Knicks · R.J. Barrett vs. Kobe Bryant (1st 4 Years of NBA Play). (page 5)
joec32033 wrote:you totally misstate and misrepresent my opinion and back it with words I didnt use. Sorry where did I say RJ sucks? I didnt. You did, which is kind of telling. Its like an insecurity, only RJ based.fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:the bold is just emotional stuff. The problem is RJ has been very much the same player in the league for 4 years now. Even the one year he shot the 3 very well he was overall well below league average in basic EFG%fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:why do you say his 3 point shooting is better? He was 40% his 2nd year. Its been 34% the following two years. That's not good or a good sign. His FG% is better at the rim. That's the only real plus I am seeing these days. His EFG% and TS% are just not very good. Looks like the hot stretch to finish his 2nd year was outlier because we havent seen that kind of shooting since.fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:fishmike wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:https://stathead.com/tiny/2lwzrits retarded.. and they are nothing alike. Kobe's ascension was stardom. RJ looks like a good NBA bucket better and rotation guy. LeVert is more realistic but hopefully as healthy version.If you take a closer look at advance stats and factor in that Kobe only played like 16 minutes a game his rookie season, then I'd say this a pipedream. While RJ has made incremental improvements over the course of his career, Kobe SKYROCKETED during his four year spurt. No need for straw man arguments. Why not make a more reasonable RJ comparison, like Caris LeVert? I'm rooting for RJ, but he projects a ceiling of being a solid wing if you look at it objectively. Nothing wrong with that, but definitely not an untouchable.
Caris LeVert comparison: https://stathead.com/tiny/flXGuRJ is 23 soon... the hope is just he can be better BB player. Smarter plays, less TOs and better shots. Basically just be a better player
Phucking Kobe.. this is him reading this post
https://imgur.com/a/gD1VYmcSo a far comparison is a 19-22 year old RJ to a 22-25 year old Lavert?
they are similar players in terms of stats and impact... more impact. Comparing RJ/Kobe is.... well it's Friday so I'll be nice.RJ has been the same player for the last 3 years. Literally what's he better at since his sophomore/rookie season? (and I like him)
First off I agree he is nothing like Kobe.
Second question...his 3 point shooting is better. Defense is worse. I think he is more comfortable in the clutch and isn't a horrible passer. This season alone within the past month or so he has been dunking to finish, but his finishing around the basket needs major work.
Wiggins is 100% the guy if you wan to compare. Seemingly good stats, but isnt much of an impact player. God I hope I am wrong with RJ. He's young and works hard and plays hard. He's a good guy but I'm just calling it like I see it which is he's not showing the growth that says he's taking it to the next level. I mean Randle/Brunson have shown more improvements in their games this year than RJ has.
Remember when he came into the league and the big question was can he shoot the 3?
He has become semi dependable as a spot up 3 pt shooter. He makes 3's in the clutch also. I am aware he is an inefficient scorer but I think that goes away if he finishes better. The guys has show the ability to put up 25 5 and 5 a night for extended periods of time. I am not saying he's Kobe but minimizing his potential and his accomplishments thus far is not looking at facts.
He gets minutes and treatment because of his draft status and potential but that is going to be tested very soon.
The bottom line is how long do you stick with a player who's below league averages in all EFG% numbers and is not a plus defender? 23? 25?
Next RJ's 23, 24, 25, 26 years old and he's making 23/25/27/29mm in those next 4 years.
I dont want to lose my fan card... when is it OK to start saying this guy might not be very good?
I can literally say the same about your opinion being emotional. The kid is averaging 20 5 and 3 on 43% shooting 109th in the league (Quickly is literally 108th by .2 percentage points-but all I hear about IQ is how great he is)
His efg% is within .005% of Scottie Barnes. .006% of LaMelo. Better than Fred Van Vleet. Better than Trae Young. He is ranked a 116 efg% put of 450 total players in the NBA. Basketball reference is only listing the top 132 when sorting efg%.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...Yes he isn't a great shooter. But in some cases, alot of the Barrett conversation is about the grass always being greener. That's not emotional. It is what it is. If RJ was on any other team he would be compared to guys like Jordan Clarkson or Kyle Kuzma currently. But he is on the Knicks, so he sucks
what am I being emotional about? Trae and FVV... you picked two guys having career lows in that stat. So you are backing up my point. Are FVV and Trae guys you want to build around? They are having their worst seasons and now RJ is on a par with them. On a side note FVV is a plus defender, and Trae gets you 10 dimes a game. What does RJ do to balance his poor shooting numbers?I said it was a matter of time before he got benched and he sat last night.
Its not emotion, its basketball. RJ has not been very good. That is clearly really upsetting for people.
Let me rephrase... I am SOOOO (honestly) sorry RJ kinda sucks. I wish we picked 2nd in that draft but we are always one pick behind. The question is do we do something about it or just hang and hope? I am honestly curious. How long are you comfortable watching him play like this? Its a fair question man... 1 more year? 3 more?
We can just agree to disagree then.
You tell me that I compare RJ to two guys that are having shitty years then proceed to tell me how good these guys are and what else they give you. FVV is an average defender. Trae gives 10 dimes but more turnovers than Julius and the worst defense in the league. Every player has short comings. We will do this all day picking apart each others comparisons because we are both dug into our opinions.
I have said from the beginning that at 22 RJ is not a perfect player but for 22 he is damn good considering how he started his career. I think other than on court, I think (thought) his temperament for NY was perfect and I have said before his ceiling reminds me of Paul Pierce. And I will stick to that.
He is at least an average player. If Booker was in NY he would be a 1 dimensional shooter. If Towns was in NY he'd be a soft big man. Shit in half a season Brunson went from the best PG this team has had in decades to a a shoot first PG who doesnt involve his teammates. We've both seen it a thousand times. This city demands perfection from their players and only really appreciates them when they are gone. I said before if RJ was on any other team he would be looked at as a Clarkson or Kuzma level talent. But he isn't so he sucks.
You say he sucks, fine. More power to you. To me the kid at 22 is averaging 20 5 and 3 while a 3rd option, riding some percentages that are current career highs (including your efg%).
