Knicks · Will the ascending rise of iHart, make Mitch expendable? (page 3)
Panos wrote:martin wrote:fishmike wrote:Correct. Every single team out there that has been dying to trade for OG, all of those teams would have already committed to $30-35+M for OG (and maybe he still opts into that first year, but the rest will be north of 30 easy).Panos wrote:OG is not signing for $25. JB and JR are both underpaid. The cap continues to go up. I would expect Detroit to make IHart a big offer like 4 years $100/mm. They are closer than they appear. I would also expect us to do what we can to try and keep him. He's been great. Time will tell and at this point I really trust Leon and Brock. I would expect OG to cost $35-40mm a yearDLeethal wrote:Sorry, I'd way rather pay iHart $20M than OG north of $30M. Again, I think $25M for OG is the right number. Same as the other Big 2: JB and JR.nycericanguy wrote:OG will get the bag. I do think he will be as fair as possible though. But he gonna get 30 at least I think.DLeethal wrote:curious what OG signs for, if he takes $30m then it makes me think these guys all want to be here and will take team friendly deals. Can't imagine we traded for OG without having a number in place, and I'd be surprised if that number was 40.nycericanguy wrote:That would be ideal, it really all depends on who has cap space this year. All it takes is one team who needs a young C. We've been able to secure the guys we want, who want to be here, at reasonable deals across the board. I am hopeful this will fall in line with that.DLeethal wrote:we'll see, I think we resign him for 4/60mnycericanguy wrote:iHart is only 25. Doesn't really matter if he's never been that kind of player before, he's proving he is now as he's entering his prime years. Brunson didn't play more than 25 mpg either until he was 25.DLeethal wrote:if he's willing to leave for 20m so be it, we cant be the ones to pay it. Precious is good insurance for that.nycericanguy wrote:I could see a team giving him 20-25M. iHart is proving damn well he's a 30+ mpg player. He's playing C on the leagues best defense, winning games all while playing 30+. I think he will draw heavy interest. I hope we can keep him. I think he might see 20M offers and we will need to max him but I haven't looked at the teams with cap space yet.BingBong wrote:ehh I dont see teams blowing a ton of cap on Ihart. he wouldn't start in BOS or PHI either. how many contenders WOULD he start on? and how many losing teams would pay him big money?DLeethal wrote:I would pay Mitch and iHart a combined 30M I think and keep that platoon intact. I think if iHart requires 20-25M salary you have to move Mitch though. You have to have reasonable payroll balance. iHart is a damn monster though, he's durable and worth a slight overpay because of how well he's played. I would not under any circumstance let another team steal him from us.You know that if Will Hardy notices iHart's talent and value to the Knicks, every other coach in the NBA notices it as well. Because of it, I don't think iHart wants anything less than being a starter on a team. If he goes on the free market, he's going to get paid big money as he will have a lot of options and a bidding war will take place. I'm just a fan, so my opinion is as good (or bad) as the next fan, but I wouldn't let iHart go. He'd probably end up in Boston or Philadelphia...and of course the Lakers would be weighing in, as they are always doing.
I don't see it, I think he's a $15m player more or less who can play 24-26mpg. He's a in a perfect platoon with Mitch, neither are 30+mpg players IMO.
but he's never been more than 24-25mpg player, same as Mitch. I can't ever remember a C getting $20m while averaging the numbers he does. He won't even average 10 and 10, and he doesn't space the floor.
He has a great role here, but he's a limited player.
He's really not that limited, he can do a lot of things from the C position, the number of guys who can replicate his skillset you can probably count on one hand. The only thing he's limited with is shooting deep ball. But he can dribble, pass, face up and go downhill, great touch around the basket, strong power finisher, and a really good defender. He's durable and hits his FTs. Rare breed at C IMO.
That's a no brainer.
I don't buy it. OG is not some superstar. It's not like Toronto was winning games with him. There's just some crazy synergy going on with the Knicks right now and he's part of it. As blexec mentioned, it could also be partly addition by subtraction. But I wouldn't pay him $35-40. I would let him walk and let FO find another player just like they got JB, DDV, Hart, and iHart. Cannot tie that amount of money up in OG
You don't consider what OG does on the defensively end of things star level? Cause he is about to get All Defensive team selection while being incredibly solid on the offensive end of things.
If you had a guy that was about to get All Offensive team selection and was incredibly solid on the defensive end of things, what would you call that person?
Durant? A litter bit younger Steph Curry? Klay before he got old? Tatum? Who is your comparison?
Also, let's us check back in during the summer and see who enjoys crow more and who will be eating.
