https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/commen...For the guys who think this is Thibs scheming take a look at that video. The issue isnt Thibs
These guys need to play better. They all look at the tape. Not loving the amount of times Jules get caught loafing 
I would really hoping he would turn it around. Its early but that train seems to be going the wrong way
Right, plus we already knew the schemes were OK when they were in top 5 and top 10 in defensive efficiency over past 2 years and it's pretty much exactly the same.
I'd like to ask all of the "Thibs defensive schemes are not good" to help me understand where you draw the line between players not doing their job and schemes not working?
Thibs obviously needs to shore this up but the Knicks players have got to get their head out of their asses.
fishmike wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/commen...
For the guys who think this is Thibs scheming take a look at that video. The issue isnt ThibsThese guys need to play better. They all look at the tape. Not loving the amount of times Jules get caught loafing I would really hoping he would turn it around. Its early but that train seems to be going the wrong way
fishmike wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/commen...
For the guys who think this is Thibs scheming take a look at that video. The issue isnt ThibsThese guys need to play better. They all look at the tape. Not loving the amount of times Jules get caught loafing I would really hoping he would turn it around. Its early but that train seems to be going the wrong way
Breakdown seems to be geared towards blaming Randle.
Maybe failing to mention that a PF and Center also have the responsibility to stop penetration.
Or that Wings are the rotational pieces to get out to threes and cover a high side switch?
Feel Schemes also dictate the PF and C responsibilities. Do we know what those were?
Seems to me like it was a drop low for drive and cover scheme both Hart and JR were on.
Also, several of the open threes were off kick outs from drives. Did film breakdown expect the 4 and 5 to stop both the drive and the kick out?
Maybe this is all just my player side talking.
The fact Boston was driving and kicking out emphasizes their good offense rather than our bad defense. That is why they are so good. Going low to high has always been hard to defend. Reason why so many good offensive coaches emphasize the approach. Same goes for attacking the weak side with good ball rotation and extra passing. Which was what Boston did on many of the other open threes. Can the Knicks, including Randle, get better at covering kick outs, switching in picks and ball rotation? Sure. But let's not make it all about the Knicks without factoring in how well Boston moved the ball and most importantly hit open shots.
martin wrote:Right, plus we already knew the schemes were OK when they were in top 5 and top 10 in defensive efficiency over past 2 years and it's pretty much exactly the same.I'd like to ask all of the "Thibs defensive schemes are not good" to help me understand where you draw the line between players not doing their job and schemes not working?
Thibs obviously needs to shore this up but the Knicks players have got to get their head out of their asses.
fishmike wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/commen...
For the guys who think this is Thibs scheming take a look at that video. The issue isnt ThibsThese guys need to play better. They all look at the tape. Not loving the amount of times Jules get caught loafing I would really hoping he would turn it around. Its early but that train seems to be going the wrong way
Talking about the effectiveness of defensive schemes the previous two years is irrelevant. One of the things good coaches have to do is determine if they have the right personal to implement a specific scheme. Good coaches can make that determination and make adjustments within a game.
Imho, In order for a team to shoot as well as Boston did you have to have:
1. Excellent ball movement and penetration.
2. Inadequate defensive rotations and lack of player communication.
3. Coach not making proper scheme/personal adjustments.
4. Extreme high level shot making.
Or we can just blame ONE guy.
martin wrote:Right, plus we already knew the schemes were OK when they were in top 5 and top 10 in defensive efficiency over past 2 years and it's pretty much exactly the same.I'd like to ask all of the "Thibs defensive schemes are not good" to help me understand where you draw the line between players not doing their job and schemes not working?
Thibs obviously needs to shore this up but the Knicks players have got to get their head out of their asses.
fishmike wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/commen...
For the guys who think this is Thibs scheming take a look at that video. The issue isnt ThibsThese guys need to play better. They all look at the tape. Not loving the amount of times Jules get caught loafing I would really hoping he would turn it around. Its early but that train seems to be going the wrong way
The only problem I had/have with Thibs scheme is I think the weakside defenders overcommit on penetration. Other than that, most of the NBA does most of the same things. With that said, the players have to take much of the blame as well.
