Knicks · Grimes is on the market (page 3)
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PassTheBall wrote:Grimes, Fournier, Dallas 1st for Smart and D. Rose.
Smart was in a huge slump and we let Rose go for a reason.
Clean wrote:PassTheBall wrote:Grimes, Fournier, Dallas 1st for Smart and D. Rose.Smart was in a huge slump and we let Rose go for a reason.
That’s was the past. Maybe we can get them without the pick. Old vets on a losing team get traded.
VDesai wrote:Grimes is in such a bad funk right now, I have a hard time seeing teams valuing him that much in a deal. He went from being close to Spurs era Danny Green to current day Danny Green in the last few months.
Teams scout him and understand our dynamic. He is available BECAUSE he is being underutilized and not a good fit.
Question is not what us fans think his value is. Its what Leon and Co. think and is being offered.
That trade for Smart seems a bit rich for a non starter in my opinion.
While not old, is he breaking down?
Missed 20 games last season and played Half thus far this. I get why memphis might want to move him but at what cost?
Nalod wrote:VDesai wrote:Grimes is in such a bad funk right now, I have a hard time seeing teams valuing him that much in a deal. He went from being close to Spurs era Danny Green to current day Danny Green in the last few months.Teams scout him and understand our dynamic. He is available BECAUSE he is being underutilized and not a good fit.
Question is not what us fans think his value is. Its what Leon and Co. think and is being offered.
That trade for Smart seems a bit rich for a non starter in my opinion.
While not old, is he breaking down?
Missed 20 games last season and played Half thus far this. I get why memphis might want to move him but at what cost?
I'm on this train. Scouts will also understand that he was very solid for a long time last year and a legit POA defender. Those are rare and that particular skill has not gone away.
Grimes will get the same bump as IQ or RJ have with their new'ish roles within a different context.
martin wrote:Nalod wrote:VDesai wrote:Grimes is in such a bad funk right now, I have a hard time seeing teams valuing him that much in a deal. He went from being close to Spurs era Danny Green to current day Danny Green in the last few months.Teams scout him and understand our dynamic. He is available BECAUSE he is being underutilized and not a good fit.
Question is not what us fans think his value is. Its what Leon and Co. think and is being offered.
That trade for Smart seems a bit rich for a non starter in my opinion.
While not old, is he breaking down?
Missed 20 games last season and played Half thus far this. I get why memphis might want to move him but at what cost?I'm on this train. Scouts will also understand that he was very solid for a long time last year and a legit POA defender. Those are rare and that particular skill has not gone away.
Grimes will get the same bump as IQ or RJ have with their new'ish roles within a different context.
Scouts may get that, and I don't doubt there's teams that covet but GMs see how he's playing this season and its all about negotiation. In any event, I've been bullish Grimes, but at the moment his skillset seems redundant and what we need from him, or the player who gets his 20 minutes, is scoring and shot creation and he's really struggling with that. I feel like moving on might be the right thing for the Knicks, just based on the role they are giving him and what they need from it. He will also end up in the Quickley type of contract situation next year, so in part, they have to think ahead.
VDesai wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:VDesai wrote:Grimes is in such a bad funk right now, I have a hard time seeing teams valuing him that much in a deal. He went from being close to Spurs era Danny Green to current day Danny Green in the last few months.Teams scout him and understand our dynamic. He is available BECAUSE he is being underutilized and not a good fit.
Question is not what us fans think his value is. Its what Leon and Co. think and is being offered.
That trade for Smart seems a bit rich for a non starter in my opinion.
While not old, is he breaking down?
Missed 20 games last season and played Half thus far this. I get why memphis might want to move him but at what cost?I'm on this train. Scouts will also understand that he was very solid for a long time last year and a legit POA defender. Those are rare and that particular skill has not gone away.
Grimes will get the same bump as IQ or RJ have with their new'ish roles within a different context.
Scouts may get that, and I don't doubt there's teams that covet but GMs see how he's playing this season and its all about negotiation. In any event, I've been bullish Grimes, but at the moment his skillset seems redundant and what we need from him, or the player who gets his 20 minutes, is scoring and shot creation and he's really struggling with that. I feel like moving on might be the right thing for the Knicks, just based on the role they are giving him and what they need from it. He will also end up in the Quickley type of contract situation next year, so in part, they have to think ahead.
You frame that thought as though FO has a big disconnect with their scouts and perhaps are totally uninformed about players in general. Maybe there are some dumb GM's and owners who think that way but they are exceptions rather than rules.
FO's are not like fans unless their owners are involved too heavily. Most FO's have cutthroat negotiators and scouts intertwined in the same process, just like any other well staffed non-NBA entity/company out there.
It's not really a thing, unless you think Leon is a complete dipshit and won't bring it up in talks with other teams.
