I'm not saying Thibs' minutes distribution is beyond reproach -- I scratch my head at the doghouse phenomenon in particular. But I wonder how many of the loudest critics would be first in line to ream him out if the currently 6th seeded Knicks who have been playing good ball and winning games lately lost some of those games because the coach didn't lean on those he trusts. Just wondering.
Obi leg might have been bothersome for some time prior to sitting out. his play prior was not up to last years standard.
He is in the rotation and needs to demonstrate what ever he did to earn minutes last year again. Maybe the bar got higher for this team?
And Randle is not making it easy for him.
I agree, trade him perhaps.
Toronto never goes big but they are athletic and big across the board. Only at the C does it hurt them. And it not like Mrob on offense kills anyone.
The 2nd unit needs a shooter who can also play defence at a respectable level. as I is a pure shooter and an energy guy. Deuce is not ready and might not be an nba player. Science is more experienced. Give Svi’s a chance
IQ has stepped up very nicely. Toppin hopefully can get back to where he was last year. Thats on him, not minutes. Do it and if team succeeds he stays in. Thibs does this? Yes.
Is Obi's leg 100%?
Franco, you pulled RJ and Randles 3pt % as a way of proving a point. Fact is the shot did not fall and they took it to the rim and got to the line too! There was a positive in that.
We lost the game. Not by much. Barnes was very good and FVV was a killer.
So the problem I’m seeing is Thibs trust on the offensive side. And duece for example was an important part of the Knicks turn around, along with grimes. What deuce provided was defensive energy that spreads to other players and improves the teams defense. Well seems like lately the teams offense and defense has been inconsistent during crunch time or 4th quarter. But I think deuce should still be on the roster, even as the last player on the bench because deuce has a role that he can perfect. A specialist on defense and he’s a disruptor. With obi, he hasn’t defined a role yet. I thought he would be a 3 and transition player vs your typical 3 and D player. I think eventually he can become that but right now he’s just a low efficient jump shooter who needs more mins and plays for him to shine on offense.
And finding a shooter who plays defense is hard to do. We had bullock and fans wanted him out fast. We have Burks and traded him to Detroit. I think we had Courtney Lee and traded him away. So we’ve had 3 and D players. That’s not the solution.
WE NEED THIBS TYPE PLAYERS. It doesn’t matter what label we put on them. If Thibs doesn’t trust them they are not playing. Thibs hand picked deuce and he wasn’t a regular rotation player until recently. And Thibs hand picked him from the draft. So as soon as we figure out who’s considered a thibs player, we will go around in circles and end up in the same spot. If thibs is a keeper, then he needs his guys in order to compete.
Knixkik wrote:CanItGetAnyWorse wrote:Agreed but I wouldn't mind us moving off of Hartenstein. Deuce is great defensively but we need much more offense from him.
This team needs to consolidate for another bench player. I think he already exists in Cam but for whatever reasons (I think practice reasons) Thibs just doesn't like the guy.)
We are going to be exhausted come playoff time if Thibs doesn't get a great bench player. Other teams come playoff time raise their defensive effort and we are a bit normal then.
Moving away from Hartenstein is only realistic if we have a replacement. I’m guessing it happens this offseason when we can sign another center to compete with Sims for backup minutes. Hartenstein isn’t bad for a backup, he’s just not the ideal fit. His shooting and rim protection just hasn’t been as originally advertised.
I know Hartenstein is more experienced, can hit the outside shot (on occasion) and passes well (I hear) but tbh, I'd rather just go with Sims. He is a bit like a mini Mitch in that his offense is mostly put backs (but I'd say he is a slightly better repertoire with his push shot and hook), rebounding and defense. From what I've seen, he is a better defender than Hart. They said Hart was hurt earlier and maybe he still is a bit not healed, or maybe Thibs is showcasing him for a trade. Wish he'd do that with Cam. 
As others have said, whoever we get, it really needs to be approved by Thibs. We have the assets and I'd only move the protected picks for a bench guy. I'm sure the front office is still wanting a star and wants to retain assets for that. I am averse to appeasing Thibs (for better bench players) just to get somewhat better and not really compete. We still need that star and if we can't trade for one directly, our best chance is using assets in this next draft.
fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:Knixkik wrote:blkexec wrote:franco12 wrote:I like Fish's suggestion of trading for Westbrook. Of course, the second after we do a trade like that (for an extra body), Thibs will stop trusting the guy we trade for.I'm not ready to accept the premise that Obi and McBride can't contribute.
