Knicks · Trade Randall yesterday, today, and tomorrow. (page 3)

Panos wrote:Btw, for the record, I'd trade Brunson before Randle for a PG that gets more teammates involved.

No way am I trading either of them.

Panos wrote:Btw, for the record, I'd trade Brunson before Randle for a PG that gets more teammates involved.

It would be stupid to trade Brunson. His contract is fantastic for his production. We need more efficent scorers like Brunson. The biggest issue on the roster is RJ Barrett. You can't have someone that inefficent chucking 20 shots.

What's missing in order for this team to become elite is 15 plays per game where we generate easy points. We need more backdoor cuts, a few more lobs and a nice steady dose of midrange( not the ones we set at 3 point land)picks to free up guys cutting to the basket. We work too hard for our points. Brunson is being defended by taller guys now and his shenanigans near the basket are harder and harder to pull off. And he is our best ISO player.

Here is the thing. Normally guys like Randle get traded for when the receiving team has a clear idea and a set of plays how they are going to use him. For lesser players that's true even more so. Now, the really successful franchises can figure those things our themselves and put players in positions that enable them to succeed. Just need a few offensive sets tailored to him and Randle can become an All-NBA player.

Jmpasq wrote:

Panos wrote:Btw, for the record, I'd trade Brunson before Randle for a PG that gets more teammates involved.

It would be stupid to trade Brunson. His contract is fantastic for his production. We need more efficent scorers like Brunson. The biggest issue on the roster is RJ Barrett. You can't have someone that inefficent chucking 20 shots.

By traditional stats, he's one of the top 5 most clutch players in the league. And as you pointed out, on a very reasonable contract. Im surprised anyone wants to trade him already. Thats pretty fast considering.

Panos wrote:Btw, for the record, I'd trade Brunson before Randle for a PG that gets more teammates involved.

Wha?

GustavBahler wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Panos wrote:Btw, for the record, I'd trade Brunson before Randle for a PG that gets more teammates involved.

It would be stupid to trade Brunson. His contract is fantastic for his production. We need more efficent scorers like Brunson. The biggest issue on the roster is RJ Barrett. You can't have someone that inefficent chucking 20 shots.

By traditional stats, he's one of the top 5 most clutch players in the league. And as you pointed out, on a very reasonable contract. Im surprised anyone wants to trade him already. Thats pretty fast considering.

I never said i wanted to trade him. I said I'd trade him sooner than Randle specifically if we could get a good orchestrator.
I'm also fine getting a good orchestrator and moving JB to off guard. But he's have to have size to pick up the SG on defense

Panos wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Panos wrote:Btw, for the record, I'd trade Brunson before Randle for a PG that gets more teammates involved.

It would be stupid to trade Brunson. His contract is fantastic for his production. We need more efficent scorers like Brunson. The biggest issue on the roster is RJ Barrett. You can't have someone that inefficent chucking 20 shots.

By traditional stats, he's one of the top 5 most clutch players in the league. And as you pointed out, on a very reasonable contract. Im surprised anyone wants to trade him already. Thats pretty fast considering.

I never said i wanted to trade him. I said I'd trade him sooner than Randle specifically if we could get a good orchestrator.
I'm also fine getting a good orchestrator and moving JB to off guard. But he's have to have size to pick up the SG on defense

I stand corrected. I'm surprised that anyone is already open, to the prospect of trading Brunson.

I Wouldnt mind seeing Grimes and Brunson switch roles for a stretch. Let Grimes run the point, and let Brunson get buckets, like Kyrie in Cleveland.

I dont see Grimes as a bucket getter, and this would give Grimes some PT at PG, without shuffling the roster. Have Grimes take the toughest defensive assignment.

If Julius Randle were to get "traded"?

It'll have to be for nothing short of a Kevin Durant, Greek Freak and/or Nikola Jokić type of SUPERSTAR.

And why?

Because that's the type of SUPERSTAR level Julius Randle is currently playing @.

In all seriousness. Julius Randle is climbing up the All-Time NEW YORK KNICKS All-Time record books; and certain types of fans don't even REALIZE it (just yet).