No hard feelings.
Maybe go back and read what I wrote? The question is how long do hang with this level of play before seeking an upgrade? How long to we remain patient? Or is he just "your guy" and that's how it is. Some are like that.
"We can just agree to disagree then" what do you think we we are disagreeing on? RJ isnt as good as Trae. He's prolly about the same as FVV. What's that got to do with anything? Also both those guys may be the trade block so there's that...
13 seconds on shot clock, RJ aimlessly wandering on the perimeter with the ball.
Picks up dribble around the 7 second mark. Can pass to either Sims on the 3 point line (guarded by AD) or Randle on the other side of him (Rui guarding). Makes decision to pass to the only guy on the floor who literally can't do anything with the ball in that particular spot.
He could have also taken the ball directly back from Sims but runs away from him to set a screen for Randle's guy?
Randle not left with much to do really.
... Like WTF? He is not a rookie just off the boat who needs to be told what to do here.
For me, this is a decision making processing thing and holy cow. It's a one-off my bad type play but really, it isn't for RJ. You can almost see the brain lock up or not be able to adjust or process the situation. Same when he pre-locks into a decision on a drive even if that option is no longer there. He has brain farts all over the place and it's super hard to correct this type of thing no less get to the speed of how IQ processes opposing offenses.
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fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:you totally misstate and misrepresent my opinion and back it with words I didnt use. Sorry where did I say RJ sucks? I didnt. You did, which is kind of telling. Its like an insecurity, only RJ based.fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:the bold is just emotional stuff. The problem is RJ has been very much the same player in the league for 4 years now. Even the one year he shot the 3 very well he was overall well below league average in basic EFG%fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:why do you say his 3 point shooting is better? He was 40% his 2nd year. Its been 34% the following two years. That's not good or a good sign. His FG% is better at the rim. That's the only real plus I am seeing these days. His EFG% and TS% are just not very good. Looks like the hot stretch to finish his 2nd year was outlier because we havent seen that kind of shooting since.fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:fishmike wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:https://stathead.com/tiny/2lwzrits retarded.. and they are nothing alike. Kobe's ascension was stardom. RJ looks like a good NBA bucket better and rotation guy. LeVert is more realistic but hopefully as healthy version.If you take a closer look at advance stats and factor in that Kobe only played like 16 minutes a game his rookie season, then I'd say this a pipedream. While RJ has made incremental improvements over the course of his career, Kobe SKYROCKETED during his four year spurt. No need for straw man arguments. Why not make a more reasonable RJ comparison, like Caris LeVert? I'm rooting for RJ, but he projects a ceiling of being a solid wing if you look at it objectively. Nothing wrong with that, but definitely not an untouchable.
Caris LeVert comparison: https://stathead.com/tiny/flXGuRJ is 23 soon... the hope is just he can be better BB player. Smarter plays, less TOs and better shots. Basically just be a better player
Phucking Kobe.. this is him reading this post
https://imgur.com/a/gD1VYmcSo a far comparison is a 19-22 year old RJ to a 22-25 year old Lavert?
they are similar players in terms of stats and impact... more impact. Comparing RJ/Kobe is.... well it's Friday so I'll be nice.RJ has been the same player for the last 3 years. Literally what's he better at since his sophomore/rookie season? (and I like him)
First off I agree he is nothing like Kobe.
Second question...his 3 point shooting is better. Defense is worse. I think he is more comfortable in the clutch and isn't a horrible passer. This season alone within the past month or so he has been dunking to finish, but his finishing around the basket needs major work.
Wiggins is 100% the guy if you wan to compare. Seemingly good stats, but isnt much of an impact player. God I hope I am wrong with RJ. He's young and works hard and plays hard. He's a good guy but I'm just calling it like I see it which is he's not showing the growth that says he's taking it to the next level. I mean Randle/Brunson have shown more improvements in their games this year than RJ has.
Remember when he came into the league and the big question was can he shoot the 3?
He has become semi dependable as a spot up 3 pt shooter. He makes 3's in the clutch also. I am aware he is an inefficient scorer but I think that goes away if he finishes better. The guys has show the ability to put up 25 5 and 5 a night for extended periods of time. I am not saying he's Kobe but minimizing his potential and his accomplishments thus far is not looking at facts.
He gets minutes and treatment because of his draft status and potential but that is going to be tested very soon.
The bottom line is how long do you stick with a player who's below league averages in all EFG% numbers and is not a plus defender? 23? 25?
Next RJ's 23, 24, 25, 26 years old and he's making 23/25/27/29mm in those next 4 years.
I dont want to lose my fan card... when is it OK to start saying this guy might not be very good?
I can literally say the same about your opinion being emotional. The kid is averaging 20 5 and 3 on 43% shooting 109th in the league (Quickly is literally 108th by .2 percentage points-but all I hear about IQ is how great he is)
His efg% is within .005% of Scottie Barnes. .006% of LaMelo. Better than Fred Van Vleet. Better than Trae Young. He is ranked a 116 efg% put of 450 total players in the NBA. Basketball reference is only listing the top 132 when sorting efg%.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...Yes he isn't a great shooter. But in some cases, alot of the Barrett conversation is about the grass always being greener. That's not emotional. It is what it is. If RJ was on any other team he would be compared to guys like Jordan Clarkson or Kyle Kuzma currently. But he is on the Knicks, so he sucks
what am I being emotional about? Trae and FVV... you picked two guys having career lows in that stat. So you are backing up my point. Are FVV and Trae guys you want to build around? They are having their worst seasons and now RJ is on a par with them. On a side note FVV is a plus defender, and Trae gets you 10 dimes a game. What does RJ do to balance his poor shooting numbers?I said it was a matter of time before he got benched and he sat last night.
Its not emotion, its basketball. RJ has not been very good. That is clearly really upsetting for people.
Let me rephrase... I am SOOOO (honestly) sorry RJ kinda sucks. I wish we picked 2nd in that draft but we are always one pick behind. The question is do we do something about it or just hang and hope? I am honestly curious. How long are you comfortable watching him play like this? Its a fair question man... 1 more year? 3 more?