I think Obi needs to be featured in the 2nd unit. We have to run plays for him.
And can we get Fournier some minutes.
If we're going to lose games going with 6 players - which may end with a quick first round exit- why not going with 8 or 9, try to develop McBride and Obi- and if we miss the play offs, we have actually accomplished more - finding out if McBride and Obi are keepers and getting a chance of a lottery pick vs mid round first?
Agree
Deuce and Toppin are getting minutes. I don’t think there’s anything we can really learn about them in 20 mins that we can’t learn in 12. They are rotation players right now who simply aren’t doing enough to earn beyond that. And it’s not a knock on them, particularly deuce. He was a 2nd round pick 2 years ago and I think he’s getting an opportunity that few second round picks get, especially on winning teams.
'I don't feel tardy!'
I don't feel like we are a winning team. We're an injury to Randle or Brunson away from another losing streak and staring up at the play in.
And for Obi - he showed last year what he can do if given time and focus.
There is a big difference from being out there for a short stretch and getting 12 minutes vs. being featured, asked to run plays and shoot over 20+.
We really only started to win when we got Grimes back and McBride into the rotation to play with energy. I think there was a stat showing our record when some of these players get 20 mins being really good.
I think the statement that Thibs only trusts a few players is true - and maybe he is right. If Obi can't contribute to 'winning', he should be traded.
Now - I think we would have had a better chance yesterday of winning if Obi had gotten more meaningful minutes. Why is Thibs playing RJ 49 minutes when he is shooting like garbage from 3?
Obi was 2 of 4 from the field, 1 for 1 from 3 in 11 minutes.
We got 2 points out of Hart.
RJ & Randle combined for 3 of 15 from 3. The second of a back to back, and they showed they're not super human.
I know it's hard to go small against Toronto - but I also know Thibs doesn't like to ever go small.
were arent that good... you are right, but that's ok when the rotation is < 24 years old. We are literally learning to win game by game here and doing a decent job.Thibs likes aggressive players that attack the rim and Westbrook is 100% that and he's a great disher which guys like IQ/Obi/Hart (the guy's he would run with) would really benefit from. Its a 1 year rental (or maybe we love him and he comes back in that role cause phuck it he loves NYC, who knows). Point is its a short term commitment and helps our roster some (Rose has to wanna go, and I think he's enjoy playing w/ Lebron)
I wish Thibs would give a little more rope to Obi & McBride and heck Fournier - but his spots aren't changing and I now 100% agree with your idea of adding Westbrook or Grant or someone like that - a veteran that can defend and hold their own in the offense.
franco12 wrote:fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:Knixkik wrote:blkexec wrote:franco12 wrote:I like Fish's suggestion of trading for Westbrook. Of course, the second after we do a trade like that (for an extra body), Thibs will stop trusting the guy we trade for.I'm not ready to accept the premise that Obi and McBride can't contribute.
I think Obi needs to be featured in the 2nd unit. We have to run plays for him.
And can we get Fournier some minutes.
If we're going to lose games going with 6 players - which may end with a quick first round exit- why not going with 8 or 9, try to develop McBride and Obi- and if we miss the play offs, we have actually accomplished more - finding out if McBride and Obi are keepers and getting a chance of a lottery pick vs mid round first?
Agree
Deuce and Toppin are getting minutes. I don’t think there’s anything we can really learn about them in 20 mins that we can’t learn in 12. They are rotation players right now who simply aren’t doing enough to earn beyond that. And it’s not a knock on them, particularly deuce. He was a 2nd round pick 2 years ago and I think he’s getting an opportunity that few second round picks get, especially on winning teams.
'I don't feel tardy!'
I don't feel like we are a winning team. We're an injury to Randle or Brunson away from another losing streak and staring up at the play in.
And for Obi - he showed last year what he can do if given time and focus.
There is a big difference from being out there for a short stretch and getting 12 minutes vs. being featured, asked to run plays and shoot over 20+.
We really only started to win when we got Grimes back and McBride into the rotation to play with energy. I think there was a stat showing our record when some of these players get 20 mins being really good.
I think the statement that Thibs only trusts a few players is true - and maybe he is right. If Obi can't contribute to 'winning', he should be traded.
