Knicks · DeJounte Murray vs MIA in playoffs - 23/7/7 with 2 steals per game and only 2 TO's in 38mpg on 45/38/100 shooting. (page 8)
nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Are you mystified about teams that trade for players that had been on teams with a losing record?
Like, that's it. They won't work any better on a different team?
DLeethal wrote:TheMTL wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
DDV is not a legit NBA starter on a championship caliber team. Even on the Knicks, he barely closes games and averages mpg similar to bench guys.
DDV was brought here to be our sixth man as insurance for IQ.
DDV quite literally was a starter on a championship team - the 2021 Bucks. That said, I think the starters need a little more firepower to be championship level. As good a fit as DDV and OG are, we don't have enough top-end star power with just Brunson and Randle. Adding another fringe all star guy is probably needed.
Good point about DDV's resume.
Im not so sure we need more scoring from the starters. Its usually the Brunson/Randle show to start the game. OG and DDV are there for the open 3s. JB and Randle attack the rim. After a few minutes, (hopefully IQ's replacement) would sub in, and give the lineup a boost. Who has the hotter hand that night would determine who finishes.
I'm guessing that starting Murray would have the same effect we watched with RJ in the starting lineup. Too many ball dominant players.
martin wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Are you mystified about teams that trade for players that had been on teams with a losing record?
Like, that's it. They won't work any better on a different team?
I'm not keen on the idea of Murray here, but that's beside the point. But if you're bringing Murray in as a 6th man, then those details need to be ironed before hand. If Murray isn't cool with the idea, he's not negotiating the trade kicker and Paul is going to steer him away from the Knicks. I'm not sure how well Leon's sit down meeting with Rich Paul went, but the ramifications are clear. If an agreement was made under the table and those conditions aren't met, you're risking fracturing the relationship with one of the most powerful agencies in the league. We can say it doesn't matter if Murray doesn't officially starts (I personally don't think so), but Murray could see things differently.
martin wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Are you mystified about teams that trade for players that had been on teams with a losing record?
Like, that's it. They won't work any better on a different team?
For whatever reason San Antonio decided to move on. Now for whatever reason, Atlanta is ready to move on.
Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Are you mystified about teams that trade for players that had been on teams with a losing record?
Like, that's it. They won't work any better on a different team?
For whatever reason San Antonio decided to move on. Now for whatever reason, Atlanta is ready to move on.
Sounds like Jamal Crawford's career, before the 6th man of the year awards. Might be a matter of fit.
Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Are you mystified about teams that trade for players that had been on teams with a losing record?
Like, that's it. They won't work any better on a different team?
For whatever reason San Antonio decided to move on. Now for whatever reason, Atlanta is ready to move on.
Cp3 was traded 6 times during his career...
it happens. lots of stars have been traded 2-3 times.
BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Are you mystified about teams that trade for players that had been on teams with a losing record?
Like, that's it. They won't work any better on a different team?
I'm not keen on the idea of Murray here, but that's beside the point. But if you're bringing Murray in as a 6th man, then those details need to be ironed before hand. If Murray isn't cool with the idea, he's not negotiating the trade kicker and Paul is going to steer him away from the Knicks. I'm not sure how well Leon's sit down meeting with Rich Paul went, but the ramifications are clear. If an agreement was made under the table and those conditions aren't met, you're risking fracturing the relationship with one of the most powerful agencies in the league. We can say it doesn't matter if Murray doesn't officially starts (I personally don't think so), but Murray could see things differently.
Agree 100 percent. The FO has to sell him on the goal of being the best 6th man in the league. A sixth man of the year award (or finalist) trumps being a young starting quality player, who cant stick with a team.
Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Are you mystified about teams that trade for players that had been on teams with a losing record?
Like, that's it. They won't work any better on a different team?
For whatever reason San Antonio decided to move on. Now for whatever reason, Atlanta is ready to move on.
San Antonio is a bidder for Dejounte. What does that tell you?
BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Are you mystified about teams that trade for players that had been on teams with a losing record?
Like, that's it. They won't work any better on a different team?
I'm not keen on the idea of Murray here, but that's beside the point. But if you're bringing Murray in as a 6th man, then those details need to be ironed before hand. If Murray isn't cool with the idea, he's not negotiating the trade kicker and Paul is going to steer him away from the Knicks. I'm not sure how well Leon's sit down meeting with Rich Paul went, but the ramifications are clear. If an agreement was made under the table and those conditions aren't met, you're risking fracturing the relationship with one of the most powerful agencies in the league. We can say it doesn't matter if Murray doesn't officially starts (I personally don't think so), but Murray could see things differently.