Panos wrote:

SergioNYK wrote:If you can guarantee me this years Randle (in terms of attitude and motor) is what we're getting the duration of his contract, he's a keeper for sure. But guys like Randle are unpredictable.

Nobody on this team is untouchable (except maybe Brunson unless you can get a younger better PG) and I would trade Randle in the right trade but I'm not giving him away for something like Jae Crowder like I wanted to before the season. I also have to admit I've become less interested in finding minutes and a starting role for Obi. I like Obi a lot but he's not ever going to be as good and as productive as Randle.

Dude, there are no guarantees in life.
We drafted a 7'3" 3 point shooting, shot blocking unicorn that ended up injured and demanded a trade off the Knicks WHILE HE WAS OUT FOR FUCKING THE YEAR. The fucking nerve of that guy!
And here we have Randle, busting his ass every night, muscling up, barely ever misses a game, shooting threes, near the top of the league in scoring and rebounding and all at HALF max contract. And you want guarantees?

Thats one way to look at it!
KP went in with his brother looking to be traded out. Maybe looking for leverage to get resigned despite he was coming back from ACL. Recall nobody was rushing him.
There has to be comedy in this. The Brothers Portzingis thinking the whole world would stop on their demand!
THinking they set up a meeting and were like gonna shock our FO with their demand.
Maybe Mills and Perry sat there, then looked at each other and started laughing as Cube and the mavs had already come a calling. They like trying to look serious and said “ok, lets see what we can do, ok?” Janis feeling all big brother like and KP grinning as he just hanging out, rehabbing, having crazy interracial sex with his neighbor (Its was reported he was banging his neighbor and being an ass hole! Or, sounds like the start of a joke: “7ft3 blonde Latvian walks into a bar in Harlem…………..”).
KP thinking he’ll have his money, team will clean up his personal mess, and all will be great. Then he ends up on Dallas who gave him money and love, but misery too.
Meanwhile Phil is home thinking “Knicks fired me and payed me 24mil for wanting to trade that small ass”.

You can’t make this shit up!

Panos wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Panos wrote:Btw, for the record, I'd trade Brunson before Randle for a PG that gets more teammates involved.

It would be stupid to trade Brunson. His contract is fantastic for his production. We need more efficent scorers like Brunson. The biggest issue on the roster is RJ Barrett. You can't have someone that inefficent chucking 20 shots.

By traditional stats, he's one of the top 5 most clutch players in the league. And as you pointed out, on a very reasonable contract. Im surprised anyone wants to trade him already. Thats pretty fast considering.

I never said i wanted to trade him. I said I'd trade him sooner than Randle specifically if we could get a good orchestrator.
I'm also fine getting a good orchestrator and moving JB to off guard. But he's have to have size to pick up the SG on defense

Help us understand what you mean by good orchestrator . Some particular players.

martin wrote:

Panos wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Panos wrote:Btw, for the record, I'd trade Brunson before Randle for a PG that gets more teammates involved.

It would be stupid to trade Brunson. His contract is fantastic for his production. We need more efficent scorers like Brunson. The biggest issue on the roster is RJ Barrett. You can't have someone that inefficent chucking 20 shots.

By traditional stats, he's one of the top 5 most clutch players in the league. And as you pointed out, on a very reasonable contract. Im surprised anyone wants to trade him already. Thats pretty fast considering.

I never said i wanted to trade him. I said I'd trade him sooner than Randle specifically if we could get a good orchestrator.
I'm also fine getting a good orchestrator and moving JB to off guard. But he's have to have size to pick up the SG on defense

Help us understand what you mean by good orchestrator . Some particular players.

Here are some passes by good orchestrators. I feel that JB is not creative (or a good enough passer?) about getting others easy baskets. I fell that he either goes for his own and passes if he gets in trouble, or makes a simple pass where the recipient still has to work for it. He should be setting up like 3 or more alley oops a game with MitchRob and Jericho ? Both IQ and Grimes seem to have a better court vision.

Not specifically advocating trading for any of these guys below, but just illustrating what I mean by orchestrators. One of them is Jrue Holiday passing to our very own Julius Randle. Sure I'd love to have Halliburton NEXT to JB and JR, but not sure how to make that happen. Is there a package including RJ that nets us Halliburton?

