Knicks · Knicks need a stretch 4/ big shooter off the bench (page 4)
Knickoftime wrote:Now that I have a few...martin wrote:Knickoftime wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:ccch wrote:Would love to see Hart replace Barrett. What a waste of a # 3 pick. His defense and shooting is below average. I'm getting sick of seeing him go 4 for 14, 2 for 12...etc. I think he's definitely the week link in our starting 5.You say that, but then Barrett is the reason we beat a team like Miami without Brunson. Just have to deal with the inconsistencies until he develops. He’s 22.
What’s the Mendoza line of age and number of years experience RJ has in terms of expectations of being an average performing offensive a defensive player?
There isn't.
I've seen guys break out in year 6 and 7.
Fact is, Barrett's numbers have improved from 10 feet in, pretty significantly in fact.
Overall there's actually been some progress on the offensive end. .25 to .30 % points in 3 pt shooting (and not being so cold and hot in that order) would do his profile and perception wonders.
Not smart enough to comment on his defense and I'll say he probably is the weak link in the starting (healthy) line-up.
Concerns are legit, and his path will be a slow one if he ever does breakout, but I'm not a fatalist I have no reason to assume he's a finished product.
Sure there is, there is plenty of evidence we can gather using both age and experience and how that plays out in terms of development and what we can, should, or hope expect. I'm hoping you didn't interpret "Mendoza line" as a hard line of sorts, these things probably have some sort of standard deviation to glean from; the odd guy who breaks out later in the process may be an anomaly or just circumstance or something else and not very informative.
Any attempt to do that has to be very comprehensive.
Needs to account for the fact (for example) that many NBA don't don't get a chance to break out in mid 20s.
Barrett will be an anomaly to begin with because of the amount of 22 year olds that will have played the volume has.
Most guys who weren't handed a starting role like was has struggle with efficiency like he has may never reach year 6 or 7 (etc.) TO break out.
Yes, a break out in year 6 or 7 would be unusual, but a mitigating factor is getting an opportunity to break out in year 6 or 7 would also be unusual.
So thumbnailing the premise of Barrett being a late bloomer probably leads you to probably not on our proposed Mendoza line. But my interest in sports IS in fact the unpredictable and unusual (which is actually pretty usual.
Keeping it in town, lot of people who believe the know sports wrote of Daniel Jones, because he was on the wrong side of said mendoza line.
I'm not saying RJ can't break out. I'm looking at his feet and seeing how slow they are and noting he will never move fast enough to be a good defender. I am looking at the fact that RJ is still a very below average shooter (outside of FT's) and noting that shooters of that quality (especially ones who have been working with a specialized shooting trainer, one of the best, for a very long time) rarely make that leap.Here is the thing about RJ, which for me opens the door to him being a potential anomaly.
He has an unusual 3 pt shooting variance. He can go from terrible for long stretches to very good for equally long stretches. Went a season over .400 from three.
Was terrible in October and November to perfectly fine December and January.
I don't know if that suggests an unfixable mechanical flaw. Suggests to me a potential mental issue. Doesn't seem its easier to fix than mechanical, just suggests to me he can get locked in for sustainable stretches. Strikes me a something to work with, particularly given his age.
What is the context of RJ's improvements? Is he at average yet (because obviously if you go from awful to not too awful, who cares?)? And by those same trends, how long will him to get to average and then above it?That's a biased premise. Whether he's at average "yet" isn't the point. But anyway.
This season he's shooting careers highs closer to the basket. Legit strides. .633 0-3 feet (previous career high .605) and .383 3 to 10 feet (.318 previous high)
More to the point of my Mendoza line statement: when can we start to realize that 22 going on 23 this summer really is not a heavy factor much more, especially combined with number of years training and experience he has.We can do that when it's actually proven, rather than just assumed ... would be my answer.
And even then, my first expectation in professional sports is not to be surprised when I'm surprised.
I have no desire or can think of a utility of putting Barrett on either side of a line, even broadly.
