change in direction. Its a young team getting younger and they are focused on improving from within. This is evident by everything from the drafts, rosters, coaches, rotations... when the Kemba thing failed they worked on getting better. Lets see how those guys look this year
There is this mental hump that many seem to have with Thibs. You don't even have to like him or his style but stating obvious things are are literally incorrect... I don't know what that is. Let me show you how:
blkexec wrote:But my point still stands. When you have a deep team and a coach that appears to play or (want to play) a shorter rotation (8-9 guys), and simply doesn't adjust OR takes too long to adjust, thats not a good match for this roster thats 11 deep (if you include Cam). Yes Thibs ran a 9-10 man rotation last year, but that was forced (in my opinion). That did not appear to be the norm (student of Van Gundy and Riley so I'm not surprised).
For the last 2 years, give or take, Thibs has played just about 10 guys with 2 full rotations. In his stints with Chicago and Minny, he played 9-10 guys consistently. Literally, WTF do you mean by "a coach that appears to play or want to play"? That's just you projecting something that does not meet reality.
Thibs literally appears to want to play 10 guys, not the opposite.
Well he developed them enough to complain they good enough to compete for minutes!
RJ broke the Charlie Ward curse. How many coaches didn't?
Mitch too!
Love Grimes? OK, so does Thibs.
Is he perfect? Hell no. We all kind yoot and picks now. Thing is we could have leveraged all of it and had a better team?
Maybe, maybe middling better. Kind of like the Bulls are.
I don't know if any of this will work, but its different now.
Nalod wrote:.............and he don't develop yoot.Well he developed them enough to complain they good enough to compete for minutes!
RJ broke the Charlie Ward curse. How many coaches didn't?
Mitch too!
Love Grimes? OK, so does Thibs.
Is he perfect? Hell no. We all kind yoot and picks now. Thing is we could have leveraged all of it and had a better team?
Maybe, maybe middling better. Kind of like the Bulls are.
I don't know if any of this will work, but its different now.
Under Thibs watch, IQ, Obi, Grimes, RJ, MR have ALL improved consistently. Not to mention Sims had some immediate impact. But yeah, he does not develop youth.
Thibs did not have a true PG for most of the year. Yet fans want to act like that is no big deal. If you played the sport or have watched a good amount of basketball, you should know how important that is. Fans getting on players and coaches for not performing as they did in 2021 shows little knowledge of that. Anyone claiming Rose should just start "ALL YOOTS" shows little knowledge of reality and how organizations make decisions. Or that they are not aware of the actual circumstances that caused last years regression. And it was not because they did not start McBribe or Obi.
HofstraBBall wrote:Nalod wrote:.............and he don't develop yoot.Well he developed them enough to complain they good enough to compete for minutes!
RJ broke the Charlie Ward curse. How many coaches didn't?
Mitch too!
Love Grimes? OK, so does Thibs.
Is he perfect? Hell no. We all kind yoot and picks now. Thing is we could have leveraged all of it and had a better team?
Maybe, maybe middling better. Kind of like the Bulls are.
I don't know if any of this will work, but its different now.Under Thibs watch, IQ, Obi, Grimes, RJ, MR have ALL improved consistently. Not to mention Sims had some immediate impact. But yeah, he does not develop youth.
Thibs did not have a true PG for most of the year. Yet fans want to act like that is no big deal. If you played the sport or have watched a good amount of basketball, you should know how important that is. Fans getting on players and coaches for not performing as they did in 2021 shows little knowledge of that. Anyone claiming Rose should just start "ALL YOOTS" shows little knowledge of reality and how organizations make decisions. Or that they are not aware of the actual circumstances that caused last years regression. And it was not because they did not start McBribe or Obi.
Shit guys, there's some really good content getting written on UK.fanpage. Martin, you might want to think about curating an annual book edition. Two months into the offseason when all the NBA sites are silent and every morning when I get up there's a bunch of good stuff to read.
Hofstra- the last paragraph here is golden.
gradyandrew wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Nalod wrote:.............and he don't develop yoot.Well he developed them enough to complain they good enough to compete for minutes!
RJ broke the Charlie Ward curse. How many coaches didn't?
Mitch too!
Love Grimes? OK, so does Thibs.
Is he perfect? Hell no. We all kind yoot and picks now. Thing is we could have leveraged all of it and had a better team?
Maybe, maybe middling better. Kind of like the Bulls are.
I don't know if any of this will work, but its different now.Under Thibs watch, IQ, Obi, Grimes, RJ, MR have ALL improved consistently. Not to mention Sims had some immediate impact. But yeah, he does not develop youth.