What stands out the most is seeing guys that's been with Thibs for 3 pre-season training camps and are still getting confused on switches and are not communicating...To see Randle still not hustling, failing to get back because he's complaining and ultimately, camping out under the back to pad his rebound stats. This is just another reason why I am in the front row of bandwagon #TradeRandle (Big Daddy G is definitely the driver). As inefficient as he is, and as much as he tends to ball-stop and high jack the offense, his defense can be just as bad if not worse.
Vs Celts, the perimeter d was soft but if we go out they penetrate. They shot 51% from out there? If so, teams usually win.
Uptown wrote:The only problem I had/have with Thibs scheme is I think the weakside defenders overcommit on penetration. Other than that, most of the NBA does most of the same things. With that said, the players have to take much of the blame as well. What stands out the most is seeing guys that's been with Thibs for 3 pre-season training camps and are still getting confused on switches and are not communicating...To see Randle still not hustling, failing to get back because he's complaining and ultimately, camping out under the back to pad his rebound stats. This is just another reason why I am in the front row of bandwagon #TradeRandle (Big Daddy G is definitely the driver). As inefficient as he is, and as much as he tends to ball-stop and high jack the offense, his defense can be just as bad if not worse.
So then it looks that before we fire Thibs, we should get rid of Randle and see how it goes? Here is how it might work:
1) Force feed Randle the ball for the next 15-20 games to get his scoring average to above 20. Do it win or lose.
2) With his trade value improved, ship him out, whether for a bag of potatoes, a Dray or anything else
3) If we nosedive without him, get Wembanyama or another stud in the draft.
4) If we play better without him, maybe we use some of the extra salary cap flex to get another decent front court player.
fishmike wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/commen...
For the guys who think this is Thibs scheming take a look at that video. The issue isnt ThibsThese guys need to play better. They all look at the tape. Not loving the amount of times Jules get caught loafing I would really hoping he would turn it around. Its early but that train seems to be going the wrong way
This is what is called miss direction. Because Randle is a bad defender does not mean Thibs Schemes is also not a problem. The 2 are not mutually exclusive. Crap like this won't work on me because I been complaining about the same issues for going on 3 years in the game threads. It happens when Randle is out there and it happens when he is not out there. The same for Evan. People in this thread know I am not a Randle lover but I will not allow you to push it all off on him and Evan when the same stuff happen if they are on the court or not.
So to show how an actual good defending team deals with weakside defenders I will repurpose a video that has 4 defensive positions for the Bucks. The first 3 works to show their weakside defender. The 4th one does not because there is no one in the corner. This video is from the Bucks game and look at where their weakside defender is vs ours. In all 3 plays in the video they are in a position where they can play the passing lane or recover if the bailout pass is attempted. They are playing it this way even though we mostly suck at shooting 3's. When our weakside defense in touching the paint the only option they have is to help on the drive or to scramble after the pass is made and by the time that happens they already lost.
Yall made me have to learn how to do the video thing on twitter. Look at this play I clipped. It perfectly shows the issues I have with our defense. The weakside defender is neither Randle or Evan so you can't blame everything on him. Look at what Obi does this play and then look at the outcome. Compare to how much harder of a pass that would have been with how the Bucks weakside defender stands at and how much closer to the shooter he would have been. Like usual the weakside defender did not bother the player with the ball because by definition they are on the other side of the court. If Hauser missed that shot it would have counted as a good defensive possession. Who in their right mind think that was a good possession? That is where some stats don't tell the whole story without context. So when you throw out top 5 defense stats when they also gave up something like top 5 open shots that just tells me they were lucky that other teams missed.
Clean wrote:fishmike wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/commen...
For the guys who think this is Thibs scheming take a look at that video. The issue isnt ThibsThese guys need to play better. They all look at the tape. Not loving the amount of times Jules get caught loafing I would really hoping he would turn it around. Its early but that train seems to be going the wrong way
This is what is called miss direction. Because Randle is a bad defender does not mean Thibs Schemes is also not a problem. The 2 are not mutually exclusive. Crap like this won't work on me because I been complaining about the same issues for going on 3 years in the game threads. It happens when Randle is out there and it happens when he is not out there. The same for Evan. People in this thread know I am not a Randle lover but I will not allow you to push it all off on him and Evan when the same stuff happen if they are on the court or not.