The cross section of talent, age, training, experience is hard. It can't and will never be proven, maybe not in the way you are suggesting, and definitely not in something like these forums. For short, it's called scouting and coming to some broad guidelines and then conclusions. I'm not here to prove it, just describe it.
I am a little surprised at some of your statements, they don't seem like you've put your usual time/thought into them.
martin wrote:Knickoftime wrote:Now that I have a few...martin wrote:Knickoftime wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:ccch wrote:Would love to see Hart replace Barrett. What a waste of a # 3 pick. His defense and shooting is below average. I'm getting sick of seeing him go 4 for 14, 2 for 12...etc. I think he's definitely the week link in our starting 5.You say that, but then Barrett is the reason we beat a team like Miami without Brunson. Just have to deal with the inconsistencies until he develops. He’s 22.
What’s the Mendoza line of age and number of years experience RJ has in terms of expectations of being an average performing offensive a defensive player?
There isn't.
I've seen guys break out in year 6 and 7.
Fact is, Barrett's numbers have improved from 10 feet in, pretty significantly in fact.
Overall there's actually been some progress on the offensive end. .25 to .30 % points in 3 pt shooting (and not being so cold and hot in that order) would do his profile and perception wonders.
Not smart enough to comment on his defense and I'll say he probably is the weak link in the starting (healthy) line-up.
Concerns are legit, and his path will be a slow one if he ever does breakout, but I'm not a fatalist I have no reason to assume he's a finished product.
Sure there is, there is plenty of evidence we can gather using both age and experience and how that plays out in terms of development and what we can, should, or hope expect. I'm hoping you didn't interpret "Mendoza line" as a hard line of sorts, these things probably have some sort of standard deviation to glean from; the odd guy who breaks out later in the process may be an anomaly or just circumstance or something else and not very informative.
Any attempt to do that has to be very comprehensive.
Needs to account for the fact (for example) that many NBA don't don't get a chance to break out in mid 20s.
Barrett will be an anomaly to begin with because of the amount of 22 year olds that will have played the volume has.
Most guys who weren't handed a starting role like was has struggle with efficiency like he has may never reach year 6 or 7 (etc.) TO break out.
Yes, a break out in year 6 or 7 would be unusual, but a mitigating factor is getting an opportunity to break out in year 6 or 7 would also be unusual.
So thumbnailing the premise of Barrett being a late bloomer probably leads you to probably not on our proposed Mendoza line. But my interest in sports IS in fact the unpredictable and unusual (which is actually pretty usual.
Keeping it in town, lot of people who believe the know sports wrote of Daniel Jones, because he was on the wrong side of said mendoza line.
I'm not saying RJ can't break out. I'm looking at his feet and seeing how slow they are and noting he will never move fast enough to be a good defender. I am looking at the fact that RJ is still a very below average shooter (outside of FT's) and noting that shooters of that quality (especially ones who have been working with a specialized shooting trainer, one of the best, for a very long time) rarely make that leap.Here is the thing about RJ, which for me opens the door to him being a potential anomaly.
He has an unusual 3 pt shooting variance. He can go from terrible for long stretches to very good for equally long stretches. Went a season over .400 from three.
Was terrible in October and November to perfectly fine December and January.
I don't know if that suggests an unfixable mechanical flaw. Suggests to me a potential mental issue. Doesn't seem its easier to fix than mechanical, just suggests to me he can get locked in for sustainable stretches. Strikes me a something to work with, particularly given his age.
What is the context of RJ's improvements? Is he at average yet (because obviously if you go from awful to not too awful, who cares?)? And by those same trends, how long will him to get to average and then above it?That's a biased premise. Whether he's at average "yet" isn't the point. But anyway.
This season he's shooting careers highs closer to the basket. Legit strides. .633 0-3 feet (previous career high .605) and .383 3 to 10 feet (.318 previous high)
More to the point of my Mendoza line statement: when can we start to realize that 22 going on 23 this summer really is not a heavy factor much more, especially combined with number of years training and experience he has.We can do that when it's actually proven, rather than just assumed ... would be my answer.
And even then, my first expectation in professional sports is not to be surprised when I'm surprised.
