Knicks · Win Now Move Without Changing the 2024 OffSeason (page 1)
Knicks Trade
Fournier
Reddish
Hart (trade kicker)
Toppin
Knicks 2023 (Top 10 protected)
Dallas 2023
Pacers Trade
Buddy Hield
Myles Turner
Boston 2023 #1
SAS 2023 2nd
Knicks Roster
Brunson/IQ/McBride
Grimes/Hield/IQ
Barrett/Grimes/IQ
Randle/Turner/Sims
Turner/Robinson/Sims
Ok, why?
Toppin isn't going to get much run here behind Randle the way Randle is playing. I think it makes sense to move him. He's the real value to Indiana in the trade. The Dallas and Knicks picks are kind of smoke and mirrors to create a visual for Indiana - they are just moving up 5 to 10 spots on each pick. We still have two picks, we are just moving back to the end of the first and the start of the second. Should still be some real value there for development picks that don't impact future salary cap much.
Hield makes 20mm next year. Turner is a FA. That Turner/Robinson front court is a menace. Robinson can get a little more offensive action in the second unit for the balance of this year. Hart's numbers have been questionable
McBride and Sims lose on this. But not really. Looking directly at the post-season, I think Turner and Hield are more "ready". You still have McBride when you need a stop, but I think they solidify the weaknesses in the second unit (Hart and scoring) and give the Knicks a solid 9 man with 2 replacements for injury/fouls issues.
Robinson might look like he is losing here. You could switch Turner and Robinson and just let Turner have more role in the second unit. But I think this trade makes them more likely to advance in the playoffs and have better backup if someone goes down.
If I'm Indiana I'd ask for McBride and Sims too and I don't think the Knicks would hesitate including if they thought the bigger idea was a solid path.
Good stuff.
Bright side is between both Miles and Mitch you may get 82 games out of them, combined.
Also, Indiana is winning. They may have changed paths because of it.
Heid can be had for Obi and Cam. Why waste picks just for a Myles inclusion.
We have been hearing how good he is but if you watch their games, he has many moments of invisibility.
Don't feel that is why we have collected all these assets.
I would pass and focus on getting something back for Cam, Rose and Fournier.
Hopefully a SG or SF to help second unit. Which should be stronger with Obi helping out.
They have same record as us. Not the disaster most of us though they'd be.
Thats a big trade for both teams. I don't know enough about Hield vs EF to say they'd do that for one extra year on EF.
Turner starts and Mitch backs him up? Im not feeling that either.
There might be something there if you scale it back or looking to dump EF for Hield and then let him walk.
I think if we are resigning Turner Thats a whole other thing. Makes Mitch a very expensive back up in an era were Centers are not primary.
Im not that high on Turner and apparently not sure what the rest of the NBA thinks either as Indy if they have tried has yet to find a suitable deal. Turner brings some good offense but with Randle back to his better self how much more do we need and if Turner is on the perimeter our offense boards are in sad shape.
Or........This really propels us to contender status?
Well thought out and easy to punch holes in any fan trade recommendation.
I'd' think Mitch with his contract could be a very big trade chip if you do this.
And if you do this, then more pieces to work thru.
Intriguing for sure.
EwingsGlass wrote:This has been thrown around a bit and discussions are probably happening. Nothing much new here except my willingness to pull the trigger.Knicks Trade
Fournier
Reddish
Hart (trade kicker)
Toppin
Knicks 2023 (Top 10 protected)
Dallas 2023Pacers Trade
Buddy Hield
Myles Turner
Boston 2023 #1
SAS 2023 2ndKnicks Roster
Brunson/IQ/McBride
Grimes/Hield/IQ
Barrett/Grimes/IQ
Randle/Turner/Sims
Turner/Robinson/SimsOk, why?
Toppin isn't going to get much run here behind Randle the way Randle is playing. I think it makes sense to move him. He's the real value to Indiana in the trade. The Dallas and Knicks picks are kind of smoke and mirrors to create a visual for Indiana - they are just moving up 5 to 10 spots on each pick. We still have two picks, we are just moving back to the end of the first and the start of the second. Should still be some real value there for development picks that don't impact future salary cap much.Hield makes 20mm next year. Turner is a FA. That Turner/Robinson front court is a menace. Robinson can get a little more offensive action in the second unit for the balance of this year. Hart's numbers have been questionable
McBride and Sims lose on this. But not really. Looking directly at the post-season, I think Turner and Hield are more "ready". You still have McBride when you need a stop, but I think they solidify the weaknesses in the second unit (Hart and scoring) and give the Knicks a solid 9 man with 2 replacements for injury/fouls issues.
