Knicks · Grimes v Fournier - Is Thibbs Right to Start EF? (page 2)
foosballnick wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:BRIGGS wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:gradyandrew wrote:Cam baby! Let's put the hurt on the east with our D!I love this.
Its reasonable thought process as well. Hes the only 6-8 guy.
With a 7'2 wingspan and 92% career FT%. He's the kind of guy I would have drafted. Great biometrics. Great indicators. Screams of a guy just needing an opportunity to shine.
Great measurables do not necessarily mean a great NBA player. Cam has significant physical potential but does he also have significant work ethic, motor and desire to succeed regardless of role? I love the kid's potential and want him to succeed here as that would put the Knicks in a much better place......but it is all still a TBD.
Spot on, that's the key for Cam.
I'm with you, love his potential, Cam needs to step up with urgency.
Every Knicks opponent knows they can't leave (a spot-shooter) Fournier open on the perimeter, that's where the Knicks forwards come into play by setting screens for Fournier to go around and shoot. That did not happen last season. Why?
In the past 3 seasons I don't recall Randle or Barrett setting a screen or pick for any of their teammates?
Dallas Mavs pay Reggie Bullock $10M per for multi-position defense and to set great screens & Picks for Luka, Bunson, and Tim Hardaway Jr. on offense.
Putting Fournier in a bench lineup alongside D.Rose, Quickley, Fournier, Obi, and Hart will make the Knicks 2nd unit bench lineup better than the starter lineup again !!!
Kemet wrote:The only reason certain Knicks fans want Grimes (Defense) in the starter lineup are because Brunson & Barrett are poor defenders. And to have a trio (PG/SG/SF) of poor defensive players in the starter lineup for 82 games ....Every Knicks opponent knows they can't leave (a spot-shooter) Fournier open on the perimeter, that's where the Knicks forwards come into play by setting screens for Fournier to go around and shoot. That did not happen last season. Why?
In the past 3 seasons I don't recall Randle or Barrett setting a screen or pick for any of their teammates?
Dallas Mavs pay Reggie Bullock $10M per for multi-position defense and to set great screens & Picks for Luka, Bunson, and Tim Hardaway Jr. on offense.Putting Fournier in a bench lineup alongside D.Rose, Quickley, Fournier, Obi, and Hart will make the Knicks 2nd unit bench lineup better than the starter lineup again !!!
If that is in fact the case, then that is more on coaching than the players. The bottomline is Grimes will either prove he is so much better than Fournier that Thibbs is forced to start him or Grimes fails to prove that fact. All I want is for Thibbs to give him enough minutes to have a fair chance at proving he should be the starter at some point this season.
Regarding Reddish, I haven't seen enough of him to form an opinion on where he fits in. I hope he stays healthy, so we can get a good idea of what he actually brings to the table.
Usage also plays a part. Obi has pretty low usage as will Hart presumably, meaning NY could get the 1-3s in the second unit more time with the ball. Brunson, RJ, and Randle all figure to have more than 20% usage meaning the other guys will have to be effective without the ball.
Fans love to play with the conceptual and do make good points. If the wins are not there its easy to say “whats the harm is trying it”. When eventually that players succeeds, its like “told you so”. Reality is the player is developing still with uncertainty. hindsight gives you certainty.
Thibs is not unusual to deal with absolutes. Randle has a defined skill set and has reached very good levels. He also is not consistent or the conditions have to be just so.
RJ just turned 22 this off season. 6’6 or 6’7, and is not skinny kid. He has to finish better to the rim but he gets there and is still filling out. Kid is putting on muscle. Thib and Knicks are and have been developing this kid 3 years now doing all the things fans yell about. Yes, letting a young kid develop on the fly. Thibs, the guy who never plays yoot, only trusts vets had played this kid all along.
My thinking is he is a wing and thats been the plan all along to get him there. Not the 2.
