interesting question---Im gonna lean on Jokic by a hair
As a HUGE Bird fan I think it’s Joker by a good margin.
I see nothing that tells me Joker wouldn’t have been just as dominant in 80s and he actually has a more diverse game vs Larry which is hard to say.
I used to play pick up with a guy that covers Nuggets on tv - at one time he said Luka was already better vs Bird and that was about 4 years ago —- and I scoffed.
But now - kind of think Luka is also better- especially if he was running with McKale, Parrish, D- Johnson and Ainge.
I think it’s just the passage of time and skills getting better and better so hard to compare generations
As a Knick fan going to the Garden in the 80s the Bird Man broke my heart and crushed my soul numerous times. Refs didn’t help but he was amazing and I would have loved to have had him as a Knick. Not saying he’s better, just that he was truly at the very tip top.
Bird was a better shooter, but other than that, I think Joker beats him in every other category.
The disrespect to L.Bird here is astonishing.
Swishfm3 wrote:The disrespect to L.Bird here is astonishing.
Not me….
No disrespect to Bird intended. Bird was a great player, but if you looked at just basketball stats, Jokic is up there with him on everything except shooting/scoring.
Bird Career G 897 PTS 24.3 TRB 10.0 AST 6.3 FG% 49.6 FG3% 37.6 FT% 88.6 eFG% 51.4 PER 23.5
Jokic Career G 596 PTS 20.2 TRB 10.5 AST 6.6 FG% 55.3 FG3% 34.8 FT% 82.9 eFG% 58.9 PER 27.7
2023 PTS 24.5 TRB 11.8 AST 9.8 FG% 63.2 FG3% 38.3 FT% 82.2 eFG% 66.0 PER 31.5
Jokic needs to win 2 more championships. There are stats- and then there is the eye test. I grew up on the north shore of LI - in the 80s I got, I think, Channel 20 which showed their games all the time, and as a basketball fan, I watched a lot of celts games, and rooted against them. And was miserable because the celts, with Bird, were winning 60 games.
At my age now, I see them with so much more respect. His Celtics team was stacked. I mean, McHale, Parish up front - Aigne - hated him - and Dennis Johnson with KC Jones as the coach - and then they had Walton for a time.
I think what he (Bird) did is better than what Jokic has accomplished so far. Couple more years, maybe we can talk.
I put Bird ahead, not because of a superior skillset. Because he was clutch from day one. No one was seriously questioning if Bird had what it took to be a champion. Until this past season, that was the question about Jokic.
Yes, Bird had better teammates, and he made their job a lot easier as well. Because he was so clutch.
Jokic took a lot longer to become the threat that Bird was as a rook. Its more than filling a stat sheet.
GustavBahler wrote:I put Bird ahead, not because of a superior skillset. Because he was clutch from day one. No one was seriously questioning if Bird had what it took to be a champion. Until this past season, that was the question about Jokic.Yes, Bird had better teammates, and he made their job a lot easier as well. Because he was so clutch.
Jokic took a lot longer to become the threat that Bird was as a rook. Its more than filling a stat sheet.
I have to agree. Jokic has to do more for me to put him ahead of Bird. It becomes a different conversation if Joker continues at this pace tho. Another question I'll pose. What more does Giannis has to do to break into the Duncan, Nowitzki and Garnett conversation? I suppose Barkley and Malone should also be in the conversation, but I think the lack of a title hurts them.
BigDaddyG wrote:GustavBahler wrote:I put Bird ahead, not because of a superior skillset. Because he was clutch from day one. No one was seriously questioning if Bird had what it took to be a champion. Until this past season, that was the question about Jokic.Yes, Bird had better teammates, and he made their job a lot easier as well. Because he was so clutch.
Jokic took a lot longer to become the threat that Bird was as a rook. Its more than filling a stat sheet.
I have to agree. Jokic has to do more for me to put him ahead of Bird. It becomes a different conversation if Joker continues at this pace tho. Another question I'll pose. What more does Giannis has to do to break into the Duncan, Nowitzki and Garnett conversation? I suppose Barkley and Malone should also be in the conversation, but I think the lack of a title hurts them.
Good points. Some younger fans forget that Magic and Bird made the NBA a global sport. David Stern's marketing skills as well.
They became two of the five best players in the league from opening day, rookie season. Lots of players put up big numbers, but most of them werent the closers that Bird and Magic were.
Not trying to diminish a first ballot HOFer. Jokic is headed for all time great status, but the body of work isnt comparable, and likely wont be. Because of the years it took to get on Bird's level.
People don't realize how incredible Bird was, not just as a player but his contribution to the whole team. People say Bird had great teammates , correct in his later years but in his rookie year Bird led a team which the year before finished 29-53 and basically with the same team they finished 61-21. NO Mchale, No Parrish etc. I was a student up in Boston at the time and besides Lew Alcindor I never saw 1 player change a team single-handily as much. Jokic always had great teammates so I can't say he would have done the same thing.
I’ve never seen Jokic bank a shot off the scoreboard.
White guy to white guy comp? One is a center, the other a SF! Why do we do this?
Larry Legend by a country mile
I did not see Bird in his prime but I've seen all those old Celtics/Lakers game and he was GREAT. Jokic is great too but he's got to get two more rings.
Which I think he will.
But comparing players from the 80s to today is so dumb imo. The game is completely different. Players today have better training, better coaching, individual coaching, diet, ect.
And Elgin Baylor was also great!
great question; great replies
tough call. Joker has one championship at this point but who knows
the thing about Bird (like Joker) is stats were not his thing; winning was. AND Larry has a knack for winning games. Super duper clutch. I saw a lot of Bird
So i have Larry (and Magic) ahead of Joker until he wins a second championship
I don't agree with the Luka comment above. He's great but not Bird/Magic-level and certainly not so until he gets team on biggest stage and still delivers
Nalod wrote:And Elgin Baylor was also great!
He was a bit past his prime when I began to pay attention, but Baylor is perhaps the most overlooked/underrated player of all time? Averaged about 27 points and 13 rebounds plus 4 assists a game including in the playoffs. Played defense too. Averaged almost 40 points a game a couple of times. Yes, no sense in comparison of yesterday and today’s players but Baylor was a dominant great.
SergioNYK wrote:I did not see Bird in his prime but I've seen all those old Celtics/Lakers game and he was GREAT. Jokic is great too but he's got to get two more rings. Which I think he will.
But comparing players from the 80s to today is so dumb imo. The game is completely different. Players today have better training, better coaching, individual coaching, diet, ect.
Youre right about eras/ The 80s MUCH more physical. Larry Bird was one of a kind a superstar but Jokic(2nd rd pick) is a quiet chubby serbian who has more skills than t any big man of all time. He avg a triple double and won a championship with other players who are not stars. Jokic is so good we just dont understand it because he plays like hes throwing knuckleballs.