Robinson might look like he is losing here. You could switch Turner and Robinson and just let Turner have more role in the second unit. But I think this trade makes them more likely to advance in the playoffs and have better backup if someone goes down.
If Fournier isn’t a full time rotation player I would be concerned that Hield is too similar of a player with the same weaknesses in defense.
Nalod wrote:Read they are talking extension with Turner.
They have same record as us. Not the disaster most of us though they'd be.
Thats a big trade for both teams. I don't know enough about Hield vs EF to say they'd do that for one extra year on EF.
Turner starts and Mitch backs him up? Im not feeling that either.
There might be something there if you scale it back or looking to dump EF for Hield and then let him walk.
I think if we are resigning Turner Thats a whole other thing. Makes Mitch a very expensive back up in an era were Centers are not primary.
Im not that high on Turner and apparently not sure what the rest of the NBA thinks either as Indy if they have tried has yet to find a suitable deal. Turner brings some good offense but with Randle back to his better self how much more do we need and if Turner is on the perimeter our offense boards are in sad shape.
Or........This really propels us to contender status?
Well thought out and easy to punch holes in any fan trade recommendation.
I'd' think Mitch with his contract could be a very big trade chip if you do this.
And if you do this, then more pieces to work thru.
Intriguing for sure.
Turner turned it down. I think this is about taking a swing this year as our advanced stats are showing that we can hang with the big gun teams. I’m basically using this years picks and unused players to fill in a couple gaps in our rotation. On a championship run, players accept different roles. Turner is a rental, that’s why I’m asking back the later draft picks.
I’m not trading Mitch and he is still the C of this team. But I am moving Hart and replacing him with a higher caliber C.
EF vs Hield isn’t for one more year of EF. That year is a team option. Salary is a wash. They get Toppin Reddish and move up in the draft.
Rookie wrote:I don’t get the point of all this if you are not resigning Heild or Turner. You’re giving us assets, moving down in the draft for rentals on a minor upgrade in talent. Do you have numbers on how these moves affect 2024 cap?
1) Consider it belief in the team and attempt to go for a chip this year.
2) Replacing Harts minutes with Turner’s minutes isn’t a minor upgrade. If you take a look at the 5 man plus minus Hart is actually underperforming in most of our lineups. I don’t want to put too much weight into this, half a season isn’t overwhelming evidence, but I don’t think it’s past the eye test to say that Turner/Robinson would be a better C pairing than Robinson/Hart. I see weaknesses at C around the league. Putting Turner and his 78% FT% into the last 30 seconds of the game probably wins the last Dallas game.
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanc...
3) Hield vs Fournier. I may not be right on this swap. Kind of a different is better move without much fact basis behind it. Hield having a good season, but his defense is suspect. We might be better with a guy like Bogs. That said, if you look at Hield, he is a hustle player that might just need a defensive system to fit in. He moves without the ball far more than Fournier.
When you break it down, I’m pretty much trading Toppin and a couple draft slots for Turner and removing a few negative net ratings from from 5 man lineup stat lines. There is no pressing need to make this trade, but I think Turner over Hart is better suited for the post season.
EwingsGlass wrote:Rookie wrote:I don’t get the point of all this if you are not resigning Heild or Turner. You’re giving us assets, moving down in the draft for rentals on a minor upgrade in talent. Do you have numbers on how these moves affect 2024 cap?1) Consider it belief in the team and attempt to go for a chip this year.
2) Replacing Harts minutes with Turner’s minutes isn’t a minor upgrade. If you take a look at the 5 man plus minus Hart is actually underperforming in most of our lineups. I don’t want to put too much weight into this, half a season isn’t overwhelming evidence, but I don’t think it’s past the eye test to say that Turner/Robinson would be a better C pairing than Robinson/Hart. I see weaknesses at C around the league. Putting Turner and his 78% FT% into the last 30 seconds of the game probably wins the last Dallas game.https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanc...
3) Hield vs Fournier. I may not be right on this swap. Kind of a different is better move without much fact basis behind it. Hield having a good season, but his defense is suspect. We might be better with a guy like Bogs. That said, if you look at Hield, he is a hustle player that might just need a defensive system to fit in. He moves without the ball far more than Fournier.
When you break it down, I’m pretty much trading Toppin and a couple draft slots for Turner and removing a few negative net ratings from from 5 man lineup stat lines. There is no pressing need to make this trade, but I think Turner over Hart is better suited for the post season.
I don’t think you can take a 26yo starter on an expiring contract playing 30 min a night, cut his min in half and bring him off the bench and get their best version. They might be pros but they are still human. Right now team chemistry is good, why risk it. I think you would have to trade Mitch for this to work.
