Knicks · Fire Thibs (page 2)

fitzfarm wrote:I hate to agree with this but we won’t become better with him… his arrogance to never adjust the game plan is the reason he never won a chip and never will. When your team scores 130+ points you should never loose the game

I mean he benched 3 starters... I mean just say "I dont like Thibs" why make up a narrative that's bullshit? Nalod will fact check you

Thibs has a lot of work to do with the identity of this team. Brunson has big defensive issues. The team defense has not been good and the team offense has been meh... thus 6-7

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I hate to agree with this but we won’t become better with him… his arrogance to never adjust the game plan is the reason he never won a chip and never will. When your team scores 130+ points you should never loose the game

I mean he benched 3 starters... I mean just say "I dont like Thibs" why make up a narrative that's bullshit? Nalod will fact check you

Thibs has a lot of work to do with the identity of this team. Brunson has big defensive issues. The team defense has not been good and the team offense has been meh... thus 6-7

but here is what I can't understand. Randle and RJ can shoot and run amok with low efficiency shots/play, but Obi can't get time and is our best 3pt shooter.

He won't play Obi and Randle together, like at all! Despite what another team might do that you should counter with a small line up.

And on the non-defense this year- either guys are not getting it or Thibs is not devising a good plan on D- and if guys aren't getting it, why? Either they are dumb or tuning out Thibs.

what am I missing?

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I hate to agree with this but we won’t become better with him… his arrogance to never adjust the game plan is the reason he never won a chip and never will. When your team scores 130+ points you should never loose the game

I mean he benched 3 starters... I mean just say "I dont like Thibs" why make up a narrative that's bullshit? Nalod will fact check you

Thibs has a lot of work to do with the identity of this team. Brunson has big defensive issues. The team defense has not been good and the team offense has been meh... thus 6-7

but here is what I can't understand. Randle and RJ can shoot and run amok with low efficiency shots/play, but Obi can't get time and is our best 3pt shooter.

He won't play Obi and Randle together, like at all! Despite what another team might do that you should counter with a small line up.

And on the non-defense this year- either guys are not getting it or Thibs is not devising a good plan on D- and if guys aren't getting it, why? Either they are dumb or tuning out Thibs.

what am I missing?

You aren't missing anything as far as I am concerned. A coach either:

a) Counters a small lineup with a small lineup of his own. No advantage and no disadvantage.
b) Counters a small lineup with a large lineup. This strategy involves giving the other team an advantage on the wing BUT in turn punishing them with plays inside where they cannot contain our bigs.
We did neither. We gave OKC an advantage on the wing AND we ran zero plays for the our bigs. Our bigs were just there to collect rebounds and try to block layups. However that didn't even come into play because the opposition made it's outside shots because of the damn advantage we gave them by playing a traditional big.

Over the last 12 days, Tom Thibodeau’s Knicks have blown a 23-point home lead to the Hawks, gave up a franchise record 27 threes to the Celtics (also at home), were decimated by 27 by a Nets team that had been mired in turmoil just days earlier, and now gave up their most points in regulation in nearly 43 years.

Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, and three times is a pattern. Four times? That’s a hot seat.

if we go 0 fer on this road trip, we'll be 6 & 12. that is 18 games or 22% of the season. And a pace to win 27 games.

It hasn't happened. Maybe we rally and win 1, but I could very well see- based on how they are playing- a goose egg for the trip.

If that were to happen, would anyone be shocked if Thibs is fired? And would you think it wasn't fair?

Hypotheticals, like hindsight. I know.

Is an asst. coach on the bench going to do anything beyond overachieving, and resulting in a mid first round pick?

Ive been one of the biggest opponents of tanking. Letting Thibs finish the season doesnt meet the definition of tanking, but the results might be similar

Wembanyanaaaa...
Wembanyanaaaa....
Wembanyanaaaa...

franco12 wrote:

TPercy wrote:I don't think a new coach would be that much better. I think you give Thibs time to get sorted out defensively. You also have to keep in mind that unless the young wildcards on our team show crazy unexpected growth, this teams ceiling is pretty low relative to the rest of the league. Brunson is good, but without a franchise #1 option we can only go so far.

He's had 3 years. It's been downhill since year 1.

This is year 2 with most of the players. The defense is worse.

I knew we'd give up a lot of points, after we had that unbelievable first quarter scoring outburst.