I have no desire or can think of a utility of putting Barrett on either side of a line, even broadly.
The cross section of talent, age, training, experience is hard. It can't and will never be proven, maybe not in the way you are suggesting, and definitely not in something like these forums. For short, it's called scouting and coming to some broad guidelines and then conclusions. I'm not here to prove it, just describe it.
I am a little surprised at some of your statements, they don't seem like you've put your usual time/thought into them.
Which ones?
Look, I'll admit I have an utter distaste for the regularly scheduled finding of a boogeyman that a sect of EVERY community of sports fandom NEEDS. I just have a hard time understanding how grownups engage in this bitter and resentful behavior unaware of its psychological underpinnings. So I will tend to defend guys who have nothing wrong other than to not be better players than they are.
That said, Barrett is under contract for a while, and has the confidence of the head coach until he doesn't. It does nothing for me to take a hard stance on what he can't do. I chose to consider what he can maybe do. And exceptions in sports happen ... unexceptionally.
If for reasons I don't understand the Nets or Raptors desire to take him in a trade for Bridges for Anunoby, I have no problem with that. But until then I'm not going to join the 'I mad because he sucks choir', because they sing badly.
But he has gotten better in some areas. His long-rage shooting does have extreme variance. He is 22. There is the fact many 26 year old never break out because they're no longer in the NBA by 26. Those are all facts. Do with them what you like while he's a member of the Knicks.
Knickoftime wrote:martin wrote:Knickoftime wrote:Now that I have a few...martin wrote:Knickoftime wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:ccch wrote:Would love to see Hart replace Barrett. What a waste of a # 3 pick. His defense and shooting is below average. I'm getting sick of seeing him go 4 for 14, 2 for 12...etc. I think he's definitely the week link in our starting 5.You say that, but then Barrett is the reason we beat a team like Miami without Brunson. Just have to deal with the inconsistencies until he develops. He’s 22.
What’s the Mendoza line of age and number of years experience RJ has in terms of expectations of being an average performing offensive a defensive player?
There isn't.
I've seen guys break out in year 6 and 7.
Fact is, Barrett's numbers have improved from 10 feet in, pretty significantly in fact.
Overall there's actually been some progress on the offensive end. .25 to .30 % points in 3 pt shooting (and not being so cold and hot in that order) would do his profile and perception wonders.
Not smart enough to comment on his defense and I'll say he probably is the weak link in the starting (healthy) line-up.
Concerns are legit, and his path will be a slow one if he ever does breakout, but I'm not a fatalist I have no reason to assume he's a finished product.
Sure there is, there is plenty of evidence we can gather using both age and experience and how that plays out in terms of development and what we can, should, or hope expect. I'm hoping you didn't interpret "Mendoza line" as a hard line of sorts, these things probably have some sort of standard deviation to glean from; the odd guy who breaks out later in the process may be an anomaly or just circumstance or something else and not very informative.
Any attempt to do that has to be very comprehensive.
Needs to account for the fact (for example) that many NBA don't don't get a chance to break out in mid 20s.
Barrett will be an anomaly to begin with because of the amount of 22 year olds that will have played the volume has.
Most guys who weren't handed a starting role like was has struggle with efficiency like he has may never reach year 6 or 7 (etc.) TO break out.
Yes, a break out in year 6 or 7 would be unusual, but a mitigating factor is getting an opportunity to break out in year 6 or 7 would also be unusual.
So thumbnailing the premise of Barrett being a late bloomer probably leads you to probably not on our proposed Mendoza line. But my interest in sports IS in fact the unpredictable and unusual (which is actually pretty usual.
Keeping it in town, lot of people who believe the know sports wrote of Daniel Jones, because he was on the wrong side of said mendoza line.
I'm not saying RJ can't break out. I'm looking at his feet and seeing how slow they are and noting he will never move fast enough to be a good defender. I am looking at the fact that RJ is still a very below average shooter (outside of FT's) and noting that shooters of that quality (especially ones who have been working with a specialized shooting trainer, one of the best, for a very long time) rarely make that leap.Here is the thing about RJ, which for me opens the door to him being a potential anomaly.