Now - I think we would have had a better chance yesterday of winning if Obi had gotten more meaningful minutes. Why is Thibs playing RJ 49 minutes when he is shooting like garbage from 3?
Obi was 2 of 4 from the field, 1 for 1 from 3 in 11 minutes.
We got 2 points out of Hart.
RJ & Randle combined for 3 of 15 from 3. The second of a back to back, and they showed they're not super human.
I know it's hard to go small against Toronto - but I also know Thibs doesn't like to ever go small.
were arent that good... you are right, but that's ok when the rotation is < 24 years old. We are literally learning to win game by game here and doing a decent job.Thibs likes aggressive players that attack the rim and Westbrook is 100% that and he's a great disher which guys like IQ/Obi/Hart (the guy's he would run with) would really benefit from. Its a 1 year rental (or maybe we love him and he comes back in that role cause phuck it he loves NYC, who knows). Point is its a short term commitment and helps our roster some (Rose has to wanna go, and I think he's enjoy playing w/ Lebron)
I wish Thibs would give a little more rope to Obi & McBride and heck Fournier - but his spots aren't changing and I now 100% agree with your idea of adding Westbrook or Grant or someone like that - a veteran that can defend and hold their own in the offense.
The question is does Thibs agree. He moves to his own beat. I thought I had him figured out as far as the type of players he like, but I was wrong. He clearly has another way to justify PT outside of what we see on TV. So that’s why it’s hard to guess which players thibs will play or not play. No clue.
blkexec wrote:franco12 wrote:fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:Knixkik wrote:blkexec wrote:franco12 wrote:I like Fish's suggestion of trading for Westbrook. Of course, the second after we do a trade like that (for an extra body), Thibs will stop trusting the guy we trade for.I'm not ready to accept the premise that Obi and McBride can't contribute.
I think Obi needs to be featured in the 2nd unit. We have to run plays for him.
And can we get Fournier some minutes.
If we're going to lose games going with 6 players - which may end with a quick first round exit- why not going with 8 or 9, try to develop McBride and Obi- and if we miss the play offs, we have actually accomplished more - finding out if McBride and Obi are keepers and getting a chance of a lottery pick vs mid round first?
Agree
Deuce and Toppin are getting minutes. I don’t think there’s anything we can really learn about them in 20 mins that we can’t learn in 12. They are rotation players right now who simply aren’t doing enough to earn beyond that. And it’s not a knock on them, particularly deuce. He was a 2nd round pick 2 years ago and I think he’s getting an opportunity that few second round picks get, especially on winning teams.
'I don't feel tardy!'
I don't feel like we are a winning team. We're an injury to Randle or Brunson away from another losing streak and staring up at the play in.
And for Obi - he showed last year what he can do if given time and focus.
There is a big difference from being out there for a short stretch and getting 12 minutes vs. being featured, asked to run plays and shoot over 20+.
We really only started to win when we got Grimes back and McBride into the rotation to play with energy. I think there was a stat showing our record when some of these players get 20 mins being really good.
I think the statement that Thibs only trusts a few players is true - and maybe he is right. If Obi can't contribute to 'winning', he should be traded.
Now - I think we would have had a better chance yesterday of winning if Obi had gotten more meaningful minutes. Why is Thibs playing RJ 49 minutes when he is shooting like garbage from 3?
Obi was 2 of 4 from the field, 1 for 1 from 3 in 11 minutes.
We got 2 points out of Hart.
RJ & Randle combined for 3 of 15 from 3. The second of a back to back, and they showed they're not super human.
I know it's hard to go small against Toronto - but I also know Thibs doesn't like to ever go small.
were arent that good... you are right, but that's ok when the rotation is < 24 years old. We are literally learning to win game by game here and doing a decent job.Thibs likes aggressive players that attack the rim and Westbrook is 100% that and he's a great disher which guys like IQ/Obi/Hart (the guy's he would run with) would really benefit from. Its a 1 year rental (or maybe we love him and he comes back in that role cause phuck it he loves NYC, who knows). Point is its a short term commitment and helps our roster some (Rose has to wanna go, and I think he's enjoy playing w/ Lebron)
I wish Thibs would give a little more rope to Obi & McBride and heck Fournier - but his spots aren't changing and I now 100% agree with your idea of adding Westbrook or Grant or someone like that - a veteran that can defend and hold their own in the offense.
