Knicks · EvanF (page 3)
martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:stillafan wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:Some deals work out some don't. Every move is a calculated risk. Rose made some bad choices but nothing catastrophic that has held the team back. Randal is all NBA, and Brunson is all NBA to come. A team with two NBA talents is something we couldn't envision a few years ago. Plus we did great with IQ and Grimes where they were picked. You win some and you lose some. Team this offseason didn't replicate that failed offseason by making too many moves overreacting to a play off loss. Team rolls into the season with a TPE,an expiring 18 million contract, a boatload of second rounders and first rounders, and players with large, medium, and small contracts to make smaller, medium, or a big trade. We are in good shapei'm going to disagree, not many GMS inherit a Randle, RJ, Mitch, Marcus Morris, Bullock Portis, a number 8 pick, all other picks, two dallas picks and turned into Kemba, Rose, Fournier, Noel, picked Obi over a PG.
And to recall things he attempted to trade Randle but teams wanted Leon to include a pick hence not trade, He just last deadline wanted to trade IQ for a protected or late first, again got lucky it didn't happen.
Jalen was imo complete luck, Dallas messed up big time when his dad actually pleaded for them to extend him for 12m, oops! I can on but I'm not a fan of this FO to date, they even messed up getting a player who wanted to be here in Donovan Mitchell, and by rumor all they had to do was take one protected pick say Bucks and turn it into a non protected pick, and right now those picks aren't far apart if projecting 2025.I think this FO failed there first go around because the players named well they either walked or we had to add to get rid of them to have cap for Brunny. Even if we want to give them credit for the Jalen signing and not trading Randle, well i'll go with what they do in next or in the near future will be how we judge them.
As far as IQ, great draft pick love the kid, lets see how we handle him since almost letting him go for a protected, but some could say hey Leon left Bane on the table,right?
Grimes is great, I see him as H2O but plays defense, but now we need to see how Thibs will utilize him with both Hart and DD here.There are FO advocates for the Knicks, nothing i've read all over so far has changed my mind, till further notice.
Fandom takes many forms. I will leave issues from several seasons ago in the past at this point.
i wish I could but most recently didn't we have to trade our #13 pick unload contracts to simply have the cap we had when they first got here? It's like inherenting money then it's spent poorly, then it's I'll leave the past behind?
In the NBA you imo can't do that because how you got to B, A had to happen, now we are up to C, and that is the test. If A and B didn't happen there would be no C?
I'm not young and I was taught a long time ago, the past is only good if you learn from, i'm still of the opinion till further notice. But i'm also ok that being lucky is good lol, we are now projected a playoff team, so all is not lost.
And if you can leave the past in the past, I think that's great, my mind just dont' function like that, I forgive but don't forget, it's the process of learning.
the other side is denial, well that is a completely different story lol, hopefully that dont' apply to our FO and we learned from the DM miss etc.
Knicks got Brunson and other first round picks for moving bench players and some trash players with some second round picks.
This would amount to a good thing.
I thought I said that, but we've discussed it soo much in the past, the short answer is absolutely, I've said over and over they made up for year one's blunders.
I don't think anyone would call giving up Burkes, #13 and 4 seconds to get three protected firsts back, one from the Bucks you know is almost a second and two others that have more probability of not conveying a good thing?
It was a move to counter the first year's complete blunder, 63m in cap how on earth is Kemba, Fourn, Noel, Rose considered positive signings. I think Detroit says thank you because they got both players they wanted in the draft since they had cap space to absorb 3 players.
?
Quite frankly that’s a fairly stupid way to look at that sequence of moves, especially when Brunson is involved in the outcome. You can’t just conveniently leave that part out.
Your frame is that a FO must make entirely perfect moves at every juncture or every other transaction after that is not a good one because of that. If that’s your perspective, it’s a myopic one IMHO
It's not what I'm saying and your missing what I'm saying so lets leave the stupid out ok?
We just don't agree, I've said year one failure, year two lets give the FO Credit because yes we got Brunny, we have Hart, I love DD, we didn't make any stupid trades like giving PG13 the 5 year max extension at his age and injuries he wanted and on top of that what the Clips wanted in return. I love PG13 but applaud the FO for not making this splash trade that would have been good for a year maybe two, but could get ugly down the line talking about that much money for that age and injury history.
To be clear it's the next move that will be this FO's determining point of just how good they are for us imo. Brunson is included in the outcome, you have to give credit where credit is do, don't mean we didn't get lucky.
I'm not being that guy, i'm just stating facts and my opinion on the FO, isn't that OK? I promise you I won't call your opinion or your view stupid, your entitled to your opinion.
And if we get lucky again count me in lol
martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:Some deals work out some don't. Every move is a calculated risk. Rose made some bad choices but nothing catastrophic that has held the team back. Randal is all NBA, and Brunson is all NBA to come. A team with two NBA talents is something we couldn't envision a few years ago. Plus we did great with IQ and Grimes where they were picked. You win some and you lose some. Team this offseason didn't replicate that failed offseason by making too many moves overreacting to a play off loss. Team rolls into the season with a TPE,an expiring 18 million contract, a boatload of second rounders and first rounders, and players with large, medium, and small contracts to make smaller, medium, or a big trade. We are in good shapei'm going to disagree, not many GMS inherit a Randle, RJ, Mitch, Marcus Morris, Bullock Portis, a number 8 pick, all other picks, two dallas picks and turned into Kemba, Rose, Fournier, Noel, picked Obi over a PG.
And to recall things he attempted to trade Randle but teams wanted Leon to include a pick hence not trade, He just last deadline wanted to trade IQ for a protected or late first, again got lucky it didn't happen.
Jalen was imo complete luck, Dallas messed up big time when his dad actually pleaded for them to extend him for 12m, oops! I can on but I'm not a fan of this FO to date, they even messed up getting a player who wanted to be here in Donovan Mitchell, and by rumor all they had to do was take one protected pick say Bucks and turn it into a non protected pick, and right now those picks aren't far apart if projecting 2025.I think this FO failed there first go around because the players named well they either walked or we had to add to get rid of them to have cap for Brunny. Even if we want to give them credit for the Jalen signing and not trading Randle, well i'll go with what they do in next or in the near future will be how we judge them.
As far as IQ, great draft pick love the kid, lets see how we handle him since almost letting him go for a protected, but some could say hey Leon left Bane on the table,right?
Grimes is great, I see him as H2O but plays defense, but now we need to see how Thibs will utilize him with both Hart and DD here.There are FO advocates for the Knicks, nothing i've read all over so far has changed my mind, till further notice.
Here is the TL;DR version: Leon inherited a 21 win team and in 2 of the 3 years the team far outperformed expectations. They have are poised to reach a 50 game season, have a rotation that is one of the youngest in the league, have signed one of the best UFA players in the last decade to one of the best vale contracts in the league (prob not a superstar but potentially really close to it), extended and sign many many core players to very team friendly contracts considering the new salary cap coming up (Randle, Jalen, RJ, Mitch), their core young players have developed very nicely (Mitch one of the best rebounders and interior defenders in league, IQ near 6MOY, Grimes one of the best POA defenders in league, Brunson put into position to shine, Randle put into position to redeem himself to 2 time all NBA), and have plenty of tradable assets to trade for a star over the next 2-3 years.
The rest of what you are saying is just a mishmash of what every other team goes through. Also, you don’t hold something against a team or player or person for something they don’t do, that is silliness.
I would love to give them credit for all the above but my last post explains why, and you can say silliness, I say could be very, very lucky. How many more what if's you want?
what if Lakers said okay we will take Randle for Westbrook straight up? How you feeling? What if Dallas wasn't dumb and Jalen didn't have all the ties to NY?
You can ask the other PSD members I've been on our FO to go after Jalen since the KP trade, I wanted the Knicks at the deadline two years back to trade an asset and give them their pick back to Jalen. I'm not tauting but this really happened and some how with Daddy Brunson begging Dallas to extend his son they still did not.
We got him, I'll give the FO credit for that for sure. But the DM thing? The Obi thing? I'm sorry but I have to take a step back be skeptical but how they will handle the next opportunity.
Now don't get me wrong, probably no happier Knick fan we have Brunny here and I also want IHart before he was even a FA, so happy there as well. I was a full advocate for Hart, and I was basically alone on a island protecting Mitch when he was drafted and his early days.
So again your take is good, right now today at this second, no I can't agree, but I will let them prove what they are with the next move(s).