And if Leon is working with a team that doesn't understand that 101 concept, you know what Leon does? He hangs up the phone and moves to a different trade team.
martin wrote:VDesai wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:VDesai wrote:Grimes is in such a bad funk right now, I have a hard time seeing teams valuing him that much in a deal. He went from being close to Spurs era Danny Green to current day Danny Green in the last few months.Teams scout him and understand our dynamic. He is available BECAUSE he is being underutilized and not a good fit.
Question is not what us fans think his value is. Its what Leon and Co. think and is being offered.
That trade for Smart seems a bit rich for a non starter in my opinion.
While not old, is he breaking down?
Missed 20 games last season and played Half thus far this. I get why memphis might want to move him but at what cost?I'm on this train. Scouts will also understand that he was very solid for a long time last year and a legit POA defender. Those are rare and that particular skill has not gone away.
Grimes will get the same bump as IQ or RJ have with their new'ish roles within a different context.
Scouts may get that, and I don't doubt there's teams that covet but GMs see how he's playing this season and its all about negotiation. In any event, I've been bullish Grimes, but at the moment his skillset seems redundant and what we need from him, or the player who gets his 20 minutes, is scoring and shot creation and he's really struggling with that. I feel like moving on might be the right thing for the Knicks, just based on the role they are giving him and what they need from it. He will also end up in the Quickley type of contract situation next year, so in part, they have to think ahead.You frame that thought as though FO has a big disconnect with their scouts and perhaps are totally uninformed about players in general. Maybe there are some dumb GM's and owners who think that way but they are exceptions rather than rules.
FO's are not like fans unless their owners are involved too heavily. Most FO's have cutthroat negotiators and scouts intertwined in the same process, just like any other well staffed non-NBA entity/company out there.
It's not really a thing, unless you think Leon is a complete dipshit and won't bring it up in talks with other teams.
And if Leon is working with a team that doesn't understand that 101 concept, you know what Leon does? He hangs up the phone and moves to a different trade team.
Yeah, but there's a limited amount of teams out there, he can't call infinitely. Making a simple statement here- I'm just expressing concern that the recent slump has lowered some ceiling projections from Grimes and he's not gonna bring as much value back as he once was commanding in negotiations.
VDesai wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:VDesai wrote:Grimes is in such a bad funk right now, I have a hard time seeing teams valuing him that much in a deal. He went from being close to Spurs era Danny Green to current day Danny Green in the last few months.Teams scout him and understand our dynamic. He is available BECAUSE he is being underutilized and not a good fit.
Question is not what us fans think his value is. Its what Leon and Co. think and is being offered.
That trade for Smart seems a bit rich for a non starter in my opinion.
While not old, is he breaking down?
Missed 20 games last season and played Half thus far this. I get why memphis might want to move him but at what cost?I'm on this train. Scouts will also understand that he was very solid for a long time last year and a legit POA defender. Those are rare and that particular skill has not gone away.
Grimes will get the same bump as IQ or RJ have with their new'ish roles within a different context.
Scouts may get that, and I don't doubt there's teams that covet but GMs see how he's playing this season and its all about negotiation. In any event, I've been bullish Grimes, but at the moment his skillset seems redundant and what we need from him, or the player who gets his 20 minutes, is scoring and shot creation and he's really struggling with that. I feel like moving on might be the right thing for the Knicks, just based on the role they are giving him and what they need from it. He will also end up in the Quickley type of contract situation next year, so in part, they have to think ahead.You frame that thought as though FO has a big disconnect with their scouts and perhaps are totally uninformed about players in general. Maybe there are some dumb GM's and owners who think that way but they are exceptions rather than rules.
FO's are not like fans unless their owners are involved too heavily. Most FO's have cutthroat negotiators and scouts intertwined in the same process, just like any other well staffed non-NBA entity/company out there.
It's not really a thing, unless you think Leon is a complete dipshit and won't bring it up in talks with other teams.
And if Leon is working with a team that doesn't understand that 101 concept, you know what Leon does? He hangs up the phone and moves to a different trade team.
Yeah, but there's a limited amount of teams out there, he can't call infinitely. Making a simple statement here- I'm just expressing concern that the recent slump has lowered some ceiling projections from Grimes and he's not gonna bring as much value back as he once was commanding in negotiations.
I don't mean to get after you so please pardon my directness, this will definitely come out wrong.
But your thought process is that scouts and FO types who have studied and been around athletes for decades and decades and mostly their whole lives and have most likely been athletes themselves may have forgotten that a young 23yo, 25th draft pick kid who has played only 160 NBA games in his life - 2 years worth of games stretched over 3 years - has some normal ups and downs and wouldn't understand that concept of a kid having a few down months in a career of games?
Have you even been a part of a high level negotiation before involving millions of dollars and resources? Cause that's the lens we should be aiming to look through. We should not be bringing $3 discount coupon thoughts to the table.
