Knicks · Trade RJ (page 1)

When Wages of Wins came out in the mid 2000's the author ranked Jazz jack of all trades Andrei Kirilenko in the top 5 and Allen Iverson way back at 100. His point was that defense, extra possessions from steals and rebounds, and good shots matter more than scoring. It's still not 100% accepted in a league where the bench and rookie scoring title are given awards as Rookie of the Year and Sixth Man of the Year, regardless of all other contributions. There are at least a plethora of states available and attention paid to glue guys and role players, even if contracts usually favor scoring above all else.

And it's on even a cursory look at advanced stats that it's clear, the major weakness in the rotation that is keeping the Knicks from competing for a championship starts and stops with RJ Barrett. Effective FG%, Free Throw%, Asst/ TO are all at the bottom for rotation players leading to a - 10 pts in on/ off scoring, a paltry .046 win shares per 48 minutes and a team leading -.7 Value over Replacement Player. Knicks would be better off playing anyone else on the team over RJ.

RJ's heavy minutes complicate things somewhat. The Knicks have lacked small forward depth behind him. But, as evidenced last year following the Josh Hart trade, playing even a pretty league average guy instead of RJ had a huge effect on the Knicks winning games.

No one ever wants a player to fail and we can all point to RJs sophomore season as a time when he got it right. But that was two seasons ago and RJ hasn't shown the ability to get back there or development of any other skills that would compensate. Maybe there's an argument that his Kobe assists to Robinson go uncredited, or his ability to draw fouls helps to loosen up defenses late in the quarter. But it seems increasingly obvious to me that if the Knicks want to compete for a championship over the next four years, the first move and most obvious one is to trade RJ.

I just don’t know what team is going to trade for him? My one thought has always been the Raptors, that you could con them on thinking RJ will excel in his home country.

Let me add that he is shooting 286 on volume and if you want to say that this is preseason, sorry, I don’t buy that for a second. If he had actually been serious, he would be shooting far better than that.

How many years in the league- just got paid serious wealth. Work on one thing- hitting a 3 pt shot.

I don’t expect him to turn into Steph Curry, but would 400 be too much to ask when the games don’t matter?

Philc1 wrote:No way. Not unless it’s part of a package to get a superstar. You guys are overrating our bench players bigly.

I agree with you. I see lots of posters saying the same things about how great the small bench will be because of speed and quickness but this isn't soccer and height does matter. I seem to feel their is a roster construction issue. However, I am eager to be wrong. First ten games should be a good measure of where we are. Don't anticipate a major trade occuring this season but if the rotation needs an adjustment hope the front office makes a deal sooner then later. If I am wrong I will be super happy

gradyandrew wrote:5 minutes into the 1st quarter vs. the Wizards was the perfect RJ play. Randle had the ball on the wing and a flare screen set RJ up alone in the right corner for an open 3. Randle made the pass. RJ caught it. Set his feet. Pulled up for the shot. Released it, just slowly enough to let a defender get on his face enough for him to Clank it off the rim.

When Wages of Wins came out in the mid 2000's the author ranked Jazz jack of all trades Andrei Kirilenko in the top 5 and Allen Iverson way back at 100. His point was that defense, extra possessions from steals and rebounds, and good shots matter more than scoring. It's still not 100% accepted in a league where the bench and rookie scoring title are given awards as Rookie of the Year and Sixth Man of the Year, regardless of all other contributions. There are at least a plethora of states available and attention paid to glue guys and role players, even if contracts usually favor scoring above all else.

And it's on even a cursory look at advanced stats that it's clear, the major weakness in the rotation that is keeping the Knicks from competing for a championship starts and stops with RJ Barrett. Effective FG%, Free Throw%, Asst/ TO are all at the bottom for rotation players leading to a - 10 pts in on/ off scoring, a paltry .046 win shares per 48 minutes and a team leading -.7 Value over Replacement Player. Knicks would be better off playing anyone else on the team over RJ.

RJ's heavy minutes complicate things somewhat. The Knicks have lacked small forward depth behind him. But, as evidenced last year following the Josh Hart trade, playing even a pretty league average guy instead of RJ had a huge effect on the Knicks winning games.

No one ever wants a player to fail and we can all point to RJs sophomore season as a time when he got it right. But that was two seasons ago and RJ hasn't shown the ability to get back there or development of any other skills that would compensate. Maybe there's an argument that his Kobe assists to Robinson go uncredited, or his ability to draw fouls helps to loosen up defenses late in the quarter. But it seems increasingly obvious to me that if the Knicks want to compete for a championship over the next four years, the first move and most obvious one is to trade RJ.

Well said. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment.

What do you think they could get in return?