My final take on Jalen? A 15 year old could have traded our pick and paid Jalen more than Dallas could even touch being in the lux tax. Kind of Bold but that's my take, hope they prove me completely wrong.
Good teams call around the league to assess the trade value of their players all the time, even if they have no intention of trading that player. You do it in the years before you need to extend that player or possibly make future trades, this is actually a very good thing, not something else that you are misinterpreting.
Knick FO (or any FO really) make enough actual moves that are poor that you can actually speak to.
Holding a FO to account for stuff they don’t do is not luck, that’s just something you made up and has zero meaning. Beat writes and other national guys talk about this all the time and all you are doing is repeating it back as a FO having luck not doing something; it’s a bad argument.
I don't use others for my opinions tbh, just saying. So I am calling as it happened and are facts. If a FO wants to do something and the other teams don't comply, then weren't they lucky? It happens but not to this fequency and with your key players you want to give the FO credit for?
Not sure how facts are a bad argument? let me be clear, my grade on the FO is incomplete, it was one year horrible, the next lets give them high grades no matter what you want to call it. So that leaves us in the middle, so to repeat their next moves for me any way will be my assessment of them.
You want to call that a bad argument I call it an opinion, right? You may not agree with me, but if any of my statements are wrong i'm always open to being corrected. And from where we sit Randle was a gonner not once but twice and IQ would have been a gonner at the break.
I used to have these discussions about Frank and Knick fans had his value high, and the rumor came out Knicks wanted and early 2nd or better and didn't get it, so what happened we got nothing for him. If Frank turned out good do we give the FO credit?
I just gave you a completely reasonable take on why a team would call around the league to assess the vale of a player that is on their roster - something that has been repeated by many many people around the league - and you completely ignored it and went on to call it luck.
At a base level, it’s just called doing your job.
After that… 🤷♂️
I'm lost by this honestly? Randle wasn't on the trade seat not once but twice and teams wanted assets to take him?
IQ was on the trade seat?
And if teams constantly get the value of players I guess Dallas didn't get the memo on what the Knicks would offer him?
Do you agree that the next move is a big thing for this FO? Or are you satisfied with them at this point and they are good to go? Just curious.
Not sure what you want me to say, I love Leon? Not yet, is that okay?
stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:Some deals work out some don't. Every move is a calculated risk. Rose made some bad choices but nothing catastrophic that has held the team back. Randal is all NBA, and Brunson is all NBA to come. A team with two NBA talents is something we couldn't envision a few years ago. Plus we did great with IQ and Grimes where they were picked. You win some and you lose some. Team this offseason didn't replicate that failed offseason by making too many moves overreacting to a play off loss. Team rolls into the season with a TPE,an expiring 18 million contract, a boatload of second rounders and first rounders, and players with large, medium, and small contracts to make smaller, medium, or a big trade. We are in good shapei'm going to disagree, not many GMS inherit a Randle, RJ, Mitch, Marcus Morris, Bullock Portis, a number 8 pick, all other picks, two dallas picks and turned into Kemba, Rose, Fournier, Noel, picked Obi over a PG.
And to recall things he attempted to trade Randle but teams wanted Leon to include a pick hence not trade, He just last deadline wanted to trade IQ for a protected or late first, again got lucky it didn't happen.
Jalen was imo complete luck, Dallas messed up big time when his dad actually pleaded for them to extend him for 12m, oops! I can on but I'm not a fan of this FO to date, they even messed up getting a player who wanted to be here in Donovan Mitchell, and by rumor all they had to do was take one protected pick say Bucks and turn it into a non protected pick, and right now those picks aren't far apart if projecting 2025.I think this FO failed there first go around because the players named well they either walked or we had to add to get rid of them to have cap for Brunny. Even if we want to give them credit for the Jalen signing and not trading Randle, well i'll go with what they do in next or in the near future will be how we judge them.
As far as IQ, great draft pick love the kid, lets see how we handle him since almost letting him go for a protected, but some could say hey Leon left Bane on the table,right?
Grimes is great, I see him as H2O but plays defense, but now we need to see how Thibs will utilize him with both Hart and DD here.There are FO advocates for the Knicks, nothing i've read all over so far has changed my mind, till further notice.
Here is the TL;DR version: Leon inherited a 21 win team and in 2 of the 3 years the team far outperformed expectations. They have are poised to reach a 50 game season, have a rotation that is one of the youngest in the league, have signed one of the best UFA players in the last decade to one of the best vale contracts in the league (prob not a superstar but potentially really close to it), extended and sign many many core players to very team friendly contracts considering the new salary cap coming up (Randle, Jalen, RJ, Mitch), their core young players have developed very nicely (Mitch one of the best rebounders and interior defenders in league, IQ near 6MOY, Grimes one of the best POA defenders in league, Brunson put into position to shine, Randle put into position to redeem himself to 2 time all NBA), and have plenty of tradable assets to trade for a star over the next 2-3 years.
The rest of what you are saying is just a mishmash of what every other team goes through. Also, you don’t hold something against a team or player or person for something they don’t do, that is silliness.
I would love to give them credit for all the above but my last post explains why, and you can say silliness, I say could be very, very lucky. How many more what if's you want?
what if Lakers said okay we will take Randle for Westbrook straight up? How you feeling? What if Dallas wasn't dumb and Jalen didn't have all the ties to NY?
You can ask the other PSD members I've been on our FO to go after Jalen since the KP trade, I wanted the Knicks at the deadline two years back to trade an asset and give them their pick back to Jalen. I'm not tauting but this really happened and some how with Daddy Brunson begging Dallas to extend his son they still did not.
We got him, I'll give the FO credit for that for sure. But the DM thing? The Obi thing? I'm sorry but I have to take a step back be skeptical but how they will handle the next opportunity.
Now don't get me wrong, probably no happier Knick fan we have Brunny here and I also want IHart before he was even a FA, so happy there as well. I was a full advocate for Hart, and I was basically alone on a island protecting Mitch when he was drafted and his early days.
So again your take is good, right now today at this second, no I can't agree, but I will let them prove what they are with the next move(s).
My final take on Jalen? A 15 year old could have traded our pick and paid Jalen more than Dallas could even touch being in the lux tax. Kind of Bold but that's my take, hope they prove me completely wrong.
Good teams call around the league to assess the trade value of their players all the time, even if they have no intention of trading that player. You do it in the years before you need to extend that player or possibly make future trades, this is actually a very good thing, not something else that you are misinterpreting.
Knick FO (or any FO really) make enough actual moves that are poor that you can actually speak to.
Holding a FO to account for stuff they don’t do is not luck, that’s just something you made up and has zero meaning. Beat writes and other national guys talk about this all the time and all you are doing is repeating it back as a FO having luck not doing something; it’s a bad argument.
I don't use others for my opinions tbh, just saying. So I am calling as it happened and are facts. If a FO wants to do something and the other teams don't comply, then weren't they lucky? It happens but not to this fequency and with your key players you want to give the FO credit for?
Not sure how facts are a bad argument? let me be clear, my grade on the FO is incomplete, it was one year horrible, the next lets give them high grades no matter what you want to call it. So that leaves us in the middle, so to repeat their next moves for me any way will be my assessment of them.
You want to call that a bad argument I call it an opinion, right? You may not agree with me, but if any of my statements are wrong i'm always open to being corrected. And from where we sit Randle was a gonner not once but twice and IQ would have been a gonner at the break.
I used to have these discussions about Frank and Knick fans had his value high, and the rumor came out Knicks wanted and early 2nd or better and didn't get it, so what happened we got nothing for him. If Frank turned out good do we give the FO credit?
I just gave you a completely reasonable take on why a team would call around the league to assess the vale of a player that is on their roster - something that has been repeated by many many people around the league - and you completely ignored it and went on to call it luck.
At a base level, it’s just called doing your job.
After that… 🤷♂️
I'm lost by this honestly? Randle wasn't on the trade seat not once but twice and teams wanted assets to take him?
IQ was on the trade seat?
And if teams constantly get the value of players I guess Dallas didn't get the memo on what the Knicks would offer him?
Do you agree that the next move is a big thing for this FO? Or are you satisfied with them at this point and they are good to go? Just curious.
Not sure what you want me to say, I love Leon? Not yet, is that okay?
