Knicks · I would bench RJ for rest of the way (page 1)

His best moments are attacking the basket with our bench and vs. the other team's 2nd unit. This is not meant as a slight, rather an observation.

Meanwhile Grimes leads all non center rotation players in EFG%, has shown the clutch gene and is showing to be an elite defender. His first step is sick. He's a streaky shooter but think his jumper is fantastic and #s will continue to go up.

Flip side of the coin is RJ can hunt for his shots off the bench which is a positive for us. Hart is a perfect role player and a better defender than RJ (by alot)

Brunson/Grimes/Hart/Jules/Mitch (that's a TOUGH squad)
bench: IQ/RJ/Hart/Obi (in order of minutes preference)

Fastest way to improve: make things easier for RJ, more shots for Grimes

OMG I thought you were advocating that he should be benched and not play! Wow, I thought fish has come around!

Totally agree and I think I'd keep his minutes at a similar, if slightly less level - and give him a chance to develop into the winning player we know he can be and has shown.

It's also about balance, and giving our 2nd unit a boost.

Do you think Thibs would do this? I have a hard time seeing it.

Think of it this way. Alec Burks was 1/4 Kobe. Played like about 1 out of every 4 games. Otherwise he was meh.

RJ this season has been like... 1/2 Kobe. He's amazing for stretches of games, then an has an equally poor stretch. It's like he's a totally different player when things aren't going well. He's like... Alec Burks on a bad day.

franco12 wrote:OMG I thought you were advocating that he should be benched and not play! Wow, I thought fish has come around!

Totally agree and I think I'd keep his minutes at a similar, if slightly less level - and give him a chance to develop into the winning player we know he can be and has shown.

It's also about balance, and giving our 2nd unit a boost.

Do you think Thibs would do this? I have a hard time seeing it.

well we know Thibs at least looks at all the analytics and numbers. We also know he's fiercely loyal to his guys, but its hard to see where RJ fits in that pecking order. The thing is this isnt a slight tweak. I mean RJ is our least EF% player and somehow is taking close to the same amount of shots as Brunson and Randle and that simply doesnt make sense.

RJ's isnt going anywhere IMO, and its equally important to get him simply playing better

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:OMG I thought you were advocating that he should be benched and not play! Wow, I thought fish has come around!

Totally agree and I think I'd keep his minutes at a similar, if slightly less level - and give him a chance to develop into the winning player we know he can be and has shown.

It's also about balance, and giving our 2nd unit a boost.

Do you think Thibs would do this? I have a hard time seeing it.

well we know Thibs at least looks at all the analytics and numbers. We also know he's fiercely loyal to his guys, but its hard to see where RJ fits in that pecking order. The thing is this isnt a slight tweak. I mean RJ is our least EF% player and somehow is taking close to the same amount of shots as Brunson and Randle and that simply doesnt make sense.

RJ's isnt going anywhere IMO, and its equally important to get him simply playing better

I think a person coming in with a complete set of fresh eyes would probably make this move in a heartbeat.

The reason not to do it is our media would tear this thing apart and it would be a bigger distraction than needed.

But if we’re being honest about getting RJ on track, is there a better option?

My criticism of Thibs would be sticking with something long past time because of that loyalty.

Honestly, if it were done right, and positioned to all (media and player) as a fresh challenge (we need more scoring on the 2nd unit vs. RJ’s an inefficient checker and killing us, we need him to improve), then it really could be a great way to close out the year strong and hopefully unlock the potential we have seen from RJ, in flashes this year, and last year after everyone went down and the season was lost.

fishmike wrote:His best moments are attacking the basket with our bench and vs. the other team's 2nd unit. This is not meant as a slight, rather an observation.

Meanwhile Grimes leads all non center rotation players in EFG%, has shown the clutch gene and is showing to be an elite defender. His first step is sick. He's a streaky shooter but think his jumper is fantastic and #s will continue to go up.

