Knicks · What is really wrong with RJ Barrett? Is there a deeper problem? (page 3)

Philc1 @ 4/5/2023 10:49 AM
Nalod wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:Some valid points Nalod.

Not too long ago E. Peyton started for our 4th seed squad but most of fan base knew we needed to fix that spot.

I hope I’m wrong on RJ - he’s a solid kid in my view. I sure as hell wasn’t right being on the Frank bandwagon.

We made the 4th seed that year because RJ and Randle were both lights out excellent during the entire regular season. Elf had as much to do with it as Dickie Simpkins did with the bulls winning their second threepeat

Dickie started 17 games in the Three peat era on one of the greatest teams in history Stacked with a Goat and 3 other HOF players.
Elf started 63 games in the 4 seed season. Nobody said he was the straw that stirred the drink. But he was in the glass.

This year RJ plays second most minutes and avg over 19 per game in his 4th season on a team that wildly succeeded beyond expectations as the third option. Weakest link? Not sure I’d go there but not a knick fan on the planet is blind to his issues, but also his strengths. I have confidence he will not be the reason we don’t win a chip. Next year,, if there is one for him as a knick he needs to reduce his turnovers just a bit, and get that outside shot back in the high 30% range.
Its easy to say we need a better player at that position but another to actually identify an exact player and guarantee that player will be a better fit. That player might be on another team doing “better”, but that don’t mean it happens as a knick.

What team is elf on now? Just wondering

Is on the same team as Zach Wilson. The one that occupies your mind and appears to be winning.

What’s a Zach Wilson?

Philc1 @ 4/5/2023 10:51 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:The idea that you should get back to the weight and body shape you had when you were 18 seems far fetched to me. Getting lighter, quicker, more flexible is another matter.

I did like him better at the 2. It’s a better matchup for him.

He had some of the same issues with shot selection and finishing at the rim that he struggles with now. I don't think it's physical. He needs the game to slow down some more. He needs to be more instinctual.

He isn't a good fit. Knicks would be better off with another Josh Hart. Guys that contribute without scoring. Grimes and Hart do that, RJ doesn't. Knicks need a 3 and D specialist that can guard Tatum, Giannis. OG is the perfect fit for this team.

RJ is averaging 19.5 ppg. He apparently has been doing some scoring. Grimes has been getting lots of open looks from 3 this year much of that is thanks to Julius and RJ

technomaster @ 4/5/2023 10:54 AM
RJ's per 36 numbers trending down is most concerning to me. Compared to his rookie season, his rebounding, assist, steal, and block numbers have dipped, as has his 3pt%. He's at a point of his career where the game should be slowing down and things like reading the floor, playmaking, defense should be trending up.

With that said, some notable young guards aren't good 3pt shooters (here are their 3pt%'s this season): Doncic (34.7), SGA (35), Tatum (35.2) Jaylen Brown (33.9), Morant (30.8), Trae Young (33.8), De'Aaron Fox (32.7), Jalen Green (33.7), Dejounte Murray (34.6)

martin @ 4/5/2023 10:57 AM
Philc1 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:Some valid points Nalod.

Not too long ago E. Peyton started for our 4th seed squad but most of fan base knew we needed to fix that spot.

I hope I’m wrong on RJ - he’s a solid kid in my view. I sure as hell wasn’t right being on the Frank bandwagon.

We made the 4th seed that year because RJ and Randle were both lights out excellent during the entire regular season. Elf had as much to do with it as Dickie Simpkins did with the bulls winning their second threepeat

Feel like Rose had an impact

gradyandrew @ 4/5/2023 11:05 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:The idea that you should get back to the weight and body shape you had when you were 18 seems far fetched to me. Getting lighter, quicker, more flexible is another matter.

I did like him better at the 2. It’s a better matchup for him.

He had some of the same issues with shot selection and finishing at the rim that he struggles with now. I don't think it's physical. He needs the game to slow down some more. He needs to be more instinctual.

He isn't a good fit. Knicks would be better off with another Josh Hart. Guys that contribute without scoring. Grimes and Hart do that, RJ doesn't. Knicks need a 3 and D specialist that can guard Tatum, Giannis. OG is the perfect fit for this team.


