Knicks · Donovan Mitchell revisited (page 1)

The Knicks are in peak form fitting in all cylinders. Offense was absolutely fearsome tonight.
Had me thinking, what would this team look like had it gone ahead with the Donovan Mitchell trade: say they traded IQ, Obi, plus whatever boatload of picks to go all in this year. What would they have landed? Would they be even better with the combo of JB and DM (minus IQ)? Or for some reason worse? (Defense or chemistry or some other factor)

Cavs are 39-26.

Last year's Cavs are 38-27.

Maybe the NBA needs to revisit the Donovan Mitchell the Knicks were supposed to be getting until they didn't - the guy Ainge had but traded and who still wasn't going to make the Knicks a contender if they got him?

Who cares about Donovan Mitchell?

The Cleveland Cavs (under Donovan Mitchell) have now lost 4 of 5 games throughout their previous 5 games (1-4) all while the Knicks are in the midst of a 7 game winning streak and also 9-1 previous 10 games (and now only -1.5 games behind his Cavaliers).

I'd mich rather have kept R.J. Barrett + keep Quentin Grimes + keep multiple 1st Round Draft Picks (6 1st round picks next 3 years).

Because I'm sorry but Donovan Mitchell isn't worth not even 10% of that (both currently and long term too).

Panos wrote:The Knicks are in peak form fitting in all cylinders. Offense was absolutely fearsome tonight.
Had me thinking, what would this team look like had it gone ahead with the Donovan Mitchell trade: say they traded IQ, Obi, plus whatever boatload of picks to go all in this year. What would they have landed? Would they be even better with the combo of JB and DM (minus IQ)? Or for some reason worse? (Defense or chemistry or some other factor)

You are forgetting Grimes. He was the main piece they wanted. IQ was a part of the package as well. Two of our best backcourt defenders at the time.

Who knows. Mitchell is a star and the chemistry might have been magical.
Or not………..

What clev is or not is not relevant as each team is different.
You want to judge after 60 games? OK. WE on a winning streak and CLEV lost a few in a row and want to feel good about it? Have a good time. Fact is they still ahead of us.

They need more depth and Mobley, who has the highest ceiling to continue his development. It was a “win now” trade but that is a three year window type “win now”.

Bottom line is our FO thought the price was too high and backed off. They had already gotten Brunson and rolled with that.
I would think even our FO is a bit surprised how well Jalen has done. Thibs is doing a top 5 COY job implementing a player that should be “Most improved” and if not for Mike Brown could be the COTY thus far. He said last year “I have to coach Randle better”.
He is.
ANd Mitch.
ANd all but RJ, our yoot is improving.
I would imagine OBI will want out as he is stuck behind Jules and needs minutes.
Grimes and IQ are doing great, and Despite RJ’s regression the team is winning!!!!
JHart is a great glue guy and should help RJ.

Speaking of which, his running sprints look awkward and I wonder if he has a season long “thing” that messing him up.
He has tightened up his game some the last few games over all. Knicks winning perhaps masks whats going on?

I was uncomfortable with the DM trade and glad it did not occur. With some hindsight even more so. If not for the Brunson Signing perhaps we pay that price. But we did not have to.

Nalod wrote:Who knows. Mitchell is a star and the chemistry might have been magical.
Or not………..

What clev is or not is not relevant as each team is different.
You want to judge after 60 games? OK. WE on a winning streak and CLEV lost a few in a row and want to feel good about it? Have a good time. Fact is they still ahead of us.

They need more depth and Mobley, who has the highest ceiling to continue his development. It was a “win now” trade but that is a three year window type “win now”.

Bottom line is our FO thought the price was too high and backed off. They had already gotten Brunson and rolled with that.
I would think even our FO is a bit surprised how well Jalen has done. Thibs is doing a top 5 COY job implementing a player that should be “Most improved” and if not for Mike Brown could be the COTY thus far. He said last year “I have to coach Randle better”.
He is.
ANd Mitch.
ANd all but RJ, our yoot is improving.
I would imagine OBI will want out as he is stuck behind Jules and needs minutes.
Grimes and IQ are doing great, and Despite RJ’s regression the team is winning!!!!
JHart is a great glue guy and should help RJ.

Speaking of which, his running sprints look awkward and I wonder if he has a season long “thing” that messing him up.
He has tightened up his game some the last few games over all. Knicks winning perhaps masks whats going on?

I was uncomfortable with the DM trade and glad it did not occur. With some hindsight even more so. If not for the Brunson Signing perhaps we pay that price. But we did not have to.