I think you are stuck on the fact that if you read about a player being discussed, that always means a FO wants to trade that player, and if something doesn’t actually happen, it’s means they got lucky. I don’t think that holds to reality.
martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:Some deals work out some don't. Every move is a calculated risk. Rose made some bad choices but nothing catastrophic that has held the team back. Randal is all NBA, and Brunson is all NBA to come. A team with two NBA talents is something we couldn't envision a few years ago. Plus we did great with IQ and Grimes where they were picked. You win some and you lose some. Team this offseason didn't replicate that failed offseason by making too many moves overreacting to a play off loss. Team rolls into the season with a TPE,an expiring 18 million contract, a boatload of second rounders and first rounders, and players with large, medium, and small contracts to make smaller, medium, or a big trade. We are in good shapei'm going to disagree, not many GMS inherit a Randle, RJ, Mitch, Marcus Morris, Bullock Portis, a number 8 pick, all other picks, two dallas picks and turned into Kemba, Rose, Fournier, Noel, picked Obi over a PG.
And to recall things he attempted to trade Randle but teams wanted Leon to include a pick hence not trade, He just last deadline wanted to trade IQ for a protected or late first, again got lucky it didn't happen.
Jalen was imo complete luck, Dallas messed up big time when his dad actually pleaded for them to extend him for 12m, oops! I can on but I'm not a fan of this FO to date, they even messed up getting a player who wanted to be here in Donovan Mitchell, and by rumor all they had to do was take one protected pick say Bucks and turn it into a non protected pick, and right now those picks aren't far apart if projecting 2025.I think this FO failed there first go around because the players named well they either walked or we had to add to get rid of them to have cap for Brunny. Even if we want to give them credit for the Jalen signing and not trading Randle, well i'll go with what they do in next or in the near future will be how we judge them.
As far as IQ, great draft pick love the kid, lets see how we handle him since almost letting him go for a protected, but some could say hey Leon left Bane on the table,right?
Grimes is great, I see him as H2O but plays defense, but now we need to see how Thibs will utilize him with both Hart and DD here.There are FO advocates for the Knicks, nothing i've read all over so far has changed my mind, till further notice.
Here is the TL;DR version: Leon inherited a 21 win team and in 2 of the 3 years the team far outperformed expectations. They have are poised to reach a 50 game season, have a rotation that is one of the youngest in the league, have signed one of the best UFA players in the last decade to one of the best vale contracts in the league (prob not a superstar but potentially really close to it), extended and sign many many core players to very team friendly contracts considering the new salary cap coming up (Randle, Jalen, RJ, Mitch), their core young players have developed very nicely (Mitch one of the best rebounders and interior defenders in league, IQ near 6MOY, Grimes one of the best POA defenders in league, Brunson put into position to shine, Randle put into position to redeem himself to 2 time all NBA), and have plenty of tradable assets to trade for a star over the next 2-3 years.
The rest of what you are saying is just a mishmash of what every other team goes through. Also, you don’t hold something against a team or player or person for something they don’t do, that is silliness.
I would love to give them credit for all the above but my last post explains why, and you can say silliness, I say could be very, very lucky. How many more what if's you want?
what if Lakers said okay we will take Randle for Westbrook straight up? How you feeling? What if Dallas wasn't dumb and Jalen didn't have all the ties to NY?
You can ask the other PSD members I've been on our FO to go after Jalen since the KP trade, I wanted the Knicks at the deadline two years back to trade an asset and give them their pick back to Jalen. I'm not tauting but this really happened and some how with Daddy Brunson begging Dallas to extend his son they still did not.
We got him, I'll give the FO credit for that for sure. But the DM thing? The Obi thing? I'm sorry but I have to take a step back be skeptical but how they will handle the next opportunity.
Now don't get me wrong, probably no happier Knick fan we have Brunny here and I also want IHart before he was even a FA, so happy there as well. I was a full advocate for Hart, and I was basically alone on a island protecting Mitch when he was drafted and his early days.
So again your take is good, right now today at this second, no I can't agree, but I will let them prove what they are with the next move(s).
My final take on Jalen? A 15 year old could have traded our pick and paid Jalen more than Dallas could even touch being in the lux tax. Kind of Bold but that's my take, hope they prove me completely wrong.
Good teams call around the league to assess the trade value of their players all the time, even if they have no intention of trading that player. You do it in the years before you need to extend that player or possibly make future trades, this is actually a very good thing, not something else that you are misinterpreting.
Knick FO (or any FO really) make enough actual moves that are poor that you can actually speak to.
Holding a FO to account for stuff they don’t do is not luck, that’s just something you made up and has zero meaning. Beat writes and other national guys talk about this all the time and all you are doing is repeating it back as a FO having luck not doing something; it’s a bad argument.
I don't use others for my opinions tbh, just saying. So I am calling as it happened and are facts. If a FO wants to do something and the other teams don't comply, then weren't they lucky? It happens but not to this fequency and with your key players you want to give the FO credit for?
Not sure how facts are a bad argument? let me be clear, my grade on the FO is incomplete, it was one year horrible, the next lets give them high grades no matter what you want to call it. So that leaves us in the middle, so to repeat their next moves for me any way will be my assessment of them.
You want to call that a bad argument I call it an opinion, right? You may not agree with me, but if any of my statements are wrong i'm always open to being corrected. And from where we sit Randle was a gonner not once but twice and IQ would have been a gonner at the break.
I used to have these discussions about Frank and Knick fans had his value high, and the rumor came out Knicks wanted and early 2nd or better and didn't get it, so what happened we got nothing for him. If Frank turned out good do we give the FO credit?
I just gave you a completely reasonable take on why a team would call around the league to assess the vale of a player that is on their roster - something that has been repeated by many many people around the league - and you completely ignored it and went on to call it luck.
At a base level, it’s just called doing your job.
After that… 🤷♂️
I'm lost by this honestly? Randle wasn't on the trade seat not once but twice and teams wanted assets to take him?
IQ was on the trade seat?
And if teams constantly get the value of players I guess Dallas didn't get the memo on what the Knicks would offer him?
Do you agree that the next move is a big thing for this FO? Or are you satisfied with them at this point and they are good to go? Just curious.
Not sure what you want me to say, I love Leon? Not yet, is that okay?
I think you are stuck on the fact that if you read about a player being discussed, that always means a FO wants to trade that player, and if something doesn’t actually happen, it’s means they got lucky. I don’t think that holds to reality.
ok that is a fair assessment, thanks
Burks
Noel
5 Seconds (don’t forget to include the tampering 2nd!)
#13
Kemba
Brunson
IHart
Milwaukee 2025 Top 4 protected
Detroit Protected 1st (reverts to 2 seconds at worst)
Washington Protected 1st (reverts to 2 seconds at worst)
I think the key points are that the Kemba trade portion enabled the Knicks to potentially bid up for Brunson if they didn’t know where the salary negotiation would end, and had enough space to sign iHart when they got a positive contract structure.
The 4 seconds are basically a free option on the 4 they gave up with the possibility that they convey as firsts instead.
Burks is the only one of the 3 players we moved that had positive contract value. The other two were cost negative.
When you really delve into this, the Knicks manufactured the cap space to sign Brunson and Hart without giving up much and might end up with a windfall gain. If you ask me, they already won this trade as the Brunson move has already earned out. And the addition of Hart and DDV to the Brunson core is just added bonus.
But that offseason should go down as instrumental in the Knicks franchise history. It was a coup.
stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:Some deals work out some don't. Every move is a calculated risk. Rose made some bad choices but nothing catastrophic that has held the team back. Randal is all NBA, and Brunson is all NBA to come. A team with two NBA talents is something we couldn't envision a few years ago. Plus we did great with IQ and Grimes where they were picked. You win some and you lose some. Team this offseason didn't replicate that failed offseason by making too many moves overreacting to a play off loss. Team rolls into the season with a TPE,an expiring 18 million contract, a boatload of second rounders and first rounders, and players with large, medium, and small contracts to make smaller, medium, or a big trade. We are in good shapei'm going to disagree, not many GMS inherit a Randle, RJ, Mitch, Marcus Morris, Bullock Portis, a number 8 pick, all other picks, two dallas picks and turned into Kemba, Rose, Fournier, Noel, picked Obi over a PG.
And to recall things he attempted to trade Randle but teams wanted Leon to include a pick hence not trade, He just last deadline wanted to trade IQ for a protected or late first, again got lucky it didn't happen.
Jalen was imo complete luck, Dallas messed up big time when his dad actually pleaded for them to extend him for 12m, oops! I can on but I'm not a fan of this FO to date, they even messed up getting a player who wanted to be here in Donovan Mitchell, and by rumor all they had to do was take one protected pick say Bucks and turn it into a non protected pick, and right now those picks aren't far apart if projecting 2025.I think this FO failed there first go around because the players named well they either walked or we had to add to get rid of them to have cap for Brunny. Even if we want to give them credit for the Jalen signing and not trading Randle, well i'll go with what they do in next or in the near future will be how we judge them.
