Knicks · Where do the Knicks get better ? (page 2)
Less realistic is they need another major alpha to help win the real tough games and playoffs. To me the best fit is Donovan. When he was drafted the narrative is he a defensive specialist but hopefully can learn to shoot. He obviously learned to score and in the process has been slacking on D compared to his capabilities. I would like to think he would buy into a defensive system. I am happy to be patient with him so that we don’t sell the farm to get him
SergioNYK wrote:I don't think we'll be able to trade for that star that will elevate us to championship contender. Those type of players are usually never available. Spida is not at the level btw. Not even sure Embiid is either after what we'll lose in acquiring him. I think the best bet and it'll be difficult and highly unlikely, is for Brunson to take another step, RJ to take another step like he has, Randle to be more consistent and in the future get really lucky with drafting a player with a low pick who goes on to become really good like SGA (drafted 11th), Giannis (drafted 15th) or Joker (2nd rounder) or sign another under the radar guy like Brunson who is much better than what he's showing.
Takes time to develop young guys like SGA, Giannis and Joker. 6 games in and look at the faithful freaking out.
RJ is all of 23 years old and many were giving up on him.
Brunson I think has peaked. But, He is devoted to defense and looking to move the ball and he has taken a step back but thats what happens when players are asked to evolve.
Mitch offensive rebounding has increased. I was impressed by one sequence vs. Clipps where he grabed three boards then converted. Not sayin git pads the stats but the tips to the rim he had three shots and made one.
Notice he is dribbling a bit on the paremeter then handing ball off or passing. This is all new.
RJ doing far more playmaking with the ball especially with the second unit.
Grimes is hurting the starting unit a bit. not a lot. He has to hit those quick release shots with better accuracy. As said before, I admire Thibs patience and perhaps think Grimes needs to just keep at it and he'll do it. We are better in the LONG RUN with that thought process if im guessing correct.
Otherwise put Evan in. We know he can make those. But there is a reason for his benching. In part defense, off ball movement, and the future that could be Grimes.
How long does it take? I don't know.
Maybe its DDV's spot to take? Move grimes to second unit and hope he blossoms there?
Best thing is team gets back on track to win like last year and let Grimes evolve. Its boring.
As for back up PF, Issac is a great idea but Orlando need or want Evan? I doubt it. They have a glut of guards as it is.
If any of you subscribed to "Schedule is tough to start with", then its easy to understand that blame and understanding of whats wrong is one thing, executing improvement is never certain unless we type it. We rarely consider our "suggestions" could make it worse.
Of course, "make more shots" or "Score more points" always does!!!! LOL
Enjoy guys!
That second half vs Clips was really fun!!
(I’m editing this because I realize I left out Jrue Holiday. Perhaps IQ is the Knick equivalent? Anyway, I stick with my main point of comparing Knicks and Celtics rosters.)
With the alternative strategy- the long ongoing vision of emptying the cupboard for “a star” incessantly proposed by media and many fans, I will always believe that will get us what we’ve always gotten. Up until now the FO has fortunately not gone there.
KnickDanger wrote:If RJ continues to step forward, does our top three of Brunson, Randle, and RJ become commensurate with top dog in the East Boston’s of Tatum, Brown, and KP? Though the differences in the players are apparent, I don't think comparing the overall impact would be far fetched. And though I defend Randle often against the, uh, “dislikers,” I am aware of his shortcomings and would see him ideally as the third wheel in this troika. So more than anyone this is dependent on RJ. And then probably Randle adjusting. After that you can go down the roster where the Knicks seem pretty darn strong. We’ve shown we can hang with the Celtics. A bit of growth with some young players isn’t an unreasonable hope and it could be exciting to see where it leads.(I’m editing this because I realize I left out Jrue Holiday. Perhaps IQ is the Knick equivalent? Anyway, I stick with my main point of comparing Knicks and Celtics rosters.)
With the alternative strategy- the long ongoing vision of emptying the cupboard for “a star” incessantly proposed by media and many fans, I will always believe that will get us what we’ve always gotten. Up until now the FO has fortunately not gone there.
Boston core of Brown and Tatum was drafted. Our Randle and Brunson came via FA. Our draft blessings have been in lower rounds where we missed with Frank, Knox and Obi.
Only Obi is on this FO and really, national player of the year when March madness stopped due to covid, players were not vetted due to covid summer, and the draft was not until two weeks before the season started. On paper it was a logical choice but we missed. Boston wheeled and dealed with high picks that we did not have.
