Knicks · All-in youth trade: Westbrook for Randle, Fournier, Rose. (page 1)

No idea if the Lakers would go for this and quite frankly they prob wouldn’t.

Would you do this trade for a singular 2017 draft pick?

It resets the salary cap situation for the Knicks giving them enough to sign pretty much any UFA.

It obviously resets the youth movement too, literally the whole team would be 26 and under with minutes enough for everyone.

No.

Fans may want this but to me its a tank. If not, they we doing the middle thing.
Your also likely sending DRose out too I assume?
If its a tank, then its got purpose.
Then we have lots of picks coming in and thats not easy except fans do the “we can move up”, or “draft better players”, or the open concept of “its better than Randle”.
Do I have a better idea? Not really. Why? Because none of this is absolute!
Im good to see what Randle and EF brings. If not, bring the kids on. If both are great, trades will happen.

That is selling extremely low on every one of those players. The pick might make me second guess though. I am still leaning no.

Yes. We get to unload salary, roll the dice on Obi and see what we got in Grimes and IQ. Most importantly, we got rid of Randle.

I’ll respond to both in one go.

So just to be clear, the trade is Fournier, Randle, DRose for Westbrook and an unprotected 2027 round pick.

For me there is some very wide, gray area between straight tanking ala OKC and some worthwhile development via playing time. IMHO the young players are full on ready for loads of deserved minutes: RJ, IQ, Grimes, Obi, Cam, Brunson, Mitch, Hart all especially so. Deuce, Jericho less so but still could be part of an extended rotation. 8 main players plus 2 fill ins for injury.

I get the notion of selling extremely low, at the same time Lakers aren’t trading both of their picks (if they even do the trade in the first place). What you are buying is more playing time for 6 or more young players, one more pick in 2027, a ton of cap space (hello someone like Wiggins or another free agent), AND the Knicks 2023 pick will be much better.

If you are selling off each of Fournier, Randle, DRose individually or in some different trade, what are you getting back? Randle may cost you something, Fournier may be neutral’ish and what does a 34 year old coming back from injury get you? And even if the Knicks DONT trade those 3 and they come out playing really well, what are you trading them for that would be beneficial above and beyond the proposed (while recognizing the risk of all 3 not realizing their max playing ability).

DRose, Fournier, Randle will certainly get you a better record but to what long term benefit? Do any of the young players benefit from having those vets in front of them? IMHO not any more.

Nalod wrote:No.

Fans may want this but to me its a tank. If not, they we doing the middle thing.
Your also likely sending DRose out too I assume?
If its a tank, then its got purpose.
Then we have lots of picks coming in and thats not easy except fans do the “we can move up”, or “draft better players”, or the open concept of “its better than Randle”.
Do I have a better idea? Not really. Why? Because none of this is absolute!
Im good to see what Randle and EF brings. If not, bring the kids on. If both are great, trades will happen.

Clean wrote:That is selling extremely low on every one of those players. The pick might make me second guess though. I am still leaning no.

martin wrote:No idea if the Lakers would go for this and quite frankly they prob wouldn’t.

Would you do this trade for a singular 2017 draft pick?

It resets the salary cap situation for the Knicks giving them enough to sign pretty much any UFA.

It obviously resets the youth movement too, literally the whole team would be 26 and under with minutes enough for everyone.

You would have to get rid of the coach and the FO first. Also the owner.

FO did not just sign JB to play with a whole bunch of question marks. Feel that would have been a presentation that would have been rejected by JB's team. Would also be strange that they would choose a long term rebuild with three players they were just rumored to have offered in a trade.

My biggest opposition comes from my lack of confidence with "resetting the cap space" and just having more draft picks. We have both recently and did not do much with it. We already have a sound youth base, a former All Star, a new true PG and A LOT of draft picks. Think we deserve better than just "go with our current youngsters".
However, cant say that I would be opposed to it if the team shit the bed the first half.

BigDaddyG wrote:Yes. We get to unload salary, roll the dice on Obi and see what we got in Grimes and IQ. Most importantly, we got rid of Randle.

I'm in this boat...As presently constructed, I think we compete for seeds 8-10. We will go into this summer with the same unanswered questions we had entering this past summer. Can Obi be legit stater in this league? If this is still and unanswered question after yr 3, we will have completely mismanaged an asset. Speaking of mismanaging an asset, we traded a 1st for Cam. Not
saying Cam is going to be an allstar, but to have him completely outside of the rotation after giving up a 1st to evaluate him as a prospect was another mistake.

IQ showed enough last year to at least be the exclusive back up point and maybe grab a few mins at the 2. With 34 year old Rose coming back, IQ will play exclusive back up 2 and will probably lose some mins when Fournier is benched down the stretch for defensive purposes and Grimes will probably pick up those mins in the 4th. Remove Randle, Fournier and Rose and I still think we can compete for a play-in spot and if we miss the play-in, the lotto is not a bad consolation prize. In addition, we will get a full year to evaluate Obi, IQ and Grimes with legit starter mins. Obi and IQ, I believe are up for extensions next summer.

