It sucks... these guys have been together since the Fizdale/Miller season. Randle holds the ball in the high post, RJ is a slasher, yet it feels like they never even pass it to each other.
I would expect 2 guys in their 4th year together to show some semblance of chemistry and there appears to be zero.
Time to break this duo up and its not going to be (sorry folks) Randle who is a CAA/Wildcat and on a good contract. Thoughts? Give it more time? Move one of these guys?
fishmike wrote:It sucks... these guys have been together since the Fizdale/Miller season. Randle holds the ball in the high post, RJ is a slasher, yet it feels like they never even pass it to each other.I would expect 2 guys in their 4th year together to show some semblance of chemistry and there appears to be zero.
Time to break this duo up and its not going to be (sorry folks) Randle who is a CAA/Wildcat and on a good contract. Thoughts? Give it more time? Move one of these guys?
I agree that one needs to be moved but I think it's going to either be Randle or both since they didn't move RJ in the DM deal.
100% guess on my part: I think the FO knows they have to move both eventually. Got to get some type of value back so it's a long process that may stretch multiple seasons.
To win in this league, you have to have wing players who can shoot distance, defend perimeter. For big wings or PFs, you have to defend on perimeter, be a help defender, attach rim while putting up some semblance of distance shooting.
Neither is the bread and butter for RJ/Randle, even projecting them out IMHO.
Both are also, at best, 4th of 5th type players on a deep playoff team but are in the role of #1-3 right now on current Knicks team (but understandably so).
I think both ARE adjusting downward from being focus of team to being more high level role players.
All I know is it is hard to have a high level defensive team with these 2 nutballs playing a lot of minutes.
Dang, back to the chemistry. I think RJ wants to fit in and gain chemistry with players, Randle is in his own head and has no sense of team chemistry, like at all.
martin wrote:100% guess on my part: I think the FO knows they have to move both eventually. Got to get some type of value back so it's a long process that may stretch multiple seasons.To win in this league, you have to have wing players who can shoot distance, defend perimeter. For big wings or PFs, you have to defend on perimeter, be a help defender, attach rim while putting up some semblance of distance shooting.
Neither is the bread and butter for RJ/Randle, even projecting them out IMHO.
Both are also, at best, 4th of 5th type players on a deep playoff team but are in the role of #1-3 right now on current Knicks team (but understandably so).
I think both ARE adjusting downward from being focus of team to being more high level role players.
All I know is it is hard to have a high level defensive team with these 2 nutballs playing a lot of minutes.
Dang, back to the chemistry. I think RJ wants to fit in and gain chemistry with players, Randle is in his own head and has no sense of team chemistry, like at all.
the bold is the big thing... people dont understand NBA economics when they say "we draft Obi, resigned Randle so clearly have no plan"
You dont let productive guys like that walk. Knicks need to flip these guys for something that's gonna help, plain and simple. I think Zach and his stupid contract make a viable trading partner
I'm reminded of Phil Jackson calling Melo and Stat an awkward fit.
Agree with all above - but Randle's value (guessing) went from something like receiving 2 first rounders (peak) to now having to attach a first to move him - unless it's for a worse contract a team is desperate to move on from. Do you think the Bulls would rather have Randle's long-term deal vs Lavines? Not sure...
And what would RJ's value be currently? Peak I would have said 2 first rounders and now maybe 1 first rounder? I would move RJ for Lavine because he is a better outside shooter and shot creator. Randle I would move for anything just to free up cap space - I am not interested in wasting another season rehabbing his play/image to land a heavily protected (late) first.
It's a clunky fit on both sides of the court. Neither were very good defenders to begin with, and both have regressed this season. Offensively, I see two guys that seemed to be playing for themselves and whatever individual goals they set during the off season. The selfishness and tunnel vision has been tough to watch at times. RJ and Randle are our highest usage players (actually RJ and Brunson are tied) and both are most comfortable overdribbling and attacking the similar spaces on the floor. Neither one of them can be counted on to stretch the floor and provide space for our most important player which is Brunson.
