Knicks · Mistake to have jHart backup PF (page 5)
martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:SergioNYK wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Article in the Post saying IHart and Sims have both been working out at the 4 as well as the 5 and Thibs saying they “play effectively together.” And talks about playing them against certain lineups.Josh Hart and Jericho Sims may have some company backing up Julius Randle at power forward.Center Isaiah Hartenstein is an option as well, coach Tom Thibodeau said after Wednesday’s practice.
Both Sims and Hartenstein have been working out at both the power-forward and center spots, according to the coach.
“[Hartenstein] and Jericho, they play very effectively together. And oftentimes, I’ll go more by how they’re being defended, who do they have their 4 on, who do they have their 5 on?” Thibodeau said.
Hartenstein played a lot of 4 growing up, so he is at least somewhat used to it.
“I think when me and Jericho are on the court, they’ll probably want me to be in the passing game so I’ll be more [playing the 5] that way I can facilitate,” Hartenstein said. “But then just in pick-and-roll stuff, just trying to space out the court, read what they’re doing and just make everyone’s life easier.”
Want to see Hartenstein launch up some more threes like he did with the Clippers.
Been surprised that its been the weakest part of his game, when that was iHart's calling card with the Clips.
Agree that Hartenstein getting back his 3 would create spacing issues for the other team.
So just a bit of context. He shot exactly 30 3 points across the whole year with the Clips. Made 14. Realistically, he only shot them consistently across 10 games at the end of the season. Perhaps Garbage games.
For a contextanomicon, iHart's 3pt shooting was what most of the coverage was about when he got signed, with a 46% avg from 3. It may have been overselling (looks that way) but that was his calling card when the deal was made. That and the occasional nifty pass to a cutter.
I was surprised like some other Knicks fan that Hartenstein's calling card as a Knick has been a tough, scrappy, blue collar player, who is happy to mix it up under the rim. We needed that just as much, if not more than a mostly 3pt shooting big.
Hartenstein starts hitting the timely 3, that would be gravy.
GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:SergioNYK wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Article in the Post saying IHart and Sims have both been working out at the 4 as well as the 5 and Thibs saying they “play effectively together.” And talks about playing them against certain lineups.Josh Hart and Jericho Sims may have some company backing up Julius Randle at power forward.Center Isaiah Hartenstein is an option as well, coach Tom Thibodeau said after Wednesday’s practice.
Both Sims and Hartenstein have been working out at both the power-forward and center spots, according to the coach.
“[Hartenstein] and Jericho, they play very effectively together. And oftentimes, I’ll go more by how they’re being defended, who do they have their 4 on, who do they have their 5 on?” Thibodeau said.
Hartenstein played a lot of 4 growing up, so he is at least somewhat used to it.
“I think when me and Jericho are on the court, they’ll probably want me to be in the passing game so I’ll be more [playing the 5] that way I can facilitate,” Hartenstein said. “But then just in pick-and-roll stuff, just trying to space out the court, read what they’re doing and just make everyone’s life easier.”
Want to see Hartenstein launch up some more threes like he did with the Clippers.
Been surprised that its been the weakest part of his game, when that was iHart's calling card with the Clips.
Agree that Hartenstein getting back his 3 would create spacing issues for the other team.
So just a bit of context. He shot exactly 30 3 points across the whole year with the Clips. Made 14. Realistically, he only shot them consistently across 10 games at the end of the season. Perhaps Garbage games.
For a contextanomicon, iHart's 3pt shooting was what most of the coverage was about when he got signed, with a 46% avg from 3. It may have been overselling (looks that way) but that was his calling card when the deal was made. That and the occasional nifty pass to a cutter.
I was surprised like some other Knicks fan that Hartenstein's calling card as a Knick has been a tough, scrappy, blue collar player, who is happy to mix it up under the rim. We needed that just as much, if not more than a mostly 3pt shooting big.
Hartenstein starts hitting the timely 3, that would be gravy.