100%, it's why I think we heard about the CAA-Clutch chatter a while back.
Do you think Murray would rather wallow in a losing situation in Atlanta or maybe go on a mini playoff run with Knicks?
Clutch literally has zero clients the Knicks would pursue?
martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Are you mystified about teams that trade for players that had been on teams with a losing record?
Like, that's it. They won't work any better on a different team?
I'm not keen on the idea of Murray here, but that's beside the point. But if you're bringing Murray in as a 6th man, then those details need to be ironed before hand. If Murray isn't cool with the idea, he's not negotiating the trade kicker and Paul is going to steer him away from the Knicks. I'm not sure how well Leon's sit down meeting with Rich Paul went, but the ramifications are clear. If an agreement was made under the table and those conditions aren't met, you're risking fracturing the relationship with one of the most powerful agencies in the league. We can say it doesn't matter if Murray doesn't officially starts (I personally don't think so), but Murray could see things differently.
100%, it's why I think we heard about the CAA-Clutch chatter a while back.
Do you think Murray would rather wallow in a losing situation in Atlanta or maybe go on a mini playoff run with Knicks?
Clutch literally has zero clients the Knicks would pursue?
Thats a very good point about a potential Knicks deep playoff run. Would be very cool if Murray embraced a bench role, on a contender.
Mitch coming back in time for the playoffs. Being reasonably healthy and mobile. Playing iHart's old role. Fewer minutes hopefully paying dividends when it comes to availability. Also available to close vs. elite bigs.
You add Murray. A "Mitch and Murray" second unit would be amazing in a playoff run. Mitch would be even more of a lob threat vs. second units. Thats a lineup I believe could get us to the Finals.
Add Fultz, and rest him until just before the playoffs. That would be a Knicks squad I would really enjoy watching come playoff time.
martin wrote:Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Are you mystified about teams that trade for players that had been on teams with a losing record?
Like, that's it. They won't work any better on a different team?
For whatever reason San Antonio decided to move on. Now for whatever reason, Atlanta is ready to move on.
San Antonio is a bidder for Dejounte. What does that tell you?
If you like stats, here's an article from the Ringer about Murrays declining below average defense and his worst true shooting percentage among high usage players rating. Barrett is 54 and Murray is 49
Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?
Are you mystified about teams that trade for players that had been on teams with a losing record?
Like, that's it. They won't work any better on a different team?
For whatever reason San Antonio decided to move on. Now for whatever reason, Atlanta is ready to move on.
San Antonio is a bidder for Dejounte. What does that tell you?
If you like stats, here's an article from the Ringer about Murrays declining below average defense and his worst true shooting percentage among high usage players rating. Barrett is 54 and Murray is 49
DJM's TS% is 56% this year, RJ is at 54%.
but TS% just favors guys that shoot more free throws. DJM just hits shots and thats important too, he shoots MUCH better than RJ from all over the court except at the rim. instead of relying on refs to bail you out in close games.
TS% doesnt mean a guy cant shoot... RJ could draw 10 fouls a game htat doesnt make him a good shot maker or shooter.
GustavBahler wrote:DLeethal wrote:TheMTL wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
DDV is not a legit NBA starter on a championship caliber team. Even on the Knicks, he barely closes games and averages mpg similar to bench guys.
DDV was brought here to be our sixth man as insurance for IQ.
DDV quite literally was a starter on a championship team - the 2021 Bucks. That said, I think the starters need a little more firepower to be championship level. As good a fit as DDV and OG are, we don't have enough top-end star power with just Brunson and Randle. Adding another fringe all star guy is probably needed.
Good point about DDV's resume.
Im not so sure we need more scoring from the starters. Its usually the Brunson/Randle show to start the game. OG and DDV are there for the open 3s. JB and Randle attack the rim. After a few minutes, (hopefully IQ's replacement) would sub in, and give the lineup a boost. Who has the hotter hand that night would determine who finishes.
I'm guessing that starting Murray would have the same effect we watched with RJ in the starting lineup. Too many ball dominant players.
Saying a guy isn't a starter for a championship teams a cop out comment. Timofey Mozgov started at center for a championship team. Avery Bradley started for the 2020 Lakers. Danny Green started for the 2020 Lakers and the 2019 Raptors.