As far as IQ, great draft pick love the kid, lets see how we handle him since almost letting him go for a protected, but some could say hey Leon left Bane on the table,right?
Grimes is great, I see him as H2O but plays defense, but now we need to see how Thibs will utilize him with both Hart and DD here.There are FO advocates for the Knicks, nothing i've read all over so far has changed my mind, till further notice.
Here is the TL;DR version: Leon inherited a 21 win team and in 2 of the 3 years the team far outperformed expectations. They have are poised to reach a 50 game season, have a rotation that is one of the youngest in the league, have signed one of the best UFA players in the last decade to one of the best vale contracts in the league (prob not a superstar but potentially really close to it), extended and sign many many core players to very team friendly contracts considering the new salary cap coming up (Randle, Jalen, RJ, Mitch), their core young players have developed very nicely (Mitch one of the best rebounders and interior defenders in league, IQ near 6MOY, Grimes one of the best POA defenders in league, Brunson put into position to shine, Randle put into position to redeem himself to 2 time all NBA), and have plenty of tradable assets to trade for a star over the next 2-3 years.
The rest of what you are saying is just a mishmash of what every other team goes through. Also, you don’t hold something against a team or player or person for something they don’t do, that is silliness.
I would love to give them credit for all the above but my last post explains why, and you can say silliness, I say could be very, very lucky. How many more what if's you want?
what if Lakers said okay we will take Randle for Westbrook straight up? How you feeling? What if Dallas wasn't dumb and Jalen didn't have all the ties to NY?
You can ask the other PSD members I've been on our FO to go after Jalen since the KP trade, I wanted the Knicks at the deadline two years back to trade an asset and give them their pick back to Jalen. I'm not tauting but this really happened and some how with Daddy Brunson begging Dallas to extend his son they still did not.
We got him, I'll give the FO credit for that for sure. But the DM thing? The Obi thing? I'm sorry but I have to take a step back be skeptical but how they will handle the next opportunity.
Now don't get me wrong, probably no happier Knick fan we have Brunny here and I also want IHart before he was even a FA, so happy there as well. I was a full advocate for Hart, and I was basically alone on a island protecting Mitch when he was drafted and his early days.
So again your take is good, right now today at this second, no I can't agree, but I will let them prove what they are with the next move(s).
My final take on Jalen? A 15 year old could have traded our pick and paid Jalen more than Dallas could even touch being in the lux tax. Kind of Bold but that's my take, hope they prove me completely wrong.
Good teams call around the league to assess the trade value of their players all the time, even if they have no intention of trading that player. You do it in the years before you need to extend that player or possibly make future trades, this is actually a very good thing, not something else that you are misinterpreting.
Knick FO (or any FO really) make enough actual moves that are poor that you can actually speak to.
Holding a FO to account for stuff they don’t do is not luck, that’s just something you made up and has zero meaning. Beat writes and other national guys talk about this all the time and all you are doing is repeating it back as a FO having luck not doing something; it’s a bad argument.
I don't use others for my opinions tbh, just saying. So I am calling as it happened and are facts. If a FO wants to do something and the other teams don't comply, then weren't they lucky? It happens but not to this fequency and with your key players you want to give the FO credit for?
Not sure how facts are a bad argument? let me be clear, my grade on the FO is incomplete, it was one year horrible, the next lets give them high grades no matter what you want to call it. So that leaves us in the middle, so to repeat their next moves for me any way will be my assessment of them.
You want to call that a bad argument I call it an opinion, right? You may not agree with me, but if any of my statements are wrong i'm always open to being corrected. And from where we sit Randle was a gonner not once but twice and IQ would have been a gonner at the break.
I used to have these discussions about Frank and Knick fans had his value high, and the rumor came out Knicks wanted and early 2nd or better and didn't get it, so what happened we got nothing for him. If Frank turned out good do we give the FO credit?
I just gave you a completely reasonable take on why a team would call around the league to assess the vale of a player that is on their roster - something that has been repeated by many many people around the league - and you completely ignored it and went on to call it luck.
At a base level, it’s just called doing your job.
After that… 🤷♂️
I'm lost by this honestly? Randle wasn't on the trade seat not once but twice and teams wanted assets to take him?
IQ was on the trade seat?
And if teams constantly get the value of players I guess Dallas didn't get the memo on what the Knicks would offer him?
Do you agree that the next move is a big thing for this FO? Or are you satisfied with them at this point and they are good to go? Just curious.
Not sure what you want me to say, I love Leon? Not yet, is that okay?
While I can appreciate your list of picks that were not necessarily optimally used (to be gentle), I don’t agree with your assessment of Randle being on the trade block. I don’t think that’s true. I think fans wanted him gone. I don’t recall an actual time when there was a solid rumor of FO shopping him. Can you give a concrete example? A link?
Alpha1971 wrote:If Evan F has a great FIBA tournament soon, does he raise his value ?
Fournier has great FIVB tourney every year.
Alpha1971 wrote:If Evan F has a great FIBA tournament soon, does he raise his value ?
His weakness is NBA level defense. That won’t get exposed in FIBA. In fact, he should excel there.
EwingsGlass wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:If Evan F has a great FIBA tournament soon, does he raise his value ?His weakness is NBA level defense. That won’t get exposed in FIBA. In fact, he should excel there.
Hey every little bit can only help right 🤞🤞🤞🤞
Panos wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:Some deals work out some don't. Every move is a calculated risk. Rose made some bad choices but nothing catastrophic that has held the team back. Randal is all NBA, and Brunson is all NBA to come. A team with two NBA talents is something we couldn't envision a few years ago. Plus we did great with IQ and Grimes where they were picked. You win some and you lose some. Team this offseason didn't replicate that failed offseason by making too many moves overreacting to a play off loss. Team rolls into the season with a TPE,an expiring 18 million contract, a boatload of second rounders and first rounders, and players with large, medium, and small contracts to make smaller, medium, or a big trade. We are in good shapei'm going to disagree, not many GMS inherit a Randle, RJ, Mitch, Marcus Morris, Bullock Portis, a number 8 pick, all other picks, two dallas picks and turned into Kemba, Rose, Fournier, Noel, picked Obi over a PG.
And to recall things he attempted to trade Randle but teams wanted Leon to include a pick hence not trade, He just last deadline wanted to trade IQ for a protected or late first, again got lucky it didn't happen.
Jalen was imo complete luck, Dallas messed up big time when his dad actually pleaded for them to extend him for 12m, oops! I can on but I'm not a fan of this FO to date, they even messed up getting a player who wanted to be here in Donovan Mitchell, and by rumor all they had to do was take one protected pick say Bucks and turn it into a non protected pick, and right now those picks aren't far apart if projecting 2025.I think this FO failed there first go around because the players named well they either walked or we had to add to get rid of them to have cap for Brunny. Even if we want to give them credit for the Jalen signing and not trading Randle, well i'll go with what they do in next or in the near future will be how we judge them.
As far as IQ, great draft pick love the kid, lets see how we handle him since almost letting him go for a protected, but some could say hey Leon left Bane on the table,right?
Grimes is great, I see him as H2O but plays defense, but now we need to see how Thibs will utilize him with both Hart and DD here.There are FO advocates for the Knicks, nothing i've read all over so far has changed my mind, till further notice.
Here is the TL;DR version: Leon inherited a 21 win team and in 2 of the 3 years the team far outperformed expectations. They have are poised to reach a 50 game season, have a rotation that is one of the youngest in the league, have signed one of the best UFA players in the last decade to one of the best vale contracts in the league (prob not a superstar but potentially really close to it), extended and sign many many core players to very team friendly contracts considering the new salary cap coming up (Randle, Jalen, RJ, Mitch), their core young players have developed very nicely (Mitch one of the best rebounders and interior defenders in league, IQ near 6MOY, Grimes one of the best POA defenders in league, Brunson put into position to shine, Randle put into position to redeem himself to 2 time all NBA), and have plenty of tradable assets to trade for a star over the next 2-3 years.
The rest of what you are saying is just a mishmash of what every other team goes through. Also, you don’t hold something against a team or player or person for something they don’t do, that is silliness.
I would love to give them credit for all the above but my last post explains why, and you can say silliness, I say could be very, very lucky. How many more what if's you want?
what if Lakers said okay we will take Randle for Westbrook straight up? How you feeling? What if Dallas wasn't dumb and Jalen didn't have all the ties to NY?
