Knicks · Why did we trade Obi Toppin ? (page 13)

Last question I swear- who is giving up a first for Obi?

I already know the answer.

KnickDanger wrote:Last question I swear- who is giving up a first for Obi?

I already know the answer.

I don’t know, which teams did you talk to? Obi Toppin was, and still is a player who gives you instant offense off the bench and who can spot start. I guess according to you that has zero value in the NBA

Did we not get two 2nd round picks? $6.8mm trade exeption.
NOt a haul by any measure but it was not zero.

foosballnick wrote:

Rookie wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Rookie wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight is great.
I saw we won 50 games. Team constructions are wins and losses. Maybe we lost with Obi, but we gained elsewhere and had a great season.
Obi was not a great fit for this team.
Why would the FO trade him for less than value? Thats what the implications are. That they screwed up.
Of course Leons brilliance is not perfect.
If they could have gotten more, why didn't they?

Family first. CAA gift wrapped him to the location of his choice. The same reason we drafted him, he was Leon’s son’s client at CAA. Their slogan is Family First not team first

One can bend that CAA narrative in so many ways. Very useful.
Are you aware of any other offers knicks had for OBI to validity your point of contention?
Do you think OG gives knicks a discount because Sam is Leons kid? You think OG would not fire his ass if he felt he was being played?
Or does everyone walk away happy?
We just won 50 games without OBI. Nobody was talking about him until this series and we down Randle and Bojan.

We have zero depth which is hurting us now. That is 100% on the FO that the back of our rotation are ALL G league scrubs. When is the last time we drafted in the 1st round despite having a surplus of FRP’s. Fine, you move on from Obi just get an asset back. He is definitely not a bust. He is a productive bench player. Get equal value back. You know, like a productive young bench player in return

Pretty sure this is an emotional overstatement. Our roster depth, when healthy, is 13 deep. Perhaps the deepest roster in the league. Robinson, Randle, Bogs all getting injured stinks.

Regarding our use of picks, I don't have complaints. We traded Cam and a pick for Josh Hart. No pick that year. Josh Hart is your pick. Now, we arguably should have had a draft pick that draft but the Mavs were cute and messed us up. You might say that we owed them one for the Brunson signing. So hard to complain. Do I wish we drafted Jalen Williams or Tari Eason with our other possible picks. Yes. I do. But those three protected picks have yet to convey so its hard to tell whether we win or lose on that trade. I'd bet that the team thought they could buy back in from Houston but weren't able to finish a deal.

Regarding Toppin, we still have those seconds and the TPE. Let's see how that plays out. But I don't think Toppin's value was getting higher and he was already publicly on record for his comments about Thibs. Best for both sides to move on there, imo. Hali is really a good PG for him. Sucks for him that they traded for Siakam.

But, I don't think its worth second guessing the Toppin trade because 3 of our rotation players are injured. They could have used any of their picks and the TPE to replace Toppin but chose not to. Such is life.

Further, if they picked Jalen Williams in the 2022 draft, they would not have had the cap space to sign iHart or to increase their bid for Brunson if it became a bidding war. So, even that is a harshly critical review of what actually happened.

Would you please stop making sense

Sorry but what makes sense? Having to purge the contracts of broke down Kemba Walker, Nerlens Noel, Alec Burks and Derick Rose. I forget who we were bidding against when we made those deals. Can you please remind me? There must of need a fairly large amount of teams eager to throw 18M at Evan Fournier except I forget who those teams were

Are you trying to pin contracts from the Scott Perry era on Leon Rose? I don't get your point.

Sounds like you just wish we had another functional PF on the roster (though you seem to have no respect for Achiuwa). It's fair to want another PF, but to drag through all historical moves to get there is illogical.

Trading out of 2022 resulted in Brunson and iHart.
Trading out of 2023 resulted in jHart.

Achiuwa, Burks, Sims and Milton are all capable players. Thibs trusts other players more, but I think there is a world in which we are better with Achiuwa at Center for guys like Myles Turner and Kristaps Porzingis than a hurting Mitch Robinson.