Anyone can be a starter on a championship caliber team if they are the right fit.
joec32033 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DLeethal wrote:TheMTL wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
DDV is not a legit NBA starter on a championship caliber team. Even on the Knicks, he barely closes games and averages mpg similar to bench guys.
DDV was brought here to be our sixth man as insurance for IQ.
DDV quite literally was a starter on a championship team - the 2021 Bucks. That said, I think the starters need a little more firepower to be championship level. As good a fit as DDV and OG are, we don't have enough top-end star power with just Brunson and Randle. Adding another fringe all star guy is probably needed.
Good point about DDV's resume.
Im not so sure we need more scoring from the starters. Its usually the Brunson/Randle show to start the game. OG and DDV are there for the open 3s. JB and Randle attack the rim. After a few minutes, (hopefully IQ's replacement) would sub in, and give the lineup a boost. Who has the hotter hand that night would determine who finishes.
I'm guessing that starting Murray would have the same effect we watched with RJ in the starting lineup. Too many ball dominant players.
Saying a guy isn't a starter for a championship teams a cop out comment. Timofey Mozgov started at center for a championship team. Avery Bradley started for the 2020 Lakers. Danny Green started for the 2020 Lakers and the 2019 Raptors.
Anyone can be a starter on a championship caliber team if they are the right fit.
Fit always plays a part in starting on any NBA squad. Thats why RJ is starting for another team. Thats why Grimes is on the bench, and playing better.
I dont see an argument for benching DDV. He was good enough to start for the Bucks, and he's good enough to start for the Knicks.
GustavBahler wrote:joec32033 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DLeethal wrote:TheMTL wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
DDV is not a legit NBA starter on a championship caliber team. Even on the Knicks, he barely closes games and averages mpg similar to bench guys.
DDV was brought here to be our sixth man as insurance for IQ.
DDV quite literally was a starter on a championship team - the 2021 Bucks. That said, I think the starters need a little more firepower to be championship level. As good a fit as DDV and OG are, we don't have enough top-end star power with just Brunson and Randle. Adding another fringe all star guy is probably needed.
Good point about DDV's resume.
Im not so sure we need more scoring from the starters. Its usually the Brunson/Randle show to start the game. OG and DDV are there for the open 3s. JB and Randle attack the rim. After a few minutes, (hopefully IQ's replacement) would sub in, and give the lineup a boost. Who has the hotter hand that night would determine who finishes.
I'm guessing that starting Murray would have the same effect we watched with RJ in the starting lineup. Too many ball dominant players.
Saying a guy isn't a starter for a championship teams a cop out comment. Timofey Mozgov started at center for a championship team. Avery Bradley started for the 2020 Lakers. Danny Green started for the 2020 Lakers and the 2019 Raptors.
Anyone can be a starter on a championship caliber team if they are the right fit.
Fit always plays a part in starting on any NBA squad. Thats why RJ is starting for another team. Thats why Grimes is on the bench, and playing better.
I dont see an argument for benching DDV. He was good enough to start for the Bucks, and he's good enough to start for the Knicks.
100% accurate
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Shades of Jamal Crawford.
GustavBahler wrote:DLeethal wrote:TheMTL wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
DDV is not a legit NBA starter on a championship caliber team. Even on the Knicks, he barely closes games and averages mpg similar to bench guys.
DDV was brought here to be our sixth man as insurance for IQ.
DDV quite literally was a starter on a championship team - the 2021 Bucks. That said, I think the starters need a little more firepower to be championship level. As good a fit as DDV and OG are, we don't have enough top-end star power with just Brunson and Randle. Adding another fringe all star guy is probably needed.
Good point about DDV's resume.
Im not so sure we need more scoring from the starters. Its usually the Brunson/Randle show to start the game. OG and DDV are there for the open 3s. JB and Randle attack the rim. After a few minutes, (hopefully IQ's replacement) would sub in, and give the lineup a boost. Who has the hotter hand that night would determine who finishes.
I'm guessing that starting Murray would have the same effect we watched with RJ in the starting lineup. Too many ball dominant players.
I think the question we need to ask ourselves is - can a Brunson/Randle led starting unit with a championship without more firepower? I personally don't think so. And to me, that means we do need to add more talent to the starters even if it means we sacrifice a little bit of the pretty ball movement we get with DDV in there.
The difference between now, and prior with RJ is that we have an elite 3&D wing in OG now. The offense has always been fine Brunson/RJ/Randle despite poor shooting. The defense was more of the problem. Brunson/Murray/Randle would bring with it a more dangerous offense / unit and the defense would be top tier.