Panos wrote:

martin wrote:

Panos wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Panos wrote:Btw, for the record, I'd trade Brunson before Randle for a PG that gets more teammates involved.

It would be stupid to trade Brunson. His contract is fantastic for his production. We need more efficent scorers like Brunson. The biggest issue on the roster is RJ Barrett. You can't have someone that inefficent chucking 20 shots.

By traditional stats, he's one of the top 5 most clutch players in the league. And as you pointed out, on a very reasonable contract. Im surprised anyone wants to trade him already. Thats pretty fast considering.

I never said i wanted to trade him. I said I'd trade him sooner than Randle specifically if we could get a good orchestrator.
I'm also fine getting a good orchestrator and moving JB to off guard. But he's have to have size to pick up the SG on defense

Help us understand what you mean by good orchestrator . Some particular players.

Here are some passes by good orchestrators. I feel that JB is not creative (or a good enough passer?) about getting others easy baskets. I fell that he either goes for his own and passes if he gets in trouble, or makes a simple pass where the recipient still has to work for it. He should be setting up like 3 or more alley oops a game with MitchRob and Jericho ? Both IQ and Grimes seem to have a better court vision.

Not specifically advocating trading for any of these guys below, but just illustrating what I mean by orchestrators. One of them is Jrue Holiday passing to our very own Julius Randle. Sure I'd love to have Halliburton NEXT to JB and JR, but not sure how to make that happen. Is there a package including RJ that nets us Halliburton?

Martin, I'm curious your thoughts about this. Do you not think that this team could thrive if we had someone with better vision looking to get others involved as primary ballhandler and let JB focus on scoring (which is his main focus now).

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-...

Brunson does not have a pretty video montage of assists but he sits 21st in the NBA. Funny Simmons is 16th?
That said, the pure distributer comes in different shapes and sizes. Doncia and Jokic are untraditional assist leaders.
Being the best shooter on the team prevents one from getting an assist? If your mates are not good shooters, the assists are limited.
I find that there are spurts where Randle and RJ make great plays but its inconsistent. Grimes missing easy buckets of late is not helping.
Winning tells the tale of the tape best.
Panos, JB in his first half season as starter with the role of primary floor QB. I would hope as time goes on all things improve!

Panos wrote:

martin wrote:

Panos wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Panos wrote:Btw, for the record, I'd trade Brunson before Randle for a PG that gets more teammates involved.

It would be stupid to trade Brunson. His contract is fantastic for his production. We need more efficent scorers like Brunson. The biggest issue on the roster is RJ Barrett. You can't have someone that inefficent chucking 20 shots.

By traditional stats, he's one of the top 5 most clutch players in the league. And as you pointed out, on a very reasonable contract. Im surprised anyone wants to trade him already. Thats pretty fast considering.

I never said i wanted to trade him. I said I'd trade him sooner than Randle specifically if we could get a good orchestrator.
I'm also fine getting a good orchestrator and moving JB to off guard. But he's have to have size to pick up the SG on defense

Help us understand what you mean by good orchestrator . Some particular players.

Here are some passes by good orchestrators. I feel that JB is not creative (or a good enough passer?) about getting others easy baskets. I fell that he either goes for his own and passes if he gets in trouble, or makes a simple pass where the recipient still has to work for it. He should be setting up like 3 or more alley oops a game with MitchRob and Jericho ? Both IQ and Grimes seem to have a better court vision.

Not specifically advocating trading for any of these guys below, but just illustrating what I mean by orchestrators. One of them is Jrue Holiday passing to our very own Julius Randle. Sure I'd love to have Halliburton NEXT to JB and JR, but not sure how to make that happen. Is there a package including RJ that nets us Halliburton?

Started a thread about Brunson not being a TRUE PG earlier in the season.
Stated that fans who are expecting to see JB facilitate will be disappointed as he is a shoot first PG.
However, also stated how impressed I was with his efficiency, skill and ability to score.
For me, Randle needs JB and vice versa.
The Knicks need his clutch play and ability to score at the end of games.
See no reason to trade someone who has shown so much just because he still needs to grow as a facilitator.
Disagree that we need that more than what JB has provided.
Do feel that with JB, RJ and JR, we may need to change one due to their similar playing styles.
Or hope they ALL improve their team play and making others better. Which I think is possible.