But wait……I’ve had multiple discussions on the offense vs defense. Someone in this forum said “we need to score points right?” I’ve said it then and I’ll say it now, offense wins games sometimes, defense wins championships. I rather have a van gundy type players like, Bonner, oakley, x man, mason who are rugged defenders than EF and Randle who are pre-madona jump shooters.

Defense will always be more consistent than offense. Leon Rose knows knick history and thibs style of players. The team they gave thibs was great. Starting unit was loaded with defenders. We was 4th seed and Leon Rose got cute. Shipped out the defense and brought in offense.

How did that turn out. I killed them for doing that and said don’t sleep on the defensive impact od payton and bullock. They will be missed. And that’s a great example of bullock vs EF. Or payton vs Brunson. They not scoring 135 but Okc would not score 145. Pick your poison.

This is NY damn it. We need guard play and defense.

Thibs has lost this team

blkexec wrote:

franco12 wrote:

TPercy wrote:I don't think a new coach would be that much better. I think you give Thibs time to get sorted out defensively. You also have to keep in mind that unless the young wildcards on our team show crazy unexpected growth, this teams ceiling is pretty low relative to the rest of the league. Brunson is good, but without a franchise #1 option we can only go so far.

He's had 3 years. It's been downhill since year 1.

This is year 2 with most of the players. The defense is worse.

I knew we'd give up a lot of points, after we had that unbelievable first quarter scoring outburst.

But wait……I’ve had multiple discussions on the offense vs defense. Someone in this forum said “we need to score points right?” I’ve said it then and I’ll say it now, offense wins games sometimes, defense wins championships. I rather have a van gundy type players like, Bonner, oakley, x man, mason who are rugged defenders than EF and Randle who are pre-madona jump shooters.

Defense will always be more consistent than offense. Leon Rose knows knick history and thibs style of players. The team they gave thibs was great. Starting unit was loaded with defenders. We was 4th seed and Leon Rose got cute. Shipped out the defense and brought in offense.

How did that turn out. I killed them for doing that and said don’t sleep on the defensive impact od payton and bullock. They will be missed. And that’s a great example of bullock vs EF. Or payton vs Brunson. They not scoring 135 but Okc would not score 145. Pick your poison.

This is NY damn it. We need guard play and defense.

I don’t think you can win today’s modern NBA with defense- you need to be able to hit the three, especially when you are wide open.

I don’t think the players we got rid of really matter that much. Bullock and Payton?

We have RJ- he’s good on defense, apparently, but he can’t make a lay up or hit an open 3.

The good teams shoot well and play decent defense but the championship level teams all shoot consistently great from outside and defend excessively well. We are inconsistent both offensively and defensively. Two seasons ago we had the defense but not enough offense. Swapping Bullock for Fournier really was a poor move and not just because of the reduced defense. Bullock was solid enough defensively which allowed RJ to guard the 2nd toughest wing. Now he has to guard bigger and better players due to Fournier's limitations. Also, Bullock had terrific chemistry and spacing with Randle. He couldn't do much with dribbling - but since Randle (and RJ) overhandled so much it was always a quick kick out to Bullock. When Bullock is your 3rd solid defender you can get away with his lack of offensive versatility. On the Knicks he was our best defender and we should have left well enough alone and tried to upgrade elsewhere.

The move to upgrade the PG went from Payton (very good defensively but couldn't shoot outside) to Kemba (very poor defensively and due to age - limited offensively). We swung and missed and while Brunson is certainly an upgrade offensively - he's not much better defensively vs Kemba.

So we have to play 4 vs 5 offensively (due to Mitch) and 3 vs 5 defensively when Fournier and Brunson are starting. Can't expect much winning with that IMO. The Hawks can hide Capella since nearly every other starter can shoot really well. We can't hide Mitch unless A) both Randle and RJ shoot better from outside, B) Grimes becomes that solid shooting guard, C) we locate some offensive consistency from the other wing position. Mitch is great defensively of course.

So while Thibs is a dinosaur and his biggest fault is his inability to make adjustments IMO - if we brought Kenny Atkinson or Snyder in right now - we'd still have significant roster imbalances from not having 2-way players.