EwingsGlass wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:5 minutes into the 1st quarter vs. the Wizards was the perfect RJ play. Randle had the ball on the wing and a flare screen set RJ up alone in the right corner for an open 3. Randle made the pass. RJ caught it. Set his feet. Pulled up for the shot. Released it, just slowly enough to let a defender get on his face enough for him to Clank it off the rim.

When Wages of Wins came out in the mid 2000's the author ranked Jazz jack of all trades Andrei Kirilenko in the top 5 and Allen Iverson way back at 100. His point was that defense, extra possessions from steals and rebounds, and good shots matter more than scoring. It's still not 100% accepted in a league where the bench and rookie scoring title are given awards as Rookie of the Year and Sixth Man of the Year, regardless of all other contributions. There are at least a plethora of states available and attention paid to glue guys and role players, even if contracts usually favor scoring above all else.

And it's on even a cursory look at advanced stats that it's clear, the major weakness in the rotation that is keeping the Knicks from competing for a championship starts and stops with RJ Barrett. Effective FG%, Free Throw%, Asst/ TO are all at the bottom for rotation players leading to a - 10 pts in on/ off scoring, a paltry .046 win shares per 48 minutes and a team leading -.7 Value over Replacement Player. Knicks would be better off playing anyone else on the team over RJ.

RJ's heavy minutes complicate things somewhat. The Knicks have lacked small forward depth behind him. But, as evidenced last year following the Josh Hart trade, playing even a pretty league average guy instead of RJ had a huge effect on the Knicks winning games.

No one ever wants a player to fail and we can all point to RJs sophomore season as a time when he got it right. But that was two seasons ago and RJ hasn't shown the ability to get back there or development of any other skills that would compensate. Maybe there's an argument that his Kobe assists to Robinson go uncredited, or his ability to draw fouls helps to loosen up defenses late in the quarter. But it seems increasingly obvious to me that if the Knicks want to compete for a championship over the next four years, the first move and most obvious one is to trade RJ.

Well said. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment.

What do you think they could get in return?

how about Herb Jones and Larry Nance Jr from New Orleans? Just spitballing, but maybe New Orleans thinks Barrett will help Zion flurish.

I will say I trust RJ more in a pinch than Julius.

HofstraBBall wrote:Here is where guys start mentioning meaningless overvalued players from other teams and undervalue what we have.
Har on RJ but we absolutely do not trade him unless he is the key piece in bringing over a major star.

Why would anyone give you a major star for what has been a very mediocre player with overall poor analytics on both offense/defense?

We overvalue our own - it’s natural because we want them to succeed but a fair return for an RJ would be a solid / decent player.

Not even sure N.O. Would consider RJ for H Jones

HofstraBBall wrote:Here is where guys start mentioning meaningless overvalued players from other teams and undervalue what we have.
Har on RJ but we absolutely do not trade him unless he is the key piece in bringing over a major star.

I can't help but think of what we were able to get for Obi. Two draft picks! Two second round picks! Two protected second round picks!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...

RJ only beat out Jaden Ivey and Jordan Nwora in on/off for 243rd worst in the league. That's why if the Knicks can trade him for anyone, it's a win.

Nalod wrote:How does RJ help "unlock" Zion and thus would apply a premium for NOLA to trade for him?
They played ball for one season in college.
Thats it.
Not like Cam unlocked RJ, or visa versa. What magic do they have with each other? They spend a summer thru march playing ball.
We don't even know of they are still tight.

"Wonder Twin powers activate!"

Leon staged a Nova reunion in NY, speaks to the value of chemistry. I agree its a gamble, not guaranteed to work. We've been fortunate so far.

Missed the Wiz game. But the last game I watched, RJ looked like he had another gear. Better improvisational skills, even though they werent falling.

No one is untradeable at this point except Brunson IMO. I'd like to see how RJ does up to the first trade deadline, before the front office considers a trade. Barrett surpassed expectations in the playoffs.

If there was a deal with NO, I would prefer a deal for Zion, instead of facilitating a reunion with RJ.

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:How does RJ help "unlock" Zion and thus would apply a premium for NOLA to trade for him?
They played ball for one season in college.
Thats it.
Not like Cam unlocked RJ, or visa versa. What magic do they have with each other? They spend a summer thru march playing ball.
We don't even know of they are still tight.

"Wonder Twin powers activate!"

Leon staged a Nova reunion in NY, speaks to the value of chemistry. I agree its a gamble, not guaranteed to work. We've been fortunate so far.

Missed the Wiz game. But the last game I watched, RJ looked like he had another gear. Better improvisational skills, even though they werent falling.

No one is untradeable at this point except Brunson IMO. I'd like to see how RJ does up to the first trade deadline, before the front office considers a trade. Barrett surpassed expectations in the playoffs.

If there was a deal with NO, I would prefer a deal for Zion, instead of facilitating a reunion with RJ.

If I were the Knick FO, I would have asked for 1 thing from RJ this summer - an ability to hit open 3pt shots in practice.