Maybe you just didn’t read it right. His 3point shooting has been noted repeatedly by lots of people. And it’s an easy lookup if you care to pay attention to those things.
martin wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:martin wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:martin wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:martin wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:martin wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:DLeethal wrote:I don't think it's a mistake at all. Backup bigs is a position almost every team goes small nowadays. Hart will be fine.Ok but what if he goes down ? Or RJ or Julius ? Or in some games a big PF simply manhandles Hart for 14 minutes ? A well constructed team is prepared for potential mismatches and injury. We are prepared for such contingency at center, wing, and guard. Sims is not it at PF is Roby it or Knight ? Simms played and gave us a pathetic jump shot.
The Knicks are hard capped this year and also want to make a trade while sitting right under the first apron.
You don't willy-nilly with the backup PF position when you have larger goals in mind.
Going willy nilly with the PF position is what currently exists.
Only in your mind.
Question: What do you think is more important to the FO, finding/signing a backup PF (who, at this current time has zero chance of getting minutes) or putting the team in the best position for a trade?
And BTW, the same scrap backup PF's that are on the market today are the same level of backup PF's they can grab any time over the next months. There is literal no rush until they need to address that situation, if they even ever need to.
Alpha1971, do you understand the implications of the hard cap and first apron have on a team like the Knicks?
You saw Simms at PF? Just imagine Hart misses a few games or any of our bigs and he has to play the 4 for a week. No, it's not only me. Roster construction is poor. Let's see if the correct it. Like I said they have contracts, picks, and TPE to get it done.
Stay ignorant, seems like a choice.
Yo Martin I disagree with you but I have not been disrespectful.
I am being factual here. I keep presenting you with some pretty clear indicators and you willfully blow past them.
I ask you direct questions and you ignore them.
You aren't even interested in learning or getting information that is pertinent to your topic at hand when directly presented with them.
This is what willful ignorance looks like.
You keep saying that I am wrong about needing a vet PF for the bench. Other front offices have made their teams better creatively over the off-season. I am not going to argue with you for the sake of argument. No need to argue when the facts are on the court for everyone to see. Sure the team sees it. Sure they are being patient just hope the patience doesn't cost us seedng due to lost games Incase or injury. Sure every team would lose it any injury hits a top player but going into a season with a PF who has ankle surgery with a back up at 6'4"", is bad construction. Sometimes this front office is too myopic.
Several teams deploy small lineups successfully. Having JHart, who can rebound, in a small lineup should make our small lineup a good candidate for success. Think many will be surprised by it.
We have Sims as an insurance policy if we need him against bigger second units or someone gets hurt.Long term, think we can all agree the FO does not feel this is a finished product.
I think most would agree that GS and Miami are 2 team that are well regarded around the league. Each definitely have had their "down" years.
But I think we all could agree that they are both capable of competing at a high level in recent years.
Neither team really has important rotation players over 6'9".
Thr average height of players in the NBA is 6.67 feet. Given the constant need for players to rotate on defense and the rare slow down post up scheme to defend in todays NBA, there is a bigger chance that a taller PF will be tasked to rotate quickly and have to cover a smaller faster player than he.
Additionally the popularity of spacers at the PF spot makes it easier for smaller PF to be able to defend them. Would prefer Josh Hart defending let's say an Obi Toppin than a slower taller PF having to defend him.
HofstraBBall wrote:martin wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:martin wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:martin wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:martin wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:martin wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:DLeethal wrote:I don't think it's a mistake at all. Backup bigs is a position almost every team goes small nowadays. Hart will be fine.Ok but what if he goes down ? Or RJ or Julius ? Or in some games a big PF simply manhandles Hart for 14 minutes ? A well constructed team is prepared for potential mismatches and injury. We are prepared for such contingency at center, wing, and guard. Sims is not it at PF is Roby it or Knight ? Simms played and gave us a pathetic jump shot.
The Knicks are hard capped this year and also want to make a trade while sitting right under the first apron.
You don't willy-nilly with the backup PF position when you have larger goals in mind.
Going willy nilly with the PF position is what currently exists.
Only in your mind.
Question: What do you think is more important to the FO, finding/signing a backup PF (who, at this current time has zero chance of getting minutes) or putting the team in the best position for a trade?
