Knicks · Fire Thibs (page 59)
Truth is, last year’s team was better and tougher, even with Randle injured. Leon dropped the ball not locking up iHart during the season if the long-term plan was to bring in KAT. We couldn’t have offered Beasley 6MM?
As for Thibs — it’s the same old story. Shamet should’ve gotten minutes with Brunson, even just to create space and force the defense to adjust. Last year it was Burks stuck on the bench. Now it’s too much Josh Hart, and not enough rotation flexibility. Thibs has been stubborn again.
VDesai wrote:blkexec wrote:What’s Thibs performance grade in game 2?Was a D for me. Team came out flat/low focus.
Players were constantly bunched, no one open. There was no offense today
Beef Stew is out and yet the dominate us on the glass without any size advantage.
He has to use the bench more - especially when the starters are in the mud. The third quarter was mucky and he needed to make a sub earlier. Why not try Cam Payne in his normal 4th Q rotation for an energy spark? Thats his normal spot anyway. Not asking Thibs to go outside his box.
The 5 man starting unit is our most played lineup and its statistically mediocre and getting worse as the season goes on. Why not stagger players more. Especially Mikal? Would you consider closing with Deuce instead of Mikal?
I would close with the hot hand.
Starting 5 the most played, yet mediocre? Talk about insanity.
Not going with cam in his normal spot, after he basically won game 1.
These are softball moves I would expect a COTY or one of the top experienced nba coach, to knock these moves out the park. Head scratcher definitely.
Not using the bench more when the bench helped us win game 1?
And there’s more blame to go around. Offense was laughable like OG bringing the ball up. Worse ball handler on the team. Just to cross half court and pass? He’s a downhill player. Issues you see near the beginning are of the season.
KAT, JB and Thibs needs some outside his current coaching staff help if they can’t figure out how to get KAT more involved. Too many long stretches of KAT and Mikal not impacting on the floor. JB getting doubled and hart not a threat in half court.
We go as far as OG will take us.
Hes the difference maker with this team. And Towns as well but OG impacts both ends. Towns defense is so up and way way down.
SergioNYK wrote:blkexec wrote:What’s Thibs performance grade in game 2?Not good.
Didn't like the stagnant offense, not prioritizing getting KAT involved against Harris, not enough Mitch to help on the glass, gave up too easily on Payne (didn't play in the second half) and I also thought Thibs should've gotten a tech arguing one of those many non-calls.
That being said, it's not on Thibs for players getting outhustled, outrebounded, KAT being disinterested and running to the corner, Payne's 3 quick fouls, Bridges choking on 3 wide open shots late in the game and OG playing poorly at both ends.
Wins and losses are never ever on one player or the HC but Thibs was not good last night. Nobody really was.
I agree
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martin wrote:I think this is a fair take:I think it describes what we have seen. The question is simply is that enough data to make what could be a lateral change or even a step back. Do they just need more time?Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/paulieknep/status/1914808334957297964
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I think Thibs most certainly HAS made adjustments, they are always slow and methodical.
I do NOT think we have an Evan Fournier situation where we can clearly see one or two of these guys is a bad fit and not what we want to do.
To me Thibs and Leon are still checking all the boxes I am using to measure their OVERALL success. Playoffs are meaningful. Losing to Detroit would indicate considerable failure. Losing to Boston is more "not ready" but I would expect a competitive series and 2 wins. They are not Jordan's Bulls FFS.
So for me it's "let them cook"
DLeethal wrote:The most disappointing thing of the Bridges experiment is his defense. He hasn't been a stopper all year. Cade is actually running screens to get the matchup against Bridges and cooking him. Never would I thought teams would be targeting Bridges on D but here we are.
Or OG is just that good. Lesser of evils.
Cade is world class and not too many guys straight stop him. Ball handling + size + strength, he got it all from a PG position.
DLeethal wrote:The most disappointing thing of the Bridges experiment is his defense. He hasn't been a stopper all year. Cade is actually running screens to get the matchup against Bridges and cooking him. Never would I thought teams would be targeting Bridges on D but here we are.
The impressions you guys have of Mikal are a bit biased. I think the cost to get him (spoiler: 5 picks was a fuckton) over state the issue and make it hard to see what he brings.
The above shot charts are from the below websites. Its full of interesting stats. All I care about is #2 in the below links - Teamwork. How a player affects the Plus Minus of his team compared to the rest of the league. That's how you win.