I am not fond of Burks play since he got here. Picked up a ton of bad habits in Detroit. I think the Knicks had to believe they were getting the guy we traded to Detroit back.

Feel like we should table any further argument until after the NBA finals. I figure once we win it all, these discussions will be meaningless.

On March 2, 2020, Rose was named president of the New York Knicks of the National Basketball Association (NBA).

New York Knicks: Offseason Summary 2020
Player Transaction
Obi Toppin Draft (8th)
Immanuel Quickley Draft (25th)
Austin Rivers Free Agency (HOU)
Alec Burks Free Agency (PHI)
Nerlens Noel Free Agency (OKC)

Knicks Roster Subtractions
Player Transaction
Bobby Portis Free Agency (MIL)
Taj Gibson Free Agency
Wayne Ellington Free Agency (DET)
Maurice Harkless Free Agency (MIA)
Damyean Dotson Free Agency (CLE)
Isaiah Hicks Free Agency (INTL)

New York Knicks 2021
Evan Fournier: Four years, $73MM. ...
Derrick Rose: Three years, $43.56MM. ...
Alec Burks: Three years, $30.04MM. ...
Nerlens Noel: Three years, $27.72MM. ...
Kemba Walker: Two years, $17.89MM. ...
Taj Gibson: Two years, $10.07MM. ...
Wayne Selden: One year, minimum salary. ...
Luka Samanic: Two-way contract.

TI'm a bit unclear on your point. In the middle of a 2nd round playoff appearance (2 years in a row - first time in ~25 years) are you going back to moves made 3-4 years ago to try and prove the FO's incompetency?

Adding Brunson, iHart, Hart, DiVincenzo and OG were all boss moves. 2020-21 and 2021-22 were pretty bad. Short answer is I think we are still paying for the mistakes of the first two years. We have a great core but the fringes of the roster are pretty barren. Oh well. Onward and upward.

Every GM/FO makes mistakes.....it's how you recover or learn those mistakes that often defines success. Perhaps you can make it a bit clearer as I'm not sure how decisions made 3+ years ago impacted the fringes of the Knicks current roster.

Players in current rotation (7) - Brunson, DDV, OG, JHart, IHart, Deuce, Precious

Injured Players (3) - Randle, Mitch, Bogs

Players out of rotation (5) - Sims, Burks, Shake, Diakite, Jeffries

Players on GLeague Shuttle (3) - Brown, J Toppin, Washington

Taking injury into account - Knicks have 10 Strong Rotational players - one that could compete for the ECF and even a Title.

The next 3 have all been NBA Level Contributors- Sims, Burks and Shake

That's 13.

Are you saying that moves made in 2020-2021 should have been targeted to build the bench strength of the roster for positions 11-15 on the bench as well as 2 Way contracts? Not sure - but that would not seem to be a logical way to construct a winning roster. Roster depth for positions 11-15 only seems to be an issue because of how successful the team has been in spite of injury.
Generally teams that make it this far into the playoffs do not have injuries to their starters / Top 10 rotation to the extent the Knicks have had.

Forgot to add that if we weren’t using 1st rd picks to salary dump bad contracts we might have drafted a developmental rotation player or 2.

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Last question I swear- who is giving up a first for Obi?

I already know the answer.

I don’t know, which teams did you talk to? Obi Toppin was, and still is a player who gives you instant offense off the bench and who can spot start. I guess according to you that has zero value in the NBA

I spoke to each team's FO and they all laughed then hung up when I offered Obi for a #1.

KnickDanger wrote:

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Last question I swear- who is giving up a first for Obi?

I already know the answer.

I don’t know, which teams did you talk to? Obi Toppin was, and still is a player who gives you instant offense off the bench and who can spot start. I guess according to you that has zero value in the NBA

I spoke to each team's FO and they all laughed then hung up when I offered Obi for a #1.