Fast forward to our comps with them, I think we really discount how good Jrue Holiday is until we see the intangibles that don't come up on stat sheets.
He is better than Marcus Smart and KP is a big improvement to Grant and Robert Williams (who is having knee surgery)
I will say this, Knicks did some stupid things but also made some good decisions that just did not execute, and had some bad luck over the last 15 year prior to Leon.
While Chips are the goal, it was also important to get to relevancy and stay there. While that can be boring, its really necessary as a business to do this. Knicks were a joke. We all have read its far harder to go from 47 wins to 55 wins then from 37 to 47 wins. I think fan frustration was too much to tank and given the odds its not a good proposition.
Fans are rarely patient and want to feel good about progress. I'm not privy to what Leon and Co. are really up to and what the timeline is. He has improved the product and at the same time we have a base of assets to maneuver. Where that leads to?? Who knows.
Thibs does better on shorter rotations and plays starters ~35mpg. So we need the best talent possible playing those minutes.
It's funny how we need Donovan Mitchell in the worst way. If we could only manage to keep: RJ, Mitchell, & Grimes in the process
Nalod wrote:KnickDanger wrote:If RJ continues to step forward, does our top three of Brunson, Randle, and RJ become commensurate with top dog in the East Boston’s of Tatum, Brown, and KP? Though the differences in the players are apparent, I don't think comparing the overall impact would be far fetched. And though I defend Randle often against the, uh, “dislikers,” I am aware of his shortcomings and would see him ideally as the third wheel in this troika. So more than anyone this is dependent on RJ. And then probably Randle adjusting. After that you can go down the roster where the Knicks seem pretty darn strong. We’ve shown we can hang with the Celtics. A bit of growth with some young players isn’t an unreasonable hope and it could be exciting to see where it leads.(I’m editing this because I realize I left out Jrue Holiday. Perhaps IQ is the Knick equivalent? Anyway, I stick with my main point of comparing Knicks and Celtics rosters.)
With the alternative strategy- the long ongoing vision of emptying the cupboard for “a star” incessantly proposed by media and many fans, I will always believe that will get us what we’ve always gotten. Up until now the FO has fortunately not gone there.
Boston core of Brown and Tatum was drafted. Our Randle and Brunson came via FA. Our draft blessings have been in lower rounds where we missed with Frank, Knox and Obi.
Only Obi is on this FO and really, national player of the year when March madness stopped due to covid, players were not vetted due to covid summer, and the draft was not until two weeks before the season started. On paper it was a logical choice but we missed. Boston wheeled and dealed with high picks that we did not have.
Fast forward to our comps with them, I think we really discount how good Jrue Holiday is until we see the intangibles that don't come up on stat sheets.
He is better than Marcus Smart and KP is a big improvement to Grant and Robert Williams (who is having knee surgery)I will say this, Knicks did some stupid things but also made some good decisions that just did not execute, and had some bad luck over the last 15 year prior to Leon.
While Chips are the goal, it was also important to get to relevancy and stay there. While that can be boring, its really necessary as a business to do this. Knicks were a joke. We all have read its far harder to go from 47 wins to 55 wins then from 37 to 47 wins. I think fan frustration was too much to tank and given the odds its not a good proposition.Fans are rarely patient and want to feel good about progress. I'm not privy to what Leon and Co. are really up to and what the timeline is. He has improved the product and at the same time we have a base of assets to maneuver. Where that leads to?? Who knows.
Not arguing any of your points but my point is (regardless of how we got here) our roster matches up reasonably to the Celtics and has the potential for more growth. Not a statement of fact or even a prediction though it is my hope. Perhaps i should compare them to the Heat but I'm thinking their success has more to do with a deal with the devil than roster construction.
KnickDanger wrote:If RJ continues to step forward, does our top three of Brunson, Randle, and RJ become commensurate with top dog in the East Boston’s of Tatum, Brown, and KP? Though the differences in the players are apparent, I don't think comparing the overall impact would be far fetched. And though I defend Randle often against the, uh, “dislikers,” I am aware of his shortcomings and would see him ideally as the third wheel in this troika. So more than anyone this is dependent on RJ. And then probably Randle adjusting. After that you can go down the roster where the Knicks seem pretty darn strong. We’ve shown we can hang with the Celtics. A bit of growth with some young players isn’t an unreasonable hope and it could be exciting to see where it leads.(I’m editing this because I realize I left out Jrue Holiday. Perhaps IQ is the Knick equivalent? Anyway, I stick with my main point of comparing Knicks and Celtics rosters.)
