Knicks · DeJounte Murray vs MIA in playoffs - 23/7/7 with 2 steals per game and only 2 TO's in 38mpg on 45/38/100 shooting. (page 7)
nycericanguy wrote:Knixkik wrote:nycericanguy wrote:Knixkik wrote:I’m still so torn on this Murray thing. Knicks starting 5 fits so well together. The sore spot is bench scoring. Obviously Murray can indirectly fix that mixing in with the second unit. The question is, is Murray a big enough difference maker overall to offset the imperfect fit with the starting group.I mean its worth the risk to find out, whats the alternative? let Evan expire and lose the ability to match salary for a star later?
I think at worse he doesn't make us better but I don't see him making us worse.
Also if you stop thinking that he cant shoot, his fit isn't bad.. he's shooting 40% from 3 on high volume and has been improving every year from there, people need to stop calling him a non shooter at this point. the only guys we have shooting 40% 3 and making as many as he does are Brunson and DDV and those guys are ELITE shooters.
The alternative is absolutely not letting Fournier expire. We need that contract value. So trade him in a deal for Brogdon, or Rozier, or Gafford/Shamet, or one of the bogdanovics. Or worst case just pick up his option. We need that contract for a future trade somewhere. I’m just saying I’m torn between adding Murray or simply keeping the balance we have with the starters and adding bench help.
Somewhat related, I’m actually a bit higher on Deuce than grimes. I’ve been a bit down on grimes. He’s an excellent 3&D guy but his upside is somewhat limited beyond that. I’d move him sooner rather than later. His hot shooting tends to come late in games when the outcome is decided and he’s just launching freely. Then you have games like last night where it’s a huge opportunity for him and he’s a non factor. How Deuce stepped up is what you want from your young players against superior teams. Point is I would replace grimes in the rotation with a legit scorer and leave Deuce in his 12-15 mpg role.
ehh the idea of keeping Evan on the bench for a 3rd year just in case we need him as a trade chip... is just... not a good look. I would really hope we dont do that, why not trade him for someone that can actually help?
Brogdon is too old and not good enough to justify benching Duece and Grimes IMO.
And none of those guys would really be assets if we wanted to trade for a star later on. DJM could potentially be though.
Agreed murray is more of an asset. It’s a worthy gamble.
DJM's last season in SA when he ran PG he had an assist rate of 41% which is insane, for comparison Brunson's best has been 29%. Even as a secondary playmaker at shooting guard DJM is still averaging almost as many assists as Brunson.
Brunson's shooting being elite now, maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing to have someone who can create some easier looks for him.
Im not saying he isn't, just by how much?
Better on ball defender perhaps?
From what Im reading I can't fathom Evan and picks as the only cost. Salary too has to go,
And do they want root back? I'd say Grimes gets traded. I'm not concerned about todays Grimes, its what he still projects to. But thats me, silly Nalod just roots strong for the young guys rather than grass is always greener.
I don't think it was "Savvy" to give Deuce the 6 month no trade thing, I think that was his agent wanting a bonafide stretch for him to play and demonstrate his worth. Then if traded he won't get buried on someones bench. Just an opinion. Someone thought it was smart as nobody could ask for him as a throw in.
Im not opposed to the entirety of the DJM inclusion. Read a Tweet this morning that "The softies are gone (Rj, IQ, Obi) and now Thibs has his core of his type of players. Thibs might be evolving some but not entirely toward the finesse game. He wants big punishing dudes. His centers are tough, his PF has power, and now his 3 is versatile.
I don't subscribe to the Post but saw the trade comps to Dave Debusschure and there are some basics there. We traded then an Allstar center in Walt Bellamy and a good scoring guard that was Howard "Butch" Komives. OG and Dave D. both could guard multiple positions, good shooting range, and tough rebiounders. Komives was similar to IQ in he was very good shooter but not a great athlete. Bellamy was a "me" first kind of player and perhaps RJ is not quite of that rep but he needed the ball to be effective. Bellamy traded allowed (undersized) willis to assume the center position sliding over from the 4 and Clyde/Bradley more minutes. Until then Bradley was a 2 and Cazzie the 3. Knicks had talent but needed to consolidate and figure things out.