And BTW, the same scrap backup PF's that are on the market today are the same level of backup PF's they can grab any time over the next months. There is literal no rush until they need to address that situation, if they even ever need to.
Alpha1971, do you understand the implications of the hard cap and first apron have on a team like the Knicks?
You saw Simms at PF? Just imagine Hart misses a few games or any of our bigs and he has to play the 4 for a week. No, it's not only me. Roster construction is poor. Let's see if the correct it. Like I said they have contracts, picks, and TPE to get it done.
Stay ignorant, seems like a choice.
Yo Martin I disagree with you but I have not been disrespectful.
I am being factual here. I keep presenting you with some pretty clear indicators and you willfully blow past them.
I ask you direct questions and you ignore them.
You aren't even interested in learning or getting information that is pertinent to your topic at hand when directly presented with them.
This is what willful ignorance looks like.
You keep saying that I am wrong about needing a vet PF for the bench. Other front offices have made their teams better creatively over the off-season. I am not going to argue with you for the sake of argument. No need to argue when the facts are on the court for everyone to see. Sure the team sees it. Sure they are being patient just hope the patience doesn't cost us seedng due to lost games Incase or injury. Sure every team would lose it any injury hits a top player but going into a season with a PF who has ankle surgery with a back up at 6'4"", is bad construction. Sometimes this front office is too myopic.
Several teams deploy small lineups successfully. Having JHart, who can rebound, in a small lineup should make our small lineup a good candidate for success. Think many will be surprised by it.
We have Sims as an insurance policy if we need him against bigger second units or someone gets hurt.Long term, think we can all agree the FO does not feel this is a finished product.
I think most would agree that GS and Miami are 2 team that are well regarded around the league. Each definitely have had their "down" years.
But I think we all could agree that they are both capable of competing at a high level in recent years.
Neither team really has important rotation players over 6'9".
Thr average height of players in the NBA is 6.67 feet. Given the constant need for players to rotate on defense and the rare slow down post up scheme to defend in todays NBA, there is a bigger chance that a taller PF will be tasked to rotate quickly and have to cover a smaller faster player than he.
Additionally the popularity of spacers at the PF spot makes it easier for smaller PF to be able to defend them. Would prefer Josh Hart defending let's say an Obi Toppin than a slower taller PF having to defend him.
Yeah, the obvious advantages of what someone like Josh Hart would gain on the other end seem to be overlooked in this entire space
martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:SergioNYK wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Article in the Post saying IHart and Sims have both been working out at the 4 as well as the 5 and Thibs saying they “play effectively together.” And talks about playing them against certain lineups.Josh Hart and Jericho Sims may have some company backing up Julius Randle at power forward.Center Isaiah Hartenstein is an option as well, coach Tom Thibodeau said after Wednesday’s practice.
Both Sims and Hartenstein have been working out at both the power-forward and center spots, according to the coach.
“[Hartenstein] and Jericho, they play very effectively together. And oftentimes, I’ll go more by how they’re being defended, who do they have their 4 on, who do they have their 5 on?” Thibodeau said.
Hartenstein played a lot of 4 growing up, so he is at least somewhat used to it.
“I think when me and Jericho are on the court, they’ll probably want me to be in the passing game so I’ll be more [playing the 5] that way I can facilitate,” Hartenstein said. “But then just in pick-and-roll stuff, just trying to space out the court, read what they’re doing and just make everyone’s life easier.”
Want to see Hartenstein launch up some more threes like he did with the Clippers.
Been surprised that its been the weakest part of his game, when that was iHart's calling card with the Clips.
Agree that Hartenstein getting back his 3 would create spacing issues for the other team.
So just a bit of context. He shot exactly 30 3 points across the whole year with the Clips. Made 14. Realistically, he only shot them consistently across 10 games at the end of the season. Perhaps Garbage games.
For a contextanomicon, iHart's 3pt shooting was what most of the coverage was about when he got signed, with a 46% avg from 3. It may have been overselling (looks that way) but that was his calling card when the deal was made. That and the occasional nifty pass to a cutter.