I disagree. It is indeed relevant because DM is a major reason for Cle being who they are. They added him WHILE keeping their core intact and have absolutely nothing to show for it so far. Granted it's only year one and we haven't seen them perform in the playoffs. So far it looks like we made the right choice of continuing to develop Grimes and IQ. Yes they are ahead of us still but they were ahead of us before the trade too. However the margin is has gotten smaller and that matters. This tread is not about predictions if three years from now, it's about seeing how things have played out so far. So far it doesn't look bad from our side, to say the least.

Nalod wrote:Who knows. Mitchell is a star and the chemistry might have been magical.
Or not………..

What clev is or not is not relevant as each team is different.
You want to judge after 60 games? OK. WE on a winning streak and CLEV lost a few in a row and want to feel good about it? Have a good time. Fact is they still ahead of us.

They need more depth and Mobley, who has the highest ceiling to continue his development. It was a “win now” trade but that is a three year window type “win now”.

Bottom line is our FO thought the price was too high and backed off. They had already gotten Brunson and rolled with that.
I would think even our FO is a bit surprised how well Jalen has done. Thibs is doing a top 5 COY job implementing a player that should be “Most improved” and if not for Mike Brown could be the COTY thus far. He said last year “I have to coach Randle better”.
He is.
ANd Mitch.
ANd all but RJ, our yoot is improving.
I would imagine OBI will want out as he is stuck behind Jules and needs minutes.
Grimes and IQ are doing great, and Despite RJ’s regression the team is winning!!!!
JHart is a great glue guy and should help RJ.

Speaking of which, his running sprints look awkward and I wonder if he has a season long “thing” that messing him up.
He has tightened up his game some the last few games over all. Knicks winning perhaps masks whats going on?

I was uncomfortable with the DM trade and glad it did not occur. With some hindsight even more so. If not for the Brunson Signing perhaps we pay that price. But we did not have to.

I think the point is the National Media has determined after 60 games the Knicks should have traded everything for Mitchell. When if they were objective they couldn't based on the facts on the ground at this moment

ramtour420 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Who knows. Mitchell is a star and the chemistry might have been magical.
Or not………..

What clev is or not is not relevant as each team is different.
You want to judge after 60 games? OK. WE on a winning streak and CLEV lost a few in a row and want to feel good about it? Have a good time. Fact is they still ahead of us.

They need more depth and Mobley, who has the highest ceiling to continue his development. It was a “win now” trade but that is a three year window type “win now”.

Bottom line is our FO thought the price was too high and backed off. They had already gotten Brunson and rolled with that.
I would think even our FO is a bit surprised how well Jalen has done. Thibs is doing a top 5 COY job implementing a player that should be “Most improved” and if not for Mike Brown could be the COTY thus far. He said last year “I have to coach Randle better”.
He is.
ANd Mitch.
ANd all but RJ, our yoot is improving.
I would imagine OBI will want out as he is stuck behind Jules and needs minutes.
Grimes and IQ are doing great, and Despite RJ’s regression the team is winning!!!!
JHart is a great glue guy and should help RJ.

Speaking of which, his running sprints look awkward and I wonder if he has a season long “thing” that messing him up.
He has tightened up his game some the last few games over all. Knicks winning perhaps masks whats going on?

I was uncomfortable with the DM trade and glad it did not occur. With some hindsight even more so. If not for the Brunson Signing perhaps we pay that price. But we did not have to.

I disagree. It is indeed relevant because DM is a major reason for Cle being who they are. They added him WHILE keeping their core intact and have absolutely nothing to show for it so far. Granted it's only year one and we haven't seen them perform in the playoffs. So far it looks like we made the right choice of continuing to develop Grimes and IQ. Yes they are ahead of us still but they were ahead of us before the trade too. However the margin is has gotten smaller and that matters. This tread is not about predictions if three years from now, it's about seeing how things have played out so far. So far it doesn't look bad from our side, to say the least.

Some discussion that insinuates plug and play.
We got Brunson. Clev did not. WE still looking up at them.
Our current winning streak and their losing streak is a convenient place to do this from our view.
A lot of good things are playing out for us thus far. Winning, or knicks taking care of its business is all that matters. Im thrilled with our depth for now. Changes logically will occur off season but we have lots of games to play before that.

Alpha1971 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Who knows. Mitchell is a star and the chemistry might have been magical.
Or not………..

What clev is or not is not relevant as each team is different.
You want to judge after 60 games? OK. WE on a winning streak and CLEV lost a few in a row and want to feel good about it? Have a good time. Fact is they still ahead of us.

They need more depth and Mobley, who has the highest ceiling to continue his development. It was a “win now” trade but that is a three year window type “win now”.