As much as it would be great to have an offensive talent like Donovan Mitchell - we'd still struggle against teams as we'd have to hide him (in addition to Brunson) defensively. SGA (if becomes available) plays both sides so he should be someone we take a long look out.

franco12 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

franco12 wrote:

TPercy wrote:I don't think a new coach would be that much better. I think you give Thibs time to get sorted out defensively. You also have to keep in mind that unless the young wildcards on our team show crazy unexpected growth, this teams ceiling is pretty low relative to the rest of the league. Brunson is good, but without a franchise #1 option we can only go so far.

He's had 3 years. It's been downhill since year 1.

This is year 2 with most of the players. The defense is worse.

I knew we'd give up a lot of points, after we had that unbelievable first quarter scoring outburst.

But wait……I’ve had multiple discussions on the offense vs defense. Someone in this forum said “we need to score points right?” I’ve said it then and I’ll say it now, offense wins games sometimes, defense wins championships. I rather have a van gundy type players like, Bonner, oakley, x man, mason who are rugged defenders than EF and Randle who are pre-madona jump shooters.

Defense will always be more consistent than offense. Leon Rose knows knick history and thibs style of players. The team they gave thibs was great. Starting unit was loaded with defenders. We was 4th seed and Leon Rose got cute. Shipped out the defense and brought in offense.

How did that turn out. I killed them for doing that and said don’t sleep on the defensive impact od payton and bullock. They will be missed. And that’s a great example of bullock vs EF. Or payton vs Brunson. They not scoring 135 but Okc would not score 145. Pick your poison.

This is NY damn it. We need guard play and defense.

I don’t think you can win today’s modern NBA with defense- you need to be able to hit the three, especially when you are wide open.

I don’t think the players we got rid of really matter that much. Bullock and Payton?

We have RJ- he’s good on defense, apparently, but he can’t make a lay up or hit an open 3.

I’m doubtful of this just by the eye test

I like Thibs and I am currenty taking into account this hot seat talk is being reported by the media (and maybe even media driven) so I take it with a grain of salt, but behind closed doors, if I was a GM, my belief-and it requires some forward thinking-is if a bad stretch at any point in the first half of a season is enough for you to consider firing your coach, your coach should be fired before that season begins. Talking about a lost season 13 games into a season, should cost not only the coach, but the GM their job.

joec32033 wrote:I like Thibs and I am currenty taking into account this hot seat talk is being reported by the media (and maybe even media driven) so I take it with a grain of salt, but behind closed doors, if I was a GM, my belief-and it requires some forward thinking-is if a bad stretch at any point in the first half of a season is enough for you to consider firing your coach, your coach should be fired before that season begins. Talking about a lost season 13 games into a season, should cost not only the coach, but the GM their job.

I agree. You cannot fire Thibbs at this point in the season. However, this is his third year and the team has not progressed much. If we don’t at least make the play-in game, then I think Thibbs has to be fired, especially if a solid coaching candidate is available.

TheGame wrote:

joec32033 wrote:I like Thibs and I am currenty taking into account this hot seat talk is being reported by the media (and maybe even media driven) so I take it with a grain of salt, but behind closed doors, if I was a GM, my belief-and it requires some forward thinking-is if a bad stretch at any point in the first half of a season is enough for you to consider firing your coach, your coach should be fired before that season begins. Talking about a lost season 13 games into a season, should cost not only the coach, but the GM their job.

I agree. You cannot fire Thibbs at this point in the season. However, this is his third year and the team has not progressed much. If we don’t at least make the play-in game, then I think Thibbs has to be fired, especially if a solid coaching candidate is available.

They can fire thibs right now. He should be on the hot seat since last year's and teams have figured his defense out.

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

franco12 wrote:

TPercy wrote:I don't think a new coach would be that much better. I think you give Thibs time to get sorted out defensively. You also have to keep in mind that unless the young wildcards on our team show crazy unexpected growth, this teams ceiling is pretty low relative to the rest of the league. Brunson is good, but without a franchise #1 option we can only go so far.

He's had 3 years. It's been downhill since year 1.

This is year 2 with most of the players. The defense is worse.

I knew we'd give up a lot of points, after we had that unbelievable first quarter scoring outburst.

But wait……I’ve had multiple discussions on the offense vs defense. Someone in this forum said “we need to score points right?” I’ve said it then and I’ll say it now, offense wins games sometimes, defense wins championships. I rather have a van gundy type players like, Bonner, oakley, x man, mason who are rugged defenders than EF and Randle who are pre-madona jump shooters.