Willis was was one part Antonio McDyess and Randle. Willis early years was a high flying forward who evolved into more power. His big asset was he had good mid shooting range and could pull defenders out. Different game then. Bellamy continued to play at Allstar level for Detroit then Atlanta. Knicks became gods.
Anyway the point I gather was Debusschure galvanized the teams identity and opened up roles for others. Perhaps OG trade does this going forward.
nycericanguy wrote:I also think DJM might just be a better POINT GUARD than Brunson who is more of a scoring guard.DJM's last season in SA when he ran PG he had an assist rate of 41% which is insane, for comparison Brunson's best has been 29%. Even as a secondary playmaker at shooting guard DJM is still averaging almost as many assists as Brunson.
Brunson's shooting being elite now, maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing to have someone who can create some easier looks for him.
DJM hasn’t affected winning his entire career, I just don’t get the man crush. In today’s game 3 pt shooting wins games. The team that is making them is going to win every time. Brunson already has the ball and puts pressure on the rim. We need another shooter who makes his shots. I like Huerter if he is going to be traded. I just don’t see us trading Grimes, Thibs and the FO love him. I’m going to say it last time and then I’m out. My gut says we pick up some bench reinforcements on the waiver wire after the trade deadline. Or, we use the TPE. Small moves not big swings.
Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I also think DJM might just be a better POINT GUARD than Brunson who is more of a scoring guard.DJM's last season in SA when he ran PG he had an assist rate of 41% which is insane, for comparison Brunson's best has been 29%. Even as a secondary playmaker at shooting guard DJM is still averaging almost as many assists as Brunson.
Brunson's shooting being elite now, maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing to have someone who can create some easier looks for him.
DJM hasn’t affected winning his entire career, I just don’t get the man crush. In today’s game 3 pt shooting wins games. The team that is making them is going to win every time. Brunson already has the ball and puts pressure on the rim. We need another shooter who makes his shots. I like Huerter if he is going to be traded. I just don’t see us trading Grimes, Thibs and the FO love him. I’m going to say it last time and then I’m out. My gut says we pick up some bench reinforcements on the waiver wire after the trade deadline. Or, we use the TPE. Small moves not big swings.
he's shooting 40% from 3 on high volume, and he mostly creates his own looks, which is something you need in the playoffs. he doesn't need to be spoonfed wide open looks like Grimes, OG...etc...
nycericanguy wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I also think DJM might just be a better POINT GUARD than Brunson who is more of a scoring guard.DJM's last season in SA when he ran PG he had an assist rate of 41% which is insane, for comparison Brunson's best has been 29%. Even as a secondary playmaker at shooting guard DJM is still averaging almost as many assists as Brunson.
Brunson's shooting being elite now, maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing to have someone who can create some easier looks for him.
DJM hasn’t affected winning his entire career, I just don’t get the man crush. In today’s game 3 pt shooting wins games. The team that is making them is going to win every time. Brunson already has the ball and puts pressure on the rim. We need another shooter who makes his shots. I like Huerter if he is going to be traded. I just don’t see us trading Grimes, Thibs and the FO love him. I’m going to say it last time and then I’m out. My gut says we pick up some bench reinforcements on the waiver wire after the trade deadline. Or, we use the TPE. Small moves not big swings.
he's shooting 40% from 3 on high volume, and he mostly creates his own looks, which is something you need in the playoffs. he doesn't need to be spoonfed wide open looks like Grimes, OG...etc...
Your not wrong. Those wide looks are from movement. When the iso thing happens players stop moving.
RJ/IQ was more Iso centric. Boston does a lot of this. Its not a bad thing BTW and it does win chips, but you have to get to crunch time in the finals to win a chip. Thus, teams that succeed have to execute both and defend. Simple to type the obvious.
Plug and play Stats are one part of green grass envy. DJM would be a nice player to have but.......
Why is ATL floundering as they are?
What about DJM and the way he left SAS. Both he and Spurs were happy to split. Has he changed? Coach Snyder is not pop but he came from that tree. Thibs is a hard coach to play for also. WE have seen the "Polls" right? Seems like some players love it and appreciate the attention to detail, others reject it. Some are too immature to understand. I kind have read into this might be what he and KAT have evolved into. I kind of thought He and DRose had this mutual intensity. If Thibs gets you and you get him seems like its a really good thing for all. The dog house is were you go if not. Good coaches do this. Great coaches get reputations. Larry, Phil, Pop, and Riles all were somewhat pricks in their own way. Thibs has one chip as assistant coach but not his yet.