So to show how an actual good defending team deals with weakside defenders I will repurpose a video that has 4 defensive positions for the Bucks. The first 3 works to show their weakside defender. The 4th one does not because there is no one in the corner. This video is from the Bucks game and look at where their weakside defender is vs ours. In all 3 plays in the video they are in a position where they can play the passing lane or recover if the bailout pass is attempted. They are playing it this way even though we mostly suck at shooting 3's. When our weakside defense in touching the paint the only option they have is to help on the drive or to scramble after the pass is made and by the time that happens they already lost.
Yall made me have to learn how to do the video thing on twitter. Look at this play I clipped. It perfectly shows the issues I have with our defense. The weakside defender is neither Randle or Evan so you can't blame everything on him. Look at what Obi does this play and then look at the outcome. Compare to how much harder of a pass that would have been with how the Bucks weakside defender stands at and how much closer to the shooter he would have been. Like usual the weakside defender did not bother the player with the ball because by definition they are on the other side of the court. If Hauser missed that shot it would have counted as a good defensive possession. Who in their right mind think that was a good possession? That is where some stats don't tell the whole story without context. So when you throw out top 5 defense stats when they also gave up something like top 5 open shots that just tells me they were lucky that other teams missed.
Some good point. How does this relate to how the Knicks should have played Boston?
Bucks basically did what Knicks did against Celts. Meaning dropped their bigs off picks. (As seen in first video posted) Big difference is that we had NO one as effective from three as the Celts do. MR, RJ, Hart and Brunson are not the same as Brown, Tatum, Smart and Hauser. They would have torn apart the Bucks drop down defense as well.
For those blaming Randle, look at the bigs on the Bucks and ask yourself if they were getting out to threes after dropping? Bucks did not on Brunson or RJ in the video.
HofstraBBall wrote:
Some good point. One problem for me is that the Knicks are not Boston.
Additionally, Bucks basically did what Knicks did against Celts. Meaning dropped their bigs off picks. (As seen in first video posted) Big difference is that we had NO one as effective from three as the Celts do. MR, Hart and Brunson are not the same as Brown, Tatum, Smart and Hauser. They would have torn apart the Bucks drop down defense as well.
For those blaming Randle, look at the bigs on the Bucks and ask yourself if they would be getting out to threes after dropping? Bucks did not on Brunson.
I am guessing you are not getting my issue. Big being dropping back after picks are not what I am talking about here. The weakside defender is usually on the corner 3 on the opposite side of the court from where the ball is. So they have nothing to do with drop coverage on screens. That would be a strongside defender. The comparison between the two styles would be what Obi is doing vs what Bobby Portis is doing. I am not saying Thibs is doing everything wrong on defense but if you have a weak link in the chain it destroys everything. How we do weakside defenders is the weak link that destroys our defense. The bailout pass is always there and once that happen the shot from it is almost always open.
Clean wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:
Some good point. One problem for me is that the Knicks are not Boston.
Additionally, Bucks basically did what Knicks did against Celts. Meaning dropped their bigs off picks. (As seen in first video posted) Big difference is that we had NO one as effective from three as the Celts do. MR, Hart and Brunson are not the same as Brown, Tatum, Smart and Hauser. They would have torn apart the Bucks drop down defense as well.
For those blaming Randle, look at the bigs on the Bucks and ask yourself if they would be getting out to threes after dropping? Bucks did not on Brunson.
I am guessing you are not getting my issue. Big being dropping back after picks are not what I am talking about here. The weakside defender is usually on the corner 3 on the opposite side of the court from where the ball is. So they have nothing to do with drop coverage on screens. That would be a strongside defender. The comparison between the two styles would be what Obi is doing vs what Bobby Portis is doing.
You really think in the Obi clip Thibs scheme calls for him to leave Hauser wide open for what amounts to a corner 3?
Or maybe just that Obi made a poor decision to drop or just as likely he wanted to drop/switch to defend the bigger guy and IQ was supposed to rotate out but one of the guys didn’t communicate?