With that said, Can't see the Lakers making this trade.

martin wrote:No idea if the Lakers would go for this and quite frankly they prob wouldn’t.

Would you do this trade for a singular 2017 draft pick?

It resets the salary cap situation for the Knicks giving them enough to sign pretty much any UFA.

It obviously resets the youth movement too, literally the whole team would be 26 and under with minutes enough for everyone.

Have to be honest — these Randle workout vids that are pooping up are starting to make me think this cat might have a big year both personally & for the team.

He looks in amazing shape and we have to consider the potential positive impact of Brunson game / leadership on Randle.

So no on your idea Martin but if we are talking Westbrook & 2 picks for Randle/Rose (no Fournier) - that I might do.

Assuming LA would do this trade the best one would be for Randle and Rose IMO. Gives them both a chance to help a star while opening up the necessary playing time we need to evaluate our young players this season. I'd do it for 1st round pick as we locked up Randle for 4 more years and really can't see him being here successfully much longer anyway. I think we'd be headed for a buyout if his value plummets any further. While LA has not been high on Randle rejoining - putting D. Rose might just make it work as Rose would be awesome in the vet role off the bench and to close out games with Lebron and AD, etc

If I'm being completely honest I'd do it for no picks and just the chance to get out of the Randle situation/contract. Realize that is bad value management, but recognizing you already made a poor choice is crucial... and the only thing worse would be to wait and have to attach a pick to get out of his deal.

I think the Lakers plan on going after Kyrie in FA next offseason, which is why they're rumored to only want expirings and not multi year contracts, unless the players they can get back make them contenders- that would be the main hurdle. If they don't take on salary they can have about $30mil to offer Kyrie.

smackeddog wrote:I think the Lakers plan on going after Kyrie in FA next offseason, which is why they're rumored to only want expirings and not multi year contracts, unless the players they can get back make them contenders- that would be the main hurdle. If they don't take on salary they can have about $30mil to offer Kyrie.

I also think this is their plan.

LivingLegend wrote:

martin wrote:No idea if the Lakers would go for this and quite frankly they prob wouldn’t.

Would you do this trade for a singular 2017 draft pick?

It resets the salary cap situation for the Knicks giving them enough to sign pretty much any UFA.

It obviously resets the youth movement too, literally the whole team would be 26 and under with minutes enough for everyone.

Have to be honest — these Randle workout vids that are pooping up are starting to make me think this cat might have a big year both personally & for the team.

He looks in amazing shape and we have to consider the potential positive impact of Brunson game / leadership on Randle.

So no on your idea Martin but if we are talking Westbrook & 2 picks for Randle/Rose (no Fournier) - that I might do.

I see these shots being practiced and just think they are the most inefficient shots he could be taking. One handed 18 footer from the right side of the court falling away from the basket. Let’s get that 3 back above 37% first…

This might be the right question at the first trade deadline. Right now its selling low and calling the season before its even started. Most of the young players we've drafted, with the exception of RJ, dont have a great deal of experience against starters. Not enough to be handing them the job without proving they're ready first.

Randle and RJ are in the top 2 or 3 in minutes, last time I checked. Instead of giving them more minutes than pretty much everyone else
in the league. I'd rather see some of those minutes go to the yoots. The "were up by twenty to start the 4th" kind of minutes. Where Thibs insists on playing RJ and Randle to the end. We have Brunson now, no good reason for that to happen this season.

If Randle and Fournier arent cutting it, increase bench minutes. Gives them PT, and sends a warning to the starters that no job is safe. Id rather sell low when the players who are replacing them show they're ready. Thats how you build the culture. Instead of clearing a path.

We might luck out and find that Randle and Fournier are playing well, the young players as well. If that happens, we have the luxury of selling high, and putting the youth movement on the front burner, so to speak.

This is all about the approach.Forget the talent and the fit and the contracts. Do we want to make the best team we can with the talent on the roster RIGHT NOW? Then yes, it's Rose in the second unit, Randle starting. Fournier contributing ( prolly as a backup because Grimes checks more boxes already as a player) It would mean fighting for a play-in spot.
Or we can do something different. Admit that our vets won't bring us even to the second round. Free up time for the youth. Start Grimes. Give Obi major minutes. Same for IQ. I don't care how, whether it's by trade or a totally different allocation of minutes, a stretch provision even, whatever, that's not the point. The point is that our youth might be good enough to fight for the play-in even with that approach. Maybe not, but one thing is certain. Our young players will improve their game and their value with additional minutes and we would improve as a team in 23-24. Much more so than in the first scenario. That's where I am at and I approve of this message. Please sign me up for your newsletter. My answer is YES