Defense will always be more consistent than offense. Leon Rose knows knick history and thibs style of players. The team they gave thibs was great. Starting unit was loaded with defenders. We was 4th seed and Leon Rose got cute. Shipped out the defense and brought in offense.

How did that turn out. I killed them for doing that and said don’t sleep on the defensive impact od payton and bullock. They will be missed. And that’s a great example of bullock vs EF. Or payton vs Brunson. They not scoring 135 but Okc would not score 145. Pick your poison.

This is NY damn it. We need guard play and defense.

I don’t think you can win today’s modern NBA with defense- you need to be able to hit the three, especially when you are wide open.

I don’t think the players we got rid of really matter that much. Bullock and Payton?

We have RJ- he’s good on defense, apparently, but he can’t make a lay up or hit an open 3.

I’m doubtful of this just by the eye test

I agree! I just needed to put the disclaimer in there because I have read lots of stats that say he is good defensively.

This is my other reason to fire Thibs- I'm worried about the development of RJ.

Maybe RJ isn't that good. But we just extended him and he has seemingly regressed this year.

I'm also in agreement with the notion that the FO should be fire- but I think the first step is a new voice in the locker room- see if these guys have talent, like RJ & IQ & Obi.

And if they don't, have a new GM come in and jettison everyone Hinkie style.

wargames wrote:

TheGame wrote:

joec32033 wrote:I like Thibs and I am currenty taking into account this hot seat talk is being reported by the media (and maybe even media driven) so I take it with a grain of salt, but behind closed doors, if I was a GM, my belief-and it requires some forward thinking-is if a bad stretch at any point in the first half of a season is enough for you to consider firing your coach, your coach should be fired before that season begins. Talking about a lost season 13 games into a season, should cost not only the coach, but the GM their job.

I agree. You cannot fire Thibbs at this point in the season. However, this is his third year and the team has not progressed much. If we don’t at least make the play-in game, then I think Thibbs has to be fired, especially if a solid coaching candidate is available.

They can fire thibs right now. He should be on the hot seat since last year's and teams have figured his defense out.

So fire your coach every other year? Quite frankly, that's stupid.

Judge the talent and injury situation and let me know what your expectations were for last year.

What did you predict as the wins total for this year?

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:

TheGame wrote:

joec32033 wrote:I like Thibs and I am currenty taking into account this hot seat talk is being reported by the media (and maybe even media driven) so I take it with a grain of salt, but behind closed doors, if I was a GM, my belief-and it requires some forward thinking-is if a bad stretch at any point in the first half of a season is enough for you to consider firing your coach, your coach should be fired before that season begins. Talking about a lost season 13 games into a season, should cost not only the coach, but the GM their job.

I agree. You cannot fire Thibbs at this point in the season. However, this is his third year and the team has not progressed much. If we don’t at least make the play-in game, then I think Thibbs has to be fired, especially if a solid coaching candidate is available.

They can fire thibs right now. He should be on the hot seat since last year's and teams have figured his defense out.

So fire your coach every other year? Quite frankly, that's stupid.

Judge the talent and injury situation and let me know what your expectations were for last year.

What did you predict as the wins total for this year?

It hasn't been every other year. This is Thibs third year and he is breaking records for being bad. He has the most 30 pt turn around losses, teams are breaking their 3 pt shot franchise records, and the knicks gave up almost 150 pts to a team that is better prepared to win later than the knicks are

Also, injuries are too simple of an excuse. They were barely winning when they we’re healthier than their opponents and you can argue opposing team injuries is why they have won. I thought they were going to play defense when I predicted them being a winning team. Instead they are trying to win offensively?!!a?

Also how many times have I been in here saying they need to fire Thibs? Honestly what is Thibs doing as a coach if his team is playing bad defense? Thibs can only win by playing defense, and running his starters into the ground.

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:

TheGame wrote:

joec32033 wrote:I like Thibs and I am currenty taking into account this hot seat talk is being reported by the media (and maybe even media driven) so I take it with a grain of salt, but behind closed doors, if I was a GM, my belief-and it requires some forward thinking-is if a bad stretch at any point in the first half of a season is enough for you to consider firing your coach, your coach should be fired before that season begins. Talking about a lost season 13 games into a season, should cost not only the coach, but the GM their job.