I mean you do make a solid case for why Obi continues to get the quick hook on really egregious defensive plays and why Thibs is hesitant to pair Obi and Randles cause both are like chickens with their heads cut off trying to play defense.
When RJ has a 1 on 3 breakaway by himself and he puts his head down and just barrels into the defenders for a TO do you think to yourself that the offensive scheme is bad?
What the fuck is going on?
martin wrote:Clean wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:
Some good point. One problem for me is that the Knicks are not Boston.
Additionally, Bucks basically did what Knicks did against Celts. Meaning dropped their bigs off picks. (As seen in first video posted) Big difference is that we had NO one as effective from three as the Celts do. MR, Hart and Brunson are not the same as Brown, Tatum, Smart and Hauser. They would have torn apart the Bucks drop down defense as well.
For those blaming Randle, look at the bigs on the Bucks and ask yourself if they would be getting out to threes after dropping? Bucks did not on Brunson.
I am guessing you are not getting my issue. Big being dropping back after picks are not what I am talking about here. The weakside defender is usually on the corner 3 on the opposite side of the court from where the ball is. So they have nothing to do with drop coverage on screens. That would be a strongside defender. The comparison between the two styles would be what Obi is doing vs what Bobby Portis is doing.
You really think in the Obi clip Thibs scheme calls for him to leave Hauser wide open for what amounts to a corner 3?
Or maybe just that Obi made a poor decision to drop or just as likely he wanted to drop/switch to defend the bigger guy and IQ was supposed to rotate out but one of the guys didn’t communicate?
I mean you do make a solid case for why Obi continues to get the quick hook on really egregious defensive plays and why Thibs is hesitant to pair Obi and Randles cause both are like chickens with their heads cut off trying to play defense.
Bro, this has been happening for going on 3 years. Go back to that I think the hornets game thread. I made it a point to point out every time the weakside defender doing this costed us by the opponent making an open 3. Like I have said multiple times whoever is the weakside defenders plays it this way. If you want to go back after that play and watch Thibs on the next possession. He is not even angry and you know how much he yells at Obi when he makes a defensive mistake. Yall don't have to believe me. Yall can go back to our previous games and watch how many of the Hornets open shots came off that mistake or that guy who killed us in the Grizz game that I never heard of before. I would hope Thibs would fix the problem after 2 teams break records for 3pt shooting on us but I am not holding my breath waiting for it. So just pay a little closer attention to the weakside defenders in future games.
martin wrote:When RJ has a 1 on 3 breakaway by himself and he puts his head down and just barrels into the defenders for a TO do you think to yourself that the offensive scheme is bad?What the fuck is going on?
Since when was a fast break ever an offensive scheme? The whole point of a fast break is to score before everything is settled and offensive /defensives schemes are put into place. You might have to come up with a different analogy because that one does not work.
Clean wrote:martin wrote:Clean wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:
Some good point. One problem for me is that the Knicks are not Boston.
Additionally, Bucks basically did what Knicks did against Celts. Meaning dropped their bigs off picks. (As seen in first video posted) Big difference is that we had NO one as effective from three as the Celts do. MR, Hart and Brunson are not the same as Brown, Tatum, Smart and Hauser. They would have torn apart the Bucks drop down defense as well.
For those blaming Randle, look at the bigs on the Bucks and ask yourself if they would be getting out to threes after dropping? Bucks did not on Brunson.
I am guessing you are not getting my issue. Big being dropping back after picks are not what I am talking about here. The weakside defender is usually on the corner 3 on the opposite side of the court from where the ball is. So they have nothing to do with drop coverage on screens. That would be a strongside defender. The comparison between the two styles would be what Obi is doing vs what Bobby Portis is doing.
You really think in the Obi clip Thibs scheme calls for him to leave Hauser wide open for what amounts to a corner 3?
Or maybe just that Obi made a poor decision to drop or just as likely he wanted to drop/switch to defend the bigger guy and IQ was supposed to rotate out but one of the guys didn’t communicate?