For now I like Brunson, EF and RJ. With Randle that gives us shooting and abilty to play a faster pace. Mitch needs to improve outlet passing and perhaps get out and faster himself like Capella does. Just my thoughts.
If Thibs sees Grimes as the way to finish over EF if his shot is not falling and Grimes is. Great. If it works why change that At the same time keep doing that as a prerequisite to him becoming a starter down the road perhaps next season? Why rush it? Grimes still has to prove better playmaking skills and Summer league was not close to demonstrating that. It will come.
If we suck, yes, then go to plan B.
You have three ball dominant players in the starting lineup. Grimes is the better spot of shooter and defender. If you can’t include him for a top 25 player he needs to be starting. If nothing else than to give the team a different look.
Adding Fournier to the bench unit gives them more creativity and allows him to get more looks.
Thibs was unbelievably disappointing last season with the spot minutes for Obi, the leeway he gave Randle and the misuse of Burks.
The front office and the coach need to be on the same page.
I’m expecting cam to play hard with a higher motor this season. This is his last change to justify a big pay day. And what better motivation to have than RJ who recently signed a large contract. Cam can only go up from here.
Agree with EF starting which is why players especially vets love to play for thibs. But he can’t play 15 players so the pressure will eventually fall on the FO.
And even when he is playing well, when you look at his actual production it doesn’t look as good on paper. (Then we chalk it up to intangibles or immaturity, growing into his frame, etc)
He doesn’t produce his own epic workouts, but videos like this are posted where you’d be sure you were watching a young Kevin Durant or PG13:
He’s in a “prove it” season. With his tools and “the look” of a good basketball player, he’ll get lots of chances to earn a big contract. (On the other hand, look at how little Zion has played - in 3 seasons, he’s played barely a season worth of basketball, but it was enough to gamble a max deal with him.)
Cam’s only been here half a season.
Lets see how it all ends up. To be fair, sometimes you burn assets for opportunities. Some hit, some don’t.
Sometimes you get gifts that cost nothing. Brunson, Randle (LOL), Evan (more LOL) and DRose. Grimes and IQ were great value picks.
With all the picks we have it was seen that Cam was someone who could impact more than any other low draft pick at the wing. Lets see how it works out. We are pan mining for gold.
Nalod wrote:The pick used to get cam has yet to convey so its not burned.
Cam’s only been here half a season.
Lets see how it all ends up. To be fair, sometimes you burn assets for opportunities. Some hit, some don’t.
Sometimes you get gifts that cost nothing. Brunson, Randle (LOL), Evan (more LOL) and DRose. Grimes and IQ were great value picks.
With all the picks we have it was seen that Cam was someone who could impact more than any other low draft pick at the wing. Lets see how it works out. We are pan mining for gold.
Not only has the pick not convey, the Knicks may have LUCKED into trading the pick at exactly the right time. The pick may never convey as a first rounder because of the Miles Bridges fiasco.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
"Charlotte's 1st round pick to San Antonio protected for selections 1-16 in 2023, 1-14 in 2024 and 1-14 in 2025; if Charlotte has not conveyed a 1st round pick to San Antonio by 2025, then Charlotte will instead convey its 2026 2nd round pick and 2027 2nd round draft pick to San Antonio"
martin wrote:Nalod wrote:The pick used to get cam has yet to convey so its not burned.
Cam’s only been here half a season.
Lets see how it all ends up. To be fair, sometimes you burn assets for opportunities. Some hit, some don’t.
Sometimes you get gifts that cost nothing. Brunson, Randle (LOL), Evan (more LOL) and DRose. Grimes and IQ were great value picks.