With the alternative strategy- the long ongoing vision of emptying the cupboard for “a star” incessantly proposed by media and many fans, I will always believe that will get us what we’ve always gotten. Up until now the FO has fortunately not gone there.
We play Boston well head to head, but if you really look at those games, Tatum is the best player on the floor. Brunson gives Holiday trouble despite Holiday being an amazing defender. The Knicks defense shuts Jaylen Brown down hard. We don't really have an answer for KP, he is in a good place in Boston where he gets like 10 feet of open shooting space with the Knicks packing the paint. But if you are gonna get beat from the 3 point line generally, make the opponents bigs hit the 3s. I don't think anyone has an answer for the Unicorn surrounded by the rest of that squad. He is gonna get a lot of open looks.
I don't really think we are on the Celtics level even though we play them well.
EwingsGlass wrote:KnickDanger wrote:If RJ continues to step forward, does our top three of Brunson, Randle, and RJ become commensurate with top dog in the East Boston’s of Tatum, Brown, and KP? Though the differences in the players are apparent, I don't think comparing the overall impact would be far fetched. And though I defend Randle often against the, uh, “dislikers,” I am aware of his shortcomings and would see him ideally as the third wheel in this troika. So more than anyone this is dependent on RJ. And then probably Randle adjusting. After that you can go down the roster where the Knicks seem pretty darn strong. We’ve shown we can hang with the Celtics. A bit of growth with some young players isn’t an unreasonable hope and it could be exciting to see where it leads.(I’m editing this because I realize I left out Jrue Holiday. Perhaps IQ is the Knick equivalent? Anyway, I stick with my main point of comparing Knicks and Celtics rosters.)
With the alternative strategy- the long ongoing vision of emptying the cupboard for “a star” incessantly proposed by media and many fans, I will always believe that will get us what we’ve always gotten. Up until now the FO has fortunately not gone there.
We play Boston well head to head, but if you really look at those games, Tatum is the best player on the floor. Brunson gives Holiday trouble despite Holiday being an amazing defender. The Knicks defense shuts Jaylen Brown down hard. We don't really have an answer for KP, he is in a good place in Boston where he gets like 10 feet of open shooting space with the Knicks packing the paint. But if you are gonna get beat from the 3 point line generally, make the opponents bigs hit the 3s. I don't think anyone has an answer for the Unicorn surrounded by the rest of that squad. He is gonna get a lot of open looks.
I don't really think we are on the Celtics level even though we play them well.
Didn't Jrue Holiday guard Randle on opening night? He did a great job btw!
Nalod wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:KnickDanger wrote:If RJ continues to step forward, does our top three of Brunson, Randle, and RJ become commensurate with top dog in the East Boston’s of Tatum, Brown, and KP? Though the differences in the players are apparent, I don't think comparing the overall impact would be far fetched. And though I defend Randle often against the, uh, “dislikers,” I am aware of his shortcomings and would see him ideally as the third wheel in this troika. So more than anyone this is dependent on RJ. And then probably Randle adjusting. After that you can go down the roster where the Knicks seem pretty darn strong. We’ve shown we can hang with the Celtics. A bit of growth with some young players isn’t an unreasonable hope and it could be exciting to see where it leads.(I’m editing this because I realize I left out Jrue Holiday. Perhaps IQ is the Knick equivalent? Anyway, I stick with my main point of comparing Knicks and Celtics rosters.)
With the alternative strategy- the long ongoing vision of emptying the cupboard for “a star” incessantly proposed by media and many fans, I will always believe that will get us what we’ve always gotten. Up until now the FO has fortunately not gone there.
We play Boston well head to head, but if you really look at those games, Tatum is the best player on the floor. Brunson gives Holiday trouble despite Holiday being an amazing defender. The Knicks defense shuts Jaylen Brown down hard. We don't really have an answer for KP, he is in a good place in Boston where he gets like 10 feet of open shooting space with the Knicks packing the paint. But if you are gonna get beat from the 3 point line generally, make the opponents bigs hit the 3s. I don't think anyone has an answer for the Unicorn surrounded by the rest of that squad. He is gonna get a lot of open looks.
I don't really think we are on the Celtics level even though we play them well.