We can just agree to disagree then.
You tell me that I compare RJ to two guys that are having shitty years then proceed to tell me how good these guys are and what else they give you. FVV is an average defender. Trae gives 10 dimes but more turnovers than Julius and the worst defense in the league. Every player has short comings. We will do this all day picking apart each others comparisons because we are both dug into our opinions.
I have said from the beginning that at 22 RJ is not a perfect player but for 22 he is damn good considering how he started his career. I think other than on court, I think (thought) his temperament for NY was perfect and I have said before his ceiling reminds me of Paul Pierce. And I will stick to that.
He is at least an average player. If Booker was in NY he would be a 1 dimensional shooter. If Towns was in NY he'd be a soft big man. Shit in half a season Brunson went from the best PG this team has had in decades to a a shoot first PG who doesnt involve his teammates. We've both seen it a thousand times. This city demands perfection from their players and only really appreciates them when they are gone. I said before if RJ was on any other team he would be looked at as a Clarkson or Kuzma level talent. But he isn't so he sucks.
You say he sucks, fine. More power to you. To me the kid at 22 is averaging 20 5 and 3 while a 3rd option, riding some percentages that are current career highs (including your efg%).
No hard feelings.
Maybe go back and read what I wrote? The question is how long do hang with this level of play before seeking an upgrade? How long to we remain patient? Or is he just "your guy" and that's how it is. Some are like that.
"We can just agree to disagree then" what do you think we we are disagreeing on? RJ isnt as good as Trae. He's prolly about the same as FVV. What's that got to do with anything? Also both those guys may be the trade block so there's that...
No insecurity. Within the first few responses of our back and forth, you called him an "bucket getter, but not much of an impact player". You are equating him to Lee Nailon. That's fine, that's how you see him. I feel he has much more potential than that.
You pointed out certain percentages of numbers that he was deficient in and I pointed out there are players who are considered really good peppered around the same efficiencies. You then turned and said that the two guys I picked are just not doing well this season and FVV is a plus defender (His DRating according to stathead is 115. RJ is 117). You said Young will get you 10 assists (He's a PG with an ultra high usage rate, he should, btw, his defensive rating is 119).
I don't like Young (what makes Young better? He is a PG with an ultra high usage and the 1a option on his team he better put up stats. Is it becauses he can hit a three from half court or nutmeg his opponents?) and I barely like Van Vleet (at least he is a solid steady contributer, an above average PG at best). But I know they are regarded players. I picked them as a comparison in the one stat you keep throwing out there, and then we move the goal posts.
We agree to disagree on the fact that RJ isn't going to develop. You said before you hope your wrong, but you are talking like it's fact he topped out and you feel strongly about that. I feel there are different types of development and he has more (alot more) room to grow.
It is what it is. I'm really just tired of arguing about this particular subject. People who don't like him aren't going to be convinced otherwise, as are people who do like him aren't going to be swayed either. For me the double standard of players on this team vs players on other teams is ridiculous.
joec32033 wrote:you go off on tangents and totally ignore the question. Can you not answer it? How long are you waiting for this growth you are hopeful for but we have yet to see?fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:you totally misstate and misrepresent my opinion and back it with words I didnt use. Sorry where did I say RJ sucks? I didnt. You did, which is kind of telling. Its like an insecurity, only RJ based.fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:the bold is just emotional stuff. The problem is RJ has been very much the same player in the league for 4 years now. Even the one year he shot the 3 very well he was overall well below league average in basic EFG%fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:why do you say his 3 point shooting is better? He was 40% his 2nd year. Its been 34% the following two years. That's not good or a good sign. His FG% is better at the rim. That's the only real plus I am seeing these days. His EFG% and TS% are just not very good. Looks like the hot stretch to finish his 2nd year was outlier because we havent seen that kind of shooting since.fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:fishmike wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:https://stathead.com/tiny/2lwzrits retarded.. and they are nothing alike. Kobe's ascension was stardom. RJ looks like a good NBA bucket better and rotation guy. LeVert is more realistic but hopefully as healthy version.If you take a closer look at advance stats and factor in that Kobe only played like 16 minutes a game his rookie season, then I'd say this a pipedream. While RJ has made incremental improvements over the course of his career, Kobe SKYROCKETED during his four year spurt. No need for straw man arguments. Why not make a more reasonable RJ comparison, like Caris LeVert? I'm rooting for RJ, but he projects a ceiling of being a solid wing if you look at it objectively. Nothing wrong with that, but definitely not an untouchable.
Caris LeVert comparison: https://stathead.com/tiny/flXGuRJ is 23 soon... the hope is just he can be better BB player. Smarter plays, less TOs and better shots. Basically just be a better player
Phucking Kobe.. this is him reading this post
https://imgur.com/a/gD1VYmcSo a far comparison is a 19-22 year old RJ to a 22-25 year old Lavert?
they are similar players in terms of stats and impact... more impact. Comparing RJ/Kobe is.... well it's Friday so I'll be nice.RJ has been the same player for the last 3 years. Literally what's he better at since his sophomore/rookie season? (and I like him)
First off I agree he is nothing like Kobe.
Second question...his 3 point shooting is better. Defense is worse. I think he is more comfortable in the clutch and isn't a horrible passer. This season alone within the past month or so he has been dunking to finish, but his finishing around the basket needs major work.
Wiggins is 100% the guy if you wan to compare. Seemingly good stats, but isnt much of an impact player. God I hope I am wrong with RJ. He's young and works hard and plays hard. He's a good guy but I'm just calling it like I see it which is he's not showing the growth that says he's taking it to the next level. I mean Randle/Brunson have shown more improvements in their games this year than RJ has.
Remember when he came into the league and the big question was can he shoot the 3?
He has become semi dependable as a spot up 3 pt shooter. He makes 3's in the clutch also. I am aware he is an inefficient scorer but I think that goes away if he finishes better. The guys has show the ability to put up 25 5 and 5 a night for extended periods of time. I am not saying he's Kobe but minimizing his potential and his accomplishments thus far is not looking at facts.
He gets minutes and treatment because of his draft status and potential but that is going to be tested very soon.