Im also not ready to give up on Obi. He is good in his role as a 16 min energy guy back up to Randle. I think Obi could become a value resigning. No one is giving him the bag. Obi at 5M per is decent value. I let Obi play out his contract and look at it after next season. Let him test the market and then decide.
Other than being overpaid, Fournier is alright in his role. I like the idea of trying to upgrade talent for this year I’m just not convinced this works. We really need an all star level player. I would also consider a small ball Center to replace hart as an option. Let that 2nd unit run. If you want to go big, you still have Sims locked in for 3 years
BigDaddyG wrote:Not a major move, but I think Justin Champagnie can play. NY native to boot. Recently got waived and I'm not sure why. The kind of combo forward the team can use for the more physical wings in the league.
Don’t know anything about him and not much to see in his stat lines. Wikipedia says projected late first rounder who went undrafted. Hardly played. An upgrade over the end of the bench guys perhaps but I think their contracts were just guaranteed.
He is from Staten Island!
Rookie wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Rookie wrote:I don’t get the point of all this if you are not resigning Heild or Turner. You’re giving us assets, moving down in the draft for rentals on a minor upgrade in talent. Do you have numbers on how these moves affect 2024 cap?1) Consider it belief in the team and attempt to go for a chip this year.
2) Replacing Harts minutes with Turner’s minutes isn’t a minor upgrade. If you take a look at the 5 man plus minus Hart is actually underperforming in most of our lineups. I don’t want to put too much weight into this, half a season isn’t overwhelming evidence, but I don’t think it’s past the eye test to say that Turner/Robinson would be a better C pairing than Robinson/Hart. I see weaknesses at C around the league. Putting Turner and his 78% FT% into the last 30 seconds of the game probably wins the last Dallas game.https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanc...
3) Hield vs Fournier. I may not be right on this swap. Kind of a different is better move without much fact basis behind it. Hield having a good season, but his defense is suspect. We might be better with a guy like Bogs. That said, if you look at Hield, he is a hustle player that might just need a defensive system to fit in. He moves without the ball far more than Fournier.
When you break it down, I’m pretty much trading Toppin and a couple draft slots for Turner and removing a few negative net ratings from from 5 man lineup stat lines. There is no pressing need to make this trade, but I think Turner over Hart is better suited for the post season.
I don’t think you can take a 26yo starter on an expiring contract playing 30 min a night, cut his min in half and bring him off the bench and get their best version. They might be pros but they are still human. Right now team chemistry is good, why risk it. I think you would have to trade Mitch for this to work.
Im also not ready to give up on Obi. He is good in his role as a 16 min energy guy back up to Randle. I think Obi could become a value resigning. No one is giving him the bag. Obi at 5M per is decent value. I let Obi play out his contract and look at it after next season. Let him test the market and then decide.
Other than being overpaid, Fournier is alright in his role. I like the idea of trying to upgrade talent for this year I’m just not convinced this works. We really need an all star level player. I would also consider a small ball Center to replace hart as an option. Let that 2nd unit run. If you want to go big, you still have Sims locked in for 3 years
You are taking that Miles minutes allocation at its worst. You might start Turner and bring Robinson off the bench. You will have nights when big men get in foul trouble. Or injured. Turner can also play the PF role as he did before Sabonis got to Indiana. Point is, this is a win now move to take a swing at this year. And I do expect a professional athlete to do whatever it takes to try and win a championship this year. He can make his decision on where his next contract is next year in free agency. And if this works, and you advance in the playoffs, maybe win one, who knows. Maybe you resign Turner. I think Robinson will do whatever it takes to win, even if it means coming off the bench.
I understand the not wanting to give up on Toppin, but you have to give to get. And he just isn’t going to get playing time with “this Randle”. He is an expiring asset and has value currently. He might be a force in this league given Opportunity. Randle is just making that opportunity hard to come by.
Fournier is a team guy. I get it. He may have better value than he has here. He has an unfortunate effect on this team that other teams out score us while he is on the floor. Hield may not be better, but I am trading Fournier’s static motion for a guy with the same faults but who hustles. And yeah, I’m turning another starter into a bench player.
If you have an all star that boosts this rotation this year, I’m listening. I looked and don’t think it exists. I think Turner might be a long term hold here, but am willing to risk some draft position on that. Note, you knock off Boston and you actually received the better pick in the trade. And no one else in the East gets Turner. He’s a bad matchup for Robinson. There are meta moves in this trade. You want to pry Duarte out of them? Go ahead. Leave Hield out? Probably still works. But the key is moving Turner and taking a swing at Boston this year.