If I had to pick one to stick with, it would be RJ and that may be by default. At the very least, during the pandemic year, RJ showed the ability to slash off the ball and hit the corner 3 which is what we need him to do now. Unfortunately, I think RJ has an inflated belief in his abilities. Standing behind the 3 pt line, waiting for Brunson to kick it to him and or flashing backdoor may not help him reach his individual goal of being a future all star. But, like I said, we have seen it before...Also, his 4 year deal hasn't even kicked in yet. If I'm another team, the only thing enticing about RJ's numbers are his age. All the other numbers are putrid.
Randle wont be easy to move but it depends on what we are looking to get back. If we are trying to get back an allstar or a player on the cusp of being an allstar, then we will have trouble moving him. But, moving Randle to a team that feels they need one more scorer to push them into contention; like Phoenix for instance, then that would be ideal. That's a team that needs another scorer, preferably off the bench...Problem is, I am not sure if they would commit to his long term contract.
Really think a lateral move for John Collins could help both teams. We get back a less usage PF who can score and rebound enough. They get another shot creator when Trae gets fatigued. They have enough defense around Randle. Not sure about Collins defensive numbers but assuming it's not far off from Randle.
I’d do a Randle and Fournier for Vucevic’s expiring contract and an injured Lonzo Ball. Ball has one more year than Fournier and who knows, he might get his knee right by next season
Fish playing the role of unifier, finding a topic we can all agree on.
I'd sell RJ to Toronto- I haven't looked at their roster to see what get's out- with the premise that RJ just needs some momma's love.
And if I can move Randle- great. He needs a stronger personality (LA? Either?)
I would like decent value back for RJ. If I can avoid sending out assets or taking super crap for Randle, I do that - he is a bit of addition by subtraction.
Of course, my preference would be another coach first to see if I can reclaim value from both before trading them - a strong voice to right Randle, a better approach with RJ.
Zero? Thats a bit strong?
Nada?
Let me guess - you want to trade Randle?
jskinny35 wrote:Agree with all above - but Randle's value (guessing) went from something like receiving 2 first rounders (peak) to now having to attach a first to move him - unless it's for a worse contract a team is desperate to move on from. Do you think the Bulls would rather have Randle's long-term deal vs Lavines? Not sure...And what would RJ's value be currently? Peak I would have said 2 first rounders and now maybe 1 first rounder? I would move RJ for Lavine because he is a better outside shooter and shot creator. Randle I would move for anything just to free up cap space - I am not interested in wasting another season rehabbing his play/image to land a heavily protected (late) first.
Randle has three years $27M average, Lavine 4 years $45M average. You think that's the same?
In retrospect, RJ should have been shipped out for DM. But in retrospect is easy. Since he has been here it has been work to focus on his positives. Kid just has no basketball IQ. Slow, does not see floor well and is a bit selfish. I would move him, Obi, EF, Rose for shooters that can defend.
I know IQ and Grimes are going to be good. Like JB, until we can get an elite PG who won't give up so much on D and passes more. Randle is what he has been since he got here. Bull offensively, good rebounder, limited IQ, consistent offensive producer. Think teams have trouble dealing with him. Especially if he shoots less threes and has a competent backup who can play 25 minutes. Okay with a trade for a legitimate upgrade. I am intrigued by Cam. Not high on any other one of our yoots. Time to ship them out for some additional chances at the draft lottery.
It's true. Neither is a great shooter from the outside, more like a streaky one, if that. Both would like to receive kick outs but, neither are capable/willing to providing a said kick out for the other. We have not seen any PnR from them , that might be a result of our offensive system and not a lack of ability/skill from them players. They are both finishers at the hoop, Randle being much better at finishing and RJ being much better at getting there. Overall we have seen negative chemistry between the two , given the possibilities