You can ask the other PSD members I've been on our FO to go after Jalen since the KP trade, I wanted the Knicks at the deadline two years back to trade an asset and give them their pick back to Jalen. I'm not tauting but this really happened and some how with Daddy Brunson begging Dallas to extend his son they still did not.
We got him, I'll give the FO credit for that for sure. But the DM thing? The Obi thing? I'm sorry but I have to take a step back be skeptical but how they will handle the next opportunity.
Now don't get me wrong, probably no happier Knick fan we have Brunny here and I also want IHart before he was even a FA, so happy there as well. I was a full advocate for Hart, and I was basically alone on a island protecting Mitch when he was drafted and his early days.
So again your take is good, right now today at this second, no I can't agree, but I will let them prove what they are with the next move(s).
My final take on Jalen? A 15 year old could have traded our pick and paid Jalen more than Dallas could even touch being in the lux tax. Kind of Bold but that's my take, hope they prove me completely wrong.
Good teams call around the league to assess the trade value of their players all the time, even if they have no intention of trading that player. You do it in the years before you need to extend that player or possibly make future trades, this is actually a very good thing, not something else that you are misinterpreting.
Knick FO (or any FO really) make enough actual moves that are poor that you can actually speak to.
Holding a FO to account for stuff they don’t do is not luck, that’s just something you made up and has zero meaning. Beat writes and other national guys talk about this all the time and all you are doing is repeating it back as a FO having luck not doing something; it’s a bad argument.
I don't use others for my opinions tbh, just saying. So I am calling as it happened and are facts. If a FO wants to do something and the other teams don't comply, then weren't they lucky? It happens but not to this fequency and with your key players you want to give the FO credit for?
Not sure how facts are a bad argument? let me be clear, my grade on the FO is incomplete, it was one year horrible, the next lets give them high grades no matter what you want to call it. So that leaves us in the middle, so to repeat their next moves for me any way will be my assessment of them.
You want to call that a bad argument I call it an opinion, right? You may not agree with me, but if any of my statements are wrong i'm always open to being corrected. And from where we sit Randle was a gonner not once but twice and IQ would have been a gonner at the break.
I used to have these discussions about Frank and Knick fans had his value high, and the rumor came out Knicks wanted and early 2nd or better and didn't get it, so what happened we got nothing for him. If Frank turned out good do we give the FO credit?
I just gave you a completely reasonable take on why a team would call around the league to assess the vale of a player that is on their roster - something that has been repeated by many many people around the league - and you completely ignored it and went on to call it luck.
At a base level, it’s just called doing your job.
After that… 🤷♂️
I'm lost by this honestly? Randle wasn't on the trade seat not once but twice and teams wanted assets to take him?
IQ was on the trade seat?
And if teams constantly get the value of players I guess Dallas didn't get the memo on what the Knicks would offer him?
Do you agree that the next move is a big thing for this FO? Or are you satisfied with them at this point and they are good to go? Just curious.
Not sure what you want me to say, I love Leon? Not yet, is that okay?
While I can appreciate your list of picks that were not necessarily optimally used (to be gentle), I don’t agree with your assessment of Randle being on the trade block. I don’t think that’s true. I think fans wanted him gone. I don’t recall an actual time when there was a solid rumor of FO shopping him. Can you give a concrete example? A link?
hey Panos,
there are so many, from after his first season as a Knick and two season's back when he gave the fans the finger and his wife went off on twitter.
but here is one, I don't want to harp on it, Martin made some good points, and I'll just reserve my opinon till after the next move. Or even the non moves potentially.
Julius Randle has been included in trade rumors throughout the summer, but the New York Knicks, while exploring their options, have been unwilling to include draft picks to move him, according to The Athletic's Fred Katz.
"The Knicks, meanwhile, haven’t been willing to attach a first-rounder or two to send him elsewhere," Katz wrote.Katz reported in June during an appearance on the Callin Shots podcast (h/t R.P. Salao of Clutch Points) that the Knicks had exploratory conversations about moving Randle. However, Katz noted it would be difficult to trade the veteran after he took a step backward during the 2021-22 campaign:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1004...
"The Knicks have inquired with other teams about moving Julius Randle. ... I'm not optimistic. If you're somebody who wants them to trade Randle, I wouldn't predict that's what happens this summer. We're talking about like giving him away. Maybe if you take back a contract of equal value."
Panos wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:Some deals work out some don't. Every move is a calculated risk. Rose made some bad choices but nothing catastrophic that has held the team back. Randal is all NBA, and Brunson is all NBA to come. A team with two NBA talents is something we couldn't envision a few years ago. Plus we did great with IQ and Grimes where they were picked. You win some and you lose some. Team this offseason didn't replicate that failed offseason by making too many moves overreacting to a play off loss. Team rolls into the season with a TPE,an expiring 18 million contract, a boatload of second rounders and first rounders, and players with large, medium, and small contracts to make smaller, medium, or a big trade. We are in good shapei'm going to disagree, not many GMS inherit a Randle, RJ, Mitch, Marcus Morris, Bullock Portis, a number 8 pick, all other picks, two dallas picks and turned into Kemba, Rose, Fournier, Noel, picked Obi over a PG.
And to recall things he attempted to trade Randle but teams wanted Leon to include a pick hence not trade, He just last deadline wanted to trade IQ for a protected or late first, again got lucky it didn't happen.
Jalen was imo complete luck, Dallas messed up big time when his dad actually pleaded for them to extend him for 12m, oops! I can on but I'm not a fan of this FO to date, they even messed up getting a player who wanted to be here in Donovan Mitchell, and by rumor all they had to do was take one protected pick say Bucks and turn it into a non protected pick, and right now those picks aren't far apart if projecting 2025.I think this FO failed there first go around because the players named well they either walked or we had to add to get rid of them to have cap for Brunny. Even if we want to give them credit for the Jalen signing and not trading Randle, well i'll go with what they do in next or in the near future will be how we judge them.
As far as IQ, great draft pick love the kid, lets see how we handle him since almost letting him go for a protected, but some could say hey Leon left Bane on the table,right?
Grimes is great, I see him as H2O but plays defense, but now we need to see how Thibs will utilize him with both Hart and DD here.There are FO advocates for the Knicks, nothing i've read all over so far has changed my mind, till further notice.
Here is the TL;DR version: Leon inherited a 21 win team and in 2 of the 3 years the team far outperformed expectations. They have are poised to reach a 50 game season, have a rotation that is one of the youngest in the league, have signed one of the best UFA players in the last decade to one of the best vale contracts in the league (prob not a superstar but potentially really close to it), extended and sign many many core players to very team friendly contracts considering the new salary cap coming up (Randle, Jalen, RJ, Mitch), their core young players have developed very nicely (Mitch one of the best rebounders and interior defenders in league, IQ near 6MOY, Grimes one of the best POA defenders in league, Brunson put into position to shine, Randle put into position to redeem himself to 2 time all NBA), and have plenty of tradable assets to trade for a star over the next 2-3 years.
The rest of what you are saying is just a mishmash of what every other team goes through. Also, you don’t hold something against a team or player or person for something they don’t do, that is silliness.
I would love to give them credit for all the above but my last post explains why, and you can say silliness, I say could be very, very lucky. How many more what if's you want?
what if Lakers said okay we will take Randle for Westbrook straight up? How you feeling? What if Dallas wasn't dumb and Jalen didn't have all the ties to NY?
You can ask the other PSD members I've been on our FO to go after Jalen since the KP trade, I wanted the Knicks at the deadline two years back to trade an asset and give them their pick back to Jalen. I'm not tauting but this really happened and some how with Daddy Brunson begging Dallas to extend his son they still did not.
We got him, I'll give the FO credit for that for sure. But the DM thing? The Obi thing? I'm sorry but I have to take a step back be skeptical but how they will handle the next opportunity.
Now don't get me wrong, probably no happier Knick fan we have Brunny here and I also want IHart before he was even a FA, so happy there as well. I was a full advocate for Hart, and I was basically alone on a island protecting Mitch when he was drafted and his early days.
So again your take is good, right now today at this second, no I can't agree, but I will let them prove what they are with the next move(s).
My final take on Jalen? A 15 year old could have traded our pick and paid Jalen more than Dallas could even touch being in the lux tax. Kind of Bold but that's my take, hope they prove me completely wrong.
Good teams call around the league to assess the trade value of their players all the time, even if they have no intention of trading that player. You do it in the years before you need to extend that player or possibly make future trades, this is actually a very good thing, not something else that you are misinterpreting.