I mean you do make a solid case for why Obi continues to get the quick hook on really egregious defensive plays and why Thibs is hesitant to pair Obi and Randles cause both are like chickens with their heads cut off trying to play defense.
Bro, this has been happening for going on 3 years. Go back to that I think the hornets game thread. I made it a point to point out every time the weakside defender doing this costed us by the opponent making an open 3. Like I have said multiple times whoever is the weakside defenders plays it this way. If you want to go back after that play and watch Thibs on the next possession. He is not even angry and you know how much he yells at Obi when he makes a defensive mistake. Yall don't have to believe me. Yall can go back to our previous games and watch how many of the Hornets open shots came off that mistake or that guy who killed us in the Grizz game that I never heard of before. I would hope Thibs would fix the problem after 2 teams break records for 3pt shooting on us but I am not holding my breath waiting for it. So just pay a little closer attention to the weakside defenders in future games.
First, Thibs has coached 2 years and a few games.
So say it differently: because you can point to some clips where a bad defender makes a bad choice, you think this is what Thibs is teaching this team? That’s what the scheme is?
You think Knicks schemes includes leaving guys that wide open on the weak side and Obi is just doing what he us told? But when guys like Grimes and IQ and McBride are flying around the floor and not dropping too far off, you think that what the scene is NOT calling for?
OK as an experiment I said let me try to find a defensive highlight video from Thibs COTY year with the Bulls. I could not find a defensive highlight video but the very first highlight video I open and this is what I see.
Deng made an amazing play but you can see here the defensive principles are still the same. Both weakside defenders are deep in the paint.
We already know Randle and Obi go too deep into the paint as weakside defenders. So after a quick skim through the 1st quarter alone I got Hart, Rose and Cam doing it. If this is not a defensive scheme it seems everyone on the team is getting it wrong. Seems like something a defensive coach should have fixed.
martin wrote:Clean wrote:martin wrote:Clean wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:
Some good point. One problem for me is that the Knicks are not Boston.
Additionally, Bucks basically did what Knicks did against Celts. Meaning dropped their bigs off picks. (As seen in first video posted) Big difference is that we had NO one as effective from three as the Celts do. MR, Hart and Brunson are not the same as Brown, Tatum, Smart and Hauser. They would have torn apart the Bucks drop down defense as well.
For those blaming Randle, look at the bigs on the Bucks and ask yourself if they would be getting out to threes after dropping? Bucks did not on Brunson.
I am guessing you are not getting my issue. Big being dropping back after picks are not what I am talking about here. The weakside defender is usually on the corner 3 on the opposite side of the court from where the ball is. So they have nothing to do with drop coverage on screens. That would be a strongside defender. The comparison between the two styles would be what Obi is doing vs what Bobby Portis is doing.
You really think in the Obi clip Thibs scheme calls for him to leave Hauser wide open for what amounts to a corner 3?
Or maybe just that Obi made a poor decision to drop or just as likely he wanted to drop/switch to defend the bigger guy and IQ was supposed to rotate out but one of the guys didn’t communicate?
I mean you do make a solid case for why Obi continues to get the quick hook on really egregious defensive plays and why Thibs is hesitant to pair Obi and Randles cause both are like chickens with their heads cut off trying to play defense.
Bro, this has been happening for going on 3 years. Go back to that I think the hornets game thread. I made it a point to point out every time the weakside defender doing this costed us by the opponent making an open 3. Like I have said multiple times whoever is the weakside defenders plays it this way. If you want to go back after that play and watch Thibs on the next possession. He is not even angry and you know how much he yells at Obi when he makes a defensive mistake. Yall don't have to believe me. Yall can go back to our previous games and watch how many of the Hornets open shots came off that mistake or that guy who killed us in the Grizz game that I never heard of before. I would hope Thibs would fix the problem after 2 teams break records for 3pt shooting on us but I am not holding my breath waiting for it. So just pay a little closer attention to the weakside defenders in future games.
First, Thibs has coached 2 years and a few games.
So say it differently: because you can point to some clips where a bad defender makes a bad choice, you think this is what Thibs is teaching this team? That’s what the scheme is?