I was surprised like some other Knicks fan that Hartenstein's calling card as a Knick has been a tough, scrappy, blue collar player, who is happy to mix it up under the rim. We needed that just as much, if not more than a mostly 3pt shooting big.
Hartenstein starts hitting the timely 3, that would be gravy.
Maybe you just didn’t read it right. His 3point shooting has been noted repeatedly by lots of people. And it’s an easy lookup if you care to pay attention to those things.
Ok "tough guy"
GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:SergioNYK wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Article in the Post saying IHart and Sims have both been working out at the 4 as well as the 5 and Thibs saying they “play effectively together.” And talks about playing them against certain lineups.Josh Hart and Jericho Sims may have some company backing up Julius Randle at power forward.Center Isaiah Hartenstein is an option as well, coach Tom Thibodeau said after Wednesday’s practice.
Both Sims and Hartenstein have been working out at both the power-forward and center spots, according to the coach.
“[Hartenstein] and Jericho, they play very effectively together. And oftentimes, I’ll go more by how they’re being defended, who do they have their 4 on, who do they have their 5 on?” Thibodeau said.
Hartenstein played a lot of 4 growing up, so he is at least somewhat used to it.
“I think when me and Jericho are on the court, they’ll probably want me to be in the passing game so I’ll be more [playing the 5] that way I can facilitate,” Hartenstein said. “But then just in pick-and-roll stuff, just trying to space out the court, read what they’re doing and just make everyone’s life easier.”
Want to see Hartenstein launch up some more threes like he did with the Clippers.
Been surprised that its been the weakest part of his game, when that was iHart's calling card with the Clips.
Agree that Hartenstein getting back his 3 would create spacing issues for the other team.
So just a bit of context. He shot exactly 30 3 points across the whole year with the Clips. Made 14. Realistically, he only shot them consistently across 10 games at the end of the season. Perhaps Garbage games.
For a contextanomicon, iHart's 3pt shooting was what most of the coverage was about when he got signed, with a 46% avg from 3. It may have been overselling (looks that way) but that was his calling card when the deal was made. That and the occasional nifty pass to a cutter.
I was surprised like some other Knicks fan that Hartenstein's calling card as a Knick has been a tough, scrappy, blue collar player, who is happy to mix it up under the rim. We needed that just as much, if not more than a mostly 3pt shooting big.
Hartenstein starts hitting the timely 3, that would be gravy.
Maybe you just didn’t read it right. His 3point shooting has been noted repeatedly by lots of people. And it’s an easy lookup if you care to pay attention to those things.
Ok "tough guy"
Lmao yall better leave Martin alone. He’s in mid season form.
blkexec wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:SergioNYK wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Article in the Post saying IHart and Sims have both been working out at the 4 as well as the 5 and Thibs saying they “play effectively together.” And talks about playing them against certain lineups.Josh Hart and Jericho Sims may have some company backing up Julius Randle at power forward.Center Isaiah Hartenstein is an option as well, coach Tom Thibodeau said after Wednesday’s practice.
Both Sims and Hartenstein have been working out at both the power-forward and center spots, according to the coach.
“[Hartenstein] and Jericho, they play very effectively together. And oftentimes, I’ll go more by how they’re being defended, who do they have their 4 on, who do they have their 5 on?” Thibodeau said.
Hartenstein played a lot of 4 growing up, so he is at least somewhat used to it.
“I think when me and Jericho are on the court, they’ll probably want me to be in the passing game so I’ll be more [playing the 5] that way I can facilitate,” Hartenstein said. “But then just in pick-and-roll stuff, just trying to space out the court, read what they’re doing and just make everyone’s life easier.”
Want to see Hartenstein launch up some more threes like he did with the Clippers.
Been surprised that its been the weakest part of his game, when that was iHart's calling card with the Clips.
Agree that Hartenstein getting back his 3 would create spacing issues for the other team.
So just a bit of context. He shot exactly 30 3 points across the whole year with the Clips. Made 14. Realistically, he only shot them consistently across 10 games at the end of the season. Perhaps Garbage games.