Bridges creates positive outcomes better than 97% of the players in the league. They put Brunson in a bad light. Make me scrutinize it, but not entirely deny it.
Mikal Bridges (TW: 97%)
https://3stepsbasket.com/player/mikal-br...
KAT (TW: 98%)
https://3stepsbasket.com/player/karl-ant...
OG (TW: 92%)
https://3stepsbasket.com/player/og-anuno...
Josh Hart (TW: 87%)
https://3stepsbasket.com/player/josh-har...
Jalen Brunson (TW: 72%)
https://3stepsbasket.com/player/jalen-br...
Giannis Antekounpo (TW: 96%)
https://3stepsbasket.com/player/giannis-...
Pretty cool, right?
Thibs will continue to throw the same 5 out there and hope chemistry covers up the gaps. Chemistry can help you win 50 games sure, but come playoff time coaches have enough film to exploit the gaps.
What’s been frustrating all year is Thibs rigidity with this starting 5. Sometimes rigidity is needed for the players but when you have a flawed starting 5 it takes some flexibility to try something different. Evan Fournier may actually be a solution on this team because he can shoot when he’s on. We go on these 2-12 from 3 stretches and expect to win a game on defense with an offensive minded team.
That chart Martin posted aligns with my take from day 1. If Thibs can’t see this we may need a new set of eyes. But in typical Thibs fashion he will adjust and players will help him win game 3. Lots of pressure on everyone now.
Delon Wright is Eric Snow
Mitch is Mutumbo (RIP)
JB needs a Delon type guard to run with. Now you have defense at the point of attach. Deuce could also fit that role but Delon is 6’6 and deuce is 6’1.
Towns needs Mitch. It will clog the paint sometimes on offense but look what you get on defense.
It’s not rocket science.
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blkexec wrote:JB is like iverson
Delon Wright is Eric Snow
Mitch is Mutumbo (RIP)JB needs a Delon type guard to run with. Now you have defense at the point of attach. Deuce could also fit that role but Delon is 6’6 and deuce is 6’1.
Towns needs Mitch. It will clog the paint sometimes on offense but look what you get on defense.
It’s not rocket science.
Agreed, we aren't maximizing our offensive potential by spreading the floor anyway. So might as well maximize what we can on D and start Mitch
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👀
Last year I remember making a thread about identity. The players on the team matched Thibs mentality, style, work ethic 100% perfectly. Has any team/coach combo on the Knicks felt as in synch as the Riley/90's teams as last years Thibs Knicks? Never quit, never stop hustling, never give up on a game, win at all costs. We all felt it could win till the injuries came. That team didn't space well, that team didn't get 40 assists, but that team found a way.
This year we bring in KAT and Bridges and lose Hartenstein/Randle/DiVo. The reality is better players coming in, but, are they Thibs guys? A Thibs player doesn't float through a quarter without making something happen in terms of touches, defense, hustle etc. But Bridges and KAT, at their core, probably aren't Thibs guys.
Does Thibs ever want to play a 5 out? Don't get this wrong - Thibs does value shooting. Thibs does want 3s. Donte shot like 15 3's a game from the 2nd half on last year. He wants the volume...
But he doesn't play Mazulla/Stevens 5 out. He wants 3's from the corners and elbows. Where he really wants 3's is off offensive rebounds. Thibs is not a spacing guy. The spacing for shooting comes off the scramble. Attack the basket, crash the boards, when you grab the offensive rebound, the defense is out of position - now shoot the open 3.
At the end of the day, we found ourselves in a situation where if KAT wasn't gonna take Tobias to the low block, we either had a choice between Jalen ISO'ing Schroeder or KAT ISO'ing Cade from the top of the key. Which would you rather go to?
If you want to play like the Tatum Celtics, than Thibs is probably not your coach.
Can the Iverson Sixers win a title in this NBA? They didn't back then.
Can the Tatum Celtics win? Well yeah, we know that...
blkexec wrote:JB is like iverson
Delon Wright is Eric Snow
Mitch is Mutumbo (RIP)JB needs a Delon type guard to run with. Now you have defense at the point of attach. Deuce could also fit that role but Delon is 6’6 and deuce is 6’1.
Towns needs Mitch. It will clog the paint sometimes on offense but look what you get on defense.
It’s not rocket science.
Would agree with you and have been trying to make the same point for some time.
My thing is, if JB needs someone and KAT needs someone to make up for their deficiencies, are they the right ones to lead the team? One making over $50M next year.
