I think obi and grimes could have their roles expanded
Thibs boxes guys in I think
I’d like to see grimes especially play less rigid and less of a 3 and D role - more of a ball handler and driver - just all around offed game
Case, you are holding yourself back, cut back to a half case before you go on a thread posting sprint
Why would motivate Thibs to hold his players back?
Nalod wrote:Why would motivate Thibs to hold his players back?
Well if the Knicks had gotten 4 more wins this past season, it would have had them tied with the 5th best record in the league and by default Thibs would be on the “hot seat” to start the next season under the assumed presumption that he needs to duplicate or beat that result. And now he can sit back and cross the 50 win mark with ease and get that fat extension he has been shooting for since he signed.
But then he will really be held to the fire cause after you win 50 games that hot seat gets hotter, you need to win the title.
It makes total sense to hold guys back. Cause coaches don’t want to be on the hot seat.
Thibs is winning coach. Whatever he is doing is good for the Knicks, playoffs is the goal and he delivered that. If you want player development well that will have no place as it is about getting to the playoffs. In a perfect world Obi would have gotten a lot more time and development space. I look at Michael Porter playing at SF position and wondered why Obi can’t, the similarities between the two is there. Thibs has earned the opportunity to continue as long as the team is making the playoffs. Most Knicks fans are content after being so bad for so long with playoffs. This organization has never been about championships. It’s like getting Josh Hart and all of a sudden he has a bigger role than Obi. No wonder Obi lost it. Obi has given Thibs 40 point games, 18 in the playoffs only to get benched the next game or log very little court time the next game. We have to realize Thibs is not championship coach, he has a controlling mind set so there will never be a free flow on the offensive side. Defensively that requires a lot of control and barking instructions, Thibs is really good at that. That’s is Thibs calling card. Even if a player is giving 18-20 points if his defense is off he will quickly realize that aspect and totally neglect the offensive side. There is no balance between the two. Defense does keep you in games and that’s where the Knicks are.
Vmart wrote:Thibs is winning coach. Whatever he is doing is good for the Knicks, playoffs is the goal and he delivered that. If you want player development well that will have no place as it is about getting to the playoffs. In a perfect world Obi would have gotten a lot more time and development space. I look at Michael Porter playing at SF position and wondered why Obi can’t, the similarities between the two is there. Thibs has earned the opportunity to continue as long as the team is making the playoffs. Most Knicks fans are content after being so bad for so long with playoffs. This organization has never been about championships. It’s like getting Josh Hart and all of a sudden he has a bigger role than Obi. No wonder Obi lost it. Obi has given Thibs 40 point games, 18 in the playoffs only to get benched the next game or log very little court time the next game. We have to realize Thibs is not championship coach, he has a controlling mind set so there will never be a free flow on the offensive side. Defensively that requires a lot of control and barking instructions, Thibs is really good at that. That’s is Thibs calling card. Even if a player is giving 18-20 points if his defense is off he will quickly realize that aspect and totally neglect the offensive side. There is no balance between the two. Defense does keep you in games and that’s where the Knicks are.
You don’t get to a better record and playoffs without your players getting better and then team getting better.
To get better, you need to develop.
This ain’t rocket science.
What you do have is lots and lots fans who barely understand what actual develop looks like when it’s right in front of their faces.
But keep focusing on that one player who was National player of the year and then shat his pants once he first got onto an NBA court. Life is tough some times and some times you need to stand up and start to fight to get better. Nothing handed to you in this world unless you are very very lucky.
Thibs is only good at taking one of the youngest rotations in the league and over performing.
And yelling. Most coaches don’t yell. Especially if you don’t open your eyes and look, then it’s not there.
martin wrote:Thibs is only good at taking one of the youngest rotations in the league and over performing. And yelling. Most coaches don’t yell. Especially if you don’t open your eyes and look, then it’s not there.
Yeah man. I think Knicks are finally developing a culture as evidenced by RJ giving Clyde cupcakes on his birthday. Clyde let it drop that all the guys call him the OG. It's been a long, long time since this franchise has had some pride and you saw that in the playoffs when Jessica Alba showed up, in addition to the 90's Knicks. It says a lot that Fournier rode pine all year and was still cheering his teammates on come playoffs. I don't really know what the expectations could have been for last season if you felt let down.
gradyandrew wrote:martin wrote:Thibs is only good at taking one of the youngest rotations in the league and over performing. And yelling. Most coaches don’t yell. Especially if you don’t open your eyes and look, then it’s not there.
Yeah man. I think Knicks are finally developing a culture as evidenced by RJ giving Clyde cupcakes on his birthday. Clyde let it drop that all the guys call him the OG. It's been a long, long time since this franchise has had some pride and you saw that in the playoffs when Jessica Alba showed up, in addition to the 90's Knicks. It says a lot that Fournier rode pine all year and was still cheering his teammates on come playoffs. I don't really know what the expectations could have been for last season if you felt let down.
Obi did not bring A-list all time great Knick fans like Alba!!!!
Fact is obi should be frustrated but its a tough ass business!
Many players don’t love Thibs becuase he don’t play them but do the players that do play, they seem to really like him! Players don’t want to be in the dog house, they want to be in the residence!!!
ITs where you get paid.
If Obi can find a good trade, like to a team that will play him and return fair value perhaps knicks are amenable to that.
Props on the development of iq
Could get more from rj and obi and McBride
Could have gotten out of EF also - guy looks like Jordan when he plays for France
Familiar sentiment. Some believed Thibs held back Frank. Held back Cam. And every other fan dream that never accomplished much.
Fans think they know much more than a NBA COY coach. Or think he has ulterior motives for not playing guys.