Flip side of the coin is RJ can hunt for his shots off the bench which is a positive for us. Hart is a perfect role player and a better defender than RJ (by alot)

Brunson/Grimes/Hart/Jules/Mitch (that's a TOUGH squad)
bench: IQ/RJ/Hart/Obi (in order of minutes preference)

Fastest way to improve: make things easier for RJ, more shots for Grimes

I would agree with this, if we were looking to see how we can better compete in just the NEXT game.
Think coaches need to consider the long term affects of a move like this. Like Randle, last year, we have to consider how Knicks view RJ. Right now, they view him as a "Major" piece of the future, rest of this year and playoffs. Because of that, it would be a mistake to send RJ to the bench. Think Thibs knows this and knows he needs one of his best players to regain his form/confidence. Something that will not happen by benching him.
Do agree about RJ's bad fit with Randle and JB. I have stated the same many times before. However, if that is how the Knicks also feel, the move that will be made is a trade. You just don't bench one of your main pieces unless you are planning moving on completely.

I do not like RJ's fit. Don't like how he always has blinders on and does not affect the game other than scoring. I am hoping he improves and think he will. Think we give him one more year of complete support. Which includes starting. If he does not improve his "All Around" game after that, then we look to move him at next deadline.

The Knicks are winning, RJ is playing with the reserves just as much as the starters, and he’s only finishing games when he’s playing well. Benching him would piss him off and disrupt chemistry. And for wha benefit? There’s more downside than upside since he’s already playing with the second unit.

RJ has proved in the past to turn it on in the second half of the season. He should continue to start but get the EF treatment (if he continues to slump) before EF was removed from rotation. Early yank and only play 3 quarters. That’s thibs next move. But for now keep his confidence high. It’s called development. Once he’s into his contract (hasn’t started yet) then you might see major moves like a trade. But to save face they will try to fix RJ first and see the results. I’m sure they are doing that as we speak over this past break.

An efficient RJ gets us to the 2nd round. When he’s on he’s very impactful, especially as a closer. I think he will continue to play with the 2nd unit during the game but continue to start. Any other coach besides Thibs, it’s a different story. This is why players love the guy. RJ will get it.

In the longterm, Brunson and Randle need a consistent 3rd wheel in that starting unit which is obvious. Hart is the perfect type of player.

Knixkik wrote:The Knicks are winning, RJ is playing with the reserves just as much as the starters, and he’s only finishing games when he’s playing well. Benching him would piss him off and disrupt chemistry. And for wha benefit? There’s more downside than upside since he’s already playing with the second unit.

Well said.

Knixkik wrote:The Knicks are winning, RJ is playing with the reserves just as much as the starters, and he’s only finishing games when he’s playing well. Benching him would piss him off and disrupt chemistry. And for wha benefit? There’s more downside than upside since he’s already playing with the second unit.

Yep, exactly. Have to look at the cons of such a decision more closely. We have witnessed Thibs sitting RJ in the fourth..RJs reaction wasn't stellar. Hart guarding SF in the starting lineup will wear the man down and make him less effective overall. Hart, as a sub, also fits better with his uptempo play more so than with the starters because we already have pieces that fit the running game on the bench, not so much with the starters.What RJ seems to lack is the understanding that scoring at the basket would be easier for him if his defender wasn't 100% sure that RJ will not pass. So, as was previously mentioned, RJ really needs to up his passing game to open up his drives.

ramtour420 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:The Knicks are winning, RJ is playing with the reserves just as much as the starters, and he’s only finishing games when he’s playing well. Benching him would piss him off and disrupt chemistry. And for wha benefit? There’s more downside than upside since he’s already playing with the second unit.

Yep, exactly. Have to look at the cons of such a decision more closely. We have witnessed Thibs sitting RJ in the fourth..RJs reaction wasn't stellar. Hart guarding SF in the starting lineup will wear the man down and make him less effective overall. Hart, as a sub, also fits better with his uptempo play more so than with the starters because we already have pieces that fit the running game on the bench, not so much with the starters.What RJ seems to lack is the understanding that scoring at the basket would be easier for him if his defender wasn't 100% sure that RJ will not pass. So, as was previously mentioned, RJ really needs to up his passing game to open up his drives.

One thing people don’t always consider is this isn’t 2k where you just flip guys around with no regard. There’s a human element and a lockerroom/ chemistry dynamic that has to be considered. It’s not as simple as it may seem on paper. When you look at the way things are going right now, why is thibs going to disrupt the team in a major way? This is the nba. Guys just don’t get benched. Something would have to go very wrong for a high profile starter to get benched. RJ either figures it out or he will get traded.