I think you ignore how limited OG is on offense. RJ has shown the ability to carry the first team and the bench on offense. OG...

Don’t just take my word for it; let’s dive into the data. He is shooting an atrocious 35-110 FG (31.8 percent) on pull-up jump shots. When breaking it down by distance, he’s shooting 6-26 3P (23.1 percent) and 29-84 2P (34.5 percent). When simplifying it to his output of 0.653 points per possession on dribble jumpers, there isn’t a less efficient player among the 103 with at least 100 attempts. Again, he’s not a legitimate shot-creation threat.

I think 22 year old RJ improving his defense has a much higher probability than 25 year old OG developing his offense.

martin @ 4/5/2023 11:21 AM
gradyandrew wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:The idea that you should get back to the weight and body shape you had when you were 18 seems far fetched to me. Getting lighter, quicker, more flexible is another matter.

I did like him better at the 2. It’s a better matchup for him.

He had some of the same issues with shot selection and finishing at the rim that he struggles with now. I don't think it's physical. He needs the game to slow down some more. He needs to be more instinctual.

He isn't a good fit. Knicks would be better off with another Josh Hart. Guys that contribute without scoring. Grimes and Hart do that, RJ doesn't. Knicks need a 3 and D specialist that can guard Tatum, Giannis. OG is the perfect fit for this team.


I think you ignore how limited OG is on offense. RJ has shown the ability to carry the first team and the bench on offense. OG...

Don’t just take my word for it; let’s dive into the data. He is shooting an atrocious 35-110 FG (31.8 percent) on pull-up jump shots. When breaking it down by distance, he’s shooting 6-26 3P (23.1 percent) and 29-84 2P (34.5 percent). When simplifying it to his output of 0.653 points per possession on dribble jumpers, there isn’t a less efficient player among the 103 with at least 100 attempts. Again, he’s not a legitimate shot-creation threat.

I think 22 year old RJ improving his defense has a much higher probability than 25 year old OG developing his offense.

For me though, that's not a stat I'd pay attention to quite frankly, or at least I wouldn't rely on it heavily. We are talking about 1 specific type of shot, for which he has only taken 110 times this season, so like 1 or 2 times a game across the season?

In a vacuum, let's compare 3 point shots for both players. OG shot it 355 times for the year at a clip of 39%, RJ shot 378 times at a clip of 32%. By that stat alone, how would you rate both players? Strangely and coincidentally, RJ is shooting the same 31.7% from 3's this year on triple the volume as OG is for the pull up stat you show above. The author above used the word "atrocious". Is RJ's 3point shooting atrocious?

For me, OG is a world class defender AND he can spread the floor. That would be his role. If he started, he could take on the best player who is either a SF or PF, and thus giving Randle the same option to be "hidden" ala Brunson via Grimes.

IMHO, RJ is never going to be an average defender (foot speed and BBIQ etc.), RJ is below average offensive player right now, the across the board eFG% emphasizes that (~48% for career). OG is (at worst) an average offensive player (~56% eFG% for career) with very solid spacing capabilities (~38% from 3 for last 4 years) and an elite defender already. OG is incredibly switchable on defense, guarding 1-4.

Nalod @ 4/5/2023 11:33 AM
technomaster wrote:RJ's per 36 numbers trending down is most concerning to me. Compared to his rookie season, his rebounding, assist, steal, and block numbers have dipped, as has his 3pt%. He's at a point of his career where the game should be slowing down and things like reading the floor, playmaking, defense should be trending up.

With that said, some notable young guards aren't good 3pt shooters (here are their 3pt%'s this season): Doncic (34.7), SGA (35), Tatum (35.2) Jaylen Brown (33.9), Morant (30.8), Trae Young (33.8), De'Aaron Fox (32.7), Jalen Green (33.7), Dejounte Murray (34.6)

“Torture the numbers enough they will confess to what you want them to”…………

Im not saying there is no reason to concern. Production is a stat. So is wins. RJ rookie year the team was awful.
The knicks team chemistry changes quite frequently. Two new starters this year and JB a very ball dominant player.
Production numbers should trend down as team improves.
I want whats best for the team. I trust the FO will do whats needed if it comes to it.