That’s interesting because it seemed like your priority at the time was to trade him into salary cap space with the Oacers at the top of Obi’s destination list Maybe you are misremembering

Rookie wrote:
Where this all started was me saying we should have gotten an asset back for Obi. We got zero. No young rotation player in return. No usable draft pick. A future 1st, or even 2 unprotected 2nds. It was a salary dump and preferential treatment to a CAA client to deliver him to the team of his choice. Family before team

Situationally the Knicks did not have much leverage in a trade. Obi had voiced his displeasure and was also not playing significant minutes nor contributing significant output for the Knicks. He did not fit the Knicks offense or defensive schemes. He also has some skillset gaps - on Offense - he is mostly a slasher, relying mostly on his athleticism and an uptempo offense. On defense - not big/bulky enough to be an impactful PF and not agile enough to guard on the wing.

If I know all this as a fan - you can be sure that NBA Front Offices, Agents etc. know much more.

Given all that there would be only a few options for the Knicks FO.

Option 1 - Retain Obi and keep things as they were. Did not seem viable as he was unhappy and likely this would also make Thibs unhappy.

Option 2 - Retain Obi and give him more minutes to showcase in order to build his trade value. Given where the Knicks wanted to get to in terms of playoffs etc - this did not seem like a viable option.

Option 3 - Trade him at then market value - which because of reasons stated was likely lukewarm at best. We all tend to overvalue our own team's players - but 2 Seconds and a Trade exception seems about right in return for Obi given the situation.

At best, he's a starter on a bad team or a no-defense energizer bunny backup and spot up 3 point shooter on a good team. To your point on getting a rotational player in return. My guess is that you would be looking at a guy who the other team wanted to dump as well. No team is trading a promising young rotational player for a 25-26 Year old tweener who had not significantly proven himself.

foosballnick wrote:

Rookie wrote:
Where this all started was me saying we should have gotten an asset back for Obi. We got zero. No young rotation player in return. No usable draft pick. A future 1st, or even 2 unprotected 2nds. It was a salary dump and preferential treatment to a CAA client to deliver him to the team of his choice. Family before team

Situationally the Knicks did not have much leverage in a trade. Obi had voiced his displeasure and was also not playing significant minutes nor contributing significant output for the Knicks. He did not fit the Knicks offense or defensive schemes. He also has some skillset gaps - on Offense - he is mostly a slasher, relying mostly on his athleticism and an uptempo offense. On defense - not big/bulky enough to be an impactful PF and not agile enough to guard on the wing.

If I know all this as a fan - you can be sure that NBA Front Offices, Agents etc. know much more.

Given all that there would be only a few options for the Knicks FO.

Option 1 - Retain Obi and keep things as they were. Did not seem viable as he was unhappy and likely this would also make Thibs unhappy.

Option 2 - Retain Obi and give him more minutes to showcase in order to build his trade value. Given where the Knicks wanted to get to in terms of playoffs etc - this did not seem like a viable option.

Option 3 - Trade him at then market value - which because of reasons stated was likely lukewarm at best. We all tend to overvalue our own team's players - but 2 Seconds and a Trade exception seems about right in return for Obi given the situation.

At best, he's a starter on a bad team or a no-defense energizer bunny backup and spot up 3 point shooter on a good team. To your point on getting a rotational player in return. My guess is that you would be looking at a guy who the other team wanted to dump as well. No team is trading a promising young rotational player for a 25-26 Year old tweener who had not significantly proven himself.

Nothing you bring up has anything to do with his stats which are pretty good. How do you explain away his productive numbers? I’m not saying anything you said is off, but he passes the bar for contributing nba level player. Obi is an unrestricted FA so his value and lack of interest by 29 nba franchises is about to be tested. By you description he’s probably playing in the euroleague next season because he has no value as an nba player

I'm sure a team will be more than happy to sign Toppin for the right price.

His offensive game has really come along with the Pacers. Finisher, high percentage 3pt shooter, high 70s% Ft shooter. There are definitely things he does very well.