For a contextanomicon, iHart's 3pt shooting was what most of the coverage was about when he got signed, with a 46% avg from 3. It may have been overselling (looks that way) but that was his calling card when the deal was made. That and the occasional nifty pass to a cutter.
I was surprised like some other Knicks fan that Hartenstein's calling card as a Knick has been a tough, scrappy, blue collar player, who is happy to mix it up under the rim. We needed that just as much, if not more than a mostly 3pt shooting big.
Hartenstein starts hitting the timely 3, that would be gravy.
Maybe you just didn’t read it right. His 3point shooting has been noted repeatedly by lots of people. And it’s an easy lookup if you care to pay attention to those things.
Ok "tough guy"
Lmao yall better leave Martin alone. He’s in mid season form.
So are you...
blkexec wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:SergioNYK wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Article in the Post saying IHart and Sims have both been working out at the 4 as well as the 5 and Thibs saying they “play effectively together.” And talks about playing them against certain lineups.Josh Hart and Jericho Sims may have some company backing up Julius Randle at power forward.Center Isaiah Hartenstein is an option as well, coach Tom Thibodeau said after Wednesday’s practice.
Both Sims and Hartenstein have been working out at both the power-forward and center spots, according to the coach.
“[Hartenstein] and Jericho, they play very effectively together. And oftentimes, I’ll go more by how they’re being defended, who do they have their 4 on, who do they have their 5 on?” Thibodeau said.
Hartenstein played a lot of 4 growing up, so he is at least somewhat used to it.
“I think when me and Jericho are on the court, they’ll probably want me to be in the passing game so I’ll be more [playing the 5] that way I can facilitate,” Hartenstein said. “But then just in pick-and-roll stuff, just trying to space out the court, read what they’re doing and just make everyone’s life easier.”
Want to see Hartenstein launch up some more threes like he did with the Clippers.
Been surprised that its been the weakest part of his game, when that was iHart's calling card with the Clips.
Agree that Hartenstein getting back his 3 would create spacing issues for the other team.
So just a bit of context. He shot exactly 30 3 points across the whole year with the Clips. Made 14. Realistically, he only shot them consistently across 10 games at the end of the season. Perhaps Garbage games.
For a contextanomicon, iHart's 3pt shooting was what most of the coverage was about when he got signed, with a 46% avg from 3. It may have been overselling (looks that way) but that was his calling card when the deal was made. That and the occasional nifty pass to a cutter.
I was surprised like some other Knicks fan that Hartenstein's calling card as a Knick has been a tough, scrappy, blue collar player, who is happy to mix it up under the rim. We needed that just as much, if not more than a mostly 3pt shooting big.
Hartenstein starts hitting the timely 3, that would be gravy.
Maybe you just didn’t read it right. His 3point shooting has been noted repeatedly by lots of people. And it’s an easy lookup if you care to pay attention to those things.
Ok "tough guy"
Lmao yall better leave Martin alone. He’s in mid season form.
I did FIVB all summer long with the guys and don't need preseason minutes
Jmpasq wrote:The Knicks really need a combo forward. Its amazing to me we have only 1 true forward on this roster.
I guess you are not counting RJ? Forgettable, I understand...
Panos wrote:they are working on Roby and Toppin as role players and Jaylen Martin is a 19 year old long guard who's a decent prospect.Jmpasq wrote:The Knicks really need a combo forward. Its amazing to me we have only 1 true forward on this roster.I guess you are not counting RJ? Forgettable, I understand...
I know its not terribly exciting but this FO isnt going to trade backwards in talent for what appears to be better fit. Play your best guys and see how it works. We are not small up front. We have good rim protection, we have two forwards in RJ/Randle who are wrecking balls and just awful to play against (and equally so watch at times as well) and we have an nice little army of 2 way combo guards who can get after you on both ends. Brunson/IQ/Grimes/DD/Hart/RJ... you are gonna see 3 or 4 of these guys on the floor at a time and we'll see how it goes.