You think Knicks schemes includes leaving guys that wide open on the weak side and Obi is just doing what he us told? But when guys like Grimes and IQ and McBride are flying around the floor and not dropping too far off, you think that what the scene is NOT calling for?
Thibs was hired On July 30th 2020.
So he coached us in 2020 because the season starts in November.
Then he coached us in 2021.
He is now coaching us in 2022.
You might calculate it differently but that is how I do it. I know it has not been 3 full calendar years. That is the reason why I said going on 3 years instead of 3 years. I don't even know why you made a specific point about this.
Clean wrote:martin wrote:Clean wrote:martin wrote:Clean wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:
Some good point. One problem for me is that the Knicks are not Boston.
Additionally, Bucks basically did what Knicks did against Celts. Meaning dropped their bigs off picks. (As seen in first video posted) Big difference is that we had NO one as effective from three as the Celts do. MR, Hart and Brunson are not the same as Brown, Tatum, Smart and Hauser. They would have torn apart the Bucks drop down defense as well.
For those blaming Randle, look at the bigs on the Bucks and ask yourself if they would be getting out to threes after dropping? Bucks did not on Brunson.
I am guessing you are not getting my issue. Big being dropping back after picks are not what I am talking about here. The weakside defender is usually on the corner 3 on the opposite side of the court from where the ball is. So they have nothing to do with drop coverage on screens. That would be a strongside defender. The comparison between the two styles would be what Obi is doing vs what Bobby Portis is doing.
You really think in the Obi clip Thibs scheme calls for him to leave Hauser wide open for what amounts to a corner 3?
Or maybe just that Obi made a poor decision to drop or just as likely he wanted to drop/switch to defend the bigger guy and IQ was supposed to rotate out but one of the guys didn’t communicate?
I mean you do make a solid case for why Obi continues to get the quick hook on really egregious defensive plays and why Thibs is hesitant to pair Obi and Randles cause both are like chickens with their heads cut off trying to play defense.
Bro, this has been happening for going on 3 years. Go back to that I think the hornets game thread. I made it a point to point out every time the weakside defender doing this costed us by the opponent making an open 3. Like I have said multiple times whoever is the weakside defenders plays it this way. If you want to go back after that play and watch Thibs on the next possession. He is not even angry and you know how much he yells at Obi when he makes a defensive mistake. Yall don't have to believe me. Yall can go back to our previous games and watch how many of the Hornets open shots came off that mistake or that guy who killed us in the Grizz game that I never heard of before. I would hope Thibs would fix the problem after 2 teams break records for 3pt shooting on us but I am not holding my breath waiting for it. So just pay a little closer attention to the weakside defenders in future games.
First, Thibs has coached 2 years and a few games.
So say it differently: because you can point to some clips where a bad defender makes a bad choice, you think this is what Thibs is teaching this team? That’s what the scheme is?
You think Knicks schemes includes leaving guys that wide open on the weak side and Obi is just doing what he us told? But when guys like Grimes and IQ and McBride are flying around the floor and not dropping too far off, you think that what the scene is NOT calling for?
Thibs was hired On July 30th 2020.
So he coached us in 2020 because the season starts in November.
Then he coached us in 2021.
He is now coaching us in 2022.
You might calculate it differently but that is how I do it. I know it has not been 3 full calendar years. That is the reason why I said going on 3 years instead of 3 years. I don't even know why you made a specific point about this.
Cause apparently everyone but you think in terms of seasons = years.
Don’t be that daft.
Clean wrote:We already know Randle and Obi go too deep into the paint as weakside defenders. So after a quick skim through the 1st quarter alone I got Hart, Rose and Cam doing it. If this is not a defensive scheme it seems everyone on the team is getting it wrong. Seems like something a defensive coach should have fixed.
Every single team gets corner 3 shots every single game of the season. Knicks certainly had a super stinker.
I’m still flabbergasted that you think one of the best defensive coaches in the league never thought to account for guys dropping down too far when on the weak side - and is indeed part of his scheme - but someone like yourself could watch a few clips and understand that it’s not correct.
On offense Thibs wants rim shots and corner 3s but it never occurred to him that his team needed to guard those same shots.
Thibs is a fucking idiot!
