Knicks · Quentin Grimes was a better on-ball defender than Jrue Holiday last season and the numbers suggest it wasn’t really close (page 1)

I know Knicks fans are bored waiting for the season to start, but I think people are forgetting just how good defensively Quentin Grimes was in his 2nd season in the NBA. So I wanted to present some stats just to show how elite Grimes was last season.

Grimes made a huge leap defensive last season and lead the entire league in matchup difficulty.

How big was it to lead the league in matchup difficulty? By the numbers Grimes had the 3rd highest matchup difficulty season in the past decade!. Thibs was really leaning on Grimes to guard every single player at a near historic rate. So how did Grimes do in his assignments?

Opponents only shot 31.4% // 0.72 PPP in ISO when Grimes was guarding them. In comparison opponents shot 45.2% // 0.86 PPP against Jrue Holiday in ISO.

This is due to the fact that Grimes is a versatile defender who can matchup with nearly every position in the NBA, while Jrue is mainly effective against guards and gets bullied by wings.

We saw this in the playoffs in the first round where Jimmy Butler averaged 56.5%! against Jrue on 46 FGA

Meanwhile Grimes was able to hold Donovan Mitchell to 27% in the first round and then held Jimmy 30.8% shooting when matched-up with him in the second round.

Now I know some of you will argue that Jimmy was injured but this tracks to the regular season where Jrue usually gets abused by big wings (Butler 50 FG%, Tatum 71.4 FG%, Lavine 57.1%). While Grimes holds his own(Butler 43.8 FG%, Tatum 38.9 FG%, 47.6%)

Now this doesn’t mean that Grimes is better than Jrue or that Jrue doesn’t offer other attributes than Grimes that make him a better all-around defender (off-ball defense, passing lane navigation, veteran savvy, etc.), but it does show that Grimes had an elite impact as just a 2nd year player. To trade or bench Grimes for Jrue who is more than a decade older and doesn’t even offer an upgrade offensively does not seem to be the wise moves that this front office likes to make.

Grimes needs all the reps and minutes he can get and I can’t wait for the season to start to see his next chapter as a Knicks starter.

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https://www.nba.com/stats/player/201950/...

Grimes is a filthy defensive player. He's only going to get better at that as he learns the league more and more. Cant wait to see if our crew can level up again!

Knixkik wrote:I love how grimes is improving. Id love both he and holiday on this team. It would be a defensive nightmare for other teams.

Surely Brunson and RJ are "willing" defenders but Grimes/IQ/Hart/DD are difference makers on that side of the ball AND can get you buckets.

Also we had the youngest rotation in the playoffs last year. You CAN stand pat when that's the case

I think the Knicks value him so much they wouldn’t even consider trading for Jrue to put next to Jalen cause they already got Grimes and love him so much.

fishmike wrote:huge reason I want to run it back. I am very high on IQ and Grimes and how we can continue to develop them and what they can do to make the squad better.

Grimes is a filthy defensive player. He's only going to get better at that as he learns the league more and more. Cant wait to see if our crew can level up again!

I mean, if we are saying that Grimes always takes the toughest matchup, don't we have to conversely say that Brunson and Barrett never take the toughest matchup?

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:huge reason I want to run it back. I am very high on IQ and Grimes and how we can continue to develop them and what they can do to make the squad better.

Grimes is a filthy defensive player. He's only going to get better at that as he learns the league more and more. Cant wait to see if our crew can level up again!

I mean, if we are saying that Grimes always takes the toughest matchup, don't we have to conversely say that Brunson and Barrett never take the toughest matchup?

I mean, Grimes has to take a break sometime. I'd ask for a similar write up on RJs defense last season, but I don't want to ruin my mood.

martin wrote:Grimes is going to be good. Real good

I think the Knicks value him so much they wouldn’t even consider trading for Jrue to put next to Jalen cause they already got Grimes and love him so much.

For 2.3mm.

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:Grimes is going to be good. Real good

I think the Knicks value him so much they wouldn’t even consider trading for Jrue to put next to Jalen cause they already got Grimes and love him so much.