Knixkik wrote:The Knicks are winning, RJ is playing with the reserves just as much as the starters, and he’s only finishing games when he’s playing well. Benching him would piss him off and disrupt chemistry. And for wha benefit? There’s more downside than upside since he’s already playing with the second unit.

This ^

If RJ continues to backslide, then let's talk. Thibs isn't likely to make major decisions based on data analysis alone. Players are human and team chemistry is based at least in part on emotional parameters.

I don't agree

I think his performance warrants coming off the bench

That said, he just got an extension and is 22 years old... I don't think at 22 I would handle that situation very well. I don't think we're winning a championship this year so it seems foolish to risk having RJ being perceived as having his nose rubbed in it

I think Hofstra has it right. RJ needs to find other ways to contribute

yes he is helping second unit but we also need to consider whether this is in fact encouraging one of his not so great traits, i.e., that he can turn into a ball hog. He's not good enough of a scorer to justify the hogginess -- very few are and most who are good enough are also good/smart enough to still move the ball more, contribute more consistently on D, etc.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:OMG I thought you were advocating that he should be benched and not play! Wow, I thought fish has come around!

Totally agree and I think I'd keep his minutes at a similar, if slightly less level - and give him a chance to develop into the winning player we know he can be and has shown.

It's also about balance, and giving our 2nd unit a boost.

Do you think Thibs would do this? I have a hard time seeing it.

well we know Thibs at least looks at all the analytics and numbers. We also know he's fiercely loyal to his guys, but its hard to see where RJ fits in that pecking order. The thing is this isnt a slight tweak. I mean RJ is our least EF% player and somehow is taking close to the same amount of shots as Brunson and Randle and that simply doesnt make sense.

RJ's isnt going anywhere IMO, and its equally important to get him simply playing better

I think a person coming in with a complete set of fresh eyes would probably make this move in a heartbeat.

The reason not to do it is our media would tear this thing apart and it would be a bigger distraction than needed.

But if we’re being honest about getting RJ on track, is there a better option?

My criticism of Thibs would be sticking with something long past time because of that loyalty.

Honestly, if it were done right, and positioned to all (media and player) as a fresh challenge (we need more scoring on the 2nd unit vs. RJ’s an inefficient checker and killing us, we need him to improve), then it really could be a great way to close out the year strong and hopefully unlock the potential we have seen from RJ, in flashes this year, and last year after everyone went down and the season was lost.

Honest question: Would you have stuck with Randle in the way Thibs and FO did? Those guys have the most info on the players and what they are doing.

As much as I do not care for RJ the player right now, I'd stick with him in starting lineup for the rest of the year at least. Part of that has to do with really not liking (likely starting candidate Hart) the alternatives. IMO Hart off bench is ideal.

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:OMG I thought you were advocating that he should be benched and not play! Wow, I thought fish has come around!

Totally agree and I think I'd keep his minutes at a similar, if slightly less level - and give him a chance to develop into the winning player we know he can be and has shown.

It's also about balance, and giving our 2nd unit a boost.

Do you think Thibs would do this? I have a hard time seeing it.

well we know Thibs at least looks at all the analytics and numbers. We also know he's fiercely loyal to his guys, but its hard to see where RJ fits in that pecking order. The thing is this isnt a slight tweak. I mean RJ is our least EF% player and somehow is taking close to the same amount of shots as Brunson and Randle and that simply doesnt make sense.

RJ's isnt going anywhere IMO, and its equally important to get him simply playing better

I think a person coming in with a complete set of fresh eyes would probably make this move in a heartbeat.

The reason not to do it is our media would tear this thing apart and it would be a bigger distraction than needed.

But if we’re being honest about getting RJ on track, is there a better option?

My criticism of Thibs would be sticking with something long past time because of that loyalty.

Honestly, if it were done right, and positioned to all (media and player) as a fresh challenge (we need more scoring on the 2nd unit vs. RJ’s an inefficient checker and killing us, we need him to improve), then it really could be a great way to close out the year strong and hopefully unlock the potential we have seen from RJ, in flashes this year, and last year after everyone went down and the season was lost.