With all the picks we have it was seen that Cam was someone who could impact more than any other low draft pick at the wing. Lets see how it works out. We are pan mining for gold.Not only has the pick not convey, the Knicks may have LUCKED into trading the pick at exactly the right time. The pick may never convey as a first rounder because of the Miles Bridges fiasco.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
"Charlotte's 1st round pick to San Antonio protected for selections 1-16 in 2023, 1-14 in 2024 and 1-14 in 2025; if Charlotte has not conveyed a 1st round pick to San Antonio by 2025, then Charlotte will instead convey its 2026 2nd round pick and 2027 2nd round draft pick to San Antonio"
I tee’d that up for you!!! I knew you had this one…………..
one thing though, there is a rumor out there that Jordan might cash out. It blows my mind that he has not succeeded in running the franchise outside of not paying taxes. I’d be surprosed that his competitive nature would be satisfied with just a financial win.
martin wrote:foosballnick wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:BRIGGS wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:gradyandrew wrote:Cam baby! Let's put the hurt on the east with our D!I love this.
Its reasonable thought process as well. Hes the only 6-8 guy.
With a 7'2 wingspan and 92% career FT%. He's the kind of guy I would have drafted. Great biometrics. Great indicators. Screams of a guy just needing an opportunity to shine.
Great measurables do not necessarily mean a great NBA player. Cam has significant physical potential but does he also have significant work ethic, motor and desire to succeed regardless of role? I love the kid's potential and want him to succeed here as that would put the Knicks in a much better place......but it is all still a TBD.
Spot on, that's the key for Cam.
I'm with you, love his potential, Cam needs to step up with urgency.
I agree
I personally think he acts more entitled than Jared Kushner
technomaster wrote:Cam has been going to the Frank Ntilikina school of missed opportunities. Finally gets the opportunity, plays well for a short stretch, gets injured, gets replaced in the rotation, gets an opportunity again, plays well for a short stretch, injured again.And even when he is playing well, when you look at his actual production it doesn’t look as good on paper. (Then we chalk it up to intangibles or immaturity, growing into his frame, etc)
He doesn’t produce his own epic workouts, but videos like this are posted where you’d be sure you were watching a young Kevin Durant or PG13:
He’s in a “prove it” season. With his tools and “the look” of a good basketball player, he’ll get lots of chances to earn a big contract. (On the other hand, look at how little Zion has played - in 3 seasons, he’s played barely a season worth of basketball, but it was enough to gamble a max deal with him.)
I hope you are not agreeing with the title of this video, because it is NOT "impressive" to me. This looks like any dude in a YMCA, frankly. I'm not saying he is, just saying this video does not show me anything impressive at all.
Agree with Technomaster that Cam is out to prove himself. The question is wether or not he will play with a sense of urgency, as other posters have pointed out. Or will it be mostly talk? I have no idea.
Cam has skills for a big man. But I agree that what we were seeing in that clip, was Cam showing skills at half speed. Not NBA speed. Thats where the urgency comes in.
Panos wrote:technomaster wrote:Cam has been going to the Frank Ntilikina school of missed opportunities. Finally gets the opportunity, plays well for a short stretch, gets injured, gets replaced in the rotation, gets an opportunity again, plays well for a short stretch, injured again.And even when he is playing well, when you look at his actual production it doesn’t look as good on paper. (Then we chalk it up to intangibles or immaturity, growing into his frame, etc)
He doesn’t produce his own epic workouts, but videos like this are posted where you’d be sure you were watching a young Kevin Durant or PG13:
He’s in a “prove it” season. With his tools and “the look” of a good basketball player, he’ll get lots of chances to earn a big contract. (On the other hand, look at how little Zion has played - in 3 seasons, he’s played barely a season worth of basketball, but it was enough to gamble a max deal with him.)
I hope you are not agreeing with the title of this video, because it is NOT "impressive" to me. This looks like any dude in a YMCA, frankly. I'm not saying he is, just saying this video does not show me anything impressive at all.
TheGame wrote:Kemet wrote:The only reason certain Knicks fans want Grimes (Defense) in the starter lineup are because Brunson & Barrett are poor defenders. And to have a trio (PG/SG/SF) of poor defensive players in the starter lineup for 82 games ....Every Knicks opponent knows they can't leave (a spot-shooter) Fournier open on the perimeter, that's where the Knicks forwards come into play by setting screens for Fournier to go around and shoot. That did not happen last season. Why?