As well, letting OG walk under those circumstances IMHO would be the dumbest move in the history of GM's.
martin wrote:Panos wrote:martin wrote:fishmike wrote:Correct. Every single team out there that has been dying to trade for OG, all of those teams would have already committed to $30-35+M for OG (and maybe he still opts into that first year, but the rest will be north of 30 easy).Panos wrote:OG is not signing for $25. JB and JR are both underpaid. The cap continues to go up. I would expect Detroit to make IHart a big offer like 4 years $100/mm. They are closer than they appear. I would also expect us to do what we can to try and keep him. He's been great. Time will tell and at this point I really trust Leon and Brock. I would expect OG to cost $35-40mm a yearDLeethal wrote:Sorry, I'd way rather pay iHart $20M than OG north of $30M. Again, I think $25M for OG is the right number. Same as the other Big 2: JB and JR.nycericanguy wrote:OG will get the bag. I do think he will be as fair as possible though. But he gonna get 30 at least I think.DLeethal wrote:curious what OG signs for, if he takes $30m then it makes me think these guys all want to be here and will take team friendly deals. Can't imagine we traded for OG without having a number in place, and I'd be surprised if that number was 40.nycericanguy wrote:That would be ideal, it really all depends on who has cap space this year. All it takes is one team who needs a young C. We've been able to secure the guys we want, who want to be here, at reasonable deals across the board. I am hopeful this will fall in line with that.DLeethal wrote:we'll see, I think we resign him for 4/60mnycericanguy wrote:iHart is only 25. Doesn't really matter if he's never been that kind of player before, he's proving he is now as he's entering his prime years. Brunson didn't play more than 25 mpg either until he was 25.DLeethal wrote:if he's willing to leave for 20m so be it, we cant be the ones to pay it. Precious is good insurance for that.nycericanguy wrote:I could see a team giving him 20-25M. iHart is proving damn well he's a 30+ mpg player. He's playing C on the leagues best defense, winning games all while playing 30+. I think he will draw heavy interest. I hope we can keep him. I think he might see 20M offers and we will need to max him but I haven't looked at the teams with cap space yet.BingBong wrote:ehh I dont see teams blowing a ton of cap on Ihart. he wouldn't start in BOS or PHI either. how many contenders WOULD he start on? and how many losing teams would pay him big money?DLeethal wrote:I would pay Mitch and iHart a combined 30M I think and keep that platoon intact. I think if iHart requires 20-25M salary you have to move Mitch though. You have to have reasonable payroll balance. iHart is a damn monster though, he's durable and worth a slight overpay because of how well he's played. I would not under any circumstance let another team steal him from us.You know that if Will Hardy notices iHart's talent and value to the Knicks, every other coach in the NBA notices it as well. Because of it, I don't think iHart wants anything less than being a starter on a team. If he goes on the free market, he's going to get paid big money as he will have a lot of options and a bidding war will take place. I'm just a fan, so my opinion is as good (or bad) as the next fan, but I wouldn't let iHart go. He'd probably end up in Boston or Philadelphia...and of course the Lakers would be weighing in, as they are always doing.
I don't see it, I think he's a $15m player more or less who can play 24-26mpg. He's a in a perfect platoon with Mitch, neither are 30+mpg players IMO.
but he's never been more than 24-25mpg player, same as Mitch. I can't ever remember a C getting $20m while averaging the numbers he does. He won't even average 10 and 10, and he doesn't space the floor.
He has a great role here, but he's a limited player.
He's really not that limited, he can do a lot of things from the C position, the number of guys who can replicate his skillset you can probably count on one hand. The only thing he's limited with is shooting deep ball. But he can dribble, pass, face up and go downhill, great touch around the basket, strong power finisher, and a really good defender. He's durable and hits his FTs. Rare breed at C IMO.
That's a no brainer.
I don't buy it. OG is not some superstar. It's not like Toronto was winning games with him. There's just some crazy synergy going on with the Knicks right now and he's part of it. As blexec mentioned, it could also be partly addition by subtraction. But I wouldn't pay him $35-40. I would let him walk and let FO find another player just like they got JB, DDV, Hart, and iHart. Cannot tie that amount of money up in OGYou don't consider what OG does on the defensively end of things star level? Cause he is about to get All Defensive team selection while being incredibly solid on the offensive end of things.
If you had a guy that was about to get All Offensive team selection and was incredibly solid on the defensive end of things, what would you call that person?
Durant? A litter bit younger Steph Curry? Klay before he got old? Tatum? Who is your comparison?
Also, let's us check back in during the summer and see who enjoys crow more and who will be eating.
As well, letting OG walk under those circumstances IMHO would be the dumbest move in the history of GM's.
You're really comparing OG to Durant, Steph Curry, and Tatum? I'm not sure of the credibility of your argument here.
If you're arguing that defense should get paid as much as offense, I haven't see that in the history of this league.
As for comps, you can compare OG to Mutombo or Ben Wallace. OG probably has more offense that both of them, but they probably had even more defensive impact.
Actually I think the best comparison is probably Ron Artest. They even play the same position.
I'm happy to eat crow if I'm wrong, BTW. I'll bookmark this page, and we can revisit it and you can serve me some crow pie.
What exactly would make me wrong though? The Knicks actually signing him for too much doesn't make me wrong. Its if we regret tying up the money. But fine, let's just see what they pay him. That is quantifiable.
(Too bad that this debate is in the wrong thread.)