The question is does Thibs agree. He moves to his own beat. I thought I had him figured out as far as the type of players he like, but I was wrong. He clearly has another way to justify PT outside of what we see on TV. So that’s why it’s hard to guess which players thibs will play or not play. No clue.
That is why whatever the FO does, he needs to be 100% on board with said move, and if he gets a shiney new toy and decides he doesn't want it, then he has some splaining to do!
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Nalod wrote:In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?
Toppin for Duarte has been a commonly mentioned possibility, but we would be trading one rotation player for another which doesn’t solve the problem. An expanded idea would be Toppin and reddish for Duarte and Daniel Theis. Theis hasn’t played yet this year but is close. But he’s a guy who I can envision perfectly suited for a 12-14 mpg energy role behind Randle, plus being a defensive guy thibs can trust. And Duarte has been erratic this year but offers enough on both sides of the ball to play 20 mpg. IQ, Duarte, Theis (who can play both frontcourt positions defensively) and Hart, with Deuce as the 10th man for defensive purposes is a bench rotation I can buy. The question would be is if Indiana is willing to help us. They would have to drop out pretty well over the next couple weeks.
Daniel Theis hasn't played this season, out indefinitely with knee surgery. Also has 2 years beyond this one for contract.
That’s how desperate we are for playable players.
Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Nalod wrote:In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?
Toppin for Duarte has been a commonly mentioned possibility, but we would be trading one rotation player for another which doesn’t solve the problem. An expanded idea would be Toppin and reddish for Duarte and Daniel Theis. Theis hasn’t played yet this year but is close. But he’s a guy who I can envision perfectly suited for a 12-14 mpg energy role behind Randle, plus being a defensive guy thibs can trust. And Duarte has been erratic this year but offers enough on both sides of the ball to play 20 mpg. IQ, Duarte, Theis (who can play both frontcourt positions defensively) and Hart, with Deuce as the 10th man for defensive purposes is a bench rotation I can buy. The question would be is if Indiana is willing to help us. They would have to drop out pretty well over the next couple weeks.
Daniel Theis hasn't played this season, out indefinitely with knee surgery. Also has 2 years beyond this one for contract.
That’s how desperate we are for playable players.
No it's just a lack of a good idea and fit. Obi just gotta play better
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Nalod wrote:In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?
Toppin for Duarte has been a commonly mentioned possibility, but we would be trading one rotation player for another which doesn’t solve the problem. An expanded idea would be Toppin and reddish for Duarte and Daniel Theis. Theis hasn’t played yet this year but is close. But he’s a guy who I can envision perfectly suited for a 12-14 mpg energy role behind Randle, plus being a defensive guy thibs can trust. And Duarte has been erratic this year but offers enough on both sides of the ball to play 20 mpg. IQ, Duarte, Theis (who can play both frontcourt positions defensively) and Hart, with Deuce as the 10th man for defensive purposes is a bench rotation I can buy. The question would be is if Indiana is willing to help us. They would have to drop out pretty well over the next couple weeks.
Daniel Theis hasn't played this season, out indefinitely with knee surgery. Also has 2 years beyond this one for contract.
That’s how desperate we are for playable players.
No it's just a lack of a good idea and fit. Obi just gotta play better
I’m with you. I’m not saying I would do it 100%. I’m just talking about what I can see realistically happening and what I can buy. I want Toppin to play better and be a part of the future here. I just make a thread echoing that on he and IQ. But for the way they are using Obi and he is developing, theis is a better player for that role if you’re also adding a guy like Duarte and not giving up any picks. I personally don’t want to deal Toppin or Barrett for anything less than a star because I would be concerned about what they would turn into elsewhere to some degree.
Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Nalod wrote:In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?
Toppin for Duarte has been a commonly mentioned possibility, but we would be trading one rotation player for another which doesn’t solve the problem. An expanded idea would be Toppin and reddish for Duarte and Daniel Theis. Theis hasn’t played yet this year but is close. But he’s a guy who I can envision perfectly suited for a 12-14 mpg energy role behind Randle, plus being a defensive guy thibs can trust. And Duarte has been erratic this year but offers enough on both sides of the ball to play 20 mpg. IQ, Duarte, Theis (who can play both frontcourt positions defensively) and Hart, with Deuce as the 10th man for defensive purposes is a bench rotation I can buy. The question would be is if Indiana is willing to help us. They would have to drop out pretty well over the next couple weeks.