Honest question: Would you have stuck with Randle in the way Thibs and FO did? Those guys have the most info on the players and what they are doing.

As much as I do not care for RJ the player right now, I'd stick with him in starting lineup for the rest of the year at least. Part of that has to do with really not liking (likely starting candidate Hart) the alternatives. IMO Hart off bench is ideal.

Good call on the Randle point. And I will say this. The starting lineup hasn’t been the issue. When the 5 starters are healthy, the starting lineup has been one of the best in the league. The issue was the bench and no one outside of Quickley really contributing. Hart being added changed that. And Hartenstein has figured out his issues, however much was Achilles or whatever. So we hopefully have the bench issues resolved. I wouldn’t shake things up just for the sake of RJ being inconsistent.

Knixkik wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:The Knicks are winning, RJ is playing with the reserves just as much as the starters, and he’s only finishing games when he’s playing well. Benching him would piss him off and disrupt chemistry. And for wha benefit? There’s more downside than upside since he’s already playing with the second unit.

Yep, exactly. Have to look at the cons of such a decision more closely. We have witnessed Thibs sitting RJ in the fourth..RJs reaction wasn't stellar. Hart guarding SF in the starting lineup will wear the man down and make him less effective overall. Hart, as a sub, also fits better with his uptempo play more so than with the starters because we already have pieces that fit the running game on the bench, not so much with the starters.What RJ seems to lack is the understanding that scoring at the basket would be easier for him if his defender wasn't 100% sure that RJ will not pass. So, as was previously mentioned, RJ really needs to up his passing game to open up his drives.

One thing people don’t always consider is this isn’t 2k where you just flip guys around with no regard. There’s a human element and a lockerroom/ chemistry dynamic that has to be considered. It’s not as simple as it may seem on paper. When you look at the way things are going right now, why is thibs going to disrupt the team in a major way? This is the nba. Guys just don’t get benched. Something would have to go very wrong for a high profile starter to get benched. RJ either figures it out or he will get traded.

I could not agree more. I have been a HUGE advocate of that, especially when guys say "why didnt coach bench xxx and play yyy" when yyy is like Cam Reddish or some shit.

However WHEN are you able to do it with "with regard"

Its literally been 3.5 years now. Maybe we wait to the offseason to just move him because he's not benchable?

What would the team say> You are giving the minutes to guys who have played better and shot better for 50+ plus games. This is not a bad week.

Is RJ so important to the chemistry of the team we just keep playing no matter what? Is there no end game beyond the offseason?

IMHO I think RJ will continue to start and play lots of his minutes with bench. I do think the team will focus on winning, and that means when RJ is not doing well his minutes will diminish.

BUT, the Knicks would like to keep RJ's value or pump it up. No 2 ways around that.

martin wrote:IMHO I think RJ will continue to start and play lots of his minutes with bench. I do think the team will focus on winning, and that means when RJ is not doing well his minutes will diminish.

BUT, the Knicks would like to keep RJ's value or pump it up. No 2 ways around that.

there's no doubt... I get it. He needs to at least "appear" wildly valueable to us. He's our Kobe.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...

And hey... FWIW I looked at the top 50 shot takers in the league (FGAs... RJ is #30) and found a few who are less EF% than RJ:
Rozier
McCollum
Jalen Green
Banchero
FVV

https://theknickswall.com/what-going-on-...

fishmike wrote:https://theknickswall.com/what-going-on-...

I get that Thibs is trying to protect his players, but really, are we to believe our eyes or what Thibs tells us isn't a major regression?

Even Clyde Frazier had some choice words, citing Barrett as the team’s worst defender, a claim Tom Thibodeau has pushed back on. “The way it works, defensively, it’s five guys working together, and the people that are tracking things, there’s no context to it,” Thibodeau said of Barrett’s defensive criticisms. “You don’t know whose responsibility it is to switch, you don’t know whose responsibility it is to show, you don’t know if there is a responsibility to stay down. You don’t know any of that.”

After reading this piece, I had no idea his recent performance has been this bad. You can't shoot 24% from 3 and have a future in this league.