Panos wrote:martin wrote:Panos wrote:martin wrote:fishmike wrote:Correct. Every single team out there that has been dying to trade for OG, all of those teams would have already committed to $30-35+M for OG (and maybe he still opts into that first year, but the rest will be north of 30 easy).Panos wrote:OG is not signing for $25. JB and JR are both underpaid. The cap continues to go up. I would expect Detroit to make IHart a big offer like 4 years $100/mm. They are closer than they appear. I would also expect us to do what we can to try and keep him. He's been great. Time will tell and at this point I really trust Leon and Brock. I would expect OG to cost $35-40mm a yearDLeethal wrote:Sorry, I'd way rather pay iHart $20M than OG north of $30M. Again, I think $25M for OG is the right number. Same as the other Big 2: JB and JR.nycericanguy wrote:OG will get the bag. I do think he will be as fair as possible though. But he gonna get 30 at least I think.DLeethal wrote:curious what OG signs for, if he takes $30m then it makes me think these guys all want to be here and will take team friendly deals. Can't imagine we traded for OG without having a number in place, and I'd be surprised if that number was 40.nycericanguy wrote:That would be ideal, it really all depends on who has cap space this year. All it takes is one team who needs a young C. We've been able to secure the guys we want, who want to be here, at reasonable deals across the board. I am hopeful this will fall in line with that.DLeethal wrote:we'll see, I think we resign him for 4/60mnycericanguy wrote:iHart is only 25. Doesn't really matter if he's never been that kind of player before, he's proving he is now as he's entering his prime years. Brunson didn't play more than 25 mpg either until he was 25.DLeethal wrote:if he's willing to leave for 20m so be it, we cant be the ones to pay it. Precious is good insurance for that.nycericanguy wrote:I could see a team giving him 20-25M. iHart is proving damn well he's a 30+ mpg player. He's playing C on the leagues best defense, winning games all while playing 30+. I think he will draw heavy interest. I hope we can keep him. I think he might see 20M offers and we will need to max him but I haven't looked at the teams with cap space yet.BingBong wrote:ehh I dont see teams blowing a ton of cap on Ihart. he wouldn't start in BOS or PHI either. how many contenders WOULD he start on? and how many losing teams would pay him big money?DLeethal wrote:I would pay Mitch and iHart a combined 30M I think and keep that platoon intact. I think if iHart requires 20-25M salary you have to move Mitch though. You have to have reasonable payroll balance. iHart is a damn monster though, he's durable and worth a slight overpay because of how well he's played. I would not under any circumstance let another team steal him from us.You know that if Will Hardy notices iHart's talent and value to the Knicks, every other coach in the NBA notices it as well. Because of it, I don't think iHart wants anything less than being a starter on a team. If he goes on the free market, he's going to get paid big money as he will have a lot of options and a bidding war will take place. I'm just a fan, so my opinion is as good (or bad) as the next fan, but I wouldn't let iHart go. He'd probably end up in Boston or Philadelphia...and of course the Lakers would be weighing in, as they are always doing.
I don't see it, I think he's a $15m player more or less who can play 24-26mpg. He's a in a perfect platoon with Mitch, neither are 30+mpg players IMO.
but he's never been more than 24-25mpg player, same as Mitch. I can't ever remember a C getting $20m while averaging the numbers he does. He won't even average 10 and 10, and he doesn't space the floor.
He has a great role here, but he's a limited player.
He's really not that limited, he can do a lot of things from the C position, the number of guys who can replicate his skillset you can probably count on one hand. The only thing he's limited with is shooting deep ball. But he can dribble, pass, face up and go downhill, great touch around the basket, strong power finisher, and a really good defender. He's durable and hits his FTs. Rare breed at C IMO.
That's a no brainer.
I don't buy it. OG is not some superstar. It's not like Toronto was winning games with him. There's just some crazy synergy going on with the Knicks right now and he's part of it. As blexec mentioned, it could also be partly addition by subtraction. But I wouldn't pay him $35-40. I would let him walk and let FO find another player just like they got JB, DDV, Hart, and iHart. Cannot tie that amount of money up in OGYou don't consider what OG does on the defensively end of things star level? Cause he is about to get All Defensive team selection while being incredibly solid on the offensive end of things.
If you had a guy that was about to get All Offensive team selection and was incredibly solid on the defensive end of things, what would you call that person?
Durant? A litter bit younger Steph Curry? Klay before he got old? Tatum? Who is your comparison?
Also, let's us check back in during the summer and see who enjoys crow more and who will be eating.
As well, letting OG walk under those circumstances IMHO would be the dumbest move in the history of GM's.
You're really comparing OG to Durant, Steph Curry, and Tatum? I'm not sure of the credibility of your argument here.
If you're arguing that defense should get paid as much as offense, I haven't see that in the history of this league.
As for comps, you can compare OG to Mutombo or Ben Wallace. OG probably has more offense that both of them, but they probably had even more defensive impact.
Actually I think the best comparison is probably Ron Artest. They even play the same position.
I'm happy to eat crow if I'm wrong, BTW. I'll bookmark this page, and we can revisit it and you can serve me some crow pie.
What exactly would make me wrong though? The Knicks actually signing him for too much doesn't make me wrong. Its if we regret tying up the money. But fine, let's just see what they pay him. That is quantifiable.
(Too bad that this debate is in the wrong thread.)
Panos, you think that I think I'm comparing OG to Durant, Steph and Tatum in the way you put it?