Honestly I trust the coaching staff and FO at this point. Not all fans are willing to be patient. When the team is young like this and has a nice pipeline I can be.
fishmike wrote:Panos wrote:they are working on Roby and Toppin as role players and Jaylen Martin is a 19 year old long guard who's a decent prospect.Jmpasq wrote:The Knicks really need a combo forward. Its amazing to me we have only 1 true forward on this roster.I guess you are not counting RJ? Forgettable, I understand...
I know its not terribly exciting but this FO isnt going to trade backwards in talent for what appears to be better fit. Play your best guys and see how it works. We are not small up front. We have good rim protection, we have two forwards in RJ/Randle who are wrecking balls and just awful to play against (and equally so watch at times as well) and we have an nice little army of 2 way combo guards who can get after you on both ends. Brunson/IQ/Grimes/DD/Hart/RJ... you are gonna see 3 or 4 of these guys on the floor at a time and we'll see how it goes.
Honestly I trust the coaching staff and FO at this point. Not all fans are willing to be patient. When the team is young like this and has a nice pipeline I can be.
Well...
Guarding tall 3 pt shooters. That’s both weaknesses. Including Randle.
blkexec wrote:One thing that worries me about Hart and Sims at PF?Guarding tall 3 pt shooters. That’s both weaknesses. Including Randle.
They should be worried about guarding Randle.
Who shuts those unicorns down anyway? Markkenen and KP are very good and get theirs.
On defense, if they come out to guard Jules, he blows by them.
Not like Obi was doing a stellar job on them.
They can shoot over Josh, but if the put the ball on the floor, he is on them. He can make them work harder by denying them the ball. Etc.
Not worried about back up PF yet.
Nalod wrote:blkexec wrote:One thing that worries me about Hart and Sims at PF?Guarding tall 3 pt shooters. That’s both weaknesses. Including Randle.
They should be worried about guarding Randle.
Who shuts those unicorns down anyway? Markkenen and KP are very good and get theirs.
On defense, if they come out to guard Jules, he blows by them.
Not like Obi was doing a stellar job on them.
They can shoot over Josh, but if the put the ball on the floor, he is on them. He can make them work harder by denying them the ball. Etc.
Not worried about back up PF yet.
First ten games of the season will def give us real interesting facts on the depth of the team
My guess is none of this matters.
KnickDanger wrote:Day after cutting Roby, Knicks cut another power forward in Nathan Knight. They also signed a couple of guys named Moe just cut by the Cavs, one of whom is a PF.My guess is none of this matters.
I find it interesting we added more players even though the cut from 20 to 15 is coming up quick. Feels like preparation for any last min deals before the season starts. Or continuing to look for gems.
Nalod wrote:blkexec wrote:One thing that worries me about Hart and Sims at PF?Guarding tall 3 pt shooters. That’s both weaknesses. Including Randle.
They should be worried about guarding Randle.
Who shuts those unicorns down anyway? Markkenen and KP are very good and get theirs.
On defense, if they come out to guard Jules, he blows by them.
Not like Obi was doing a stellar job on them.
They can shoot over Josh, but if the put the ball on the floor, he is on them. He can make them work harder by denying them the ball. Etc.
Not worried about back up PF yet.
Nobody shuts anybody down. All those guys are in the hall of fame, it’s a new generation. But every good team has a player or two over 6’4 to slow those guys down. But in today’s nba, it’s extremely difficult to guard a 3pt shooter without getting a foul call. Now image guarding a 3pt shooter a foot taller than you. Hart will have to use his offense and ball denial to make them work hard which imhe can do. But it’s not easy and it will impact Josh touch from deep.
We are very small. Small when obi was here. Swap out obi for DDV and we got smaller. But there’s advantages with our size and speed. Will wait and see how Thibs uses our speed and quickness to our advantage.
COY Thibs will need to pull out all his tricks to make this roster work while keeping the synergy high. Manage randles emotions and help RJ minimize the highs and lows.
KnickDanger wrote:Day after cutting Roby, Knicks cut another power forward in Nathan Knight. They also signed a couple of guys named Moe just cut by the Cavs, one of whom is a PF.My guess is none of this matters.
Of course it matters. Welcome Brandon Goodwin and Mamadi Diakite.