Knicks · Knicks just beat the Cavs, 7 of the 9 guys who played are 24 or younger and we are 2 games out of the 4th seed (page 1)

I also just picked my butt and my finger smells like all the guys Briggs say we should have drafted.... I am sure they would have all been stars (just stinky ones)

I love the patience

That can be the new name for the haters etc. The Butt Pickers!

I just made a similar point on another thread -- with somewhat different phraseology -- that the team though frustratingly inconsistent with a few real "stinkers" (to go with some tough close losses to excellent teams as well as some great wins) is predominantly a very young team. Also we have two new players in the mix. To have the patience to see if they can gel is beyond the scope of the Butt Pickers. Forget that we are totally in the playoff hunt and a good run puts us right there. Better to boo and yell to tear it down. Throw out ideas like fire the coach and attach #1s to Randle for Westbrook. That'll work.

I loved the effort last night but if anyone is ignoring the lack of effort for most of the year it’s a mistake.

I’ve also been around long enough where 2 games out of 4th in early Dec can turn into 2 games out of 10th in March.

Here is hoping to a turn towards great D, young players playing and some wins. Just need to bring the D every game — prior to last night I think we were bottom 5 defensively.

LivingLegend wrote:I loved the effort last night but if anyone is ignoring the lack of effort for most of the year it’s a mistake.

I’ve also been around long enough where 2 games out of 4th in early Dec can turn into 2 games out of 10th in March.

Here is hoping to a turn towards great D, young players playing and some wins. Just need to bring the D every game — prior to last night I think we were bottom 5 defensively.

No one is denying the bad performances, the inconsistency, the uncertainty. Just saying the big picture is about taking it all in. Which includes the positive. Very difficult for some fans.

It’s a lack of direction.

Sign Veterans. Move Veterans and give up a pick. Could have signed Monk who was begging to be here we signed Fournier, who can’t crack the rotation.

Give up a 1st rounder for Cam, he is in and out of the rotation.

Sign Rose to a multi year deal, play a second round pick over the guy.

No point guard, pass on Halliburton, take Obi Topping, sign Julius Randle, jerk Obi in and out of the rotation.

Leon and Wes don’t seem to have a plan here.

The east is kind of a mess right now, we are in the middle of mediocrity, just would like them to pick a road and stay on it.

MS wrote:It’s a lack of direction.

Sign Veterans. Move Veterans and give up a pick. Could have signed Monk who was begging to be here we signed Fournier, who can’t crack the rotation.

Give up a 1st rounder for Cam, he is in and out of the rotation.

Sign Rose to a multi year deal, play a second round pick over the guy.

No point guard, pass on Halliburton, take Obi Topping, sign Julius Randle, jerk Obi in and out of the rotation.

Leon and Wes don’t seem to have a plan here.

The east is kind of a mess right now, we are in the middle of mediocrity, just would like them to pick a road and stay on it.

this is nitpicking at its finest. Is your expectation every move works? Look at the roster they took over. Its not lack of direct. Its get better in every way possible and build an asset base.

What did these guys start with? Look at the roster starting year 3 and I am not sure how much clearer the plan can be

Every FO makes mistakes (even the best ones) - I think we all can agree on that. I believe they got duped when they were planning to move on from Randle (when they drafted Obi) and he overperformed. Instead of seeing the long-term considerations - we were so desperate to be "just good" again that we resigned him when we could have sold high. I understand the thinking but that was a significant point where our path could/should have changed. His value from then to now seems staggering. The key is to forecast well and stay one (or two) steps ahead - I believe we took the easy way out after sucking for so long.

The main issue now is what path is the right one to take...try to build via draft and trades (from mediocrity) or take a few steps back with the long-term goal of obtaining higher end talent?

If you support continuing on from current position - who are the big fish targets and what is the cost for these type of players? Booker, KAT, SGA? After seeing what DM would have cost I'd much rather try to obtain top tier talent through the draft (due to the expected cost and roster depletion). I believe we actually have a great bench and some decent players - but we would lose all/most of them to obtain this top tier talent needed to take the next step. What the Nets lucked into when KD and Kyrie decided to join them is similar to where we are currently IMO. Don't see anyone of that level deciding to take their talents to MSG sadly...