Panos wrote:Martin, I'm curious your thoughts about this. Do you not think that this team could thrive if we had someone with better vision looking to get others involved as primary ballhandler and let JB focus on scoring (which is his main focus now).

I don't think Brunson's main focus is scoring; I do think it is a strength of his. I do think he has a ton of room to grow in terms of passing.

For me, main job of the PG is to navigate the game for his team. Score when you need to, pass when you need to, manage all the time. Slow down or make sure you push the ball in transition when you need to, know who is hot, who needs a shot, know who the weakest defender or part of defense is. PG'ing is all of those things.

One of the easiest ways to get going as a player is to lean on your strengths. Brunson still figuring out how to be a starter and be a focus of a defense no less score and pass and manage, so scoring may come first.

Knicks are a young team that doesn't move and cut without ball very well. Mitch has zero clue what he is doing on offense, same with Sims. With a combo of guys figuring out where and when to move AND Brunson looking for them, I'd guess you will eventually see a better run offense (assists from Brunson and better eFG% from players). It's why the Knicks have a simple offense and why they run the standard NBA go-to PnR sets with variations on each type. Keeping things simple and pretty much the same with Brunson and IQ is also helpful for the rest of the team; not creative but you are trying to get the other guys knowing their spots and what actions and options to get to. Even GS wasn't fluid in the first years of when their main player were together, and they are much more talented.

It's wild to me that some fans suggest Thibs run a more creative offense. Why? He has young players who barely know regular NBA offenses enough and some of them aren't very smart offensively or are limited offensively. So why would you introduce a level of creativity or something like a movement offense? That doesn't make sense to me in the least.

Finding the exact type of guy you may be referring to is not easy, no less trading for one; it's one thing to say you'd trade Brunson for a PG with better vision - it's a nice thought - but not really realistic? Who is that player? I don't think Ben Simmons is, especially when you consider his lack of shooting. Is Jrue that type of passer? I don't watch him much. Prime Nash aint here and even he took many many years to figure out how to do it and a partner to pass to.

Every team would thrive with someone with better vision looking to get others involved, but really only a few teams have a super solid PG that can handle scoring, passing, and managing all at a high level.

I'll live with Brunson and watch it grow cause I think he has a ton of passing potential.

Brunson just doesn’t look to pass it’s not that he’s not a good passer.

Haliburton would have changed the entire complexion of this team. I just don’t know how the front office didn’t see that and couldn’t understand that Obi is not a lottery talent without a guy that’s spoon feeding him the ball.

Same goes for Mitch.

Our guards miss these guys constantly. A pg always gets Grimes the ball in rhythm. Thibs needs to at least try to run a couple plays going forward, can keep letting the big three pound the ball all night long.

JB is 14th amung PG's in assists, 21st in nba over all.