For 2.3mm.

And $4.3m next year too

Grimes learns to change gears when he drives. Its not just a mad dash for the rim. Q will be an all star.

I honestly dont know if that part of his game will develop. To me its the difference between being a 3&D specialist, and a complete player.

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying this early last season, didnt hear much in agreement.

Grimes learns to change gears when he drives. Its not just a mad dash for the rim. Q will be an all star.

I honestly dont know if that part of his game will develop. To me its the difference between being a 3&D specialist, and a complete player.

YES - I’ve made similar posts in terms of Quentin’s complete lack of a mid-range jump shot —- no idea how such a skilled player can’t take 1 or 2 dribbles and knock down a few mid-range shots. Also like you said - everything is rushed with Quentin - his catch and shoots are rushed and when he puts the ball down going to the rim he predetermines whether he’s shooting a layup or passing.

If we could get the kid to relax, slow down a second, handle more….shoot some mid range he’s just a perfect kid who I love.

Just not sure he will calm down at some point.

LivingLegend wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying this early last season, didnt hear much in agreement.

Grimes learns to change gears when he drives. Its not just a mad dash for the rim. Q will be an all star.

I honestly dont know if that part of his game will develop. To me its the difference between being a 3&D specialist, and a complete player.

YES - I’ve made similar posts in terms of Quentin’s complete lack of a mid-range jump shot —- no idea how such a skilled player can’t take 1 or 2 dribbles and knock down a few mid-range shots. Also like you said - everything is rushed with Quentin - his catch and shoots are rushed and when he puts the ball down going to the rim he predetermines whether he’s shooting a layup or passing.

If we could get the kid to relax, slow down a second, handle more….shoot some mid range he’s just a perfect kid who I love.

Just not sure he will calm down at some point.

Think of it from a development perspective instead of a fan’s perspective of wanting and expecting to watch the perfect player.

Grimes has about a year and a half a NBA experience, ~120 games with time missed with injury. And the Knicks have obviously asked him to concentrate on defense as his #1 priority.

After that, they’ve asked him to be a spacer. The Knicks barely have any of those guys on the team, he IQ and Brunson are the only high volume spacers on the team and the rest of the guys - especially volume guys like Randle and RJ - are guys that like to get to the rim, along with Brunson.

That’s the basic model for their team. Space some with PnR with a few guys like Grimes, IQ who hold defenders at the edges.

After that, you don’t develop a young player by overloading them. You ask them to do a number of things at a high level over and over and against enough of the league until they get it, especially where to be when running PnR and all the counters when things get mucked up. That’s what his ask was: learn to defend the best players in the league on one end of court and be a spacer on the other end with a few movement things.

Learn to get all the way to rim first. Either get to the rim or make the pass because you are going to the rim after breaking down your guy.

You could also tell that Grimes hit a wall around the all-star break too. It’s a natural thing given how much he was asked to do on defense.

Ask him to do too many things and you overload an already overloaded player. I’d expect a natural progression to the mid range over the next years.

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying this early last season, didnt hear much in agreement.

Grimes learns to change gears when he drives. Its not just a mad dash for the rim. Q will be an all star.

I honestly dont know if that part of his game will develop. To me its the difference between being a 3&D specialist, and a complete player.

YES - I’ve made similar posts in terms of Quentin’s complete lack of a mid-range jump shot —- no idea how such a skilled player can’t take 1 or 2 dribbles and knock down a few mid-range shots. Also like you said - everything is rushed with Quentin - his catch and shoots are rushed and when he puts the ball down going to the rim he predetermines whether he’s shooting a layup or passing.

If we could get the kid to relax, slow down a second, handle more….shoot some mid range he’s just a perfect kid who I love.

Just not sure he will calm down at some point.

Think of it from a development perspective instead of a fan’s perspective of wanting and expecting to watch the perfect player.

Grimes has about a year and a half a NBA experience, ~120 games with time missed with injury. And the Knicks have obviously asked him to concentrate on defense as his #1 priority.