So it's fine to say we should be happy we're finally not terrible but how do you take the next step to advance? Randle was supposed to be the very good player that we could package to turn into a higher level star. It's suggested we would need to attach a pick to get rid of him at this point. I think the path we are taking is much more difficult and would require more good fortune then the Knicks have experienced since the 84 draft.

jskinny35 wrote:Every FO makes mistakes (even the best ones) - I think we all can agree on that. I believe they got duped when they were planning to move on from Randle (when they drafted Obi) and he overperformed. Instead of seeing the long-term considerations - we were so desperate to be "just good" again that we resigned him when we could have sold high. I understand the thinking but that was a significant point where our path could/should have changed. His value from then to now seems staggering. The key is to forecast well and stay one (or two) steps ahead - I believe we took the easy way out after sucking for so long.

The main issue now is what path is the right one to take...try to build via draft and trades (from mediocrity) or take a few steps back with the long-term goal of obtaining higher end talent?

If you support continuing on from current position - who are the big fish targets and what is the cost for these type of players? Booker, KAT, SGA? After seeing what DM would have cost I'd much rather try to obtain top tier talent through the draft (due to the expected cost and roster depletion). I believe we actually have a great bench and some decent players - but we would lose all/most of them to obtain this top tier talent needed to take the next step. What the Nets lucked into when KD and Kyrie decided to join them is similar to where we are currently IMO. Don't see anyone of that level deciding to take their talents to MSG sadly...

So it's fine to say we should be happy we're finally not terrible but how do you take the next step to advance? Randle was supposed to be the very good player that we could package to turn into a higher level star. It's suggested we would need to attach a pick to get rid of him at this point. I think the path we are taking is much more difficult and would require more good fortune then the Knicks have experienced since the 84 draft.

This was definitely a pivotal decision for the Knicks. After that 2020-21 season, they had a choice to re-up the guys that just blew away all expectations or tear it down and maybe sell Randle to the highest bidder. Hard decision.

Tear it down and the entire fan base will hate you cause you go from 4th seed to low lottery intentionally. Recall, this is after Phil Jackson and Fiz and Hornecak and Fisher and all the debacles.

The Knicks opted to give the guys another go and brought back most on 2 year deals and brought in Fournier/Kemba to up the offense.

Without hindsight, it’s a tough decision either way.

In the end, selling peak Randle would have been the move but really who is doing that after like 10 years of not making playoffs.

How many more times do we get to play Detroit?

MS wrote:It’s a lack of direction.

Sign Veterans. Move Veterans and give up a pick. Could have signed Monk who was begging to be here we signed Fournier, who can’t crack the rotation.

Give up a 1st rounder for Cam, he is in and out of the rotation.

Sign Rose to a multi year deal, play a second round pick over the guy.

No point guard, pass on Halliburton, take Obi Topping, sign Julius Randle, jerk Obi in and out of the rotation.

Leon and Wes don’t seem to have a plan here.

The east is kind of a mess right now, we are in the middle of mediocrity, just would like them to pick a road and stay on it.

The direction has always been known. Continue to build internally and maintain flexibility while searching for a star via trade. None of what the Knicks have done has prevented those goals. The rest is sort of dart throws but not every move has to be part of the bigger plan. Some moves are just worthy gambles that don’t pay off.

Where’s all the whining about us not trading the farm+ for spider?

Philc1 wrote:Where’s all the whining about us not trading the farm+ for spider?

We definitely would have beat Cavs with him on our team!

KnickDanger wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I loved the effort last night but if anyone is ignoring the lack of effort for most of the year it’s a mistake.

I’ve also been around long enough where 2 games out of 4th in early Dec can turn into 2 games out of 10th in March.

Here is hoping to a turn towards great D, young players playing and some wins. Just need to bring the D every game — prior to last night I think we were bottom 5 defensively.