Thibs did not have a true PG for most of the year. Yet fans want to act like that is no big deal. If you played the sport or have watched a good amount of basketball, you should know how important that is. Fans getting on players and coaches for not performing as they did in 2021 shows little knowledge of that. Anyone claiming Rose should just start "ALL YOOTS" shows little knowledge of reality and how organizations make decisions. Or that they are not aware of the actual circumstances that caused last years regression. And it was not because they did not start McBribe or Obi.
Shit guys, there's some really good content getting written on UK.fanpage. Martin, you might want to think about curating an annual book edition. Two months into the offseason when all the NBA sites are silent and every morning when I get up there's a bunch of good stuff to read.
Hofstra- the last paragraph here is golden.
Although I often respond to the nonsense (and likely have produced my share), overall this board is virtually the only place I see reasoned and informed Knick analysis and opinions. Not on the other board I sometimes visit, and sure as hell not in the media.
KnickDanger wrote:gradyandrew wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Nalod wrote:.............and he don't develop yoot.Well he developed them enough to complain they good enough to compete for minutes!
RJ broke the Charlie Ward curse. How many coaches didn't?
Mitch too!
Love Grimes? OK, so does Thibs.
Is he perfect? Hell no. We all kind yoot and picks now. Thing is we could have leveraged all of it and had a better team?
Maybe, maybe middling better. Kind of like the Bulls are.
I don't know if any of this will work, but its different now.Under Thibs watch, IQ, Obi, Grimes, RJ, MR have ALL improved consistently. Not to mention Sims had some immediate impact. But yeah, he does not develop youth.
Thibs did not have a true PG for most of the year. Yet fans want to act like that is no big deal. If you played the sport or have watched a good amount of basketball, you should know how important that is. Fans getting on players and coaches for not performing as they did in 2021 shows little knowledge of that. Anyone claiming Rose should just start "ALL YOOTS" shows little knowledge of reality and how organizations make decisions. Or that they are not aware of the actual circumstances that caused last years regression. And it was not because they did not start McBribe or Obi.
Shit guys, there's some really good content getting written on UK.fanpage. Martin, you might want to think about curating an annual book edition. Two months into the offseason when all the NBA sites are silent and every morning when I get up there's a bunch of good stuff to read.
Hofstra- the last paragraph here is golden.
Although I often respond to the nonsense (and likely have produced my share), overall this board is virtually the only place I see reasoned and informed Knick analysis and opinions. Not on the other board I sometimes visit, and sure as hell not in the media.
https://www.postingandtoasting.com/2022/...
I just read this post and thought the exact same thing!
Only Knicks media guy who's opinion I really respect is Ian Begley. I can't think of anyone else's opinion I would respect more than the posters here.
KnickDanger wrote:gradyandrew wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Nalod wrote:.............and he don't develop yoot.Well he developed them enough to complain they good enough to compete for minutes!
RJ broke the Charlie Ward curse. How many coaches didn't?
Mitch too!
Love Grimes? OK, so does Thibs.
Is he perfect? Hell no. We all kind yoot and picks now. Thing is we could have leveraged all of it and had a better team?
Maybe, maybe middling better. Kind of like the Bulls are.
I don't know if any of this will work, but its different now.Under Thibs watch, IQ, Obi, Grimes, RJ, MR have ALL improved consistently. Not to mention Sims had some immediate impact. But yeah, he does not develop youth.
Thibs did not have a true PG for most of the year. Yet fans want to act like that is no big deal. If you played the sport or have watched a good amount of basketball, you should know how important that is. Fans getting on players and coaches for not performing as they did in 2021 shows little knowledge of that. Anyone claiming Rose should just start "ALL YOOTS" shows little knowledge of reality and how organizations make decisions. Or that they are not aware of the actual circumstances that caused last years regression. And it was not because they did not start McBribe or Obi.
Shit guys, there's some really good content getting written on UK.fanpage. Martin, you might want to think about curating an annual book edition. Two months into the offseason when all the NBA sites are silent and every morning when I get up there's a bunch of good stuff to read.
Hofstra- the last paragraph here is golden.
Although I often respond to the nonsense (and likely have produced my share), overall this board is virtually the only place I see reasoned and informed Knick analysis and opinions. Not on the other board I sometimes visit, and sure as hell not in the media.