You are either insanely naive or purposely being stubbornly stupid. I will pass on the rest, not worth it discussing at that level.
martin wrote:Panos wrote:martin wrote:Panos wrote:martin wrote:fishmike wrote:Correct. Every single team out there that has been dying to trade for OG, all of those teams would have already committed to $30-35+M for OG (and maybe he still opts into that first year, but the rest will be north of 30 easy).Panos wrote:OG is not signing for $25. JB and JR are both underpaid. The cap continues to go up. I would expect Detroit to make IHart a big offer like 4 years $100/mm. They are closer than they appear. I would also expect us to do what we can to try and keep him. He's been great. Time will tell and at this point I really trust Leon and Brock. I would expect OG to cost $35-40mm a yearDLeethal wrote:Sorry, I'd way rather pay iHart $20M than OG north of $30M. Again, I think $25M for OG is the right number. Same as the other Big 2: JB and JR.nycericanguy wrote:OG will get the bag. I do think he will be as fair as possible though. But he gonna get 30 at least I think.DLeethal wrote:curious what OG signs for, if he takes $30m then it makes me think these guys all want to be here and will take team friendly deals. Can't imagine we traded for OG without having a number in place, and I'd be surprised if that number was 40.nycericanguy wrote:That would be ideal, it really all depends on who has cap space this year. All it takes is one team who needs a young C. We've been able to secure the guys we want, who want to be here, at reasonable deals across the board. I am hopeful this will fall in line with that.DLeethal wrote:we'll see, I think we resign him for 4/60mnycericanguy wrote:iHart is only 25. Doesn't really matter if he's never been that kind of player before, he's proving he is now as he's entering his prime years. Brunson didn't play more than 25 mpg either until he was 25.DLeethal wrote:if he's willing to leave for 20m so be it, we cant be the ones to pay it. Precious is good insurance for that.nycericanguy wrote:I could see a team giving him 20-25M. iHart is proving damn well he's a 30+ mpg player. He's playing C on the leagues best defense, winning games all while playing 30+. I think he will draw heavy interest. I hope we can keep him. I think he might see 20M offers and we will need to max him but I haven't looked at the teams with cap space yet.BingBong wrote:ehh I dont see teams blowing a ton of cap on Ihart. he wouldn't start in BOS or PHI either. how many contenders WOULD he start on? and how many losing teams would pay him big money?DLeethal wrote:I would pay Mitch and iHart a combined 30M I think and keep that platoon intact. I think if iHart requires 20-25M salary you have to move Mitch though. You have to have reasonable payroll balance. iHart is a damn monster though, he's durable and worth a slight overpay because of how well he's played. I would not under any circumstance let another team steal him from us.You know that if Will Hardy notices iHart's talent and value to the Knicks, every other coach in the NBA notices it as well. Because of it, I don't think iHart wants anything less than being a starter on a team. If he goes on the free market, he's going to get paid big money as he will have a lot of options and a bidding war will take place. I'm just a fan, so my opinion is as good (or bad) as the next fan, but I wouldn't let iHart go. He'd probably end up in Boston or Philadelphia...and of course the Lakers would be weighing in, as they are always doing.
I don't see it, I think he's a $15m player more or less who can play 24-26mpg. He's a in a perfect platoon with Mitch, neither are 30+mpg players IMO.
but he's never been more than 24-25mpg player, same as Mitch. I can't ever remember a C getting $20m while averaging the numbers he does. He won't even average 10 and 10, and he doesn't space the floor.
He has a great role here, but he's a limited player.
He's really not that limited, he can do a lot of things from the C position, the number of guys who can replicate his skillset you can probably count on one hand. The only thing he's limited with is shooting deep ball. But he can dribble, pass, face up and go downhill, great touch around the basket, strong power finisher, and a really good defender. He's durable and hits his FTs. Rare breed at C IMO.
That's a no brainer.
I don't buy it. OG is not some superstar. It's not like Toronto was winning games with him. There's just some crazy synergy going on with the Knicks right now and he's part of it. As blexec mentioned, it could also be partly addition by subtraction. But I wouldn't pay him $35-40. I would let him walk and let FO find another player just like they got JB, DDV, Hart, and iHart. Cannot tie that amount of money up in OG
You don't consider what OG does on the defensively end of things star level? Cause he is about to get All Defensive team selection while being incredibly solid on the offensive end of things.
If you had a guy that was about to get All Offensive team selection and was incredibly solid on the defensive end of things, what would you call that person?
Durant? A litter bit younger Steph Curry? Klay before he got old? Tatum? Who is your comparison?
Also, let's us check back in during the summer and see who enjoys crow more and who will be eating.As well, letting OG walk under those circumstances IMHO would be the dumbest move in the history of GM's.
You're really comparing OG to Durant, Steph Curry, and Tatum? I'm not sure of the credibility of your argument here.
If you're arguing that defense should get paid as much as offense, I haven't see that in the history of this league.
As for comps, you can compare OG to Mutombo or Ben Wallace. OG probably has more offense that both of them, but they probably had even more defensive impact.
Actually I think the best comparison is probably Ron Artest. They even play the same position.
I'm happy to eat crow if I'm wrong, BTW. I'll bookmark this page, and we can revisit it and you can serve me some crow pie.