No one is denying the bad performances, the inconsistency, the uncertainty. Just saying the big picture is about taking it all in. Which includes the positive. Very difficult for some fans.

This statement is simply not true. And I agree with the original poster. Ignoring the lack of effort is the mistake. In fact, some knick fans (to my surprise) are ignoring a lot of negatives with this team, which is a mistake, and this train of thought is why we continue to be in mediocrity.

I've always been one of the most optimistic fans in this forum. Mainly because everybody is always doom and gloom. Seems like the fans in this forum have changed over the years which is fine. But we can't just glorify these wins and ignore the issues.

Question that I can't figure out from last game.

RJ struggled in the 1st half.
RJ played great in the 3rd quarter (didn't miss a shot).
RJ is taken out and doesn't go back into the game until the end of the 4th quarter?

Yes we won, thats great. But please explain that one. RJ is a polarizing player and he might need the same whisperer as Randle. But when RJ has it going, he can carry a team. And in the 3rd he had it going. But it seems like Thibs doesn't sway away from his pre-game script, which is my issue with Thibs. Thibs is one of the best at preparing for the next game and having a script in hand. He's also been the worse with in game script changes. But some of us will ignore that and say we won so move on.

blkexec wrote:Question that I can't figure out from last game.

RJ struggled in the 1st half.
RJ played great in the 3rd quarter (didn't miss a shot).
RJ is taken out and doesn't go back into the game until the end of the 4th quarter?

Yes we won, thats great. But please explain that one. RJ is a polarizing player and he might need the same whisperer as Randle. But when RJ has it going, he can carry a team. And in the 3rd he had it going. But it seems like Thibs doesn't sway away from his pre-game script, which is my issue with Thibs. Thibs is one of the best at preparing for the next game and having a script in hand. He's also been the worse with in game script changes. But some of us will ignore that and say we won so move on.

Why do you think it's a zero sum game and if 1 player happen to be playing well other player can't be doing the same too?

The backcourt was IQ, Grimes, McBride. What do you have against IQ/Grimes/McBride that they should not have gotten the minutes they were getting while RJ was sitting?

They were also doing well and are MUCH better defensive players to go up against Donovan and Garland. And then if RJ did get those minutes, he would have played 35-37 minutes and you would be complaining about his playing trash defense and Thibs playing him too many minutes and then double down by letting us know how Thibs isn't playing Grimes McBride IQ enough.

RJ doesn't carry a team. He gets hot like 1 out of 10 games for a quarter and then has more first quarters where he shoots like shit, leaving him in during that stretch may have been the death of the Knicks because of his lack of shooting and porous defense. Luckily Thibs knows this and took RJ out when he did cause it's most likely that he would miss his next 5 shots.

Knicks won the fucking game and you are not OK with the way things unfolded, that's a tell tale of trying to FIND things that may be wrong, it's kinda pointless man.

Why do you hate IQ, Grimes, McBride? That's the better question.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Question that I can't figure out from last game.

RJ struggled in the 1st half.
RJ played great in the 3rd quarter (didn't miss a shot).
RJ is taken out and doesn't go back into the game until the end of the 4th quarter?

Yes we won, thats great. But please explain that one. RJ is a polarizing player and he might need the same whisperer as Randle. But when RJ has it going, he can carry a team. And in the 3rd he had it going. But it seems like Thibs doesn't sway away from his pre-game script, which is my issue with Thibs. Thibs is one of the best at preparing for the next game and having a script in hand. He's also been the worse with in game script changes. But some of us will ignore that and say we won so move on.

Why do you think it's a zero sum game and if 1 player happen to be playing well other player can't be doing the same too?

The backcourt was IQ, Grimes, McBride. What do you have against IQ/Grimes/McBride that they should not have gotten the minutes they were getting while RJ was sitting?

They were also doing well and are MUCH better defensive players to go up against Donovan and Garland. And then if RJ did get those minutes, he would have played 35-37 minutes and you would be complaining about his playing trash defense and Thibs playing him too many minutes and then double down by letting us know how Thibs isn't playing Grimes McBride IQ enough.