The bottom line is how long do you stick with a player who's below league averages in all EFG% numbers and is not a plus defender? 23? 25?
Next RJ's 23, 24, 25, 26 years old and he's making 23/25/27/29mm in those next 4 years.
I dont want to lose my fan card... when is it OK to start saying this guy might not be very good?
I can literally say the same about your opinion being emotional. The kid is averaging 20 5 and 3 on 43% shooting 109th in the league (Quickly is literally 108th by .2 percentage points-but all I hear about IQ is how great he is)
His efg% is within .005% of Scottie Barnes. .006% of LaMelo. Better than Fred Van Vleet. Better than Trae Young. He is ranked a 116 efg% put of 450 total players in the NBA. Basketball reference is only listing the top 132 when sorting efg%.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...Yes he isn't a great shooter. But in some cases, alot of the Barrett conversation is about the grass always being greener. That's not emotional. It is what it is. If RJ was on any other team he would be compared to guys like Jordan Clarkson or Kyle Kuzma currently. But he is on the Knicks, so he sucks
what am I being emotional about? Trae and FVV... you picked two guys having career lows in that stat. So you are backing up my point. Are FVV and Trae guys you want to build around? They are having their worst seasons and now RJ is on a par with them. On a side note FVV is a plus defender, and Trae gets you 10 dimes a game. What does RJ do to balance his poor shooting numbers?I said it was a matter of time before he got benched and he sat last night.
Its not emotion, its basketball. RJ has not been very good. That is clearly really upsetting for people.
Let me rephrase... I am SOOOO (honestly) sorry RJ kinda sucks. I wish we picked 2nd in that draft but we are always one pick behind. The question is do we do something about it or just hang and hope? I am honestly curious. How long are you comfortable watching him play like this? Its a fair question man... 1 more year? 3 more?
We can just agree to disagree then.
You tell me that I compare RJ to two guys that are having shitty years then proceed to tell me how good these guys are and what else they give you. FVV is an average defender. Trae gives 10 dimes but more turnovers than Julius and the worst defense in the league. Every player has short comings. We will do this all day picking apart each others comparisons because we are both dug into our opinions.
I have said from the beginning that at 22 RJ is not a perfect player but for 22 he is damn good considering how he started his career. I think other than on court, I think (thought) his temperament for NY was perfect and I have said before his ceiling reminds me of Paul Pierce. And I will stick to that.
He is at least an average player. If Booker was in NY he would be a 1 dimensional shooter. If Towns was in NY he'd be a soft big man. Shit in half a season Brunson went from the best PG this team has had in decades to a a shoot first PG who doesnt involve his teammates. We've both seen it a thousand times. This city demands perfection from their players and only really appreciates them when they are gone. I said before if RJ was on any other team he would be looked at as a Clarkson or Kuzma level talent. But he isn't so he sucks.
You say he sucks, fine. More power to you. To me the kid at 22 is averaging 20 5 and 3 while a 3rd option, riding some percentages that are current career highs (including your efg%).
No hard feelings.
Maybe go back and read what I wrote? The question is how long do hang with this level of play before seeking an upgrade? How long to we remain patient? Or is he just "your guy" and that's how it is. Some are like that.
"We can just agree to disagree then" what do you think we we are disagreeing on? RJ isnt as good as Trae. He's prolly about the same as FVV. What's that got to do with anything? Also both those guys may be the trade block so there's that...
No insecurity. Within the first few responses of our back and forth, you called him an "bucket getter, but not much of an impact player". You are equating him to Lee Nailon. That's fine, that's how you see him. I feel he has much more potential than that.
You pointed out certain percentages of numbers that he was deficient in and I pointed out there are players who are considered really good peppered around the same efficiencies. You then turned and said that the two guys I picked are just not doing well this season and FVV is a plus defender (His DRating according to stathead is 115. RJ is 117). You said Young will get you 10 assists (He's a PG with an ultra high usage rate, he should, btw, his defensive rating is 119).
I don't like Young (what makes Young better? He is a PG with an ultra high usage and the 1a option on his team he better put up stats. Is it becauses he can hit a three from half court or nutmeg his opponents?) and I barely like Van Vleet (at least he is a solid steady contributer, an above average PG at best). But I know they are regarded players. I picked them as a comparison in the one stat you keep throwing out there, and then we move the goal posts.
We agree to disagree on the fact that RJ isn't going to develop. You said before you hope your wrong, but you are talking like it's fact he topped out and you feel strongly about that. I feel there are different types of development and he has more (alot more) room to grow.
It is what it is. I'm really just tired of arguing about this particular subject. People who don't like him aren't going to be convinced otherwise, as are people who do like him aren't going to be swayed either. For me the double standard of players on this team vs players on other teams is ridiculous.
Lee Nailon? Cmon dude. I said Corey Maggette.
You want another one for impact? Forget age and experience. Who's a better NBA player? RJ or Terry Rozier? RJ or Norm Powell?
You got a cute attachment to RJ. That's fine. We all do that, its fun. Knicks need to improve. His play is part of the problem. Its that simple man. You wanna wait? Sure. How long? Last year when people said dump Randle I said be patient and wait a year. Im not right often but I was that time.
fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:you go off on tangents and totally ignore the question. Can you not answer it? How long are you waiting for this growth you are hopeful for but we have yet to see?fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:you totally misstate and misrepresent my opinion and back it with words I didnt use. Sorry where did I say RJ sucks? I didnt. You did, which is kind of telling. Its like an insecurity, only RJ based.fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:the bold is just emotional stuff. The problem is RJ has been very much the same player in the league for 4 years now. Even the one year he shot the 3 very well he was overall well below league average in basic EFG%fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:why do you say his 3 point shooting is better? He was 40% his 2nd year. Its been 34% the following two years. That's not good or a good sign. His FG% is better at the rim. That's the only real plus I am seeing these days. His EFG% and TS% are just not very good. Looks like the hot stretch to finish his 2nd year was outlier because we havent seen that kind of shooting since.fishmike wrote:joec32033 wrote:fishmike wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:https://stathead.com/tiny/2lwzrits retarded.. and they are nothing alike. Kobe's ascension was stardom. RJ looks like a good NBA bucket better and rotation guy. LeVert is more realistic but hopefully as healthy version.If you take a closer look at advance stats and factor in that Kobe only played like 16 minutes a game his rookie season, then I'd say this a pipedream. While RJ has made incremental improvements over the course of his career, Kobe SKYROCKETED during his four year spurt. No need for straw man arguments. Why not make a more reasonable RJ comparison, like Caris LeVert? I'm rooting for RJ, but he projects a ceiling of being a solid wing if you look at it objectively. Nothing wrong with that, but definitely not an untouchable.