And if he couldn't do that at this point, I would look to trade him.

RJ has been such a frustrating player to watch. There are glimpses, flashes and he is not hurt for much and he is seemingly a nice guy.

We could be in a far worse situation with Zion or Ja.

His numbers are what they are- and what team would trade for him and his contract?

It would have to be a team that thinks a change of scenery could unlock a gear.

I have two franchises I can think they could think this: Toronto and New Orleans.

Absolutely spit balling.

franco12 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:How does RJ help "unlock" Zion and thus would apply a premium for NOLA to trade for him?
They played ball for one season in college.
Thats it.
Not like Cam unlocked RJ, or visa versa. What magic do they have with each other? They spend a summer thru march playing ball.
We don't even know of they are still tight.

"Wonder Twin powers activate!"

Leon staged a Nova reunion in NY, speaks to the value of chemistry. I agree its a gamble, not guaranteed to work. We've been fortunate so far.

Missed the Wiz game. But the last game I watched, RJ looked like he had another gear. Better improvisational skills, even though they werent falling.

No one is untradeable at this point except Brunson IMO. I'd like to see how RJ does up to the first trade deadline, before the front office considers a trade. Barrett surpassed expectations in the playoffs.

If there was a deal with NO, I would prefer a deal for Zion, instead of facilitating a reunion with RJ.

If I were the Knick FO, I would have asked for 1 thing from RJ this summer - an ability to hit open 3pt shots in practice.

And if he couldn't do that at this point, I would look to trade him.

RJ has been such a frustrating player to watch. There are glimpses, flashes and he is not hurt for much and he is seemingly a nice guy.

We could be in a far worse situation with Zion or Ja.

His numbers are what they are- and what team would trade for him and his contract?

It would have to be a team that thinks a change of scenery could unlock a gear.

I have two franchises I can think they could think this: Toronto and New Orleans.

Absolutely spit balling.

We'll see how RJ's 3 looks this season. I agree that Barrett can be a frustrating player to watch. RJ had a good playoff run to close the season, as opposed to a good regular season run in relatively meaningless games.

To answer your question about who would trade for RJ, I believe you answered that question at the beginning of your reply.Teams that value RJ's availability, in addition to 20pts a game.

My concern with a RJ/Zion reunion is the fact that their games can both be described as being of the "bull in a china shop" variety, bully ball. Moreso now than when they were at Duke.

I would take a chance on Zion because of how he can almost singlehandedly turn a decent team into contenders. He's just entering his prime, worth the risk IMO.

I would offer either a package of Quickley/RJ and picks (lots) or substitute IQ for Randle.

Slightly off topic, I think a big trade is going to hinge on how well Deuce is playing up to the first trade deadline. Missed the last game, but the previous one, McBride looked much more willing to put the ball on the floor, go at the D.

If Deuce can make a case as the full time backup PG, it will be easier for the FO to justify trading IQ in a deal for a star. If it doesnt look like there is a path to IQ starting.

KnickDanger wrote:Trade Randle, trade RJ. Working our way into mid season form.

When are we allowed to talk about possible trades? Mid-season form indeed.

GustavBahler wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Trade Randle, trade RJ. Working our way into mid season form.

When are we allowed to talk about possible trades? Mid-season form indeed.

Alpha1971 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:No way. Not unless it’s part of a package to get a superstar. You guys are overrating our bench players bigly.

I agree with you. I see lots of posters saying the same things about how great the small bench will be because of speed and quickness but this isn't soccer and height does matter. I seem to feel their is a roster construction issue. However, I am eager to be wrong. First ten games should be a good measure of where we are. Don't anticipate a major trade occuring this season but if the rotation needs an adjustment hope the front office makes a deal sooner then later. If I am wrong I will be super happy

Part of the reason the small bench works is it is a bench. RJ is also our only depth at the PF

KnickDanger wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Trade Randle, trade RJ. Working our way into mid season form.

When are we allowed to talk about possible trades? Mid-season form indeed.

I’m sorry my posts trigger you so. By all means continue obsessively imagining trades that will never happen that involve the players that, uh, trigger you.

You're projecting like a 1000 watt bulb. No one can talk about trading your favorite players without you being triggered to comment.

Not a counter-argument like other posters. Just complaining that posters are discussing trades on pro sports forum. Way to go there.

Nalod wrote:How does RJ help "unlock" Zion and thus would apply a premium for NOLA to trade for him?
They played ball for one season in college.
Thats it.
Not like Cam unlocked RJ, or visa versa. What magic do they have with each other? They spend a summer thru march playing ball.
We don't even know of they are still tight.

RJ isn’t unlocking anyone - he would have pass the ball to help with that - on the court he’d be a worse fit vs. Ingram.

Maybe RJ and Cam can get to NO and Cam can continue bricking like at Duke/NBA.