Knick FO (or any FO really) make enough actual moves that are poor that you can actually speak to.
Holding a FO to account for stuff they don’t do is not luck, that’s just something you made up and has zero meaning. Beat writes and other national guys talk about this all the time and all you are doing is repeating it back as a FO having luck not doing something; it’s a bad argument.
I don't use others for my opinions tbh, just saying. So I am calling as it happened and are facts. If a FO wants to do something and the other teams don't comply, then weren't they lucky? It happens but not to this fequency and with your key players you want to give the FO credit for?
Not sure how facts are a bad argument? let me be clear, my grade on the FO is incomplete, it was one year horrible, the next lets give them high grades no matter what you want to call it. So that leaves us in the middle, so to repeat their next moves for me any way will be my assessment of them.
You want to call that a bad argument I call it an opinion, right? You may not agree with me, but if any of my statements are wrong i'm always open to being corrected. And from where we sit Randle was a gonner not once but twice and IQ would have been a gonner at the break.
I used to have these discussions about Frank and Knick fans had his value high, and the rumor came out Knicks wanted and early 2nd or better and didn't get it, so what happened we got nothing for him. If Frank turned out good do we give the FO credit?
I just gave you a completely reasonable take on why a team would call around the league to assess the vale of a player that is on their roster - something that has been repeated by many many people around the league - and you completely ignored it and went on to call it luck.
At a base level, it’s just called doing your job.
After that… 🤷♂️
I'm lost by this honestly? Randle wasn't on the trade seat not once but twice and teams wanted assets to take him?
IQ was on the trade seat?
And if teams constantly get the value of players I guess Dallas didn't get the memo on what the Knicks would offer him?
Do you agree that the next move is a big thing for this FO? Or are you satisfied with them at this point and they are good to go? Just curious.
Not sure what you want me to say, I love Leon? Not yet, is that okay?
While I can appreciate your list of picks that were not necessarily optimally used (to be gentle), I don’t agree with your assessment of Randle being on the trade block. I don’t think that’s true. I think fans wanted him gone. I don’t recall an actual time when there was a solid rumor of FO shopping him. Can you give a concrete example? A link?
and here is one from after the 2020 season apparently he was on the block at the deadline and during the offseason but teams wanted a pick or asset. So after this I'm moving on, i'm fine with my opinion. I don't see any, not one argument about how what they inherited, and how they spent 63m their first year in the FO. I'm really not sure you can do worse, not one player is here and we had to unload them with picks to free up the cap we had prior they inherited.
They made up for it, don't matter how, but we are in the right direction, next move or non moves takes us to the next level, maybe one of IQ and or Grimes really steps it up? Maybe RJ in year 5 becomes what Brown was for Boston in year 4? Legit question is which Randle shows up? Year one, Bad, Year two very good, year 3 bad, year 4 very good, playoffs 2 seasons, not so good.
so lets all hope he breaks the trend and has two consecutive very good seasons then breaks out in the playoffs.
Knicks Open To Trading Julius Randle
June 6th 2020 at 12:29pm CST by marksuleymanov
With the NBA’s plan to return for the 2019/20 in place, the Knicks are officially in the offseason stage, as the organization was not one of the 22 teams summoned to Orlando.In addition to searching for a new head coach, newly-minted team president Leon Rose will also have to focus on building the roster for next season. Last summer’s big free-agent signing, Julius Randle, is someone the team would be open to trading, Marc Berman of the New York Post writes.
The Knicks have already explored moving Randle, as the team had talks with the Hornets ahead of this year’s trade deadline. Randle signed a three-year, $63MM deal last summer after New York failed to land Kevin Durant or Kyrie Irving in free agency.
Randle had flashes of brilliance this season, but his defensive shortcomings and ball-dominant style of play failed to mesh with the Knicks’ core of youngsters. Although Randle averaged 19.7 PPG and 9.7 RPG in 64 games, his strong three-point shooting from a year prior fell to 27.7%.
As Berman notes, there are some financial implications that could hinder dealing Randle, but his $18.9MM salary for next season is manageable. Also, still just 25 years old, Randle can be a helpful piece to an NBA team.
Alpha1971 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Disagree with idea he should take his money and accept his role. Only non athletes say that kind of stuff. If he sits one more year his playing days in NBA will be over. Don't blame an athlete for wanting to compete. Especially if he feels he still can.His expiring is valuable to many teams. Therefore don't see issue trading him and getting something back. Think if we add a second we can get back a usable piece.
Oh, and in the spirit of the forum... It was Randle's and Thib's fault he did not work out.
Viva la France!!Just wonder why we have to add a pick to trade an expiring contract which can be valuable to an other team, that's so Knicks 😂😂. Other teams trade expiring deals and get back firsts. Still remember when Walsh traded players with picks or for pennies on the dollar to get us ready to get a chance at Lebron. Shouldn't the new CBA make Evan's, deal valuable for a team wanting to get under a Apron level and save them lots of tax money and Freedom
Getting a "valuable piece" would require us adding a second.
Agree and mentioned that an expiring is valuable to another team. But that just means they would take him of our hands and maybe offer a second. Not a valuable piece.
My prediction is that he is moved in a three way and we get off his contract and a decent role player. Thought we had a shot at Payne in that scenario. Heard Dougy being mentioned lately.
stillafan wrote:Panos wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:martin wrote:stillafan wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:Some deals work out some don't. Every move is a calculated risk. Rose made some bad choices but nothing catastrophic that has held the team back. Randal is all NBA, and Brunson is all NBA to come. A team with two NBA talents is something we couldn't envision a few years ago. Plus we did great with IQ and Grimes where they were picked. You win some and you lose some. Team this offseason didn't replicate that failed offseason by making too many moves overreacting to a play off loss. Team rolls into the season with a TPE,an expiring 18 million contract, a boatload of second rounders and first rounders, and players with large, medium, and small contracts to make smaller, medium, or a big trade. We are in good shapei'm going to disagree, not many GMS inherit a Randle, RJ, Mitch, Marcus Morris, Bullock Portis, a number 8 pick, all other picks, two dallas picks and turned into Kemba, Rose, Fournier, Noel, picked Obi over a PG.
And to recall things he attempted to trade Randle but teams wanted Leon to include a pick hence not trade, He just last deadline wanted to trade IQ for a protected or late first, again got lucky it didn't happen.
Jalen was imo complete luck, Dallas messed up big time when his dad actually pleaded for them to extend him for 12m, oops! I can on but I'm not a fan of this FO to date, they even messed up getting a player who wanted to be here in Donovan Mitchell, and by rumor all they had to do was take one protected pick say Bucks and turn it into a non protected pick, and right now those picks aren't far apart if projecting 2025.I think this FO failed there first go around because the players named well they either walked or we had to add to get rid of them to have cap for Brunny. Even if we want to give them credit for the Jalen signing and not trading Randle, well i'll go with what they do in next or in the near future will be how we judge them.
As far as IQ, great draft pick love the kid, lets see how we handle him since almost letting him go for a protected, but some could say hey Leon left Bane on the table,right?
Grimes is great, I see him as H2O but plays defense, but now we need to see how Thibs will utilize him with both Hart and DD here.There are FO advocates for the Knicks, nothing i've read all over so far has changed my mind, till further notice.
Here is the TL;DR version: Leon inherited a 21 win team and in 2 of the 3 years the team far outperformed expectations. They have are poised to reach a 50 game season, have a rotation that is one of the youngest in the league, have signed one of the best UFA players in the last decade to one of the best vale contracts in the league (prob not a superstar but potentially really close to it), extended and sign many many core players to very team friendly contracts considering the new salary cap coming up (Randle, Jalen, RJ, Mitch), their core young players have developed very nicely (Mitch one of the best rebounders and interior defenders in league, IQ near 6MOY, Grimes one of the best POA defenders in league, Brunson put into position to shine, Randle put into position to redeem himself to 2 time all NBA), and have plenty of tradable assets to trade for a star over the next 2-3 years.
The rest of what you are saying is just a mishmash of what every other team goes through. Also, you don’t hold something against a team or player or person for something they don’t do, that is silliness.
I would love to give them credit for all the above but my last post explains why, and you can say silliness, I say could be very, very lucky. How many more what if's you want?
what if Lakers said okay we will take Randle for Westbrook straight up? How you feeling? What if Dallas wasn't dumb and Jalen didn't have all the ties to NY?