Time and time again I would read an opinion or someone's take on an issue on these boards and then 'Bam' a day or two later there is an article on the landing page of UK where some blogger echoes that same take or opinion. It's pretty consistent
These teams are better than us:
Celtics
Bucks
76ers
Nets
Cavs
Hawks
Raptors
Heat
Bulls
martin wrote:You are constantly stating things that you THINK are happening not what is actually happening.There is this mental hump that many seem to have with Thibs. You don't even have to like him or his style but stating obvious things are are literally incorrect... I don't know what that is. Let me show you how:
blkexec wrote:But my point still stands. When you have a deep team and a coach that appears to play or (want to play) a shorter rotation (8-9 guys), and simply doesn't adjust OR takes too long to adjust, thats not a good match for this roster thats 11 deep (if you include Cam). Yes Thibs ran a 9-10 man rotation last year, but that was forced (in my opinion). That did not appear to be the norm (student of Van Gundy and Riley so I'm not surprised).For the last 2 years, give or take, Thibs has played just about 10 guys with 2 full rotations. In his stints with Chicago and Minny, he played 9-10 guys consistently. Literally, WTF do you mean by "a coach that appears to play or want to play"? That's just you projecting something that does not meet reality.
Thibs literally appears to want to play 10 guys, not the opposite.
Ok so first I applaud your post clean up responses. Spot on for that and why this is a great site that you run very well. But I believe I said “in my opinion” and I believe I responded to fish saying yes thigs “starts 5 and brings 5” off the bench. I watch almost every single game and Thibs is extremely robotic and consistent and predictable with his rotation (like it or not) min distributions and keeping the starting 5 and bench 5 together for the most part (develops team chemistry). Yes I agree again just to be clear on those facts.
In my opinion I still feel like he prefers a tighter rotation and in my experience a tighter rotation is better at all levels of basketball. I’ve coached and played enough to understand that. Again I’m not saying it’s good or bad on thibs approach I’m saying it’s a mis- match with the FO and Thibs. to have thibs as a coach for this deep young team. Cam and Obi are clear examples of that mis alignment between FO and Thibs.
“We need to develop the yoots” is an old discussion that’s dead in my opinion and we already discussed last year several times already. Some believe bringing in the yoots along side the vets (which is what thibs has done) is development. I never knocked anybodys opinion on that. To me that’s one type of hybrid development. There are other ways to develop youths (even if you and others disagree). But I think we finally need an all in development approach without blockers like Randle or Rose or Fournier. Those three for example are blocking mins for players like Obi, Cam, IQ and Deuce.
This is a knick forum for fans to voice their opinions. And in my opinion, instead of those vets getting mins, I rather those mins go to the 3 or 4 yoots I mentioned above. Period. Enough with this hybrid development stuff. We didn’t hire thibs to develop youths, we hired thibs to win now. If RJ and company are being developed at the same time great. That’s a hybrid development strategy that comes with win now coaches who believes certain young players should get vet type mins. But stop kidding yourself. Grimes might be in the gleague next to deuce if it wasn’t for Covid so stop that. Thibs said it himself he wants to win now during his first press conference. That’s why we added vets so we can win. That’s great but that one year or 4th seed wasn’t a good representation of this team. Plus the FO moved some parts around trying to improve a formula that actually made us worse with Kemba and EF in the backcourt. Another sign of FO weakest but that for another discussion thread. Overall the FO doing better than I expected but I still have my doubts on certain things.
I’m saying moving forward, since we did not get DM in the trade, this year is the perfect time to start a full development mode and play these guys 30 plus mins. Play Obi and cam. Remove the blockers. We not going anywhere and knick fans are finally with the patient route. About time. Take advantage of that this year. Then maybe an Obi and IQ or Deuce trade or cam trade they are more valuable because other teams see them playing real mins. Look at the cavs. They play their new guys and was able to flip them. Can’t increase value if they are blocked by vets.
—-Mind BLOWN—-
Philc1 wrote:So the issue is not spacing and pacing issues caused by Randle/Obi being bad low percentage shooters at PF the issue is all these other times are better than us? Maybe the reason why they are better is our spacing and pacing issues caused by low efficiency shooters in the rotation
—-Mind BLOWN—-
Small minds are easily imploded.
Your having a hissy fit.
Seriously, teams that are better at things are better teams. Not much to blow.
blkexec wrote:martin wrote:You are constantly stating things that you THINK are happening not what is actually happening.There is this mental hump that many seem to have with Thibs. You don't even have to like him or his style but stating obvious things are are literally incorrect... I don't know what that is. Let me show you how:
blkexec wrote:But my point still stands. When you have a deep team and a coach that appears to play or (want to play) a shorter rotation (8-9 guys), and simply doesn't adjust OR takes too long to adjust, thats not a good match for this roster thats 11 deep (if you include Cam). Yes Thibs ran a 9-10 man rotation last year, but that was forced (in my opinion). That did not appear to be the norm (student of Van Gundy and Riley so I'm not surprised).For the last 2 years, give or take, Thibs has played just about 10 guys with 2 full rotations. In his stints with Chicago and Minny, he played 9-10 guys consistently. Literally, WTF do you mean by "a coach that appears to play or want to play"? That's just you projecting something that does not meet reality.
Thibs literally appears to want to play 10 guys, not the opposite.