GustavBahler @ 4/5/2023 12:32 PM
I see improvement in RJ's game, footwork. Offensive repertoire. Decision making is RJ's biggest hurdle to overcome. Still makes some headscratching decisions on the court from time to time.

Barrett is still young, its something I believe will improve with time. The question is wether or not the FO wants to wait beyond this season. Or use RJ as part of a trade for a star? IDK. Unless we have a shot at a gamechanging superstar, I'd like to see RJ get another season, or at least part of next season, before the FO makes the call.

One more offseason for RJ to work on his game, and mindset. Barrett goes through stretches where he takes a lot of shots. Would like to see him go on runs where he makes a lot of solid passes. Racks up the assists, rebounds, then gets back to scoring. Havent seen enough of that this season IMO.

BigDaddyG @ 4/5/2023 1:31 PM
Rookie @ 4/5/2023 1:47 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:

“He’s so young’ is getting old. It’s weird when the media doesn’t trash us.

ESOMKnicks @ 4/5/2023 2:34 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
It took a minute to look up, but he's with the Fort Wayne Mad Ants after a brief stint in Puerto Rico. I'll be the first to admit that Elf is trash (in comparison to other NBAers). But it wasn't his fault that he started. He gave his all and even though it wasn't close to being good enough, I appreciate the effort. I hope Elf finds a role as 15th man somewhere.

The man has earned over $30 million over his career. He can retire happily and comfortably. What's the fun toiling for a G League team? Certainly cannot be the paycheck or the lifestyle.

Nalod @ 4/5/2023 11:24 PM
ESOMKnicks wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
It took a minute to look up, but he's with the Fort Wayne Mad Ants after a brief stint in Puerto Rico. I'll be the first to admit that Elf is trash (in comparison to other NBAers). But it wasn't his fault that he started. He gave his all and even though it wasn't close to being good enough, I appreciate the effort. I hope Elf finds a role as 15th man somewhere.

The man has earned over $30 million over his career. He can retire happily and comfortably. What's the fun toiling for a G League team? Certainly cannot be the paycheck or the lifestyle.

Relevancy for a man has no price.

Philc1 @ 4/6/2023 9:40 AM
ESOMKnicks wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
It took a minute to look up, but he's with the Fort Wayne Mad Ants after a brief stint in Puerto Rico. I'll be the first to admit that Elf is trash (in comparison to other NBAers). But it wasn't his fault that he started. He gave his all and even though it wasn't close to being good enough, I appreciate the effort. I hope Elf finds a role as 15th man somewhere.

The man has earned over $30 million over his career. He can retire happily and comfortably. What's the fun toiling for a G League team? Certainly cannot be the paycheck or the lifestyle.

$30 million? First off half of that goes to agent commissions and taxes. The rest will be gone about 5 years from now

Philc1 @ 4/6/2023 9:44 AM
GustavBahler wrote:I see improvement in RJ's game, footwork. Offensive repertoire. Decision making is RJ's biggest hurdle to overcome. Still makes some headscratching decisions on the court from time to time.

Barrett is still young, its something I believe will improve with time. The question is wether or not the FO wants to wait beyond this season. Or use RJ as part of a trade for a star? IDK. Unless we have a shot at a gamechanging superstar, I'd like to see RJ get another season, or at least part of next season, before the FO makes the call.

One more offseason for RJ to work on his game, and mindset. Barrett goes through stretches where he takes a lot of shots. Would like to see him go on runs where he makes a lot of solid passes. Racks up the assists, rebounds, then gets back to scoring. Havent seen enough of that this season IMO.

I think the issue is RJ coming out was hyped up by the media as having a higher ceiling than Tatum — until we got the 3rd seed. The media shifted its position on RJ but Knicks fans didn’t. He was supposed to be better than Tatum which would have made him all-nba. He’s good. He’s not great.


I’m probably older than most here. After 20 years of the Freddy Weis’s and Mike Sweetneys and Jordan Hills I will gladly take good.