RJ doesn't carry a team. He gets hot like 1 out of 10 games for a quarter and then has more first quarters where he shoots like shit, leaving him in during that stretch may have been the death of the Knicks because of his lack of shooting and porous defense. Luckily Thibs knows this and took RJ out when he did cause it's most likely that he would miss his next 5 shots.

Knicks won the fucking game and you are not OK with the way things unfolded, that's a tell tale of trying to FIND things that may be wrong, it's kinda pointless man.

Why do you hate IQ, Grimes, McBride? That's the better question.

I'll give you one of your answers you give me. Don't know what you're talking about. lol

RJ carried this team towards the end of last season. So we've seen RJ in that role.

All I did was ask a question why. You answered it by saying IQ, Grimes and McBride was giving us better defense. I'm like OK.

Everything after that, not sure where we are going with that convo.

Regarding RJ's minutes, I've never complained about giving RJ minutes when he has it going. Most people complain that RJ should've play so many minutes, if he's stinking it up. Thats a narrative you read in every other knick article. Not me.

My complaints with Thibs, is water under the bridge. Why? Because Thibs has shown that he can change the rotation, the lineups, etc....Don't confuse my compliant with in game changes or managing Randle (which is a difficult task by itself).

I love IQ, Grimes and McBride. And you know that by now, so I'll assume that wasn't a real question.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Question that I can't figure out from last game.

RJ struggled in the 1st half.
RJ played great in the 3rd quarter (didn't miss a shot).
RJ is taken out and doesn't go back into the game until the end of the 4th quarter?

Yes we won, thats great. But please explain that one. RJ is a polarizing player and he might need the same whisperer as Randle. But when RJ has it going, he can carry a team. And in the 3rd he had it going. But it seems like Thibs doesn't sway away from his pre-game script, which is my issue with Thibs. Thibs is one of the best at preparing for the next game and having a script in hand. He's also been the worse with in game script changes. But some of us will ignore that and say we won so move on.

Why do you think it's a zero sum game and if 1 player happen to be playing well other player can't be doing the same too?

The backcourt was IQ, Grimes, McBride. What do you have against IQ/Grimes/McBride that they should not have gotten the minutes they were getting while RJ was sitting?

They were also doing well and are MUCH better defensive players to go up against Donovan and Garland. And then if RJ did get those minutes, he would have played 35-37 minutes and you would be complaining about his playing trash defense and Thibs playing him too many minutes and then double down by letting us know how Thibs isn't playing Grimes McBride IQ enough.

RJ doesn't carry a team. He gets hot like 1 out of 10 games for a quarter and then has more first quarters where he shoots like shit, leaving him in during that stretch may have been the death of the Knicks because of his lack of shooting and porous defense. Luckily Thibs knows this and took RJ out when he did cause it's most likely that he would miss his next 5 shots.

Knicks won the fucking game and you are not OK with the way things unfolded, that's a tell tale of trying to FIND things that may be wrong, it's kinda pointless man.

Why do you hate IQ, Grimes, McBride? That's the better question.

I'll give you one of your answers you give me. Don't know what you're talking about. lol

RJ carried this team towards the end of last season. So we've seen RJ in that role.

All I did was ask a question why. You answered it by saying IQ, Grimes and McBride was giving us better defense. I'm like OK.

Everything after that, not sure where we are going with that convo.

Regarding RJ's minutes, I've never complained about giving RJ minutes when he has it going. Most people complain that RJ should've play so many minutes, if he's stinking it up. Thats a narrative you read in every other knick article. Not me.

My complaints with Thibs, is water under the bridge. Why? Because Thibs has shown that he can change the rotation, the lineups, etc....Don't confuse my compliant with in game changes or managing Randle (which is a difficult task by itself).

I love IQ, Grimes and McBride. And you know that by now, so I'll assume that wasn't a real question.

Do you watch the games?

Do you watch the games?

This year or last year? Overall, too much actually. But the games I missed this year, we got blown out. The games I saw we won. And this year I haven't seen RJ carry anything but a few bricks.

blkexec wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I loved the effort last night but if anyone is ignoring the lack of effort for most of the year it’s a mistake.