What exactly would make me wrong though? The Knicks actually signing him for too much doesn't make me wrong. Its if we regret tying up the money. But fine, let's just see what they pay him. That is quantifiable.
(Too bad that this debate is in the wrong thread.)Panos, you think that I think I'm comparing OG to Durant, Steph and Tatum in the way you put it?
You are either insanely naive or purposely being stubbornly stupid. I will pass on the rest, not worth it discussing at that level.
Dude, you are just now being rude.
I just repeated back to you what you said in your post. Why are you mentioning Durant and Curry if you are not comparing them? What was the actual purpose of the highlighted line?
You know for someone who is supposed to uphold the integrity of conversation here, you're pretty loose with the insults.
You will not be right or wrong, you will just be wrong in the way you mostly likely do not have a good feel for what level of contracts are being given out and you are also not considering how much leverage OG has in determining what his next contract will be. As a very very good and unique player - and a player who you are underestimating what OG would get on any playoff team, literally ANY playoff team would off OG $30+ without even thinking about it.
You are MS level wrong with "OG Trade is BAD" statement.
Panos wrote:martin wrote:Panos wrote:martin wrote:Panos wrote:martin wrote:fishmike wrote:Correct. Every single team out there that has been dying to trade for OG, all of those teams would have already committed to $30-35+M for OG (and maybe he still opts into that first year, but the rest will be north of 30 easy).Panos wrote:OG is not signing for $25. JB and JR are both underpaid. The cap continues to go up. I would expect Detroit to make IHart a big offer like 4 years $100/mm. They are closer than they appear. I would also expect us to do what we can to try and keep him. He's been great. Time will tell and at this point I really trust Leon and Brock. I would expect OG to cost $35-40mm a yearDLeethal wrote:Sorry, I'd way rather pay iHart $20M than OG north of $30M. Again, I think $25M for OG is the right number. Same as the other Big 2: JB and JR.nycericanguy wrote:OG will get the bag. I do think he will be as fair as possible though. But he gonna get 30 at least I think.DLeethal wrote:curious what OG signs for, if he takes $30m then it makes me think these guys all want to be here and will take team friendly deals. Can't imagine we traded for OG without having a number in place, and I'd be surprised if that number was 40.nycericanguy wrote:That would be ideal, it really all depends on who has cap space this year. All it takes is one team who needs a young C. We've been able to secure the guys we want, who want to be here, at reasonable deals across the board. I am hopeful this will fall in line with that.DLeethal wrote:we'll see, I think we resign him for 4/60mnycericanguy wrote:iHart is only 25. Doesn't really matter if he's never been that kind of player before, he's proving he is now as he's entering his prime years. Brunson didn't play more than 25 mpg either until he was 25.DLeethal wrote:if he's willing to leave for 20m so be it, we cant be the ones to pay it. Precious is good insurance for that.nycericanguy wrote:I could see a team giving him 20-25M. iHart is proving damn well he's a 30+ mpg player. He's playing C on the leagues best defense, winning games all while playing 30+. I think he will draw heavy interest. I hope we can keep him. I think he might see 20M offers and we will need to max him but I haven't looked at the teams with cap space yet.BingBong wrote:ehh I dont see teams blowing a ton of cap on Ihart. he wouldn't start in BOS or PHI either. how many contenders WOULD he start on? and how many losing teams would pay him big money?DLeethal wrote:I would pay Mitch and iHart a combined 30M I think and keep that platoon intact. I think if iHart requires 20-25M salary you have to move Mitch though. You have to have reasonable payroll balance. iHart is a damn monster though, he's durable and worth a slight overpay because of how well he's played. I would not under any circumstance let another team steal him from us.You know that if Will Hardy notices iHart's talent and value to the Knicks, every other coach in the NBA notices it as well. Because of it, I don't think iHart wants anything less than being a starter on a team. If he goes on the free market, he's going to get paid big money as he will have a lot of options and a bidding war will take place. I'm just a fan, so my opinion is as good (or bad) as the next fan, but I wouldn't let iHart go. He'd probably end up in Boston or Philadelphia...and of course the Lakers would be weighing in, as they are always doing.
I don't see it, I think he's a $15m player more or less who can play 24-26mpg. He's a in a perfect platoon with Mitch, neither are 30+mpg players IMO.
but he's never been more than 24-25mpg player, same as Mitch. I can't ever remember a C getting $20m while averaging the numbers he does. He won't even average 10 and 10, and he doesn't space the floor.
He has a great role here, but he's a limited player.
He's really not that limited, he can do a lot of things from the C position, the number of guys who can replicate his skillset you can probably count on one hand. The only thing he's limited with is shooting deep ball. But he can dribble, pass, face up and go downhill, great touch around the basket, strong power finisher, and a really good defender. He's durable and hits his FTs. Rare breed at C IMO.
That's a no brainer.
I don't buy it. OG is not some superstar. It's not like Toronto was winning games with him. There's just some crazy synergy going on with the Knicks right now and he's part of it. As blexec mentioned, it could also be partly addition by subtraction. But I wouldn't pay him $35-40. I would let him walk and let FO find another player just like they got JB, DDV, Hart, and iHart. Cannot tie that amount of money up in OG
You don't consider what OG does on the defensively end of things star level? Cause he is about to get All Defensive team selection while being incredibly solid on the offensive end of things.