ramtour420 wrote:This is all about the approach.Forget the talent and the fit and the contracts. Do we want to make the best team we can with the talent on the roster RIGHT NOW? Then yes, it's Rose in the second unit, Randle starting. Fournier contributing ( prolly as a backup because Grimes checks more boxes already as a player) It would mean fighting for a play-in spot.
Or we can do something different. Admit that our vets won't bring us even to the second round. Free up time for the youth. Start Grimes. Give Obi major minutes. Same for IQ. I don't care how, whether it's by trade or a totally different allocation of minutes, a stretch provision even, whatever, that's not the point. The point is that our youth might be good enough to fight for the play-in even with that approach. Maybe not, but one thing is certain. Our young players will improve their game and their value with additional minutes and we would improve as a team in 23-24. Much more so than in the first scenario. That's where I am at and I approve of this message. Please sign me up for your newsletter. My answer is YES

As long as Grimes starts, I am fine with the current roster (although I prefer Randle gone). I am so high on Grimes’ potential. Moreover, his 3pt shooting will create more space for RJ and Randle. As long as Randle plays within himself and cuts down on the stupid turnovers, I can live with him staying on the team, even though I think Obi has more potential as the starting PF.

martin wrote:No idea if the Lakers would go for this and quite frankly they prob wouldn’t.

Would you do this trade for a singular 2017 draft pick?

It resets the salary cap situation for the Knicks giving them enough to sign pretty much any UFA.

It obviously resets the youth movement too, literally the whole team would be 26 and under with minutes enough for everyone.

I think this ship sailed at last seasons trade deadline. I'm guessing LAL would have agreed because you could get two playoff runs out of that group and it was assumed Kyrie would get an extension. Now that LeBron has extended, there's less urgency in LA. LBJ has signalled he's cool getting his scoring crown next season playoffs or no.

I actually think a deadline deal for AD makes more sense. Lakers are short on rotation players and draft picks. They are not going anywhere with AD missing 30 games a year. Something like Fournier Reddish and Robinson solves a lot of their problems and a bunch of draft picks. AD gives the Knicks a true number one guy and Hart and Sims provide the depth when he inevitably misses games.

EwingsGlass wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

martin wrote:No idea if the Lakers would go for this and quite frankly they prob wouldn’t.

Would you do this trade for a singular 2017 draft pick?

It resets the salary cap situation for the Knicks giving them enough to sign pretty much any UFA.

It obviously resets the youth movement too, literally the whole team would be 26 and under with minutes enough for everyone.

Have to be honest — these Randle workout vids that are pooping up are starting to make me think this cat might have a big year both personally & for the team.

He looks in amazing shape and we have to consider the potential positive impact of Brunson game / leadership on Randle.

So no on your idea Martin but if we are talking Westbrook & 2 picks for Randle/Rose (no Fournier) - that I might do.

I see these shots being practiced and just think they are the most inefficient shots he could be taking. One handed 18 footer from the right side of the court falling away from the basket. Let’s get that 3 back above 37% first…

Yep - those floaters are brutal and scary if we are going to see a bunch of those this season.

I was more referring to his body & apparent condition — if you are in elite condition that can cover other issues and at least indicates the player is engaged. Shot selection and over dominance of the ball will likely continue with Julius regardless of his conditioning but his physicality is important to this team.

I don't understand the rush to give Grimes big minutes. He was hurt a bunch last year and came up small in the biggest game in Summer League.

Love the guy, agree he has potential, but not sure you can thrust him into that role this year.

If he beats Fournier out during the season or out of training camp, I will be cheering him on.

How come ALL the top star FA been refusing to sign with the Knicks in the offseason the past two decade ???
I can wait for the answer.

Lowering the Knicks cap to sign a top star FA has not work for the Knicks past ten GM's.
The Knicks cap in the 2021 offseason were low enough to sign two of the 6 top FA, which the Knicks signed none. Plus in the 2021 offseason the Knicks loss their best hustle/chemistry player in the starter lineup to the FA market .. Bullocks!

Derrick Rose leadership has mentored Quickley & Obi Toppin to perform like winning players on both sides of the court. D.Rose court dynamics made the Knicks a season winning team and should be a KEEPER till he retire !!!

And you don’t think Rose already tried this trade?

franco12 wrote:I don't understand the rush to give Grimes big minutes. He was hurt a bunch last year and came up small in the biggest game in Summer League.

Love the guy, agree he has potential, but not sure you can thrust him into that role this year.

If he beats Fournier out during the season or out of training camp, I will be cheering him on.

21-22 season 3point shooting stats:
Grimes - 38%
Fournier - 38%

21-22 defense:
Grimes- yes
Fournier - no

Age:
Fournier -29 y/o , 12 seasons in the league
Grimes -22y/o, 1 season in the league