Leon is going to bring up this story and I think it holds value: Grimes is a talented kid but he and his personality probably does not adjust to pressure situations easily or smoothly, but he ABSOLUTELY has all the talent to get over that hump and then excel (as recently as guarding Jimmy Butler on one leg, that shit REALLY counts in the eyes of every scout). Coming out of high school, he was a top recruited kid, 5 star recruit. He bombed out his first 2 seasons in college and transfered to Houston, back to a more familiar place for him. He EXCELLED. Went nuts in the NCAA tourney.
He is just a slow adjuster to new or different or difficult environments, he is not a low talented or low IQ kid. It's a personality and slow growth thing.
So it's more likely that he will absolutely flourish but just when he is ready and in a position or role or team to do so.
That's the story Leon is negotiating with, not some 2 month under performance that can be talked away by an overload of guards on team.
I honestly have my questions on whether he will flourish. I think he complained about being a spot shooter early in the year and now he's had the opportunity to have more of a green light to score in a lot of ways off the bench and has been awful. Still has several games to find his way into the role, but for a guy who has been getting regular minutes this whole time to be struggling like this is a bit surprising.
Take all of the things you mention - that he was a 5 star recruit, but he dissapointed at Kansas and had to transfer. That he was taken in the mid 20s and wasn't valued earlier than that. He earned a spot as a starter and played himself out of it. He's a guy with a lot of ups and downs. That might be who the guy is and the way a lot of other teams are looking at him.
It was yet another year of RJ taking 15+ shots a game and being dead last in the rotation in like all the EF% numbers starting w/ EFG%
IQ was stuck behind Jalen.
OG trade NEEDED to happen and we got very lucky finding a trading partner who valued what we had as much as we valued what they had.
Most of the guys being mentioned are redundant. Brown and JHart are basically the same. I dont want a chucker like Rozier or Clarkson. To me it's Brogdon or bust. He's really the guy worth paying for.
If we can add Brogdon and possibly get Mitch back we can fight for a title. Our starting 5 is fantastic and the bench ends up Brogdon/JHart/Mitch and that's an 8 man rotation that really beat you down and shoot it
VDesai wrote:2 months in the context of Grimes career is actually a good chunk of it. I think you're making just as many assumptions as I am about his value right now. But in any event, even if you covet someone highly, you still have to mark to market someone's value relative to what they are showing.I honestly have my questions on whether he will flourish. I think he complained about being a spot shooter early in the year and now he's had the opportunity to have more of a green light to score in a lot of ways off the bench and has been awful. Still has several games to find his way into the role, but for a guy who has been getting regular minutes this whole time to be struggling like this is a bit surprising.
Take all of the things you mention - that he was a 5 star recruit, but he dissapointed at Kansas and had to transfer. That he was taken in the mid 20s and wasn't valued earlier than that. He earned a spot as a starter and played himself out of it. He's a guy with a lot of ups and downs. That might be who the guy is and the way a lot of other teams are looking at him.
It's 20 games. Versus an NBA career of 160 game and his first hint of playoff games that informs all of the eval you do on an athlete with the addition of character, body, BBallIQ.
20 games is nowhere near the the amount of information actual scouts and FO types base their evaluation and conclusions on. Like you are nowhere near the ball park and in the wrong state on the opposite end of the country level incorrect.
That far off.
You can have an inept GM or owner on the opposite side of the phone that thinks 20 games is a good chunk to eval and attribute a negotiating point to someone on... but then you realize you are talking to and dealing with the wrong person and team. And you abruptly hang up the phone right there and end negotiations and try to flip Grimes to a different team that'll give you the goods of what your first team may want but just not Grimes, it'll be something else of their perceived value.
I literally barely know anything about basketball relative to what I participate in on the volleyball side of things but the general stuff like this is generally translatable.
I thought some either GM’s or media had voted him “Player most likley to break out in the east” preseason.
But thats context…..Over valued and now undervalued.
Super important to Grimes is to land in a place where he can get playing time to earn his next deal.
A team that does that also wants him to play. So its a mutual type of thing. Which team is that and has a player that fits our needs to trade with?
Nalod wrote:Maybe Grimes value by fans was over stated and thus what returns might disappoint.
I thought some either GM’s or media had voted him “Player most likley to break out in the east” preseason.But thats context…..Over valued and now undervalued.
Super important to Grimes is to land in a place where he can get playing time to earn his next deal.
A team that does that also wants him to play. So its a mutual type of thing. Which team is that and has a player that fits our needs to trade with?
Utah, but their trade demands for Clarkson are batsh#t. And honestly, I wouldn't even do Grimes for Clarkson straight if it were possible.
1. Brogdan - The perfect fit. Played with all our rivals, Mil, Indy, Bos. Surely he has some revenge on his mind if he comes here. Supplement this by also adding Gallo and we would be ready to take them on. Gallo apparently has some revenge on his mind for Bos.
2. Smart & D. Rose - Another defensive minded player to pair with OG, Hart, Deuce. Know’s how to defend our rivals. A sprinkle of D. Rose when you need some points.