After that, they’ve asked him to be a spacer. The Knicks barely have any of those guys on the team, he IQ and Brunson are the only high volume spacers on the team and the rest of the guys - especially volume guys like Randle and RJ - are guys that like to get to the rim, along with Brunson.

That’s the basic model for their team. Space some with PnR with a few guys like Grimes, IQ who hold defenders at the edges.

After that, you don’t develop a young player by overloading them. You ask them to do a number of things at a high level over and over and against enough of the league until they get it, especially where to be when running PnR and all the counters when things get mucked up. That’s what his ask was: learn to defend the best players in the league on one end of court and be a spacer on the other end with a few movement things.

Learn to get all the way to rim first. Either get to the rim or make the pass because you are going to the rim after breaking down your guy.

You could also tell that Grimes hit a wall around the all-star break too. It’s a natural thing given how much he was asked to do on defense.

Ask him to do too many things and you overload an already overloaded player. I’d expect a natural progression to the mid range over the next years.

Good points Martin.

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martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying this early last season, didnt hear much in agreement.

Grimes learns to change gears when he drives. Its not just a mad dash for the rim. Q will be an all star.

I honestly dont know if that part of his game will develop. To me its the difference between being a 3&D specialist, and a complete player.

YES - I’ve made similar posts in terms of Quentin’s complete lack of a mid-range jump shot —- no idea how such a skilled player can’t take 1 or 2 dribbles and knock down a few mid-range shots. Also like you said - everything is rushed with Quentin - his catch and shoots are rushed and when he puts the ball down going to the rim he predetermines whether he’s shooting a layup or passing.

If we could get the kid to relax, slow down a second, handle more….shoot some mid range he’s just a perfect kid who I love.

Just not sure he will calm down at some point.

Think of it from a development perspective instead of a fan’s perspective of wanting and expecting to watch the perfect player.

Grimes has about a year and a half a NBA experience, ~120 games with time missed with injury. And the Knicks have obviously asked him to concentrate on defense as his #1 priority.

After that, they’ve asked him to be a spacer. The Knicks barely have any of those guys on the team, he IQ and Brunson are the only high volume spacers on the team and the rest of the guys - especially volume guys like Randle and RJ - are guys that like to get to the rim, along with Brunson.

That’s the basic model for their team. Space some with PnR with a few guys like Grimes, IQ who hold defenders at the edges.

After that, you don’t develop a young player by overloading them. You ask them to do a number of things at a high level over and over and against enough of the league until they get it, especially where to be when running PnR and all the counters when things get mucked up. That’s what his ask was: learn to defend the best players in the league on one end of court and be a spacer on the other end with a few movement things.

Learn to get all the way to rim first. Either get to the rim or make the pass because you are going to the rim after breaking down your guy.

You could also tell that Grimes hit a wall around the all-star break too. It’s a natural thing given how much he was asked to do on defense.

Ask him to do too many things and you overload an already overloaded player. I’d expect a natural progression to the mid range over the next years.

You're conflating Grimes lack of a midrange game, floater, the unwillingness to drive from the top of the key, with wanting a "perfect player".

Perfect players never miss, or make a mistake. Complete players have the necessary skillset to not only start, but give their team the best chance to win.

A midrange game is a must have for a starter. How many starting SGs cant hit a floater, or attempt a mid range jumper on a regular basis? Cant say for sure, but not many. Most shooting guards already have that skill when they enter the league. They might neeed to improve on that aspect of their game, but its not practically non-existent as it is with Grimes.

We arent talking about a rookie here. We're talking about a player who is spending his summers training with Penny Hardaway. I get patience, I dont get the belief that this part of his game is guaranteed to develop, or pointing out Grimes defense as an excuse for a lack of development of a midrange game. They arent mutually exclusive.

martin wrote:And after all that, we shall let the man speak for himself

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Rooting for Quentin —— make it happen young man.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying this early last season, didnt hear much in agreement.