You can ask the other PSD members I've been on our FO to go after Jalen since the KP trade, I wanted the Knicks at the deadline two years back to trade an asset and give them their pick back to Jalen. I'm not tauting but this really happened and some how with Daddy Brunson begging Dallas to extend his son they still did not.
We got him, I'll give the FO credit for that for sure. But the DM thing? The Obi thing? I'm sorry but I have to take a step back be skeptical but how they will handle the next opportunity.
Now don't get me wrong, probably no happier Knick fan we have Brunny here and I also want IHart before he was even a FA, so happy there as well. I was a full advocate for Hart, and I was basically alone on a island protecting Mitch when he was drafted and his early days.
So again your take is good, right now today at this second, no I can't agree, but I will let them prove what they are with the next move(s).
My final take on Jalen? A 15 year old could have traded our pick and paid Jalen more than Dallas could even touch being in the lux tax. Kind of Bold but that's my take, hope they prove me completely wrong.
Good teams call around the league to assess the trade value of their players all the time, even if they have no intention of trading that player. You do it in the years before you need to extend that player or possibly make future trades, this is actually a very good thing, not something else that you are misinterpreting.
Knick FO (or any FO really) make enough actual moves that are poor that you can actually speak to.
Holding a FO to account for stuff they don’t do is not luck, that’s just something you made up and has zero meaning. Beat writes and other national guys talk about this all the time and all you are doing is repeating it back as a FO having luck not doing something; it’s a bad argument.
I don't use others for my opinions tbh, just saying. So I am calling as it happened and are facts. If a FO wants to do something and the other teams don't comply, then weren't they lucky? It happens but not to this fequency and with your key players you want to give the FO credit for?
Not sure how facts are a bad argument? let me be clear, my grade on the FO is incomplete, it was one year horrible, the next lets give them high grades no matter what you want to call it. So that leaves us in the middle, so to repeat their next moves for me any way will be my assessment of them.
You want to call that a bad argument I call it an opinion, right? You may not agree with me, but if any of my statements are wrong i'm always open to being corrected. And from where we sit Randle was a gonner not once but twice and IQ would have been a gonner at the break.
I used to have these discussions about Frank and Knick fans had his value high, and the rumor came out Knicks wanted and early 2nd or better and didn't get it, so what happened we got nothing for him. If Frank turned out good do we give the FO credit?
I just gave you a completely reasonable take on why a team would call around the league to assess the vale of a player that is on their roster - something that has been repeated by many many people around the league - and you completely ignored it and went on to call it luck.
At a base level, it’s just called doing your job.
After that… 🤷♂️
I'm lost by this honestly? Randle wasn't on the trade seat not once but twice and teams wanted assets to take him?
IQ was on the trade seat?
And if teams constantly get the value of players I guess Dallas didn't get the memo on what the Knicks would offer him?
Do you agree that the next move is a big thing for this FO? Or are you satisfied with them at this point and they are good to go? Just curious.
Not sure what you want me to say, I love Leon? Not yet, is that okay?
While I can appreciate your list of picks that were not necessarily optimally used (to be gentle), I don’t agree with your assessment of Randle being on the trade block. I don’t think that’s true. I think fans wanted him gone. I don’t recall an actual time when there was a solid rumor of FO shopping him. Can you give a concrete example? A link?and here is one from after the 2020 season apparently he was on the block at the deadline and during the offseason but teams wanted a pick or asset. So after this I'm moving on, i'm fine with my opinion. I don't see any, not one argument about how what they inherited, and how they spent 63m their first year in the FO. I'm really not sure you can do worse, not one player is here and we had to unload them with picks to free up the cap we had prior they inherited.
They made up for it, don't matter how, but we are in the right direction, next move or non moves takes us to the next level, maybe one of IQ and or Grimes really steps it up? Maybe RJ in year 5 becomes what Brown was for Boston in year 4? Legit question is which Randle shows up? Year one, Bad, Year two very good, year 3 bad, year 4 very good, playoffs 2 seasons, not so good.
so lets all hope he breaks the trend and has two consecutive very good seasons then breaks out in the playoffs.
Knicks Open To Trading Julius Randle
June 6th 2020 at 12:29pm CST by marksuleymanov
With the NBA’s plan to return for the 2019/20 in place, the Knicks are officially in the offseason stage, as the organization was not one of the 22 teams summoned to Orlando.In addition to searching for a new head coach, newly-minted team president Leon Rose will also have to focus on building the roster for next season. Last summer’s big free-agent signing, Julius Randle, is someone the team would be open to trading, Marc Berman of the New York Post writes.
The Knicks have already explored moving Randle, as the team had talks with the Hornets ahead of this year’s trade deadline. Randle signed a three-year, $63MM deal last summer after New York failed to land Kevin Durant or Kyrie Irving in free agency.
Randle had flashes of brilliance this season, but his defensive shortcomings and ball-dominant style of play failed to mesh with the Knicks’ core of youngsters. Although Randle averaged 19.7 PPG and 9.7 RPG in 64 games, his strong three-point shooting from a year prior fell to 27.7%.
As Berman notes, there are some financial implications that could hinder dealing Randle, but his $18.9MM salary for next season is manageable. Also, still just 25 years old, Randle can be a helpful piece to an NBA team.
These types of “articles” are very hard to get actual information from. Mostly they are just aggregated info that gets spun around.
The Hoopshype summary spins something Berman was asked about and here is the context:
Are the Knicks looking to trade (Julius) Randle this offseason? Doesn’t seem like he fits with RJ or LaMelo [Ball] (fingers crossed!). — Allan GuceUndoubtedly the Knicks are open to it.
That’s it. That’s literally all the HoopsHype aggregation is based off of with an off handed remark about talking with the Hornets about something, with exactly zero details mentioned. Maybe I’m missing something? Maybe help me understand where you got the “moving Randle with assets” during that 2020 timeframe.
The further context is that it was the first summer Leon and company took over, so it’s natural for them to have that position, the open to options position. Not for nothing, but every Knicks player on the roster today is also is open for the option to move except for probably Brunson.
IDK I wouldn’t put too much weight into any of that, like it’s all a nothing burger situation.
HofstraBBall wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Disagree with idea he should take his money and accept his role. Only non athletes say that kind of stuff. If he sits one more year his playing days in NBA will be over. Don't blame an athlete for wanting to compete. Especially if he feels he still can.His expiring is valuable to many teams. Therefore don't see issue trading him and getting something back. Think if we add a second we can get back a usable piece.
Oh, and in the spirit of the forum... It was Randle's and Thib's fault he did not work out.
Viva la France!!Just wonder why we have to add a pick to trade an expiring contract which can be valuable to an other team, that's so Knicks 😂😂. Other teams trade expiring deals and get back firsts. Still remember when Walsh traded players with picks or for pennies on the dollar to get us ready to get a chance at Lebron. Shouldn't the new CBA make Evan's, deal valuable for a team wanting to get under a Apron level and save them lots of tax money and Freedom
Getting a "valuable piece" would require us adding a second.
Agree and mentioned that an expiring is valuable to another team. But that just means they would take him of our hands and maybe offer a second. Not a valuable piece.My prediction is that he is moved in a three way and we get off his contract and a decent role player. Thought we had a shot at Payne in that scenario. Heard Dougy being mentioned lately.
I love the idea of Dougie here but the question is minutes, Fourn don't play and we already have rotation questions with DD added. I think and can be wrong but Knicks were a bit slow at the wheel with Payne in that three way rumor and SA still upset about that Marcus signing might have said screw it lets do the deal ourselves.
Problem now is SA has limited cap left after taking Payne est 5m so the Dougie can be done with a swap for Fourn but it's going to cost and imo a min of the seconds we got for Obi.
Dougie has played a ton of PF so a perfect guy to take Obi minutes but that limits the wings. But damn if he can't shoot, drive, pump fake and defend, yes now he actually defends. I thought he'd be Laker bound or somewhere you use him to spread the court.
SA makes sense I've been saying that myself but it will cost. And the question I have is why would SA want to pay 5m more to make the swap unless we gave them something in picks and maybe cash in the deal, I believe from memory the max was 6.4m for last season(est 7m this season) so that should not be a problem making the money situation at least equal.
The flip side is SA played him so they may do the same and wait out till the deadline and see if teams are desperate maybe because of injuries etc.
martin wrote:
These types of “articles” are very hard to get actual information from. Mostly they are just aggregated info that gets spun around.The Hoopshype summary spins something Berman was asked about and here is the context:
Are the Knicks looking to trade (Julius) Randle this offseason? Doesn’t seem like he fits with RJ or LaMelo [Ball] (fingers crossed!). — Allan GuceUndoubtedly the Knicks are open to it.