I’ve also been around long enough where 2 games out of 4th in early Dec can turn into 2 games out of 10th in March.

Here is hoping to a turn towards great D, young players playing and some wins. Just need to bring the D every game — prior to last night I think we were bottom 5 defensively.

No one is denying the bad performances, the inconsistency, the uncertainty. Just saying the big picture is about taking it all in. Which includes the positive. Very difficult for some fans.

This statement is simply not true. And I agree with the original poster. Ignoring the lack of effort is the mistake. In fact, some knick fans (to my surprise) are ignoring a lot of negatives with this team, which is a mistake, and this train of thought is why we continue to be in mediocrity.

I've always been one of the most optimistic fans in this forum. Mainly because everybody is always doom and gloom. Seems like the fans in this forum have changed over the years which is fine. But we can't just glorify these wins and ignore the issues.

Question that I can't figure out from last game.

RJ struggled in the 1st half.
RJ played great in the 3rd quarter (didn't miss a shot).
RJ is taken out and doesn't go back into the game until the end of the 4th quarter?

Yes we won, thats great. But please explain that one. RJ is a polarizing player and he might need the same whisperer as Randle. But when RJ has it going, he can carry a team. And in the 3rd he had it going. But it seems like Thibs doesn't sway away from his pre-game script, which is my issue with Thibs. Thibs is one of the best at preparing for the next game and having a script in hand. He's also been the worse with in game script changes. But some of us will ignore that and say we won so move on.

Why play RJ until he starts to play badly? They get tired. 2nd night of a back to back.
Thibs does this all the time. Take out guys even though they are playing well. It looks bad but why keep them out longer and degrade.
What if Thibs is trying to shorten RJ's minutes and build up smaller samples were he plays well, and that's a reference point?
You played well, now sit and feel good about it!
Vs, you played well, made some mistakes, now sit and feel bad about why your out?

Im guessing here. We are at fulls strength and RJ needs 5 min less per night on the court. If we been having 3 period issues this is Thibs trying new things?

blkexec wrote:

Do you watch the games?

This year or last year? Overall, too much actually. But the games I missed this year, we got blown out. The games I saw we won. And this year I haven't seen RJ carry anything but a few bricks.

Just didn't know if you had caught last game to know who played when RJ sat.

Back to the thread at hand. I'll keep the same optimistic vibe as the title thread says.

#1. Two games out of 4th seed is encouraging. Doesn't mean we are a playoff team yet, but it's encouraging. And maybe JB is the answer overtime. Seems like Randle has a lot of respect for JB which is huge.

#2. Seven of the Nice guys are under 24 is great to hear and be reminded of. We are a young team constantly developing, so thats a positive reminder.

Beating a good team is great. I remember we couldn't even beat the bad teams so thats progress. I hate losing winnable games and by default I tend to blame the coach in those scenarios. But Thibs is growing and developing himself. So I've backed off of Thibs. He's not perfect, but he's showing that he's willing to change. In game adjustments is an issue, but I'm trusting Thibs to adjust or adapt, because he has in other areas.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Do you watch the games?

This year or last year? Overall, too much actually. But the games I missed this year, we got blown out. The games I saw we won. And this year I haven't seen RJ carry anything but a few bricks.

Just didn't know if you had caught last game to know who played when RJ sat.

No I missed that part. Thats why I asked the question? To be honest, I thought we would fold in the 3rd, ran some errands at half time. I heard someone bring this up and was curious what happened. RJ has been in a slump for ever. And in the 3rd he's finally hitting some shots. So just asking.

I saw Deuce come in the game early at the 5min mark and I almost fell out of my chair. Then when I realized Rose and Cam never came into the game, I was like "Thibs and his tight rotation". Thibs wins are tied to his rotations. Deep team, he seems to struggle to get wins. Tight rotation, we seem to win more games. I love Cam like a love Deuce, as far as their defense. I'm curious to see if Thibs will use that same rotation, or will Deuce sit and Rose back in? Just trying to understand this coaches thought process on who's playing who's not and why.