Ok so first I applaud your post clean up responses. Spot on for that and why this is a great site that you run very well. But I believe I said “in my opinion” and I believe I responded to fish saying yes thigs “starts 5 and brings 5” off the bench. I watch almost every single game and Thibs is extremely robotic and consistent and predictable with his rotation (like it or not) min distributions and keeping the starting 5 and bench 5 together for the most part (develops team chemistry). Yes I agree again just to be clear on those facts.
In my opinion I still feel like he prefers a tighter rotation and in my experience a tighter rotation is better at all levels of basketball. I’ve coached and played enough to understand that. Again I’m not saying it’s good or bad on thibs approach I’m saying it’s a mis- match with the FO and Thibs. to have thibs as a coach for this deep young team. Cam and Obi are clear examples of that mis alignment between FO and Thibs.
“We need to develop the yoots” is an old discussion that’s dead in my opinion and we already discussed last year several times already. Some believe bringing in the yoots along side the vets (which is what thibs has done) is development. I never knocked anybodys opinion on that. To me that’s one type of hybrid development. There are other ways to develop youths (even if you and others disagree). But I think we finally need an all in development approach without blockers like Randle or Rose or Fournier. Those three for example are blocking mins for players like Obi, Cam, IQ and Deuce.
This is a knick forum for fans to voice their opinions. And in my opinion, instead of those vets getting mins, I rather those mins go to the 3 or 4 yoots I mentioned above. Period. Enough with this hybrid development stuff. We didn’t hire thibs to develop youths, we hired thibs to win now. If RJ and company are being developed at the same time great. That’s a hybrid development strategy that comes with win now coaches who believes certain young players should get vet type mins. But stop kidding yourself. Grimes might be in the gleague next to deuce if it wasn’t for Covid so stop that. Thibs said it himself he wants to win now during his first press conference. That’s why we added vets so we can win. That’s great but that one year or 4th seed wasn’t a good representation of this team. Plus the FO moved some parts around trying to improve a formula that actually made us worse with Kemba and EF in the backcourt. Another sign of FO weakest but that for another discussion thread. Overall the FO doing better than I expected but I still have my doubts on certain things.
I’m saying moving forward, since we did not get DM in the trade, this year is the perfect time to start a full development mode and play these guys 30 plus mins. Play Obi and cam. Remove the blockers. We not going anywhere and knick fans are finally with the patient route. About time. Take advantage of that this year. Then maybe an Obi and IQ or Deuce trade or cam trade they are more valuable because other teams see them playing real mins. Look at the cavs. They play their new guys and was able to flip them. Can’t increase value if they are blocked by vets.
Agree, everyone is allowed to voice their opinion. And this is what a forum is for.
Also think that opinions are heavily influenced by ones past experiences and subject knowledge.
A Girls HS Mom, whos daughter is the 10th best player on a team, is upset that her daughter does not start. The mom, who has never played or watched the sport, feels the daughter should start because the last time she played she was able to score a layup. Her knowledge and experience does not allow her to understand that even though her daughter scored a lay up, it does not mean she is as good as the others. She is not able to notice that her daughter misses coverages on defense, does not execute the offensive plays and panics every time the other team presses. Thibs is an experienced coach and former COY. He recognizes who has the intangibles that fit best for what he is looking for. For example, in the case of Obi, maybe it's his inability to keep his defender on the perimeter. Offenses are able to play off him when he is on the perimeter (Reason why he gets so many chances to back cut for an alley-oop when defenders lose site of him). In a league where shooting is so important, Obi has yet to show he can and will need to improve before he is given major minutes. In the case of Deuce, who I know you like, any coach worth a dime is not going to elevate his bottom guy over other guys that have earned time before him. Deuce has also had a couple of chances and did not take full advantage. Grimes on the other hand did. In the NBA or any other professional sport, when given the chance, you must take full advantage and really shine in order to knock someone off their post. Hopefully he will be ready the next time he gets a shot.
In terms of the FO getting on the right page, as you call it. Think Thibs and the FO are on the same page. Thibs job is to win, develop ALL his players, get his best players performing at their highest level and to build a reputation that is respected by others and attracts top players. The FO's job is to win, provide the coach with good players, and build a reputation that is respected by others and attracts top players. Benching/Trading a recent All Star player who "struggled" for a player in his second year that cannot shoot but is a fan favorite is not a way to build a reputation that is respected. Instead, it is a message to the league/team that you are an organization/coach that will trade/bench a player who became an All Star, took less on his extension, just because he put up 20.1ppg vs 24.1ppg / 9.9rpg vs 10.2rpg / 5.1 asst vs 6.0? or did not repeat an incredible 41% from 3pt!
Agree you should have your opinion, but maybe you can consider some of these realities.