Bottom line is our FO thought the price was too high and backed off. They had already gotten Brunson and rolled with that.
I would think even our FO is a bit surprised how well Jalen has done. Thibs is doing a top 5 COY job implementing a player that should be “Most improved” and if not for Mike Brown could be the COTY thus far. He said last year “I have to coach Randle better”.
He is.
ANd Mitch.
ANd all but RJ, our yoot is improving.
I would imagine OBI will want out as he is stuck behind Jules and needs minutes.
Grimes and IQ are doing great, and Despite RJ’s regression the team is winning!!!!
JHart is a great glue guy and should help RJ.

Speaking of which, his running sprints look awkward and I wonder if he has a season long “thing” that messing him up.
He has tightened up his game some the last few games over all. Knicks winning perhaps masks whats going on?

I was uncomfortable with the DM trade and glad it did not occur. With some hindsight even more so. If not for the Brunson Signing perhaps we pay that price. But we did not have to.

I think the point is the National Media has determined after 60 games the Knicks should have traded everything for Mitchell. When if they were objective they couldn't based on the facts on the ground at this moment

SAS sets himself up for debates and its his gig. If DM succeeds and Cavs go further than us (it was expected) then he’ll jump back on the regret train in and play the hindsight card.
Knicks are exceeding expectations and after 60 games fans want retribution from media for them being to low?
Our season is about Randle and Brunson in a good way!

We gave up less to get Carmelo Anthony than what we offered Ainge to get Mitchell. We are the 5th seed in the East just one spot behind Cleveland

Donovan Mitchell would have been the best player on the Knicks. Easily. That said, the reason the Melo trade didn't pan out was because we had to fleece our own roster to get him. Been there, done that, no thanks to that Mitchell trade

Chemistry is important. Not so sure Brunson/Mitchell would have resulted in Brunson having the season he is now. As well as the chemistry with Randle. He might have trouble establishing himself in a lineup that has a backcourt which provides that much offense.

The next star the FO brings to the Knicks will hopefully have above average passing skills as well.

I really liked the ball movement vs. the Nets.

SupremeCommander wrote:Donovan Mitchell would have been the best player on the Knicks. Easily. That said, the reason the Melo trade didn't pan out was because we had to fleece our own roster to get him. Been there, done that, no thanks to that Mitchell trade

this. We are not only seeing Brunson/Randle playing great, we are really seeing that value of an elite supporting case and this feels like that. We can (and do) survive off nights from those two because of how good Mitch/Hart/RJ/Grimes/IQ/Hart/Obi have been.

A ton of variables at this point.

Baseline trade of IQ/Obi/Grimes/Fournier(salary) + picks for Mitchell.

- Depletes most of our wings. Cam in the rotation out of necessity.
- No Josh Hart trade without our pick.
- Rose or Deuce backup PG (more likely, DM takes over ballhandling in a 3 guard rotation, as we have now).
- Sims at backup PF.

Brunson/Deuce
Mitchell/Rose
RJ/Cam
Randle/Sims
Mitch/IHart

Concerns:

- Not much depth, be tough to adjust for injuries in the front court...like the time missed by RJ and Mitch this year.
- Hope that Cam/Thibs relationship doesn't blow up while we are relying on him.
- Not convinced Brunson goes Super Saiyan while sharing the backcourt with Mitchell. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.
- Does Julius bounce back the same way this year if he starts off the year as Robin, not Batman? If JB still explodes, how does Randle respond to being 3rd option?

We had a lot of things break our way this season, very easy to see (with the benefit of hindsight) how it could have gone very wrong.

Spida is a very good player. Not a great player. I'm only trading multiple first round picks for a great player.

I have zero regrets.

Plus we are sending Spida home for vacation in a few weeks.

Mitchell is really good. And in theory he could be the missing piece. But with the way Randle and Brunson are playing, maybe he takes away from them. There’s a good chance we aren’t any better with him simply because his skill set is redundant. But also if we had him than cleveland wouldn’t and we would be firmly locked in as a top 4 team in the East. But I’m good with where things stand now.

If we had acquired Mitchell by trade, it wouldn't have been all rainbows and butterflies.

The Cavs executed about as good a trade on paper as anyone could have hoped for.
* 4 returning starters - easy slot in for Mitchell
* the traded players were basically redundant pieces
* the first rounders that exchanged hands are a future problem

So the actual results:
* practically the same record as last year
* Garland's about the same, better FG%.
* Mobley has marginal improvements, better FG%, scoring up by 0.7ppg. The team probably expected him to challenge for an all-star spot and to capture more of Markkanen's departed 15ppg/6rpg.
* Allen, LeVert, and "ultimateknicks superstar" Okoro have regressed.