If you had a guy that was about to get All Offensive team selection and was incredibly solid on the defensive end of things, what would you call that person?
Durant? A litter bit younger Steph Curry? Klay before he got old? Tatum? Who is your comparison?
Also, let's us check back in during the summer and see who enjoys crow more and who will be eating.As well, letting OG walk under those circumstances IMHO would be the dumbest move in the history of GM's.
You're really comparing OG to Durant, Steph Curry, and Tatum? I'm not sure of the credibility of your argument here.
If you're arguing that defense should get paid as much as offense, I haven't see that in the history of this league.
As for comps, you can compare OG to Mutombo or Ben Wallace. OG probably has more offense that both of them, but they probably had even more defensive impact.
Actually I think the best comparison is probably Ron Artest. They even play the same position.
I'm happy to eat crow if I'm wrong, BTW. I'll bookmark this page, and we can revisit it and you can serve me some crow pie.
What exactly would make me wrong though? The Knicks actually signing him for too much doesn't make me wrong. Its if we regret tying up the money. But fine, let's just see what they pay him. That is quantifiable.
(Too bad that this debate is in the wrong thread.)Panos, you think that I think I'm comparing OG to Durant, Steph and Tatum in the way you put it?
You are either insanely naive or purposely being stubbornly stupid. I will pass on the rest, not worth it discussing at that level.
Dude, you are just now being rude.
I just repeated back to you what you said in your post. Why are you mentioning Durant and Curry if you are not comparing them? What was the actual purpose of the highlighted line?
You know for someone who is supposed to uphold the integrity of conversation here, you're pretty loose with the insults.
You think I'm actually DIRECTLY comparing OG to Durant, Steph, Tatum (as if they are exactly the same level) cause they are all in the same sentence without trying to even think about the meaning of my sentence and why I am comparing them.
This is not a literal comparison. Duh.
Do not be this purposely dense.
By the way, those guys are all in the $50M salary slot or will be. I am fully saying OG will get $35M.
I'll not accept you repeatedly calling me dense and stupid. Grow up a little.
Again, if you were NOT comparing him to those guys, there was no purpose of mentioning them in your post.
I'll walk away now.
It’s a tough decision, but Mitch can’t stay on the floor. He’s a beast and a game changer but IHart has earned the starting spot. But have to like the Knicks toughness.
You think KP wants any part of IHart, Mitch, Precious, Randle banging the shit out of him for 6-7 games. Same goes with Philly, switch OG in there Thibs has a lot to work with. Even Simms it’s important to have guys that won’t get bullied by Bam or the Joker.
Panos wrote:Ok, I'll respect your opinion on OG.
I'll not accept you repeatedly calling me dense and stupid. Grow up a little.
Again, if you were NOT comparing him to those guys, there was no purpose of mentioning them in your post.
I'll walk away now.
OG is an incredibly good defensive player. All Defensive team level player.
Steph, Durant, Tatum are all very good offensive players. If there was an All Offensive team selection, they would be on that team.
OG is a solid enough offensive player. Steph, Durant, Tatum are all solid enough defensive players.
That is what I literally wrote in my initial response.
Cause that is the comparison. OG, while not being worldly on offense, is worldly on defense in the same way Steph, Durant, Tatum are worldly on offense while being solid on defense. We are doing an SAT level question comparison here.
Are you keeping up with fishmike as much as you are keeping up with me in the above sentence?
I am being as rude as you are being daft.
MS wrote:Mitch can likely get you multiple 1sts to trade down the road.It’s a tough decision, but Mitch can’t stay on the floor. He’s a beast and a game changer but IHart has earned the starting spot. But have to like the Knicks toughness.
You think KP wants any part of IHart, Mitch, Precious, Randle banging the shit out of him for 6-7 games. Same goes with Philly, switch OG in there Thibs has a lot to work with. Even Simms it’s important to have guys that won’t get bullied by Bam or the Joker.
KP went for a 2nd rounder and Tyus Jones. ATL can't even give Capela away. Centers aren't in high demand. I'm not buying Ihart getting $20m at all. I think even $15m is more than fair for him.
no way is Mitch getting us multiple 1sts, maybe a late 1st from a contender though, but that's fine, more ammo for a star trade.
MS wrote:Mitch can likely get you multiple 1sts to trade down the road.agree but not high firsts... Mitch's value is on the floor not in a trade. Bottom line is he cant stay healthy but he's an impact player when he's on the floor. There are some bad match ups for which makes keeping IHart even more important. The bottom line is this...It’s a tough decision, but Mitch can’t stay on the floor. He’s a beast and a game changer but IHart has earned the starting spot. But have to like the Knicks toughness.
You think KP wants any part of IHart, Mitch, Precious, Randle banging the shit out of him for 6-7 games. Same goes with Philly, switch OG in there Thibs has a lot to work with. Even Simms it’s important to have guys that won’t get bullied by Bam or the Joker.
Mitch is being paid $14mm next year and $13mm the year after that. We are not rebuilding. We are trying to win playoff games and be a contender. Is there going to be better value for that money then being able to throw Mitch at you for the next 2 years? He was pivotal in beating Cle last year.