Caris LeVert comparison: https://stathead.com/tiny/flXGuRJ is 23 soon... the hope is just he can be better BB player. Smarter plays, less TOs and better shots. Basically just be a better player
Phucking Kobe.. this is him reading this post
https://imgur.com/a/gD1VYmcSo a far comparison is a 19-22 year old RJ to a 22-25 year old Lavert?
they are similar players in terms of stats and impact... more impact. Comparing RJ/Kobe is.... well it's Friday so I'll be nice.RJ has been the same player for the last 3 years. Literally what's he better at since his sophomore/rookie season? (and I like him)
First off I agree he is nothing like Kobe.
Second question...his 3 point shooting is better. Defense is worse. I think he is more comfortable in the clutch and isn't a horrible passer. This season alone within the past month or so he has been dunking to finish, but his finishing around the basket needs major work.
Wiggins is 100% the guy if you wan to compare. Seemingly good stats, but isnt much of an impact player. God I hope I am wrong with RJ. He's young and works hard and plays hard. He's a good guy but I'm just calling it like I see it which is he's not showing the growth that says he's taking it to the next level. I mean Randle/Brunson have shown more improvements in their games this year than RJ has.
Remember when he came into the league and the big question was can he shoot the 3?
He has become semi dependable as a spot up 3 pt shooter. He makes 3's in the clutch also. I am aware he is an inefficient scorer but I think that goes away if he finishes better. The guys has show the ability to put up 25 5 and 5 a night for extended periods of time. I am not saying he's Kobe but minimizing his potential and his accomplishments thus far is not looking at facts.
He gets minutes and treatment because of his draft status and potential but that is going to be tested very soon.
The bottom line is how long do you stick with a player who's below league averages in all EFG% numbers and is not a plus defender? 23? 25?
Next RJ's 23, 24, 25, 26 years old and he's making 23/25/27/29mm in those next 4 years.
I dont want to lose my fan card... when is it OK to start saying this guy might not be very good?
I can literally say the same about your opinion being emotional. The kid is averaging 20 5 and 3 on 43% shooting 109th in the league (Quickly is literally 108th by .2 percentage points-but all I hear about IQ is how great he is)
His efg% is within .005% of Scottie Barnes. .006% of LaMelo. Better than Fred Van Vleet. Better than Trae Young. He is ranked a 116 efg% put of 450 total players in the NBA. Basketball reference is only listing the top 132 when sorting efg%.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...Yes he isn't a great shooter. But in some cases, alot of the Barrett conversation is about the grass always being greener. That's not emotional. It is what it is. If RJ was on any other team he would be compared to guys like Jordan Clarkson or Kyle Kuzma currently. But he is on the Knicks, so he sucks
what am I being emotional about? Trae and FVV... you picked two guys having career lows in that stat. So you are backing up my point. Are FVV and Trae guys you want to build around? They are having their worst seasons and now RJ is on a par with them. On a side note FVV is a plus defender, and Trae gets you 10 dimes a game. What does RJ do to balance his poor shooting numbers?I said it was a matter of time before he got benched and he sat last night.
Its not emotion, its basketball. RJ has not been very good. That is clearly really upsetting for people.
Let me rephrase... I am SOOOO (honestly) sorry RJ kinda sucks. I wish we picked 2nd in that draft but we are always one pick behind. The question is do we do something about it or just hang and hope? I am honestly curious. How long are you comfortable watching him play like this? Its a fair question man... 1 more year? 3 more?
We can just agree to disagree then.
You tell me that I compare RJ to two guys that are having shitty years then proceed to tell me how good these guys are and what else they give you. FVV is an average defender. Trae gives 10 dimes but more turnovers than Julius and the worst defense in the league. Every player has short comings. We will do this all day picking apart each others comparisons because we are both dug into our opinions.
I have said from the beginning that at 22 RJ is not a perfect player but for 22 he is damn good considering how he started his career. I think other than on court, I think (thought) his temperament for NY was perfect and I have said before his ceiling reminds me of Paul Pierce. And I will stick to that.
He is at least an average player. If Booker was in NY he would be a 1 dimensional shooter. If Towns was in NY he'd be a soft big man. Shit in half a season Brunson went from the best PG this team has had in decades to a a shoot first PG who doesnt involve his teammates. We've both seen it a thousand times. This city demands perfection from their players and only really appreciates them when they are gone. I said before if RJ was on any other team he would be looked at as a Clarkson or Kuzma level talent. But he isn't so he sucks.
You say he sucks, fine. More power to you. To me the kid at 22 is averaging 20 5 and 3 while a 3rd option, riding some percentages that are current career highs (including your efg%).
No hard feelings.
Maybe go back and read what I wrote? The question is how long do hang with this level of play before seeking an upgrade? How long to we remain patient? Or is he just "your guy" and that's how it is. Some are like that.
"We can just agree to disagree then" what do you think we we are disagreeing on? RJ isnt as good as Trae. He's prolly about the same as FVV. What's that got to do with anything? Also both those guys may be the trade block so there's that...
No insecurity. Within the first few responses of our back and forth, you called him an "bucket getter, but not much of an impact player". You are equating him to Lee Nailon. That's fine, that's how you see him. I feel he has much more potential than that.
You pointed out certain percentages of numbers that he was deficient in and I pointed out there are players who are considered really good peppered around the same efficiencies. You then turned and said that the two guys I picked are just not doing well this season and FVV is a plus defender (His DRating according to stathead is 115. RJ is 117). You said Young will get you 10 assists (He's a PG with an ultra high usage rate, he should, btw, his defensive rating is 119).