My question would be, what other playoff team do guys see Obi starting or playing 25 plus minutes as a back up? What other playoff team do guys see Grimes playing more than 30 minutes on?
Coaches don't hold back players. Players hold themselves back by not executing what the coach wants.
Frank offense lacked. he got hurt when windows open.
Miss defensive assignments you give them the hook. If not, it makes the other players look bad.
Nalod wrote:Coaches don't hold back players. Players hold themselves back by not executing what the coach wants.
Frank offense lacked. he got hurt when windows open.
Miss defensive assignments you give them the hook. If not, it makes the other players look bad.
With all due respect, I call the highlighted bullshet, and let me explain.
Players can follow thibs strategy and still not meet thibs expectations.
Also you can’t give thibs credit for development but in the same breath remove him from any blame on non development. Who knows what type of player Obi would be after being in GS system for 4 yrs. Same with quick.
Coaches impact on a player is not binary. Blame can and should be spread all over from coach to player to the players momma to the media, throw in God if you like.
Now has thibs held back a players growth? Sure. Has every coach in the nba held back a player’s development before? Of course. But singling out one person is the blame for holding back a player is not a simple yes and no discussion. Either it’s a discussion that goes deeper than that or it’s not a discussion at all. Just a war on text attrition. See who can keep replying until someone stops, then that person can gloat all day about the other person. We’ve seen this already like a broken record.
Thibs definitely holds back players. But maybe those are the players NY doesn’t need. Time to draft some Randle tough nose types or RJ who never flinch or shows you when he’s on or off. Keeps the same face. We just need some talent to go along with finding thibs type players. That way there will be less players being held back by thibs and more players being developed.
So is it thibs holding them back or Leon populating the roster with non-thibs type players? Mmmm 🤔
Now who’s at fault thibs or Leon? Gotta love the blame game to keep the day moving until a trade happens or summer league begins.
Someone must always be blamed.
If a coach can develop one player, he must be held accountable to develop all players equally, otherwise blame much be given.
Every coach in the NBA must be blamed because there are players on the roster that are not developing. There is no one that escapes blame and this is essential in spreading the blame around.
Players also get blamed for not knowing how to develop themselves.
Finding and targeting blame is key to understanding the developmental blame process.
Maybe the truth is somewhere in between... I do think Thibs deserves a lot of credit for creating an identity, a defensive mindset/culture that our players did not have prior... He is loyal, consistent, maximizes effort and promotes hard work/grinding from his players, etc...
And I also think he is sometimes too rigid and overly loyal to specific players. Kind of a my way or the highway type of authority that sometimes doesn't take advantage of some player diversity we have/had had.
I do think he has developed IQ, Grimes and McBride very well. I don't think he puts Toppin in a position to succeed but also suspect that Toppin is not serious enough for Thibs style and respect needed (a personality and/or generational thing perhaps)? Similar with Cam and while it seems true Cam didn't have what it takes - we are again looking for a 6'8 long athletic wing. Makes me wonder what we will seek in a backup PF once Toppin is eventually moved...
I do think he could have tried to better utilize his strengths and showed a somewhat longer leash as that is part of developement. Thibs seems to give a long leash to Randle, RJ, etc... IMO your veteran players need a shorter leash b/c they have gone through what the younger players still need to work through when trying to bring them up to a higher level of dedication, skill development and mental toughness.
I'd give him an B+ with this roster but do wish that Thibs or Randle moves on at some point because that combination does not seem like a good one IMO.
I watch Spoelstra and see him as similar but with a more creative approach and flexibility to pivot as he coaches at times. I think Spol is the best coach in the league at the moment.
I was in the fire Thibs camp earlier in the season. Not now.
But, I do think Obi is not used properly. And 100%, I blame Obi for not doing more/better with his minutes.
And I would also like to see Thibs maybe have a shorter leash on RJ.
And I would like to see him try more small ball or go big with Obi at the SF and RJ at the SG.
But that is very mild criticism - Thibs has earned it based on this season.
My biggest concern with Thibs is he is 65, a bit portly - how much does he left in the tank of life for the grind that being an NBA coach must be?
Caseloads wrote:Props on the development of iqCould get more from rj and obi and McBride
Could have gotten out of EF also - guy looks like Jordan when he plays for France
no he got MOST out them they could. Next year will be more (if they all stay)
Im being silly... literally how are you quantifying that statement? You just watch and when Obi/RJ/McBide are clanging 3s and making low IQ moves you just know it's the coaching?
Its the starting to get good circle jerk...
1 We need a better coach our players suck
2 hey we winning. I like these players
3 why arent these players winning more
4 must be the coaching helping them back
5 we need a new coach
Caseloads wrote:I think obi and grimes could have their roles expanded Thibs boxes guys in I think
I’d like to see grimes especially play less rigid and less of a 3 and D role - more of a ball handler and driver - just all around offed game
There is only one ball. Between Brunson, Randle, RJ, IQ. Already have 4 guys who provide this. While of course you want complete all around players so it doesn't hurt for Grimes to round out his game to become a complete player. But as long as these are the pieces he plays with. Molding into 3&D is what's best for the team as we are lacking in that area to begin with.
Not that Thibs holds players back. Its that the roster isn't complimentary to each other. Same thing for Obi. Obi gets knocked for standing around the 3 pt line. But he does this because he is trying to fill in the 3 pt shooting gap we have due to the teammates he plays with. Mitch & Hartenstein aren't going to hit 15fters or threes. So its a lot harder for Obi to get those PNR looks over our centers. As their man can sag off them to cover the paint etc. Obi instead has to be the one to stretch the floor for them since he is more capable shooter out of them. But at the same time this won't maximize what Obi brings to the table offensively.