VDesai wrote:Ok so you realize what you're saying isn't as much as about Jalen as it really is about Thibs.Last year I remember making a thread about identity. The players on the team matched Thibs mentality, style, work ethic 100% perfectly. Has any team/coach combo on the Knicks felt as in synch as the Riley/90's teams as last years Thibs Knicks? Never quit, never stop hustling, never give up on a game, win at all costs. We all felt it could win till the injuries came. That team didn't space well, that team didn't get 40 assists, but that team found a way.
This year we bring in KAT and Bridges and lose Hartenstein/Randle/DiVo. The reality is better players coming in, but, are they Thibs guys? A Thibs player doesn't float through a quarter without making something happen in terms of touches, defense, hustle etc. But Bridges and KAT, at their core, probably aren't Thibs guys.
Does Thibs ever want to play a 5 out? Don't get this wrong - Thibs does value shooting. Thibs does want 3s. Donte shot like 15 3's a game from the 2nd half on last year. He wants the volume...
But he doesn't play Mazulla/Stevens 5 out. He wants 3's from the corners and elbows. Where he really wants 3's is off offensive rebounds. Thibs is not a spacing guy. The spacing for shooting comes off the scramble. Attack the basket, crash the boards, when you grab the offensive rebound, the defense is out of position - now shoot the open 3.
At the end of the day, we found ourselves in a situation where if KAT wasn't gonna take Tobias to the low block, we either had a choice between Jalen ISO'ing Schroeder or KAT ISO'ing Cade from the top of the key. Which would you rather go to?
I don't quite understand this take. And I don't things are so black and white as you may have written.
Right now defenses take away KAT by putting a wing on him. If KAT is at the 3point line, they just crowd him.
It's on the offense to combat that. The defense has taken the KAT at the top of the key or anywhere near the 3point line. That's not wanting to do a 5-out things, it's a defense adjusting and the Knicks not figuring out a better way to beat them.
Jalen dominating the ball does the same thing as not finding KAT open when he is at the 3point line. And everyone else too.
Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying.
martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Ok so you realize what you're saying isn't as much as about Jalen as it really is about Thibs.Last year I remember making a thread about identity. The players on the team matched Thibs mentality, style, work ethic 100% perfectly. Has any team/coach combo on the Knicks felt as in synch as the Riley/90's teams as last years Thibs Knicks? Never quit, never stop hustling, never give up on a game, win at all costs. We all felt it could win till the injuries came. That team didn't space well, that team didn't get 40 assists, but that team found a way.
This year we bring in KAT and Bridges and lose Hartenstein/Randle/DiVo. The reality is better players coming in, but, are they Thibs guys? A Thibs player doesn't float through a quarter without making something happen in terms of touches, defense, hustle etc. But Bridges and KAT, at their core, probably aren't Thibs guys.
Does Thibs ever want to play a 5 out? Don't get this wrong - Thibs does value shooting. Thibs does want 3s. Donte shot like 15 3's a game from the 2nd half on last year. He wants the volume...
But he doesn't play Mazulla/Stevens 5 out. He wants 3's from the corners and elbows. Where he really wants 3's is off offensive rebounds. Thibs is not a spacing guy. The spacing for shooting comes off the scramble. Attack the basket, crash the boards, when you grab the offensive rebound, the defense is out of position - now shoot the open 3.
At the end of the day, we found ourselves in a situation where if KAT wasn't gonna take Tobias to the low block, we either had a choice between Jalen ISO'ing Schroeder or KAT ISO'ing Cade from the top of the key. Which would you rather go to?
I don't quite understand this take. And I don't things are so black and white as you may have written.
Right now defenses take away KAT by putting a wing on him. If KAT is at the 3point line, they just crowd him.
It's on the offense to combat that. The defense has taken the KAT at the top of the key or anywhere near the 3point line. That's not wanting to do a 5-out things, it's a defense adjusting and the Knicks not figuring out a better way to beat them.
Jalen dominating the ball does the same thing as not finding KAT open when he is at the 3point line. And everyone else too.
Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying.
My point is Thibs has not committed to the idea of losing rebounding for floor spacing. He'd rather get his 3's off the space created from the scramble of crashing boards, then the naturally created space from having 5 shooters. He has shown an aversion to these lineups all year. He's loathe to take Josh off the floor because he wants offensive boards.