I agree. You cannot fire Thibbs at this point in the season. However, this is his third year and the team has not progressed much. If we don’t at least make the play-in game, then I think Thibbs has to be fired, especially if a solid coaching candidate is available.

They can fire thibs right now. He should be on the hot seat since last year's and teams have figured his defense out.

So fire your coach every other year? Quite frankly, that's stupid.

Judge the talent and injury situation and let me know what your expectations were for last year.

What did you predict as the wins total for this year?

It hasn't been every other year. This is Thibs third year and he is breaking records for being bad. He has the most 30 pt turn around losses, teams are breaking their 3 pt shot franchise records, and the knicks gave up almost 150 pts to a team that is better prepared to win later than the knicks are

Also, injuries are too simple of an excuse. They were barely winning when they we’re healthier than their opponents and you can argue opposing team injuries is why they have won. I thought they were going to play defense when I predicted them being a winning team. Instead they are trying to win offensively?!!a?

Also how many times have I been in here saying they need to fire Thibs? Honestly what is Thibs doing as a coach if his team is playing bad defense? Thibs can only win by playing defense, and running his starters into the ground.

maybe guys are tired of being asked to run through fire?

Randle seems like he has come around this year.

RJ seemingly has taken a step back.

And we got Brunson. Maybe there isn't enough to win.

BLOW IT ALL UP!!

Look, I know we are all disappointed and the team looks terrible right now but I think Thibbs has earned the right to finish the season. Now if we lose like Sunday 5-6 more times over the next 10 games, then it might be time to reevaluate things, but I think Thibbs deserves at least another month or two. In fact, I really would not fire him until the end of the year regardless. I think the FO will be spending its focus on finding a trade that can help because we need some changes on the roster (or maybe a healthy Grimes will make the difference). The bottomline is it is too early to jumpship.

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:

TheGame wrote:

joec32033 wrote:I like Thibs and I am currenty taking into account this hot seat talk is being reported by the media (and maybe even media driven) so I take it with a grain of salt, but behind closed doors, if I was a GM, my belief-and it requires some forward thinking-is if a bad stretch at any point in the first half of a season is enough for you to consider firing your coach, your coach should be fired before that season begins. Talking about a lost season 13 games into a season, should cost not only the coach, but the GM their job.

I agree. You cannot fire Thibbs at this point in the season. However, this is his third year and the team has not progressed much. If we don’t at least make the play-in game, then I think Thibbs has to be fired, especially if a solid coaching candidate is available.

They can fire thibs right now. He should be on the hot seat since last year's and teams have figured his defense out.

So fire your coach every other year? Quite frankly, that's stupid.

Judge the talent and injury situation and let me know what your expectations were for last year.

What did you predict as the wins total for this year?

It hasn't been every other year. This is Thibs third year and he is breaking records for being bad. He has the most 30 pt turn around losses, teams are breaking their 3 pt shot franchise records, and the knicks gave up almost 150 pts to a team that is better prepared to win later than the knicks are

Also, injuries are too simple of an excuse. They were barely winning when they we’re healthier than their opponents and you can argue opposing team injuries is why they have won. I thought they were going to play defense when I predicted them being a winning team. Instead they are trying to win offensively?!!a?

Also how many times have I been in here saying they need to fire Thibs? Honestly what is Thibs doing as a coach if his team is playing bad defense? Thibs can only win by playing defense, and running his starters into the ground.

You mentioned that you thought Thibs should have been fired last year, so that would have been every other year.

After that you really don't address the reality of the situation last year. Or address your opinion on our talent level or wins expectation.

Thibs is 84-83 in one short season that netted a 4th seed 10 games over .500. He way overachieved.
Thus, he under achieved last season with 37 wins.
If each season is 82 games, the "Fire Thibs" crowd is just 3 games over two regular seasons. Or, if that's not enough, we are 6-7 in season three.
13 games in, and freaking the phuch out to fire him a game under .500.
Yes, it might go lower.

it all boils down to expectations right? There is hope, there is reality. We all hope for success. Nobody on the U.K. really hopes they lose.
Who really thought they'd be vying for a top 8 seed? Who thought the talent level was significantly that good? Was it "Hope" or "I got this"?
Other than Isiah, I never wanted any our our guys fired. I understood the reasoning but I always root for my guys to succeed.