In the past 3 seasons I don't recall Randle or Barrett setting a screen or pick for any of their teammates?
Dallas Mavs pay Reggie Bullock $10M per for multi-position defense and to set great screens & Picks for Luka, Bunson, and Tim Hardaway Jr. on offense.Putting Fournier in a bench lineup alongside D.Rose, Quickley, Fournier, Obi, and Hart will make the Knicks 2nd unit bench lineup better than the starter lineup again !!!
If that is in fact the case, then that is more on coaching than the players. The bottomline is Grimes will either prove he is so much better than Fournier that Thibbs is forced to start him or Grimes fails to prove that fact. All I want is for Thibbs to give him enough minutes to have a fair chance at proving he should be the starter at some point this season.
The 2nd season Grimes raw 2-Way skills will be best used in the 2nd half of the game bringing energy off the bench to work on his poor passing skills (Grimes big weakness from being a starter).
Grimes are still an experiment piece Thibs will need fresh to bring strong energy off the bench in the 2nd half of the games vs Hawks, Cavs, Bulls, and 76ers backcourt.
Plus Grimes is not a starter over Fournier or Quickley at the 2 spot. The Knicks young 3rd pick Barrett's raw talent can't compete against Fournier & Quickley at the 2 spot.
Hypothetically, if the Knicks still had Payton's defense as the starter PG instead of Brunson, we all would want Fournier's spot shooting as the starter at the 2 spot instead of Grimes, or Barrett.
Cam Reddish was shut down when he arrive to NY, why? What if Cam Reddish would've showed to be a complete SF by mixing well alongside combo-guard Quickley & Obi Toppin in a lineup his first month as a Knicks under Taj Gibson leadership.
I still believe D.Rose bench lineup will be more exciting to watch than Thibs starter lineup !!!
Kemet wrote:TheGame wrote:Kemet wrote:The only reason certain Knicks fans want Grimes (Defense) in the starter lineup are because Brunson & Barrett are poor defenders. And to have a trio (PG/SG/SF) of poor defensive players in the starter lineup for 82 games ....Every Knicks opponent knows they can't leave (a spot-shooter) Fournier open on the perimeter, that's where the Knicks forwards come into play by setting screens for Fournier to go around and shoot. That did not happen last season. Why?
In the past 3 seasons I don't recall Randle or Barrett setting a screen or pick for any of their teammates?
Dallas Mavs pay Reggie Bullock $10M per for multi-position defense and to set great screens & Picks for Luka, Bunson, and Tim Hardaway Jr. on offense.Putting Fournier in a bench lineup alongside D.Rose, Quickley, Fournier, Obi, and Hart will make the Knicks 2nd unit bench lineup better than the starter lineup again !!!
If that is in fact the case, then that is more on coaching than the players. The bottomline is Grimes will either prove he is so much better than Fournier that Thibbs is forced to start him or Grimes fails to prove that fact. All I want is for Thibbs to give him enough minutes to have a fair chance at proving he should be the starter at some point this season.
The 2nd season Grimes raw 2-Way skills will be best used in the 2nd half of the game bringing energy off the bench to work on his poor passing skills (Grimes big weakness from being a starter).
Grimes are still an experiment piece Thibs will need fresh to bring strong energy off the bench in the 2nd half of the games vs Hawks, Cavs, Bulls, and 76ers backcourt.
Plus Grimes is not a starter over Fournier or Quickley at the 2 spot. The Knicks young 3rd pick Barrett's raw talent can't compete against Fournier & Quickley at the 2 spot.