Jokic $51mm
Embiid $51mm
Gobert $44mm
ADavis $43mm (pre extension)
KP $29mm
Bam $34mm
Ayton $34mm
Brook $23mm
Turner $20mm
Capela $22mm
Poetl $20mm
Nurkic $18mm
Mitch $14mm
IHart $9.2
Biggest raise we can offer is $16.2mm year one which comes out to a 4 year $73mm (16,17,18.5,20ish) which I would certainly do. If takes that we have tremendous depth and quality play at center for the next 2 years until Mitch expires. Would be nice to use a draft pick on a center prospect as well
Best thing that can happen for the Knicks is Mitch coming back this season and being able to showcase himself for a possible Summer trade for cap space relief.
I think Sims has potential to be solid a backup, but he doesn't seem to have the coach's confidence. I'm beginning to doubt the 5 is his proper position.
Swishfm3 wrote:Mitch was expendable the second iHart was signed to the Knicks. You can tell from the beginning that Robinson was/is a defensive beast but iHart showed his versatility with the Clippers the year before (Not sure that the Clips financial situation was at the time, but I was surprised they let him walk)really? I thought the best thing that can happen is our size and depth paves the way to deep playoff or even a title run.Best thing that can happen for the Knicks is Mitch coming back this season and being able to showcase himself for a possible Summer trade for cap space relief.
I think Sims has potential to be solid a backup, but he doesn't seem to have the coach's confidence. I'm beginning to doubt the 5 is his proper position.
fishmike wrote:these are the center salaries for next year. This is where I am getting my $20mm a year range for IHartJokic $51mm
Embiid $51mm
Gobert $44mm
ADavis $43mm (pre extension)
KP $29mm
Bam $34mm
Ayton $34mm
Brook $23mm
Turner $20mm
Capela $22mm
Poetl $20mm
Nurkic $18mm
Mitch $14mmIHart $9.2
Biggest raise we can offer is $16.2mm year one which comes out to a 4 year $73mm (16,17,18.5,20ish) which I would certainly do. If takes that we have tremendous depth and quality play at center for the next 2 years until Mitch expires. Would be nice to use a draft pick on a center prospect as well
I think $17M is about right for iHart. I think he would get $20M per if he ever started hitting the three. But I don't think Hart's market will ever get that high because the teams who will have money this summer won't be in the market for a center.
Panos wrote:martin wrote:Panos wrote:martin wrote:fishmike wrote:Correct. Every single team out there that has been dying to trade for OG, all of those teams would have already committed to $30-35+M for OG (and maybe he still opts into that first year, but the rest will be north of 30 easy).Panos wrote:OG is not signing for $25. JB and JR are both underpaid. The cap continues to go up. I would expect Detroit to make IHart a big offer like 4 years $100/mm. They are closer than they appear. I would also expect us to do what we can to try and keep him. He's been great. Time will tell and at this point I really trust Leon and Brock. I would expect OG to cost $35-40mm a yearDLeethal wrote:Sorry, I'd way rather pay iHart $20M than OG north of $30M. Again, I think $25M for OG is the right number. Same as the other Big 2: JB and JR.nycericanguy wrote:OG will get the bag. I do think he will be as fair as possible though. But he gonna get 30 at least I think.DLeethal wrote:curious what OG signs for, if he takes $30m then it makes me think these guys all want to be here and will take team friendly deals. Can't imagine we traded for OG without having a number in place, and I'd be surprised if that number was 40.nycericanguy wrote:That would be ideal, it really all depends on who has cap space this year. All it takes is one team who needs a young C. We've been able to secure the guys we want, who want to be here, at reasonable deals across the board. I am hopeful this will fall in line with that.DLeethal wrote:we'll see, I think we resign him for 4/60mnycericanguy wrote:iHart is only 25. Doesn't really matter if he's never been that kind of player before, he's proving he is now as he's entering his prime years. Brunson didn't play more than 25 mpg either until he was 25.DLeethal wrote:if he's willing to leave for 20m so be it, we cant be the ones to pay it. Precious is good insurance for that.nycericanguy wrote:I could see a team giving him 20-25M. iHart is proving damn well he's a 30+ mpg player. He's playing C on the leagues best defense, winning games all while playing 30+. I think he will draw heavy interest. I hope we can keep him. I think he might see 20M offers and we will need to max him but I haven't looked at the teams with cap space yet.BingBong wrote:ehh I dont see teams blowing a ton of cap on Ihart. he wouldn't start in BOS or PHI either. how many contenders WOULD he start on? and how many losing teams would pay him big money?DLeethal wrote:I would pay Mitch and iHart a combined 30M I think and keep that platoon intact. I think if iHart requires 20-25M salary you have to move Mitch though. You have to have reasonable payroll balance. iHart is a damn monster though, he's durable and worth a slight overpay because of how well he's played. I would not under any circumstance let another team steal him from us.You know that if Will Hardy notices iHart's talent and value to the Knicks, every other coach in the NBA notices it as well. Because of it, I don't think iHart wants anything less than being a starter on a team. If he goes on the free market, he's going to get paid big money as he will have a lot of options and a bidding war will take place. I'm just a fan, so my opinion is as good (or bad) as the next fan, but I wouldn't let iHart go. He'd probably end up in Boston or Philadelphia...and of course the Lakers would be weighing in, as they are always doing.