1 Tyrese Haliburton Indiana Pacers PG 10.23
2 Trae Young Atlanta Hawks PG 9.89
5 Ja Morant Memphis Grizzlies PG 8.24
6 Darius Garland Cleveland Cavaliers PG 8.19
7 Mike Conley Utah Jazz PG 7.58
8 Russell WestbrookLos Angeles Lakers PG 7.47
9 Jrue Holiday Milwaukee Bucks PG 7.33
10 Damian Lillard Portland Trail Blazers PG 7.32
12 Marcus Smart Boston Celtics PG 7.17
15 Fred VanVleet Toronto Raptors PG 6.45
18 Stephen Curry Golden State Warriors PG 6.38
19 Tre Jones San Antonio Spurs PG 6.33
20 D'Angelo RussellMinnesota Timberwolves PG 6.24
21 Jalen Brunson New York Knicks PG 6.21
22 De'Aaron Fox Sacramento Kings PG 6.11
23 Dejounte Murray Atlanta Hawks PG 6.07
25 Killian Hayes Detroit Pistons PG 5.74
29 Shai Gilgeous-Alexander Oklahoma ThunderPG 5.62
30 Kyle Lowry Miami Heat PG 5.43
31 Spencer Dinwiddie Dallas MavericksPG 5.38
32 Monte Morris Washington Wizards PG 5.31
34 Kyrie Irving Brooklyn Nets PG 5.26
36 Terry Rozier Charlotte Hornets PG 5.15
37 T.J. McConnell Indiana Pacers PG 5.12
42 Tyus Jones Memphis Grizzlies PG 4.72
44 Jaden Ivey Detroit Pistons PG 4.51
48 Jordan Clarkson Utah Jazz PG 4.25
51 Zach LaVine Chicago Bulls PG 4.11
54 Andrew Nembhard Indiana Pacers PG 4.02
60 Dennis Schroder Los Angeles Lakers PG 3.81
64 Bruce Brown Denver Nuggets PG 3.61
67 Reggie Jackson Los Angeles Clippers PG 3.57
70 Derrick White Boston Celtics PG 3.43
74 Shake Milton Philadelphia 76ers PG 3.27
75 Cory Joseph Detroit Pistons PG 3.25
79 Jose Alvarado New Orleans Pelicans PG 3.18
82 Bones Hyland Denver Nuggets PG 3.02
86 De'Anthony MeltonPhiladelphia 76ers PG 2.91
87 Goran Dragic Chicago Bulls PG 2.84
93 Collin Sexton Utah Jazz PG 2.74
95 Jordan Goodwin Washington Wizards PG 2.69
97 Jevon Carter Milwaukee Bucks PG 2.68

How did this become a trade Brunson thread? Are you guys off your rocker? Am I missing something?

ramtour420 wrote:How did this become a trade Brunson thread? Are you guys off your rocker? Am I missing something?

TL/DR?

martin wrote:

Panos wrote:Martin, I'm curious your thoughts about this. Do you not think that this team could thrive if we had someone with better vision looking to get others involved as primary ballhandler and let JB focus on scoring (which is his main focus now).

I don't think Brunson's main focus is scoring; I do think it is a strength of his. I do think he has a ton of room to grow in terms of passing.

For me, main job of the PG is to navigate the game for his team. Score when you need to, pass when you need to, manage all the time. Slow down or make sure you push the ball in transition when you need to, know who is hot, who needs a shot, know who the weakest defender or part of defense is. PG'ing is all of those things.

One of the easiest ways to get going as a player is to lean on your strengths. Brunson still figuring out how to be a starter and be a focus of a defense no less score and pass and manage, so scoring may come first.

Knicks are a young team that doesn't move and cut without ball very well. Mitch has zero clue what he is doing on offense, same with Sims. With a combo of guys figuring out where and when to move AND Brunson looking for them, I'd guess you will eventually see a better run offense (assists from Brunson and better eFG% from players). It's why the Knicks have a simple offense and why they run the standard NBA go-to PnR sets with variations on each type. Keeping things simple and pretty much the same with Brunson and IQ is also helpful for the rest of the team; not creative but you are trying to get the other guys knowing their spots and what actions and options to get to. Even GS wasn't fluid in the first years of when their main player were together, and they are much more talented.

It's wild to me that some fans suggest Thibs run a more creative offense. Why? He has young players who barely know regular NBA offenses enough and some of them aren't very smart offensively or are limited offensively. So why would you introduce a level of creativity or something like a movement offense? That doesn't make sense to me in the least.

Finding the exact type of guy you may be referring to is not easy, no less trading for one; it's one thing to say you'd trade Brunson for a PG with better vision - it's a nice thought - but not really realistic? Who is that player? I don't think Ben Simmons is, especially when you consider his lack of shooting. Is Jrue that type of passer? I don't watch him much. Prime Nash aint here and even he took many many years to figure out how to do it and a partner to pass to.

Every team would thrive with someone with better vision looking to get others involved, but really only a few teams have a super solid PG that can handle scoring, passing, and managing all at a high level.

I'll live with Brunson and watch it grow cause I think he has a ton of passing potential.

Appreciate your perspective. I guess by the time I wrote the lastest post, I convinced myself that we'd be best served by putting a good passer *next to* JB. Could be potent. No, I don't know who that would be. Just ideally speaking.