Hypothetically, if the Knicks still had Payton's defense as the starter PG instead of Brunson, we all would want Fournier's spot shooting as the starter at the 2 spot instead of Grimes, or Barrett.Cam Reddish was shut down when he arrive to NY, why? What if Cam Reddish would've showed to be a complete SF by mixing well alongside combo-guard Quickley & Obi Toppin in a lineup his first month as a Knicks under Taj Gibson leadership.
I still believe D.Rose bench lineup will be more exciting to watch than Thibs starter lineup !!!
Cam came, sat a few weekends until he was back in shape after some foot/Heel thing. Started getting in rotation, then got hurt. Not “shut down” in some conspiracy.
RJ is the 3.
Nalod wrote:Kemet wrote:TheGame wrote:Kemet wrote:The only reason certain Knicks fans want Grimes (Defense) in the starter lineup are because Brunson & Barrett are poor defenders. And to have a trio (PG/SG/SF) of poor defensive players in the starter lineup for 82 games ....Every Knicks opponent knows they can't leave (a spot-shooter) Fournier open on the perimeter, that's where the Knicks forwards come into play by setting screens for Fournier to go around and shoot. That did not happen last season. Why?
In the past 3 seasons I don't recall Randle or Barrett setting a screen or pick for any of their teammates?
Dallas Mavs pay Reggie Bullock $10M per for multi-position defense and to set great screens & Picks for Luka, Bunson, and Tim Hardaway Jr. on offense.Putting Fournier in a bench lineup alongside D.Rose, Quickley, Fournier, Obi, and Hart will make the Knicks 2nd unit bench lineup better than the starter lineup again !!!
If that is in fact the case, then that is more on coaching than the players. The bottomline is Grimes will either prove he is so much better than Fournier that Thibbs is forced to start him or Grimes fails to prove that fact. All I want is for Thibbs to give him enough minutes to have a fair chance at proving he should be the starter at some point this season.
The 2nd season Grimes raw 2-Way skills will be best used in the 2nd half of the game bringing energy off the bench to work on his poor passing skills (Grimes big weakness from being a starter).
Grimes are still an experiment piece Thibs will need fresh to bring strong energy off the bench in the 2nd half of the games vs Hawks, Cavs, Bulls, and 76ers backcourt.
Plus Grimes is not a starter over Fournier or Quickley at the 2 spot. The Knicks young 3rd pick Barrett's raw talent can't compete against Fournier & Quickley at the 2 spot.
Hypothetically, if the Knicks still had Payton's defense as the starter PG instead of Brunson, we all would want Fournier's spot shooting as the starter at the 2 spot instead of Grimes, or Barrett.Cam Reddish was shut down when he arrive to NY, why? What if Cam Reddish would've showed to be a complete SF by mixing well alongside combo-guard Quickley & Obi Toppin in a lineup his first month as a Knicks under Taj Gibson leadership.
I still believe D.Rose bench lineup will be more exciting to watch than Thibs starter lineup !!!Cam came, sat a few weekends until he was back in shape after some foot/Heel thing. Started getting in rotation, then got hurt. Not “shut down” in some conspiracy.
RJ is the 3.
And I will keep saying after each season RJ Barrett's not a Starter or Finisher !!!
Jimbo5 wrote:A lot of fans are worried about who starts, i hoping this seasonThibs rotation/sibstitution decisions will be better. I hope he starts trusting the second unit more than he did the past couple of seasons. If he does start Evan and Randle and when things start going sideways, the backcourt defense is very porous or if Randle is having a bad game and is imploding. If from the get go the team has gotten into a 10pt deficit early and its not getting smaller, i hope he brings in the 2nd unit in a timely fashion and not give Evan or Randle their usual 35mins or so if they are clearly part of the reason the team is loosing big.
Apparently a lot of fans are worried about who the front runner starter is after day 1 of training camp, with zero consideration to a vet who started a whole season versus a young guy who had a solid season but got cut short by injuries with the added bonus of a few good summer league games. Maybe it was the assurance of trade rumors that should have propelled said young player’s equitable front runner starter status LOL