Grimes learns to change gears when he drives. Its not just a mad dash for the rim. Q will be an all star.

I honestly dont know if that part of his game will develop. To me its the difference between being a 3&D specialist, and a complete player.

YES - I’ve made similar posts in terms of Quentin’s complete lack of a mid-range jump shot —- no idea how such a skilled player can’t take 1 or 2 dribbles and knock down a few mid-range shots. Also like you said - everything is rushed with Quentin - his catch and shoots are rushed and when he puts the ball down going to the rim he predetermines whether he’s shooting a layup or passing.

If we could get the kid to relax, slow down a second, handle more….shoot some mid range he’s just a perfect kid who I love.

Just not sure he will calm down at some point.

Think of it from a development perspective instead of a fan’s perspective of wanting and expecting to watch the perfect player.

Grimes has about a year and a half a NBA experience, ~120 games with time missed with injury. And the Knicks have obviously asked him to concentrate on defense as his #1 priority.

After that, they’ve asked him to be a spacer. The Knicks barely have any of those guys on the team, he IQ and Brunson are the only high volume spacers on the team and the rest of the guys - especially volume guys like Randle and RJ - are guys that like to get to the rim, along with Brunson.

That’s the basic model for their team. Space some with PnR with a few guys like Grimes, IQ who hold defenders at the edges.

After that, you don’t develop a young player by overloading them. You ask them to do a number of things at a high level over and over and against enough of the league until they get it, especially where to be when running PnR and all the counters when things get mucked up. That’s what his ask was: learn to defend the best players in the league on one end of court and be a spacer on the other end with a few movement things.

Learn to get all the way to rim first. Either get to the rim or make the pass because you are going to the rim after breaking down your guy.

You could also tell that Grimes hit a wall around the all-star break too. It’s a natural thing given how much he was asked to do on defense.

Ask him to do too many things and you overload an already overloaded player. I’d expect a natural progression to the mid range over the next years.

You're conflating Grimes lack of a midrange game, floater, the unwillingness to drive from the top of the key, with wanting a "perfect player".

Perfect players never miss, or make a mistake. Complete players have the necessary skillset to not only start, but give their team the best chance to win.

A midrange game is a must have for a starter. How many starting SGs cant hit a floater, or attempt a mid range jumper on a regular basis? Cant say for sure, but not many. Most shooting guards already have that skill when they enter the league. They might neeed to improve on that aspect of their game, but its not practically non-existent as it is with Grimes.

We arent talking about a rookie here. We're talking about a player who is spending his summers training with Penny Hardaway. I get patience, I dont get the belief that this part of his game is guaranteed to develop, or pointing out Grimes defense as an excuse for a lack of development of a midrange game. They arent mutually exclusive.

I think both Martin and yourself make good points.

Martin is saying be patient which is really hard for fans but I don’t think either you or I were talking perfection. The total and complete lack of a mid range game is alarming with Q - hell even RJ bricks some mid range shots 😐.

Different era these days - if I walk into a gym to shoot today every kid is chucking/bricking 3’s - even guys who obviously don’t play (at all) nobody even shoots mid range. It’s either chuck up a 3 or dribble for 10 seconds and shoot a wild layup - lol.

In any event I love Grimes and his team first defensive mentality—— if he can make a nice step offensively we should be very tough as a team

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying this early last season, didnt hear much in agreement.

Grimes learns to change gears when he drives. Its not just a mad dash for the rim. Q will be an all star.

I honestly dont know if that part of his game will develop. To me its the difference between being a 3&D specialist, and a complete player.

YES - I’ve made similar posts in terms of Quentin’s complete lack of a mid-range jump shot —- no idea how such a skilled player can’t take 1 or 2 dribbles and knock down a few mid-range shots. Also like you said - everything is rushed with Quentin - his catch and shoots are rushed and when he puts the ball down going to the rim he predetermines whether he’s shooting a layup or passing.

If we could get the kid to relax, slow down a second, handle more….shoot some mid range he’s just a perfect kid who I love.

Just not sure he will calm down at some point.