On the other hand, he's no more fluid on D than when he left us - he's no 2-way player. So he needs to be really great on offense to offset his meh defensive upside. Toppin has decent enough ball handling skills to ocasionally take his man off the dribble, but he hasn't really shown the consistent ability to score in isolation or make passing plays.

I could be wrong, but I think Obi will likely have a hard time scoring a contract that pays $5m/yr - and perhaps command half that - 2yr/$5m.

I think a reasonable comparison is what Christian Wood got on his most recent deal - 2yr/$5.7m. Wood is an interesting case - he basically averaged ~20ppg/10rpg over two season in Houston, and managed a 3yr/$40 deal a few years ago, before the league figured advanced stats and realized he was a minus on the court.

That's sort of the case why we only were able to get 2 2nd rounders for him. It's not that he's bad, but he's sort of a dime a dozen filler tweener big man with no defensive position.

Knicks got the defensive version of Obi in Precious, and Precious is more the mold of what the team can use long term.

He is on a team that utilizes him well. Kind of like Precious who we don't call on to score but is effective in other ways.
Why we trade Obi? We were not going to extend him and thats what the market called for. Maybe we did not get full value but we did good by him. WE signed DDV perhaps with a reputation we take care of players most of the time. EF was kind of trapped but it was his contract that made it problematic for the team, but lucrative for him.

Rookie wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Rookie wrote:
Where this all started was me saying we should have gotten an asset back for Obi. We got zero. No young rotation player in return. No usable draft pick. A future 1st, or even 2 unprotected 2nds. It was a salary dump and preferential treatment to a CAA client to deliver him to the team of his choice. Family before team

Situationally the Knicks did not have much leverage in a trade. Obi had voiced his displeasure and was also not playing significant minutes nor contributing significant output for the Knicks. He did not fit the Knicks offense or defensive schemes. He also has some skillset gaps - on Offense - he is mostly a slasher, relying mostly on his athleticism and an uptempo offense. On defense - not big/bulky enough to be an impactful PF and not agile enough to guard on the wing.

If I know all this as a fan - you can be sure that NBA Front Offices, Agents etc. know much more.

Given all that there would be only a few options for the Knicks FO.

Option 1 - Retain Obi and keep things as they were. Did not seem viable as he was unhappy and likely this would also make Thibs unhappy.

Option 2 - Retain Obi and give him more minutes to showcase in order to build his trade value. Given where the Knicks wanted to get to in terms of playoffs etc - this did not seem like a viable option.

Option 3 - Trade him at then market value - which because of reasons stated was likely lukewarm at best. We all tend to overvalue our own team's players - but 2 Seconds and a Trade exception seems about right in return for Obi given the situation.

At best, he's a starter on a bad team or a no-defense energizer bunny backup and spot up 3 point shooter on a good team. To your point on getting a rotational player in return. My guess is that you would be looking at a guy who the other team wanted to dump as well. No team is trading a promising young rotational player for a 25-26 Year old tweener who had not significantly proven himself.

Nothing you bring up has anything to do with his stats which are pretty good. How do you explain away his productive numbers? I’m not saying anything you said is off, but he passes the bar for contributing nba level player. Obi is an unrestricted FA so his value and lack of interest by 29 nba franchises is about to be tested. By you description he’s probably playing in the euroleague next season because he has no value as an nba player

Not really what I said at all. He is definitely an NBA player.

What I portrayed was the situation AT THE TIME leading up to the Knicks trading Obi. You appear to be bringing his performance with the Pacers into play with hindsight after the fact. You wanted/were expecting a higher return for Obi, but situationally given the issues I laid out, it was unlikely that his trade value was at a maximum at that point.

Fast forward with the Pacers. He is in a situation where he apparently is better suited. Faster pace where he can both slash and release more with less focus on D. He was not as good of a fit for the Knicks. Again, with the benefit of hindsight, not the best draft pick for the Front Office given the coach and team focus on D. But at the time he was drafted, there were questions about Randle and potentially replacing him. Of course Randle took off after that and Obi never really caught on here.