The Knicks added Brunson:
* Randle improved, regained all-NBA quality form and more.
* Mitch, Grimes, Quickley, McBride, Sims have all been more productive than last year. Quickley looks like a star in the making alongside Brunson.
* RJ was more efficient than last year, though his recent February slump and the recent addition of Hart have soured this a bit.
* Obi has regressed (in part because Randle's been great, addition of Hartenstein and emergence of Sims)
* Fournier & Rose lost their jobs.

If Mitchell joined the team, we'd have two 6'1" starting guards. I'm not sure who'd play guard/wing defense. We wouldn't have that feeling of upside with our young players (they'd be on Utah!). We wouldn't have that feeling of "geez, we have SOOO many upcoming draft picks". The cupboard would have been bare.

We're in a really good place. We have a nice core of Randle, Brunson, and Mitch, with a bunch of flexible pieces with upside. And tons of draft picks. I like RJ too, I like his upside and loyalty, but he can be moved because he already has two potential replacements already on the roster (Quickley and Grimes). Or his replacements can be moved for assets. We have Larry Bird rights for virtually everyone on the roster, so if we like our own FAs, we have the power to go over the cap to give 'em what they want, luxury tax be damned. Even if we just bring back the team as-is next season, we're really young so that it would be a reasonable expectation for nearly the entire roster to come back better players.

technomaster wrote:If we had acquired Mitchell by trade, it wouldn't have been all rainbows and butterflies.

The Cavs executed about as good a trade on paper as anyone could have hoped for.
* 4 returning starters - easy slot in for Mitchell
* the traded players were basically redundant pieces
* the first rounders that exchanged hands are a future problem

So the actual results:
* practically the same record as last year
* Garland's about the same, better FG%.
* Mobley has marginal improvements, better FG%, scoring up by 0.7ppg. The team probably expected him to challenge for an all-star spot and to capture more of Markkanen's departed 15ppg/6rpg.
* Allen, LeVert, and "ultimateknicks superstar" Okoro have regressed.

The Knicks added Brunson:
* Randle improved, regained all-NBA quality form and more.
* Mitch, Grimes, Quickley, McBride, Sims have all been more productive than last year. Quickley looks like a star in the making alongside Brunson.
* RJ was more efficient than last year, though his recent February slump and the recent addition of Hart have soured this a bit.
* Obi has regressed (in part because Randle's been great, addition of Hartenstein and emergence of Sims)
* Fournier & Rose lost their jobs.

If Mitchell joined the team, we'd have two 6'1" starting guards. I'm not sure who'd play guard/wing defense. We wouldn't have that feeling of upside with our young players (they'd be on Utah!). We wouldn't have that feeling of "geez, we have SOOO many upcoming draft picks". The cupboard would have been bare.

We're in a really good place. We have a nice core of Randle, Brunson, and Mitch, with a bunch of flexible pieces with upside. And tons of draft picks. I like RJ too, I like his upside and loyalty, but he can be moved because he already has two potential replacements already on the roster (Quickley and Grimes). Or his replacements can be moved for assets. We have Larry Bird rights for virtually everyone on the roster, so if we like our own FAs, we have the power to go over the cap to give 'em what they want, luxury tax be damned. Even if we just bring back the team as-is next season, we're really young so that it would be a reasonable expectation for nearly the entire roster to come back better players.

Ding!

Donavan Mitchell is probably the most talented basketball player on either team.

Doesn't seem he's the best member of a basketball team on either team.

There are aspects of being a member of a basketball team that isn't just about raw talent.

I think the Knicks may have gotten the better member of a basketball team in Brunson.

And yes, pairing them might create issues in which the whole is lesser than the sum of the parts.

Still, not knocking Mitchell. He's phenomenal. He's not an ideal fit next to the relatively weak defender of Garland. You really want him paired with an oversized PG... or maybe a Josh Hart-like SG.

But consider how we got Brunson. We basically "traded" something along the lines of Walker, Noel, Burks, 1st round pick (Duren), maybe a second rd or two to make cap room to sign Brunson. If you look at it as a trade, that's a really awesome deal.

We sweetened the pot by signing his (PR nightmare, masseuse enthusiast "Patrick Ewing") dad as an assistant coach. Fortunately, the NY media hasn't brought that up too much.

Donovan Mitchel is 6'1"
Jalen Bruson is 6'2"

That team would be killed on Defense night in and night out...
Those two players on are not meant to be in a starting line-up together.
Both are ball-dominant and are too short to compliment eachother.

We don’t know for sure how it may have gone down, but losing IQ, Grimes, and future picks (unprotected) is likely. For me IQ alone may be a better player for this team as someone else alluded to. Anyway, it has been the FO’s MO to not do it how we always did and I was and am grateful they didn’t go there.