I don't like Young (what makes Young better? He is a PG with an ultra high usage and the 1a option on his team he better put up stats. Is it becauses he can hit a three from half court or nutmeg his opponents?) and I barely like Van Vleet (at least he is a solid steady contributer, an above average PG at best). But I know they are regarded players. I picked them as a comparison in the one stat you keep throwing out there, and then we move the goal posts.
We agree to disagree on the fact that RJ isn't going to develop. You said before you hope your wrong, but you are talking like it's fact he topped out and you feel strongly about that. I feel there are different types of development and he has more (alot more) room to grow.
It is what it is. I'm really just tired of arguing about this particular subject. People who don't like him aren't going to be convinced otherwise, as are people who do like him aren't going to be swayed either. For me the double standard of players on this team vs players on other teams is ridiculous.
Lee Nailon? Cmon dude. I said Corey Maggette.
You want another one for impact? Forget age and experience. Who's a better NBA player? RJ or Terry Rozier? RJ or Norm Powell?
You got a cute attachment to RJ. That's fine. We all do that, its fun. Knicks need to improve. His play is part of the problem. Its that simple man. You wanna wait? Sure. How long? Last year when people said dump Randle I said be patient and wait a year. Im not right often but I was that time.
I'm willing to wait until he's older than 22. You can dismiss my "tangents" as much as you want. It's still how this played out. As much as you say I have a "cute attachment" to RJ, you are willing to move onto the next big thing. You want to fall in love with Grimes' 10 pts 3 rebs a game fine. Or Quick, whoever. Thats your thing. But to say it's this big personal thing for me and it isnt for you is shit. It obviously goes pretty deep for you and that's fine.
Remember I was willing to walk from this conversation a few days ago because I knew I wasn't swaying you and you weren't swaying me. You want to keep this going.
Exactly.
There's no way I'm going to trade away our most promising and youngest player on our entire team in R.J. Barrett @ the age of only 22 years old; because I personally believe by the time he's 26 years of age he'll already have developed into a Perennial All-Star.
He's in his 4th NBA year but yet still younger than several incoming Rookies; his talents + potential are both through the roof.
NYKMentality wrote:JoeC.Exactly.
There's no way I'm going to trade away our most promising and youngest player on our entire team in R.J. Barrett @ the age of only 22 years old; because I personally believe by the time he's 26 years of age he'll already have developed into a Perennial All-Star.
He's in his 4th NBA year but yet still younger than several incoming Rookies; his talents + potential are both through the roof.
Agree with this.
However, need to see consistent improvement for this to take place.
Or else he will be one of the many NBA players with tremendous potential yet underachieved.
Biggest thing for me is working on his passing and all around bball IQ.
Kid so far is just a scorer. Which get him to sixth man status.
HofstraBBall wrote:NYKMentality wrote:JoeC.Agree with this.Exactly.
There's no way I'm going to trade away our most promising and youngest player on our entire team in R.J. Barrett @ the age of only 22 years old; because I personally believe by the time he's 26 years of age he'll already have developed into a Perennial All-Star.
He's in his 4th NBA year but yet still younger than several incoming Rookies; his talents + potential are both through the roof.
However, need to see consistent improvement for this to take place.
Or else he will be one of the many NBA players with tremendous potential yet underachieved.
Biggest thing for me is working on his passing and all around bball IQ.
Kid so far is just a scorer. Which get him to sixth man status.
I agree with what you're saying but he's also an awesome rebounder for a SG and also tremendous on ball Defense too.
30 Points.
8 Rebounds.
4 Assists.
And 13/18 from inside of 3 (.722%).
Not bad for the youngest player on our Knicks @ only 22 years of age, no?
If R.J. Barrett focuses less on 3's and more on driving into the paint before attacking the rim; he's an NBA Perennial All-Star (that's how talented this kid, truly is).
Tonight was R.J. Barrett's 47th game of his 4th season.
What did Kobe Bryant do during Kobe's 47th game of his 4th year? 30 Points off 9/19 (.474%), 4 Rebounds and 4 Assists
What did Kobe Bryant average during his 4th NBA season while being blessed alongside of Shaq O'Neal?
22.5 Points per game off .468% from the field + 6.3 Rebounds Per game.
R.J. as a 4th year player is already @ 20.3 Points per game and 5.5 rebounds per game.
Yes.
Kobe was more efficient etc but what R.J. Barrett is doing as a scorer is simply to be proud of because he's only going to continue to get stronger and more dominant moving forward.
Am I saying R.J. Barrett is the next Kobe Bryant?
Nope.
But what I am saying is this...
R.J. Barrett is on his way to developing before becoming the greatest overall SG (that I've ever witnessed) as an NYK fan (within Franchise History); sorry John Starks and H2O.
Because neither one of John Starks nor Allan Houston could hold R.J. Barrett's jockstrap during their 4th NBA seasons.
And you know what's, nuts?
Allan Houston = 25 years old (during his 4th year).
John Starks = 27 years old (during his 4th year).
Wake up people;
R.J. Barrett is only 22 freaking years old right now!
NYKMentality wrote:One more thing.What did Kobe Bryant average during his 4th NBA season while being blessed alongside of Shaq O'Neal?
22.5 Points per game off .468% from the field + 6.3 Rebounds Per game.
R.J. as a 4th year player is already @ 20.3 Points per game and 5.5 rebounds per game.
Yes.
Kobe was more efficient etc but what R.J. Barrett is doing as a scorer is simply to be proud of because he's only going to continue to get stronger and more dominant moving forward.
Am I saying R.J. Barrett is the next Kobe Bryant?
Nope.
But what I am saying is this...
R.J. Barrett is on his way to developing before becoming the greatest overall SG (that I've ever witnessed) as an NYK fan (within Franchise History); sorry John Starks and H2O.
Because neither one of John Starks nor Allan Houston could hold R.J. Barrett's jockstrap during their 4th NBA seasons.
And you know what's, nuts?
Allan Houston = 25 years old (during his 4th year).
John Starks = 27 years old (during his 4th year).