Maybe last nights game where he was invisible a reminder to some of Obi's game with knicks?
If obi is not on it, does he rebound and play defense? You know, the thing that Thibs wants from players when not scoring.
I like the kid. We moved on. He found a role. They traded for Siakim an the lost the starting job.
He had a opportunity to seal it and did not? or they found former Allstar at a good price?

Nalod wrote:Maybe last nights game where he was invisible a reminder to some of Obi's game with knicks?
If obi is not on it, does he rebound and play defense? You know, the thing that Thibs wants from players when not scoring.
I like the kid. We moved on. He found a role. They traded for Siakim an the lost the starting job.
He had a opportunity to seal it and did not? or they found former Allstar at a good price?

I mean he lost the starting job wayyy before they traded for Siakam. Think he lost it like 15 games into the season.

The idea that the Obi trade along with moves from two to three years ago negatively impacted the depth of a team in the second round of the playoffs and up 2 - 1….What are we seeing if not incredible depth with three starters and an important rotation player out? And are you playing Obi ahead of Precious?

Come on.

KnickDanger wrote:The idea that the Obi trade along with moves from two to three years ago negatively impacted the depth of a team in the second round of the playoffs and up 2 - 1….What are we seeing if not incredible depth with three starters and an important rotation player out? And are you playing Obi ahead of Precious?

Come on.

One game is a pretty small sample size by any standard. Still, nobody gives a fuck about Obi. He wanted to be gone, and he’s not a Knick anymore. Precious is a better fit on this team. The argument was and is about trading him for nothing. If you’re saying he had no value, then you didn’t try hard enough to find equal value return. If this were a business and you give your assets away for nothing it’s a bad business model. I also don’t like the CAa family first campaign with us tied so closely with caa. I want Knicks first. Team first. I don’t like all of the agent power positioning and don’t want it affecting our team. Family first just teams of wannabe mafia power bullshit.

Team first Knicks first

Rookie wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:The idea that the Obi trade along with moves from two to three years ago negatively impacted the depth of a team in the second round of the playoffs and up 2 - 1….What are we seeing if not incredible depth with three starters and an important rotation player out? And are you playing Obi ahead of Precious?

Come on.

One game is a pretty small sample size by any standard. Still, nobody gives a fuck about Obi. He wanted to be gone, and he’s not a Knick anymore. Precious is a better fit on this team. The argument was and is about trading him for nothing. If you’re saying he had no value, then you didn’t try hard enough to find equal value return. If this were a business and you give your assets away for nothing it’s a bad business model. I also don’t like the CAa family first campaign with us tied so closely with caa. I want Knicks first. Team first. I don’t like all of the agent power positioning and don’t want it affecting our team. Family first just teams of wannabe mafia power bullshit.

Team first Knicks first

We are in complete agreement there sir!

KnickDanger wrote:The idea that the Obi trade along with moves from two to three years ago negatively impacted the depth of a team in the second round of the playoffs and up 2 - 1….What are we seeing if not incredible depth with three starters and an important rotation player out? And are you playing Obi ahead of Precious?

Come on.

We lost Randle in January. Obviously we could have used Toppin on the roster

Philc1 wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:The idea that the Obi trade along with moves from two to three years ago negatively impacted the depth of a team in the second round of the playoffs and up 2 - 1….What are we seeing if not incredible depth with three starters and an important rotation player out? And are you playing Obi ahead of Precious?

Come on.

We lost Randle in January. Obviously we could have used Toppin on the roster

Surely would have taken us to the finals

anyone still wondering why he's not here?

martin wrote:Knicks got the defensive version of Obi in Precious, and Precious is more the mold of what the team can use long term.

Precious looks like his shooting confidence is destroyed. Needs a pick me up. I think he is better than he is shooting lately but needs to shut down the part of his brain that is interfering. He's a big bear with big fucking claws. Needs to act like it.