That’s it. That’s literally all the HoopsHype aggregation is based off of with an off handed remark about talking with the Hornets about something, with exactly zero details mentioned. Maybe I’m missing something? Maybe help me understand where you got the “moving Randle with assets” during that 2020 timeframe.
The further context is that it was the first summer Leon and company took over, so it’s natural for them to have that position, the open to options position. Not for nothing, but every Knicks player on the roster today is also is open for the option to move except for probably Brunson.
IDK I wouldn’t put too much weight into any of that, like it’s all a nothing burger situation.
Martin there were many, the rumors were flying by not just Berman, I just pasted the first one I saw, it's all over google. Maybe there was more a chance Knicks wanted to move Randle then not? I mean what proof does anyone have or statements they weren't moving him? Usually a FO will state we are not moving Randle, right or wrong?
But it's not one season it's two, because there were talks about Randle for Westy in 2022 and Lakers were said to want a first, and Knicks declined.
So back to 2020:
Kevin O'Connor
@KevinOConnorNBA
·
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The Knicks and Hornets have had trade talks involving Julius Randle, per league sources.
7:57 PM · Feb 3, 2020
Then Begley basically confirmed there were talks :
According to Begley, “it’s unclear if there is significant traction between New York and Charlotte on any deal involving the players mentioned.”Remember, these talks were going down as Dolan was mulling his decision to let go of Mills.
We can keep going, but here is yet another:
On Monday, Jonathan Marci of Knicks Film School reported in his Free Agent Frenzy newsletter that Julius Randle and Kevin Knox would be the center of a trade that would send them to the Oklahoma City Thunder and bring Chris Paul to the New York Knicks.“According to multiple sources familiar with the Knicks thinking, New York is readying initial offers to potentially bring the Point God to the Mecca. Julius Randle and Kevin Knox are two names I’m hearing are involved in internal discussions. I’m also told that Paul’s preference will play into his eventual destination, and his connection with Leon Rose is a factor.”
While i'm not a fan of a source said lol, it's more than anyone coming out and saying according to a source Knicks are not willing to trade Randle?
If we don't discuss multiple sources what actually would anyone discuss? Not like our Leon is talking to the Public or Knick fans, actually the opposite.
gradyandrew wrote:stillafan wrote:
There are FO advocates for the Knicks, nothing i've read all over so far has changed my mind, till further notice.What about making the second round of the playoffs and potentially having 6 first round picks over the next two drafts?
Seems like the franchise is in the best position it's been in over 20 years.
Yes - I just don’t get the negative commentary on the front office — I find them remarkably refreshing for NY and the Knicks.
Have they missed on stuff sure but to date they have held most of their chips in hand and we have a very solid/deep team assuming folks stay healthy + we have potential for 4-5 young guys to improve. Counting RJ, IQ, Grimes, Mitch, Deuce - hell even I- Hart.
LivingLegend wrote:gradyandrew wrote:stillafan wrote:
There are FO advocates for the Knicks, nothing i've read all over so far has changed my mind, till further notice.What about making the second round of the playoffs and potentially having 6 first round picks over the next two drafts?
Seems like the franchise is in the best position it's been in over 20 years.
Yes - I just don’t get the negative commentary on the front office — I find them remarkably refreshing for NY and the Knicks.
Have they missed on stuff sure but to date they have held most of their chips in hand and we have a very solid/deep team assuming folks stay healthy + we have potential for 4-5 young guys to improve. Counting RJ, IQ, Grimes, Mitch, Deuce - hell even I- Hart.
we are kind of beating a dead horse, no? they had a terrible start with 63m in cap and inherited all the picks, and players i've named, getting redundant.
lets all agree yea for last year
So here we are one terrible and one yea, lets see what happens next, so far we know we didn't get DM in a trade that Cleve snuck in and got.
Speaking of DM if we traded what we were rumored wouldn't most of our picks be gone? DM is a great player but i'm not sure we'd be better than last year with him and we have no idea if we get out of the first round because we would not have faced Clev could have been the heat/
we can do this all day lol........me personal I would hope any FO could have landed Jalen with the relationships and money offered? Either that or they better be fired, just imo.
I am probably more interested in what happens next, I hope for the best. Maybe DM was another lucky break, maybe he wouldn't make us a contender with Jalen and him in the backcourt? All I know is so far DM and a small PG has had good success not great, losing to the Knicks well kind of keeps the ? alive. And in Utah as well, hence why they broke it up.
Maybe having RJ, IQ, Cam(since we got Hart) down the line might be better for us? We will never ever know.
And lastly its not negative commentary, they failed in their first year they did well last year, this past offseason I like getting DD, I don't like getting 2 lesser of two teams seconds for Obi.
so we wait, if thats negative then I'm not sure of the definition tbh. Seems pretty accurate to me, no?
But i'm not sure what is refreshing when a FO inherits a team that finished as the 4th seed that season, and yet had 63m in cap and spent it on Fourn, Rose, Kemba and Noel, all negativs. We find out later that DD's choice was NY, and he was in the MVP discussions for quite some time that year.
They inherited every single pick including that seasons #8 and chose Obi (equates to 2 seconds of two lesser teams) when Hali was on the board and now he's a max player, and even Maxey if you want to go further down and could have traded down for both.
that wasn't a long time ago folks, I need more to be refreshed lol
OK I get it everyone loves the FO, I don't hate them, I'm not yet sold on them. I believe I have enough to warrant those feelings and opinions. I am thankful however for no dumb moves this offseason making a trade for an injured older star that costs an arm and a leg, so yes the Knicks pulling out of the PG13 trade I was happy to hear that only because of the cost involved in both players, picks and what PG wanted a 5 year max extension. Great job!
stillafan wrote:I have to add this, i've been discussing year one primarily, year two no matter how I feel it's successful and that is the bottom line.But i'm not sure what is refreshing when a FO inherits a team that finished as the 4th seed that season, and yet had 63m in cap and spent it on Fourn, Rose, Kemba and Noel, all negativs. We find out later that DD's choice was NY, and he was in the MVP discussions for quite some time that year.
They inherited every single pick including that seasons #8 and chose Obi (equates to 2 seconds of two lesser teams) when Hali was on the board and now he's a max player, and even Maxey if you want to go further down and could have traded down for both.that wasn't a long time ago folks, I need more to be refreshed lol
OK I get it everyone loves the FO, I don't hate them, I'm not yet sold on them. I believe I have enough to warrant those feelings and opinions. I am thankful however for no dumb moves this offseason making a trade for an injured older star that costs an arm and a leg, so yes the Knicks pulling out of the PG13 trade I was happy to hear that only because of the cost involved in both players, picks and what PG wanted a 5 year max extension. Great job!
Ok great that's what you think. Maybe I personally agree with some of it. Doesn't seem relevant to continue to speak about it for me. Your point seems to be Knicks front office isn't perfect, fine, I agree. But if they haven't done anything they should be fired for, my opinion, then moving forward we acknowledge they have been more positive then negative. You want to dwell on the past then, like I said " Fandom expresses itself in all kinds of ways ". Yet, I won't keep discussing it like you are. Seems pointless to me and not fun or productive to keep that line of discussion going. But if that's what you like and you find others interested in that kind of topic, " Have a great time "
stillafan wrote:I have to add this, i've been discussing year one primarily, year two no matter how I feel it's successful and that is the bottom line.But i'm not sure what is refreshing when a FO inherits a team that finished as the 4th seed that season, and yet had 63m in cap and spent it on Fourn, Rose, Kemba and Noel, all negativs.
It's your come to Alba time because you have your facts wrong and need to reevaluate your thinking.
Leon Rose took over on March 2 of 2020 with 5 games left in the season of a 21-45 campaign, good for 12th in the East. His first move was hiring Thibs. He drafted Obi and IQ, then signed Burks Bullock and Noel and traded for Rose his first season.
Second season he drafted Grimes and McBride, resigned Noel Burks Rose, and signed Fournier and Kemba and extended Randle.
Third season he signed Brunson and Hartenstein and extended Robinson and Barrett, and traded for Hart.
Fourth offseason he signed DDV.
Knicks missed the playoffs for 7 straight seasons prior to his arrival and have made the playoffs 2/3 since. The previous 3 seasons they won .293 of games, under Rose .531 an 81% improvement. They also have more first round picks in the bank than anytime I can remember.
Anyway you slice it Knicks present and future have improved since Rose and Co took over.