Wake up people;
R.J. Barrett is only 22 freaking years old right now!
I could've sworn RJ played small forward 🤔 You keep saying RJ is not the next Kobe Bryant only to keep comparing him to Kobe Bryant. I get it, fan is short for fanatic. But this Kobe Bryant is ridiculous.
BigDaddyG wrote:NYKMentality wrote:One more thing.I could've sworn RJ played small forward; You keep saying RJ is not the next Kobe Bryant only to keep comparing him to Kobe Bryant. I get it, fan is short for fanatic. But this Kobe Bryant is ridiculous.What did Kobe Bryant average during his 4th NBA season while being blessed alongside of Shaq O'Neal?
22.5 Points per game off .468% from the field + 6.3 Rebounds Per game.
R.J. as a 4th year player is already @ 20.3 Points per game and 5.5 rebounds per game.
Yes.
Kobe was more efficient etc but what R.J. Barrett is doing as a scorer is simply to be proud of because he's only going to continue to get stronger and more dominant moving forward.
Am I saying R.J. Barrett is the next Kobe Bryant?
Nope.
But what I am saying is this...
R.J. Barrett is on his way to developing before becoming the greatest overall SG (that I've ever witnessed) as an NYK fan (within Franchise History); sorry John Starks and H2O.
Because neither one of John Starks nor Allan Houston could hold R.J. Barrett's jockstrap during their 4th NBA seasons.
And you know what's, nuts?
Allan Houston = 25 years old (during his 4th year).
John Starks = 27 years old (during his 4th year).
Wake up people;
R.J. Barrett is only 22 freaking years old right now!
He's played a lot more SG throughout his career in comparison to SF and @ 6'6 he's imo a more natural fit @ SG than SF etc.
But nonetheless you might think it's ridiculous but before R.J. Barrett's even completed his 4th NBA season he's already got more Points Scored and more Rebounds Boarded than even Kobe Bryant had after Kobe's 1st 4 (full) seasons; now that's what I consider... Ridiculous.
R.J. Barrett is a phenom NBA prospect and some NY fans aren't even realizing it yet (but I am).
NYKMentality wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:NYKMentality wrote:One more thing.I could've sworn RJ played small forward; You keep saying RJ is not the next Kobe Bryant only to keep comparing him to Kobe Bryant. I get it, fan is short for fanatic. But this Kobe Bryant is ridiculous.What did Kobe Bryant average during his 4th NBA season while being blessed alongside of Shaq O'Neal?
22.5 Points per game off .468% from the field + 6.3 Rebounds Per game.
R.J. as a 4th year player is already @ 20.3 Points per game and 5.5 rebounds per game.
Yes.
Kobe was more efficient etc but what R.J. Barrett is doing as a scorer is simply to be proud of because he's only going to continue to get stronger and more dominant moving forward.
Am I saying R.J. Barrett is the next Kobe Bryant?
Nope.
But what I am saying is this...
R.J. Barrett is on his way to developing before becoming the greatest overall SG (that I've ever witnessed) as an NYK fan (within Franchise History); sorry John Starks and H2O.
Because neither one of John Starks nor Allan Houston could hold R.J. Barrett's jockstrap during their 4th NBA seasons.
And you know what's, nuts?
Allan Houston = 25 years old (during his 4th year).
John Starks = 27 years old (during his 4th year).
Wake up people;
R.J. Barrett is only 22 freaking years old right now!
He's played a lot more SG throughout his career in comparison to SF and @ 6'6 he's imo a more natural fit @ SG than SF etc.
But nonetheless you might think it's ridiculous but before R.J. Barrett's even completed his 4th NBA season he's already got more Points Scored and more Rebounds Boarded than even Kobe Bryant had after Kobe's 1st 4 (full) seasons; now that's what I consider... Ridiculous.
R.J. Barrett is a phenom NBA prospect and some NY fans aren't even realizing it yet (but I am).
Sure and this plus sized model looks like Kim Kardashian. 👍
BigDaddyG wrote:NYKMentality wrote:Sure and this plus sized model looks like Kim Kardashian. ;BigDaddyG wrote:He's played a lot more SG throughout his career in comparison to SF and @ 6'6 he's imo a more natural fit @ SG than SF etc.NYKMentality wrote:One more thing.I could've sworn RJ played small forward; You keep saying RJ is not the next Kobe Bryant only to keep comparing him to Kobe Bryant. I get it, fan is short for fanatic. But this Kobe Bryant is ridiculous.What did Kobe Bryant average during his 4th NBA season while being blessed alongside of Shaq O'Neal?
22.5 Points per game off .468% from the field + 6.3 Rebounds Per game.
R.J. as a 4th year player is already @ 20.3 Points per game and 5.5 rebounds per game.
Yes.
Kobe was more efficient etc but what R.J. Barrett is doing as a scorer is simply to be proud of because he's only going to continue to get stronger and more dominant moving forward.
Am I saying R.J. Barrett is the next Kobe Bryant?
Nope.
But what I am saying is this...
R.J. Barrett is on his way to developing before becoming the greatest overall SG (that I've ever witnessed) as an NYK fan (within Franchise History); sorry John Starks and H2O.
Because neither one of John Starks nor Allan Houston could hold R.J. Barrett's jockstrap during their 4th NBA seasons.
And you know what's, nuts?
Allan Houston = 25 years old (during his 4th year).
John Starks = 27 years old (during his 4th year).
Wake up people;
R.J. Barrett is only 22 freaking years old right now!
But nonetheless you might think it's ridiculous but before R.J. Barrett's even completed his 4th NBA season he's already got more Points Scored and more Rebounds Boarded than even Kobe Bryant had after Kobe's 1st 4 (full) seasons; now that's what I consider... Ridiculous.
R.J. Barrett is a phenom NBA prospect and some NY fans aren't even realizing it yet (but I am).
Hey man.
Good job of trying to deflect away from the fact that...
Before R.J. Barrett's even completed his 4th NBA season he's already got more Points Scored and more Rebounds Boarded than even Kobe Bryant had after Kobe's 1st 4 (full) seasons (and has done it without an All-Time Great Shaq in his Prime @ Center too).