Think of it from a development perspective instead of a fan’s perspective of wanting and expecting to watch the perfect player.

Grimes has about a year and a half a NBA experience, ~120 games with time missed with injury. And the Knicks have obviously asked him to concentrate on defense as his #1 priority.

After that, they’ve asked him to be a spacer. The Knicks barely have any of those guys on the team, he IQ and Brunson are the only high volume spacers on the team and the rest of the guys - especially volume guys like Randle and RJ - are guys that like to get to the rim, along with Brunson.

That’s the basic model for their team. Space some with PnR with a few guys like Grimes, IQ who hold defenders at the edges.

After that, you don’t develop a young player by overloading them. You ask them to do a number of things at a high level over and over and against enough of the league until they get it, especially where to be when running PnR and all the counters when things get mucked up. That’s what his ask was: learn to defend the best players in the league on one end of court and be a spacer on the other end with a few movement things.

Learn to get all the way to rim first. Either get to the rim or make the pass because you are going to the rim after breaking down your guy.

You could also tell that Grimes hit a wall around the all-star break too. It’s a natural thing given how much he was asked to do on defense.

Ask him to do too many things and you overload an already overloaded player. I’d expect a natural progression to the mid range over the next years.

You're conflating Grimes lack of a midrange game, floater, the unwillingness to drive from the top of the key, with wanting a "perfect player".

Perfect players never miss, or make a mistake. Complete players have the necessary skillset to not only start, but give their team the best chance to win.

A midrange game is a must have for a starter. How many starting SGs cant hit a floater, or attempt a mid range jumper on a regular basis? Cant say for sure, but not many. Most shooting guards already have that skill when they enter the league. They might neeed to improve on that aspect of their game, but its not practically non-existent as it is with Grimes.

We arent talking about a rookie here. We're talking about a player who is spending his summers training with Penny Hardaway. I get patience, I dont get the belief that this part of his game is guaranteed to develop, or pointing out Grimes defense as an excuse for a lack of development of a midrange game. They arent mutually exclusive.

Right. You have zero clue on how develop is structured and conflate not seeing with not having while completely ignoring the realities of the team makeup and what roles the players in them are asked to do.

In a good developer environment you build things one step at a time. In his first year, Grimes barely went to rim, now he gets there at a good clip in his second year. You ask guys to do things in their wheelhouse that fits what other guys are also doing.

But good on you to point out the obvious of Grimes not being in his first year. Because second year players should always already show that they can do things from all areas on the court.

It’s a nonsensical and frivolous expectation quite frankly. Like who cares.

“Grimes, you should shoot the analytically worst type of shot they track in the NBA, the one you may not have yet polished, but do it anyway because you are a starting shooting guard and because ????”. Because what?

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying this early last season, didnt hear much in agreement.

Grimes learns to change gears when he drives. Its not just a mad dash for the rim. Q will be an all star.

I honestly dont know if that part of his game will develop. To me its the difference between being a 3&D specialist, and a complete player.

YES - I’ve made similar posts in terms of Quentin’s complete lack of a mid-range jump shot —- no idea how such a skilled player can’t take 1 or 2 dribbles and knock down a few mid-range shots. Also like you said - everything is rushed with Quentin - his catch and shoots are rushed and when he puts the ball down going to the rim he predetermines whether he’s shooting a layup or passing.

If we could get the kid to relax, slow down a second, handle more….shoot some mid range he’s just a perfect kid who I love.

Just not sure he will calm down at some point.

Think of it from a development perspective instead of a fan’s perspective of wanting and expecting to watch the perfect player.

Grimes has about a year and a half a NBA experience, ~120 games with time missed with injury. And the Knicks have obviously asked him to concentrate on defense as his #1 priority.

After that, they’ve asked him to be a spacer. The Knicks barely have any of those guys on the team, he IQ and Brunson are the only high volume spacers on the team and the rest of the guys - especially volume guys like Randle and RJ - are guys that like to get to the rim, along with Brunson.