KnickDanger wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Not a major move, but I think Justin Champagnie can play. NY native to boot. Recently got waived and I'm not sure why. The kind of combo forward the team can use for the more physical wings in the league.Don’t know anything about him and not much to see in his stat lines. Wikipedia says projected late first rounder who went undrafted. Hardly played. An upgrade over the end of the bench guys perhaps but I think their contracts were just guaranteed.
He is from Staten Island!
Yeah I saw they guaranteed Arch and Svi. Saw Justin and his twin, Julian, play quote a bit in the Big East. Julian showed some flashes last year and that's why I brought him. Even if it6 a two-way, he d make better us of it than Trevor Keels. I'll go a step a further and say I could see being more of a contributor than Cam later in their careers. Not that he's more talented, just that I can see him being more consistent in his role.
EwingsGlass wrote:Rookie wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Rookie wrote:I don’t get the point of all this if you are not resigning Heild or Turner. You’re giving us assets, moving down in the draft for rentals on a minor upgrade in talent. Do you have numbers on how these moves affect 2024 cap?1) Consider it belief in the team and attempt to go for a chip this year.
2) Replacing Harts minutes with Turner’s minutes isn’t a minor upgrade. If you take a look at the 5 man plus minus Hart is actually underperforming in most of our lineups. I don’t want to put too much weight into this, half a season isn’t overwhelming evidence, but I don’t think it’s past the eye test to say that Turner/Robinson would be a better C pairing than Robinson/Hart. I see weaknesses at C around the league. Putting Turner and his 78% FT% into the last 30 seconds of the game probably wins the last Dallas game.https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanc...
3) Hield vs Fournier. I may not be right on this swap. Kind of a different is better move without much fact basis behind it. Hield having a good season, but his defense is suspect. We might be better with a guy like Bogs. That said, if you look at Hield, he is a hustle player that might just need a defensive system to fit in. He moves without the ball far more than Fournier.
When you break it down, I’m pretty much trading Toppin and a couple draft slots for Turner and removing a few negative net ratings from from 5 man lineup stat lines. There is no pressing need to make this trade, but I think Turner over Hart is better suited for the post season.
I don’t think you can take a 26yo starter on an expiring contract playing 30 min a night, cut his min in half and bring him off the bench and get their best version. They might be pros but they are still human. Right now team chemistry is good, why risk it. I think you would have to trade Mitch for this to work.
Im also not ready to give up on Obi. He is good in his role as a 16 min energy guy back up to Randle. I think Obi could become a value resigning. No one is giving him the bag. Obi at 5M per is decent value. I let Obi play out his contract and look at it after next season. Let him test the market and then decide.
Other than being overpaid, Fournier is alright in his role. I like the idea of trying to upgrade talent for this year I’m just not convinced this works. We really need an all star level player. I would also consider a small ball Center to replace hart as an option. Let that 2nd unit run. If you want to go big, you still have Sims locked in for 3 years
You are taking that Miles minutes allocation at its worst. You might start Turner and bring Robinson off the bench. You will have nights when big men get in foul trouble. Or injured. Turner can also play the PF role as he did before Sabonis got to Indiana. Point is, this is a win now move to take a swing at this year. And I do expect a professional athlete to do whatever it takes to try and win a championship this year. He can make his decision on where his next contract is next year in free agency. And if this works, and you advance in the playoffs, maybe win one, who knows. Maybe you resign Turner. I think Robinson will do whatever it takes to win, even if it means coming off the bench.
I understand the not wanting to give up on Toppin, but you have to give to get. And he just isn’t going to get playing time with “this Randle”. He is an expiring asset and has value currently. He might be a force in this league given Opportunity. Randle is just making that opportunity hard to come by.
Fournier is a team guy. I get it. He may have better value than he has here. He has an unfortunate effect on this team that other teams out score us while he is on the floor. Hield may not be better, but I am trading Fournier’s static motion for a guy with the same faults but who hustles. And yeah, I’m turning another starter into a bench player.
If you have an all star that boosts this rotation this year, I’m listening. I looked and don’t think it exists. I think Turner might be a long term hold here, but am willing to risk some draft position on that. Note, you knock off Boston and you actually received the better pick in the trade. And no one else in the East gets Turner. He’s a bad matchup for Robinson. There are meta moves in this trade. You want to pry Duarte out of them? Go ahead. Leave Hield out? Probably still works. But the key is moving Turner and taking a swing at Boston this year.
I would look at a small ball Center to replace Hart. Maybe someone like Isaiah Stewart.