Didn't Jrue Holiday guard Randle on opening night? He did a great job btw!
For the most part yeah, in my head I am meshing Brunson vs Holiday in both Milwaukee and Boston.
A lot of gems here. Smallish sample sizes. See what happens to NetRtg eFG when RJ is off the floor?
See what happens to assist rate when every starter but RJ is off the floor?
Not ready to condemn anyone but stats and eye test show that Randle is pressing. He needs to settle down.
1. Increasing the salary of Randles whisperer.
2. Trade all star Randle for a different type of all star.
3. Being patient with Randle and allowing him to fully heal.
4. Modify the offense to reduce the # of iso plays.
5. Reduce Grimes mins and increase IQ mins
blkexec wrote:Knicks get better by:
1. Increasing the salary of Randles whisperer.
2. Trade all star Randle for a different type of all star.
3. Being patient with Randle and allowing him to fully heal.
4. Modify the offense to reduce the # of iso plays.
5. Reduce Grimes mins and increase IQ mins
#4 has been a wishlist item for Thibs for his entire Knick tenure (and probably at his other stops). Somehow the team needs to run plays that don't end in ISO. But hey, other teams bait the Knicks by playing man and Thibs probably gives his players a green light on 1-on-1 situations.
The Knicks have more tools to move the ball AND make shots with DiVincenzo and Hart to start the year. And you'd think Hartenstein earned trust as a high post creator last season.
It's early. Randle's struggles and the impact so several players on our team on FIBA rosters have had some effect. (RJ started the season hot, but has some wear and tear; Hart and Brunson aren't quite themselves from last year so far (taking care of twins after being away in the Philippines - and Brunson with Honeymoon on his brain?)).
EwingsGlass wrote:https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanc...A lot of gems here. Smallish sample sizes. See what happens to NetRtg eFG when RJ is off the floor?
See what happens to assist rate when every starter but RJ is off the floor?
Not ready to condemn anyone but stats and eye test show that Randle is pressing. He needs to settle down.
To analyze lineups with some measure of certainty, then, we need to wait for all those extra variables to settle. Analyst Kostya Medvedovsky calculated last year that it takes about 550 possessions for a five-man lineup’s offensive rating to “stabilize” and about 850 possessions for its defensive rating to do the same. (Defense takes longer because a team has much more control over its own shooting percentage than its opponents’.)
https://www.theringer.com/2023/4/13/2368...
This is a good article on lineup stats. The major takeaway is that the Knicks starters continue to be a dominant force.
gradyandrew wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanc...A lot of gems here. Smallish sample sizes. See what happens to NetRtg eFG when RJ is off the floor?
See what happens to assist rate when every starter but RJ is off the floor?
Not ready to condemn anyone but stats and eye test show that Randle is pressing. He needs to settle down.
To analyze lineups with some measure of certainty, then, we need to wait for all those extra variables to settle. Analyst Kostya Medvedovsky calculated last year that it takes about 550 possessions for a five-man lineup’s offensive rating to “stabilize” and about 850 possessions for its defensive rating to do the same. (Defense takes longer because a team has much more control over its own shooting percentage than its opponents’.)
https://www.theringer.com/2023/4/13/2368...This is a good article on lineup stats. The major takeaway is that the Knicks starters continue to be a dominant force.
The Knicks starters plus Quickley is becoming hard to top. The answer may be just to wait it out until we can somehow upgrade over Randle. Maybe a team with a disgruntled star that doesn’t want to completely blow it up. Donovan Mitchell will always be a possibility but it would require moving Barrett and quickley im sure. Quickley and picks for Anunoby continues to be the best non-star upgrade, but how much better does it make us? I wonder if there’s a path to getting Anunoby this summer by using the CAA back channel. Simply replacing grimes in the lineup with Anunoby and resigning Quickley.
Knixkik wrote:gradyandrew wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanc...A lot of gems here. Smallish sample sizes. See what happens to NetRtg eFG when RJ is off the floor?
See what happens to assist rate when every starter but RJ is off the floor?
Not ready to condemn anyone but stats and eye test show that Randle is pressing. He needs to settle down.
To analyze lineups with some measure of certainty, then, we need to wait for all those extra variables to settle. Analyst Kostya Medvedovsky calculated last year that it takes about 550 possessions for a five-man lineup’s offensive rating to “stabilize” and about 850 possessions for its defensive rating to do the same. (Defense takes longer because a team has much more control over its own shooting percentage than its opponents’.)
https://www.theringer.com/2023/4/13/2368...This is a good article on lineup stats. The major takeaway is that the Knicks starters continue to be a dominant force.