I don't see it, I think he's a $15m player more or less who can play 24-26mpg. He's a in a perfect platoon with Mitch, neither are 30+mpg players IMO.
but he's never been more than 24-25mpg player, same as Mitch. I can't ever remember a C getting $20m while averaging the numbers he does. He won't even average 10 and 10, and he doesn't space the floor.
He has a great role here, but he's a limited player.
He's really not that limited, he can do a lot of things from the C position, the number of guys who can replicate his skillset you can probably count on one hand. The only thing he's limited with is shooting deep ball. But he can dribble, pass, face up and go downhill, great touch around the basket, strong power finisher, and a really good defender. He's durable and hits his FTs. Rare breed at C IMO.
That's a no brainer.
I don't buy it. OG is not some superstar. It's not like Toronto was winning games with him. There's just some crazy synergy going on with the Knicks right now and he's part of it. As blexec mentioned, it could also be partly addition by subtraction. But I wouldn't pay him $35-40. I would let him walk and let FO find another player just like they got JB, DDV, Hart, and iHart. Cannot tie that amount of money up in OGYou don't consider what OG does on the defensively end of things star level? Cause he is about to get All Defensive team selection while being incredibly solid on the offensive end of things.
If you had a guy that was about to get All Offensive team selection and was incredibly solid on the defensive end of things, what would you call that person?
Durant? A litter bit younger Steph Curry? Klay before he got old? Tatum? Who is your comparison?
Also, let's us check back in during the summer and see who enjoys crow more and who will be eating.
As well, letting OG walk under those circumstances IMHO would be the dumbest move in the history of GM's.
You're really comparing OG to Durant, Steph Curry, and Tatum? I'm not sure of the credibility of your argument here.
If you're arguing that defense should get paid as much as offense, I haven't see that in the history of this league.
As for comps, you can compare OG to Mutombo or Ben Wallace. OG probably has more offense that both of them, but they probably had even more defensive impact.
Actually I think the best comparison is probably Ron Artest. They even play the same position.
I'm happy to eat crow if I'm wrong, BTW. I'll bookmark this page, and we can revisit it and you can serve me some crow pie.
What exactly would make me wrong though? The Knicks actually signing him for too much doesn't make me wrong. Its if we regret tying up the money. But fine, let's just see what they pay him. That is quantifiable.
(Too bad that this debate is in the wrong thread.)
My comp for OG's ceiling is Kawhi. Took Kawhi about ~5 years to groom his offensive game on top of his defensive strength to become a super-star. OG may not get to that offensive level - but then again he can also defend all 5 positions.
joec32033 wrote:Be careful. I asked this question before, and was told it was a stupid question.http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...
blkexec wrote:Joe……It’s hard to give an adult answer to an immature question, but I’ll give it a try.Both
Whoever has it going they start. Now it’s iHart.
That was on page 2.
Honestly I don’t see the question that’s related to my response, which I will add was uncalled for when looking in a vacuum without knowing the history of discussions we’ve had prior.
Who would I rather have? Both. They impact the game in different ways. Now iHart defense has stepped up since then and he’s been very consistent. So now take my fan hat off and put my Leon Rose hat on, I’m probably going with the lesser contract guy since it’s a cap system and both impact winning at two different price points.
BUT
NEVER allow someone else’s flaws or flawed chat response dictate who you are and how you respond or corrupt the energy within. We are flesh with spirits inside. Dont stoop down to my perceived level, thats how those negative spirits win. Glad I didn’t see your response until now, or it would’ve been blown out of proportion even more.
Clearly this impacted you in some way so I sincerely apologize.
But at this point (Leon hat on), I might entertain a Mitch trade to obtain a missing championship piece. I don’t trust Mitch health and the only issue I had with iHart was his defense, which is clearly no longer an issue. What he brings on offense is something Mitch can’t touch right now. Mitch still the better rim protector and best offensive rebounder in the league. That’s huge. We will need that in the playoffs.
I go back and forth with these two, and that’s ok. Depending on the matchups, different skill sets are needed and Thibs does a great job balancing that out. Wait, was that a Thibs in game adjustments compliment?
fishmike wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:Mitch was expendable the second iHart was signed to the Knicks. You can tell from the beginning that Robinson was/is a defensive beast but iHart showed his versatility with the Clippers the year before (Not sure that the Clips financial situation was at the time, but I was surprised they let him walk)really? I thought the best thing that can happen is our size and depth paves the way to deep playoff or even a title run.Best thing that can happen for the Knicks is Mitch coming back this season and being able to showcase himself for a possible Summer trade for cap space relief.
I think Sims has potential to be solid a backup, but he doesn't seem to have the coach's confidence. I'm beginning to doubt the 5 is his proper position.
It is, of course. I’m thinking what the cap space implications would be if they keep both.
I would love for the Knicks to keep both if possible.
We can’t trade all our picks as they needed to cultivate players for play and or trade.
Knicks are putting a good product on the floor and with assets have good future. Success elevates salary demands and becomes a challenge all teams face.