Daniel Theis hasn't played this season, out indefinitely with knee surgery. Also has 2 years beyond this one for contract.
That’s how desperate we are for playable players.
No it's just a lack of a good idea and fit. Obi just gotta play better
I’m with you. I’m not saying I would do it 100%. I’m just talking about what I can see realistically happening and what I can buy. I want Toppin to play better and be a part of the future here. I just make a thread echoing that on he and IQ. But for the way they are using Obi and he is developing, theis is a better player for that role if you’re also adding a guy like Duarte and not giving up any picks.
Obi is 24 with a birthday in March. He will be a 26 y.o rfa. He reportedly is always in the gym practicing so maybe this is all there is. If he doesn’t find that killer instinct soon he is going to be looking for a new job regardless of who his agents daddy is
If I’m the front office and we drafted Obi over an All NBA player we needed and was the biggest lay up in the draft, the last thing I’m doing is trading him to a team with that player who will elevate his game to another level.
Obi goes West otherwise it doesn’t make sense. Thibs has destroyed his value and confidence.
Still don’t know how we bungled free agency a year ago so badly. This shouldn’t be an issue finding a wing that can contribute.
Thibs might very well have a tight rotation in the playoffs. If thats his plan, it would help those players IMO if the rotation was expanded during the regular season to keep them from running out of gas by then.
Might even find a player who has elevated their game enough to be added to the rotation
MS wrote:If I’m the front office and we drafted Obi over an All NBA player we needed and was the biggest lay up in the draft, the last thing I’m doing is trading him to a team with that player who will elevate his game to another level. Obi goes West otherwise it doesn’t make sense. Thibs has destroyed his value and confidence.
Still don’t know how we bungled free agency a year ago so badly. This shouldn’t be an issue finding a wing that can contribute.
We signed Brunson. its OK.
Wing? RJ.
Cam was to fill in the gap and contribute. he isn't.
Who did we wiff on this past year that could play wing off the bench?
Who did we offer? who refused?
The ened to call teams and see if they would like to pick three of the following names:
Reddish, Hartenstein, Fournier, Toppin, McBride, Rose, Sims, Mykhailiuk, Arcidiacono, Keels
I would also say we need a legit rotational player, and would entertain taking back 'a bad deal'.
We need to add to legitimate rotation pieaces to truly compete in the playoffs. We're an injury away from being toast.
What's Toppin, Reddish, EF get us?
Nalod wrote:MS wrote:If I’m the front office and we drafted Obi over an All NBA player we needed and was the biggest lay up in the draft, the last thing I’m doing is trading him to a team with that player who will elevate his game to another level. Obi goes West otherwise it doesn’t make sense. Thibs has destroyed his value and confidence.
Still don’t know how we bungled free agency a year ago so badly. This shouldn’t be an issue finding a wing that can contribute.
We signed Brunson. its OK.
Wing? RJ.
Cam was to fill in the gap and contribute. he isn't.
Who did we wiff on this past year that could play wing off the bench?
Who did we offer? who refused?
There were several wings in the 2022 draft. We could have traded back instead of out of the draft. Instead we have a bunch of protected picks. Maybe they have value in a trade? I dunno. What would you give up for Rose, Redish, Fournier and protected picks……me, not much. Teams are going to want players we don’t want to trade like IQ and Grimes. We can kick the tires on trade rumors leading up to the trade deadline but you have to give to get. One sided message board trade ideas aren’t likely in the real world of the nba.
The talent was/is there. Obi probably wasnt the best pick for a Thibs coached team. Obi is "Showtime". His skillset.
I'm not looking forward to Obi being traded. But if his future in NY is being parked in the corner. Then for his sake and the Knicks, I hope we trade him for a player who is a better fit. Im sure fans would regret it. But it feels like he's only going to spin his wheels in NY. Not unless his role changes soon.
Rookie wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:The ened to call teams and see if they would like to pick three of the following names:
Reddish, Hartenstein, Fournier, Toppin, McBride, Rose, Sims, Mykhailiuk, Arcidiacono, KeelsI would also say we need a legit rotational player, and would entertain taking back 'a bad deal'.
We need to add to legitimate rotation pieaces to truly compete in the playoffs. We're an injury away from being toast.
What's Toppin, Reddish, EF get us?
Absolutely nothing
what if I include a 2nd rounder in 2037?