The Knicks starters plus Quickley is becoming hard to top. The answer may be just to wait it out until we can somehow upgrade over Randle. Maybe a team with a disgruntled star that doesn’t want to completely blow it up. Donovan Mitchell will always be a possibility but it would require moving Barrett and quickley im sure. Quickley and picks for Anunoby continues to be the best non-star upgrade, but how much better does it make us? I wonder if there’s a path to getting Anunoby this summer by using the CAA back channel. Simply replacing grimes in the lineup with Anunoby and resigning Quickley.
I'd sign on for this. Grimes, Fournier and a couple picks for Anunoby does this for me.
If Kat prescribes to Thibs way with more maturity (he like most people do change over time) and can be healthy then you CONSIDER IT.
Randle is the obvious choice and the one for Minny to consider given his contract is reasonable. Grimes with him makes it work. With Ith Naz reid they have depth at both the C and PF. Randle is an allstar and ALL NBA also!
Flawed are both. I get that.
If you can keep IQ out of the trade and use him to TOronto as part of a OG trade could be quite good.
Mitch
KAT
RJ
Brunson
OG
I don't know how to make the money work and Ujiri happy. He has to trade one of Siakim or OG before the deadline. He can lose one but not both without value. Siakim to Dallas seems to have some traction and I'd love to see OG here on the wing with RJ. IQ and Evan get it done. I think draft capital might have to be used. Toronto still has to pay IQ but 18-20m might get it done and he is younger than OG.
Funny, knicks schedule was digested by fans to understand it could start a bit rough. What we forget is if its rough, then not all players are performing. And 6 games in we want to move on as if they never ever will improve.
Both Kat and Randle have so show more. Randle seems to be the last two games.
A quick Study of Minny is Ant Edwards is only 22 and he is a killer. The WIndhorst group alluded that rounding out the roster using KAT as trade might solve the money and actually still have them as a top 4 in the west. Conley is still very good.
Knicks are good because we are really deep. How can we improve and still keep enough to contend if we trade. Also, the chemistry has to matter, not just the pieces.
End of the day I'm patient and really ok with Randle. Im a bit fan boy devoted to keeping RJ as its been 4+ seasons rooting for him. Same for Mitch. Some of you feel the same about IQ. WIth DDV I see the second unit will be ok with Josh Hart. We'll need a back up for KAT. Sims fills that role some? That is a wild card!
Will this roster contend with my roster? Not if the chemistry is not right.
EwingsGlass wrote:Knixkik wrote:gradyandrew wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanc...A lot of gems here. Smallish sample sizes. See what happens to NetRtg eFG when RJ is off the floor?
See what happens to assist rate when every starter but RJ is off the floor?
Not ready to condemn anyone but stats and eye test show that Randle is pressing. He needs to settle down.
To analyze lineups with some measure of certainty, then, we need to wait for all those extra variables to settle. Analyst Kostya Medvedovsky calculated last year that it takes about 550 possessions for a five-man lineup’s offensive rating to “stabilize” and about 850 possessions for its defensive rating to do the same. (Defense takes longer because a team has much more control over its own shooting percentage than its opponents’.)
https://www.theringer.com/2023/4/13/2368...This is a good article on lineup stats. The major takeaway is that the Knicks starters continue to be a dominant force.
The Knicks starters plus Quickley is becoming hard to top. The answer may be just to wait it out until we can somehow upgrade over Randle. Maybe a team with a disgruntled star that doesn’t want to completely blow it up. Donovan Mitchell will always be a possibility but it would require moving Barrett and quickley im sure. Quickley and picks for Anunoby continues to be the best non-star upgrade, but how much better does it make us? I wonder if there’s a path to getting Anunoby this summer by using the CAA back channel. Simply replacing grimes in the lineup with Anunoby and resigning Quickley.
I'd sign on for this. Grimes, Fournier and a couple picks for Anunoby does this for me.
that's a trade I could get behind.
I wouldn't move IQ or RJ for OG though.
This is with the Knicks down 1 against Milwaukee. I didn’t catch this. That’s basically Randle blowing a tight game cause Brunson took the shot instead of him. Not only is he walking back on D, but he stops Grimes and Brunson from getting back.
It’s hard to get behind Ju when he does stuff like this.