Within the offense and the way its constructed, KAT needs to take a smaller defender inside. Katz has mentioned how as time goes on he is trying to do that less and less. He did it in game 1 and dominated, and then in Game 2 he rarely tried to establish position. We gave him the ball outside and he tried to take Harris off the dribble from behind the arc. From my vantage point, I saw KAT literally just standing around - no movement. No intention to establish position, also no aggression hitting the boards. To me the only way to combat it is to get him moving closer tot he basket.
We should be getting more 3 attempts if Duren is guarding Hart, but we seem to have taken the next step from him passing up open shots, and now putting him in places where there is no shot to take.
That said Josh has been the most physical player in the series IMO, in a series where were clearly being out physicaled.
VDesai wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Ok so you realize what you're saying isn't as much as about Jalen as it really is about Thibs.Last year I remember making a thread about identity. The players on the team matched Thibs mentality, style, work ethic 100% perfectly. Has any team/coach combo on the Knicks felt as in synch as the Riley/90's teams as last years Thibs Knicks? Never quit, never stop hustling, never give up on a game, win at all costs. We all felt it could win till the injuries came. That team didn't space well, that team didn't get 40 assists, but that team found a way.
This year we bring in KAT and Bridges and lose Hartenstein/Randle/DiVo. The reality is better players coming in, but, are they Thibs guys? A Thibs player doesn't float through a quarter without making something happen in terms of touches, defense, hustle etc. But Bridges and KAT, at their core, probably aren't Thibs guys.
Does Thibs ever want to play a 5 out? Don't get this wrong - Thibs does value shooting. Thibs does want 3s. Donte shot like 15 3's a game from the 2nd half on last year. He wants the volume...
But he doesn't play Mazulla/Stevens 5 out. He wants 3's from the corners and elbows. Where he really wants 3's is off offensive rebounds. Thibs is not a spacing guy. The spacing for shooting comes off the scramble. Attack the basket, crash the boards, when you grab the offensive rebound, the defense is out of position - now shoot the open 3.
At the end of the day, we found ourselves in a situation where if KAT wasn't gonna take Tobias to the low block, we either had a choice between Jalen ISO'ing Schroeder or KAT ISO'ing Cade from the top of the key. Which would you rather go to?
I don't quite understand this take. And I don't things are so black and white as you may have written.
Right now defenses take away KAT by putting a wing on him. If KAT is at the 3point line, they just crowd him.
It's on the offense to combat that. The defense has taken the KAT at the top of the key or anywhere near the 3point line. That's not wanting to do a 5-out things, it's a defense adjusting and the Knicks not figuring out a better way to beat them.
Jalen dominating the ball does the same thing as not finding KAT open when he is at the 3point line. And everyone else too.
Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying.
My point is Thibs has not committed to the idea of losing rebounding for floor spacing. He'd rather get his 3's off the space created from the scramble of crashing boards, then the naturally created space from having 5 shooters. He has shown an aversion to these lineups all year. He's loathe to take Josh off the floor because he wants offensive boards.
Within the offense and the way its constructed, KAT needs to take a smaller defender inside. Katz has mentioned how as time goes on he is trying to do that less and less. He did it in game 1 and dominated, and then in Game 2 he rarely tried to establish position. We gave him the ball outside and he tried to take Harris off the dribble from behind the arc. From my vantage point, I saw KAT literally just standing around - no movement. No intention to establish position, also no aggression hitting the boards. To me the only way to combat it is to get him moving closer tot he basket.
I think I see what you are saying, but I am tripped up by the offensive rebounding at the expense of pure 5-out. I don't think that's Thibs thinking. Rebounding in general is a problem for the Knicks regardless of 5-out.
I think it just comes down to Josh versus Deuce? Is that fair? And what each brings to the different lineups, etc.
With Josh, you will never get the pure 5-out capabilities, because he refuses to shoot and defenses refuse to guard him. With Deuce, you lose rebounding. You lose a guy who is downhill. You lose transition baskets and transition push off of defensive rebounding, something the Knicks also lack because Jalen is so slow, Deuce is just not the decision maker in traffic or for himself.
I'd say Deuce is a much better on ball defender than Josh. Josh is more switchable up and down to PF's. Josh is obviously a better rebounder and assist guy, the triple doubles point to this.
For me, it's the tradeoff of Josh to Deuce (give or take) that Thibs is not comfortable with.
I'm back to my early year sentiments: Josh is better off bench. Right now, Knicks don't have or Thibs doesn't trust anyone else to fill that starting spot or those minutes.
Deuce's offensive numbers are not so good this year. It seems like he never got into a rhythm and that was caused by the injuries and time off.