Nalod @ 4/6/2023 11:07 AM
Philc1 wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
It took a minute to look up, but he's with the Fort Wayne Mad Ants after a brief stint in Puerto Rico. I'll be the first to admit that Elf is trash (in comparison to other NBAers). But it wasn't his fault that he started. He gave his all and even though it wasn't close to being good enough, I appreciate the effort. I hope Elf finds a role as 15th man somewhere.

The man has earned over $30 million over his career. He can retire happily and comfortably. What's the fun toiling for a G League team? Certainly cannot be the paycheck or the lifestyle.

$30 million? First off half of that goes to agent commissions and taxes. The rest will be gone about 5 years from now

Bit presumptive to call out Elf with no knowledge to his financial acumen or discipline just to continue your position.
Nobody was expecting much from him other than be a back up for us and play up to his modest contract. He did.
Maybe he just has pride and wants to stay in the league. What it to you? Oh, if he returns to the NBA he makes you look bad by your prognostications about him?
Don’t worry about that, you don’t need his help.

Alpha1971 @ 4/6/2023 12:26 PM
Too much oxtail and rice and beans.
martin @ 4/6/2023 12:49 PM
Alpha1971 wrote:Too much oxtail and rice and beans.

Is there ever enough though? I'm a jerk pork and chicken guy omg

TPercy @ 4/7/2023 6:07 PM
Rookie wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:

“He’s so young’ is getting old. It’s weird when the media doesn’t trash us.

It’s still true though. Yes, after 4 years you’d like to hold onto some consistent output but he’s still 2-3 years away from entering his prime years. Question is: do you count on him to significant adjustments to his game by then?

Philc1 @ 4/7/2023 7:26 PM
TPercy wrote:
Rookie wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:

“He’s so young’ is getting old. It’s weird when the media doesn’t trash us.

It’s still true though. Yes, after 4 years you’d like to hold onto some consistent output but he’s still 2-3 years away from entering his prime years. Question is: do you count on him to significant adjustments to his game by then?

Randle didn’t really blossom until he was 26

Alpha1971 @ 4/8/2023 6:17 AM
martin wrote:
Alpha1971 wrote:Too much oxtail and rice and beans.

Is there ever enough though? I'm a jerk pork and chicken guy omg

To Roti or not to Roti, that is the question ? I'm Jamaican and Puerto Rican so I like jerk pork with yellow rice and beans with pasteles during the holidays. I wonder if RJ is having double the Easter bun with cheese tonight. RJ only one serving

EwingsGlass @ 4/8/2023 6:27 AM
gradyandrew wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:The idea that you should get back to the weight and body shape you had when you were 18 seems far fetched to me. Getting lighter, quicker, more flexible is another matter.

I did like him better at the 2. It’s a better matchup for him.

He had some of the same issues with shot selection and finishing at the rim that he struggles with now. I don't think it's physical. He needs the game to slow down some more. He needs to be more instinctual.

He isn't a good fit. Knicks would be better off with another Josh Hart. Guys that contribute without scoring. Grimes and Hart do that, RJ doesn't. Knicks need a 3 and D specialist that can guard Tatum, Giannis. OG is the perfect fit for this team.


I think you ignore how limited OG is on offense. RJ has shown the ability to carry the first team and the bench on offense. OG...

Don’t just take my word for it; let’s dive into the data. He is shooting an atrocious 35-110 FG (31.8 percent) on pull-up jump shots. When breaking it down by distance, he’s shooting 6-26 3P (23.1 percent) and 29-84 2P (34.5 percent). When simplifying it to his output of 0.653 points per possession on dribble jumpers, there isn’t a less efficient player among the 103 with at least 100 attempts. Again, he’s not a legitimate shot-creation threat.

I think 22 year old RJ improving his defense has a much higher probability than 25 year old OG developing his offense.

Just to be clear, this presupposes that OG’s offense doesn’t already surpass RJ’s, right? RJ’s offense suffers from a lack of guilt. A lack of accountability. How do you go 0-9 from 3 and still take 9 3s. I’ve said this before. He isn’t a good enough 3 point shooter to go 0-9 from 3. Pass the ball.

OG doesn’t put up huge numbers, but it’s not his role. He just shoots 38% from three with a 55% eFG and leads the league in steals from a wing position. I mean, yeah, I would make that swap all day.

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