By his 4th season, Kobe had 2 all stat appearances and was also the starting SG on a team that won a championship.
To think those 2 guys deserve to be anywhere in the same sentence in terms of talent is insane. But keep pounding the counting stats that are just inflated cause of playing time. I have no idea what purpose they serve.
RJ still string to figure out how to not throw the ball to opponents at the end of tight games during his 4th season as a pro while Kobe was busy winning a ring.
Kobe’s 4 season included 2 all star appearances and a ring. Compare those stats.
martin wrote:Kobe Bryant was drafted at 18 years old onto a playoff team. He came off bench his first 2 years, averaging 15 and then 26 minutes per.By his 4th season, Kobe had 2 all stat appearances and was also the starting SG on a team that won a championship.
To think those 2 guys deserve to be anywhere in the same sentence in terms of talent is insane.
But keep pounding the counting stats that are just inflated cause of playing time.
Ok. Fair enough.
Now?
Let's compare both of RJs and Kobe's #'s during years 3 & 4 (while both were getting Starter minutes).
Kobe Bryant's 3rd and 4th years (combined)
4,420 Minutes Played.
2,481 Points.
680 Rebounds.
513 Assists.
FG% of .466%.
339 Turnovers.
R.J. Barrett's 3rd and 4th years (combined)
4,006 Minutes Played.
2,328 Points.
655 Rebounds.
336 Assists.
FG% of .418%.
255 Turnovers.
So let's just throw that "pounding stats that are just inflated cause of playing time" argument out the window because as you can see...
R.J. Barrett despite an entire 414 fewer minutes played than Kobe is only 153 Points short of Kobe, 25 Rebounds short of Kobe and currently 84 Turnovers fewer than Kobe along with another 29 games remaining and/or another 414 minutes of playing time in order to close the gap in Assists as well (trailing Kobe by 177 Assists as of right now).
Yes.
R.J. Barrett's years 3-4 overall numbers in Points/Rebounds/Assists/Turnovers are extremely similar to Kobe Bryant's years 3-4.
Kobe has the edge in FG% no doubt but other than that I'm extremely excited over the 1st 4 years of R.J. Barrett's NBA development/trajectory.
NYKMentality wrote:except his defense has not been good, he's not an awesome rebounder and he plays SF. But yeah... 6th man is about right from what he has SHOWN. You are spot on there.HofstraBBall wrote:NYKMentality wrote:JoeC.Agree with this.Exactly.
There's no way I'm going to trade away our most promising and youngest player on our entire team in R.J. Barrett @ the age of only 22 years old; because I personally believe by the time he's 26 years of age he'll already have developed into a Perennial All-Star.
He's in his 4th NBA year but yet still younger than several incoming Rookies; his talents + potential are both through the roof.
However, need to see consistent improvement for this to take place.
Or else he will be one of the many NBA players with tremendous potential yet underachieved.
Biggest thing for me is working on his passing and all around bball IQ.
Kid so far is just a scorer. Which get him to sixth man status.I agree with what you're saying but he's also an awesome rebounder for a SG and also tremendous on ball Defense too.
fishmike wrote:NYKMentality wrote:except his defense has not been good, he's not an awesome rebounder and he plays SF. But yeah... 6th man is about right from what he has SHOWN. You are spot on there.HofstraBBall wrote:I agree with what you're saying but he's also an awesome rebounder for a SG and also tremendous on ball Defense too.NYKMentality wrote:JoeC.Agree with this.Exactly.
There's no way I'm going to trade away our most promising and youngest player on our entire team in R.J. Barrett @ the age of only 22 years old; because I personally believe by the time he's 26 years of age he'll already have developed into a Perennial All-Star.
He's in his 4th NBA year but yet still younger than several incoming Rookies; his talents + potential are both through the roof.
However, need to see consistent improvement for this to take place.
Or else he will be one of the many NBA players with tremendous potential yet underachieved.
Biggest thing for me is working on his passing and all around bball IQ.
Kid so far is just a scorer. Which get him to sixth man status.
He's playing SF but @ 6'6 he's a natural SG and for 6'6 he is an awesome rebounder.
And @ only 22 years of age you're calling him a "6th man"?
Yeah. Okay.
Because you can't name me not even 10 NBA Players All-Time before the age of 23 with as many Points, Rebounds and Assists (combined) as R.J. Barrett.
1.) ____
2.) ____
3.) ____
4.) ____
5.) ____
6.) ____
7.) ____
8.) ____
9.) ____
10.) ____
Good luck (because I know you won't be able to fill in the blanks).
NYKMentality wrote:Dude... NOBODY can fill your blanks. Maybe just do us a favor and fill your scripts?fishmike wrote:NYKMentality wrote:except his defense has not been good, he's not an awesome rebounder and he plays SF. But yeah... 6th man is about right from what he has SHOWN. You are spot on there.HofstraBBall wrote:I agree with what you're saying but he's also an awesome rebounder for a SG and also tremendous on ball Defense too.NYKMentality wrote:JoeC.Agree with this.Exactly.
There's no way I'm going to trade away our most promising and youngest player on our entire team in R.J. Barrett @ the age of only 22 years old; because I personally believe by the time he's 26 years of age he'll already have developed into a Perennial All-Star.
He's in his 4th NBA year but yet still younger than several incoming Rookies; his talents + potential are both through the roof.
However, need to see consistent improvement for this to take place.
Or else he will be one of the many NBA players with tremendous potential yet underachieved.
Biggest thing for me is working on his passing and all around bball IQ.
Kid so far is just a scorer. Which get him to sixth man status.He's playing SF but @ 6'6 he's a natural SG and for 6'6 he is an awesome rebounder.
And @ only 22 years of age you're calling him a "6th man"?
Yeah. Okay.
Because you can't name me not even 10 NBA Players All-Time before the age of 23 with as many Points, Rebounds and Assists (combined) as R.J. Barrett.
1.) ____
2.) ____
3.) ____
4.) ____
5.) ____
6.) ____
7.) ____
8.) ____
9.) ____
10.) ____Good luck (because I know you won't be able to fill in the blanks).