He has an unusual 3 pt shooting variance. He can go from terrible for long stretches to very good for equally long stretches. Went a season over .400 from three.
Was terrible in October and November to perfectly fine December and January.
I don't know if that suggests an unfixable mechanical flaw. Suggests to me a potential mental issue. Doesn't seem its easier to fix than mechanical, just suggests to me he can get locked in for sustainable stretches. Strikes me a something to work with, particularly given his age.
What is the context of RJ's improvements? Is he at average yet (because obviously if you go from awful to not too awful, who cares?)? And by those same trends, how long will him to get to average and then above it?That's a biased premise. Whether he's at average "yet" isn't the point. But anyway.
This season he's shooting careers highs closer to the basket. Legit strides. .633 0-3 feet (previous career high .605) and .383 3 to 10 feet (.318 previous high)
More to the point of my Mendoza line statement: when can we start to realize that 22 going on 23 this summer really is not a heavy factor much more, especially combined with number of years training and experience he has.We can do that when it's actually proven, rather than just assumed ... would be my answer.
And even then, my first expectation in professional sports is not to be surprised when I'm surprised.
I have no desire or can think of a utility of putting Barrett on either side of a line, even broadly.
The cross section of talent, age, training, experience is hard. It can't and will never be proven, maybe not in the way you are suggesting, and definitely not in something like these forums. For short, it's called scouting and coming to some broad guidelines and then conclusions. I'm not here to prove it, just describe it.
I am a little surprised at some of your statements, they don't seem like you've put your usual time/thought into them.
Which ones?
Look, I'll admit I have an utter distaste for the regularly scheduled finding of a boogeyman that a sect of EVERY community of sports fandom NEEDS. I just have a hard time understanding how grownups engage in this bitter and resentful behavior unaware of its psychological underpinnings. So I will tend to defend guys who have nothing wrong other than to not be better players than they are.
That said, Barrett is under contract for a while, and has the confidence of the head coach until he doesn't. It does nothing for me to take a hard stance on what he can't do. I chose to consider what he can maybe do. And exceptions in sports happen ... unexceptionally.
If for reasons I don't understand the Nets or Raptors desire to take him in a trade for Bridges for Anunoby, I have no problem with that. But until then I'm not going to join the 'I mad because he sucks choir', because they sing badly.
But he has gotten better in some areas. His long-rage shooting does have extreme variance. He is 22. There is the fact many 26 year old never break out because they're no longer in the NBA by 26. Those are all facts. Do with them what you like while he's a member of the Knicks.
Could not have summed up how I feel any better.
Rookie wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Obi just doesnt fit in this offense, operating mostly from the corner. The FO needs to put Thibs in a position whete he feels comfortable benching Randle in the 4th, if necessary. Just like he did with RJ. We need a strong 4th quarter finisher at the 4. Starting or off the bench.The good news is that the FO has the resources to find that player.
Benching Randle is a recipe for disaster. If he’s not the guy then you have to trade him. I think it’s more about roster fit and roles. We need more consistent shooting from the guard and wing position. If Grimes can’t get there he shouldn’t start or finish but I do think he can get there and the experience is good for his growth. RJ however is never going to be a consistently good shooter and has been low IQ in pressure situations. I won’t even mention his defense. Mikal Bridges at the 3 would be a massive upgrade. I would go all in for that. High IQ total package and team player lockeroom guy
See...not to hijack this thread but this here is BS....first off, RJ is younger than Grimes. Second, to accept as a given that one player will improve and the other won't is ludicrous. and C, I can count numerous times off the top of my head that RJ has come up clutch for this team. I find it much easier to come up with times that Grimes has brain farted in the clutch (especially that two/three week span where he was REALLY having issues), than been able to be dependable.
This is the type of bias that gets repeated because the shiny new toy has to be talked up. All players have warts.
I'll start a new thread on this if need be to not hijack this one, but come on. Can't we be freaking reasonable here?