Back to DJM, I'll give you this, if our FO and coach wants him Im good. After all, its their conviction based on far greater depth of scouting then glancing at "Basketball Reference" or YouTube clips. Some are good, some are fanboy crap but entertaining highlights.
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Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
Obviously DDV made IQ expendable. As for Murray that contract makes little sense if your not starting/FInishing with him. He won't come cheap as ATL will want some reasonable return given his cost. Im not against it but if its a "clusterphuch" then perhaps we go in a different direction.
Brogdon makes sense given his contract but still a perennial injury risk. The Most recent Fred Katz stuff in the Atlantic depicted knicks prefer any acquisition hold value if a "star" becomes available down the road. EF's contract team option is post draft and a day before FA starts. Its a unique trade chip if needed.
seems teams scouted both the Raptors and knicks and are preparing for them better honing on weaknesses.
GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
Having Murray off the bench obviously isn’t realistic, but Brogdon brings about 80% of what Murray does but is a better shooter and used to coming off the bench.
Knixkik wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
Having Murray off the bench obviously isn’t realistic, but Brogdon brings about 80% of what Murray does but is a better shooter and used to coming off the bench.
Brogdon also has 25 pounds of muscle on Murray. I don't think Murray can hold up guarding bigger wings. Not saying Brogdon is a defensive wizard, but his size lets him compete with wings and let Deuce pressure the ball in the 2nd unit, and gives Brogdon the possibility of running minutes with Brunson as the off guard.
GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
DDV only plays 24mpg though, he's never been a guy that can play 30+... probably due to his size.
Knixkik wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
Having Murray off the bench obviously isn’t realistic, but Brogdon brings about 80% of what Murray does but is a better shooter and used to coming off the bench.
100% disagree. Just don't.
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
Having Murray off the bench obviously isn’t realistic, but Brogdon brings about 80% of what Murray does but is a better shooter and used to coming off the bench.
100% disagree. Just don't.
Murray is not coming to the Knicks to come off the bench. It's completely unrealistic
GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
DDV is not a legit NBA starter on a championship caliber team. Even on the Knicks, he barely closes games and averages mpg similar to bench guys.
DDV was brought here to be our sixth man as insurance for IQ.
TheMTL wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
Having Murray off the bench obviously isn’t realistic, but Brogdon brings about 80% of what Murray does but is a better shooter and used to coming off the bench.
100% disagree. Just don't.
Murray is not coming to the Knicks to come off the bench. It's completely unrealistic
I didn't realize Murray had a choice in the matter. Please help me understand why you think that is the case.
You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Now we have OG who shoots and defends, there's no reason DJM couldn't work as an upgraded version of RJ. He's basically RJ & IQ combined into one player.
TheMTL wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
DDV is not a legit NBA starter on a championship caliber team. Even on the Knicks, he barely closes games and averages mpg similar to bench guys.
DDV was brought here to be our sixth man as insurance for IQ.
DDV quite literally was a starter on a championship team - the 2021 Bucks. That said, I think the starters need a little more firepower to be championship level. As good a fit as DDV and OG are, we don't have enough top-end star power with just Brunson and Randle. Adding another fringe all star guy is probably needed.
nycericanguy wrote:GustavBahler wrote:DDV is a legit starter, one of the best 3pt shooters in the league. Does all the things Grimes didnt do as a starter. Just has to shoot better at home, which is about nerves more than anything IMO. The more time he spends at MSG, the better his numbers should get.Murray would fix most of our problems with the second unit. Have a bad feeling that starting him would lead to one big clusterfunk. Murray off the bench would balance things nicely.
DDV only plays 24mpg though, he's never been a guy that can play 30+... probably due to his size.
Are we really going to pretend that DJM doesn't weigh 180lbs. DiVicenzo literally weighs 20+ lbs more
nycericanguy wrote:whats the point of trading for DJM if we think he fits so poorly with our best players that he shouldn't start?You either think it can work or you don't. I think it can, and you can obviously stagger minutes and he can always be a de-facto 6th man. Doesn't matter if he officially starts.
Because it's worked to well in Atlanta right?