That’s the basic model for their team. Space some with PnR with a few guys like Grimes, IQ who hold defenders at the edges.

After that, you don’t develop a young player by overloading them. You ask them to do a number of things at a high level over and over and against enough of the league until they get it, especially where to be when running PnR and all the counters when things get mucked up. That’s what his ask was: learn to defend the best players in the league on one end of court and be a spacer on the other end with a few movement things.

Learn to get all the way to rim first. Either get to the rim or make the pass because you are going to the rim after breaking down your guy.

You could also tell that Grimes hit a wall around the all-star break too. It’s a natural thing given how much he was asked to do on defense.

Ask him to do too many things and you overload an already overloaded player. I’d expect a natural progression to the mid range over the next years.

You're conflating Grimes lack of a midrange game, floater, the unwillingness to drive from the top of the key, with wanting a "perfect player".

Perfect players never miss, or make a mistake. Complete players have the necessary skillset to not only start, but give their team the best chance to win.

A midrange game is a must have for a starter. How many starting SGs cant hit a floater, or attempt a mid range jumper on a regular basis? Cant say for sure, but not many. Most shooting guards already have that skill when they enter the league. They might neeed to improve on that aspect of their game, but its not practically non-existent as it is with Grimes.

We arent talking about a rookie here. We're talking about a player who is spending his summers training with Penny Hardaway. I get patience, I dont get the belief that this part of his game is guaranteed to develop, or pointing out Grimes defense as an excuse for a lack of development of a midrange game. They arent mutually exclusive.

Right. You have zero clue on how develop is structured and conflate not seeing with not having while completely ignoring the realities of the team makeup and what roles the players in them are asked to do.

In a good developer environment you build things one step at a time. In his first year, Grimes barely went to rim, now he gets there at a good clip in his second year. You ask guys to do things in their wheelhouse that fits what other guys are also doing.

But good on you to point out the obvious of Grimes not being in his first year. Because second year players should always already show that they can do things from all areas on the court.

It’s a nonsensical and frivolous expectation quite frankly. Like who cares.

“Grimes, you should shoot the analytically worst type of shot they track in the NBA, the one you may not have yet polished, but do it anyway because you are a starting shooting guard and because ????”. Because what?

Wow Martin, you really don't like being challenged do you?

"good developer environment? WTF? So if a coach told a player that they needed to work on their midrange game, more consistent from 3. The proper answer for the player to give the coach would be "OK, but one thing at a time, I want to be in a proper developer environment?" Are you kidding me? We arent talking about middle schoolers, Grimes is a professional.

“Grimes, you should shoot the analytically worst type of shot they track in the NBA, the one you may not have yet polished, but do it anyway because you are a starting shooting guard and because ????”. Because what?

Shouldnt have to explain to you that games, conferences, Championships, have been won by "the worst type of shot they track in the NBA". We arent talking about some Meadowlark Lemon half court hook shot. We are talking about finding a space in mid court to get a shot off when there is nothing else available, no clear path to the basket. Or when Grimes 3pters arent falling. Like that long stretch when he wasnt just the worst shooting starter in the league, but also trailed some bench players.

You know what happens then Martin? Grimes stops shooting, he disappears. Thats when as LivingLegend mentioned, its essential to be able to dribble a couple of steps closer and knock down a 2. Ive seen Grimes do it.

Most players dont get past the holes in their game in practice when it doesnt count, and vs. teammates. They do it under the lights when it matters. You dont wait for perfection. You take the midrange, the floater, when they give it to you. Yes there will be misses, but thats what developing a player is all about. Worst thing that will happen is that Grimes will miss some shots just like he did from 3, but he'll be closer to getting his shot down. Not in practice when there is no pressure.

As for what's best for the team, Grimes taking more midrange shots will force the defense to respond. They dont have to if our starting SG wont go to an empty spot on the court and shoot. Otherwise Grimes is too predictable.

GustavBahler wrote:Wow Martin, you really don't like being challenged do you?

Challenged? You don’t even have a worthwhile point, I’m just highlighting it.