Knicks · The Process - started 2013 - has failed? (page 1)
They own their pick this year and then owe a pick to OKC. I can't even tell which future first round pick they have. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
They are left with a broke Embiid, Maxey, and cap space. https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...
Road very well traveled.
martin wrote:Philly tanked forever. They haven't made it past the second round. https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...They own their pick this year and then owe a pick to OKC. I can't even tell which future first round pick they have. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
They are left with a broke Embiid, Maxey, and cap space. https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...
Road very well traveled.
I wouldn't call it a failure. They've been in the title contention conversation for the past few years. I think it speaks to how much luck plays a part. They were able to snatch one true Franchise player out of all those lottery picks. Then they get lucky with Maxey in the 20s.
BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Philly tanked forever. They haven't made it past the second round. https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...They own their pick this year and then owe a pick to OKC. I can't even tell which future first round pick they have. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
They are left with a broke Embiid, Maxey, and cap space. https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...
Road very well traveled.
I wouldn't call it a failure. They've been in the title contention conversation for the past few years. I think it speaks to how much luck plays a part. They were able to snatch one true Franchise player out of all those lottery picks. Then they get lucky with Maxey in the 20s.
Word. Look at our draft history in the lottery. If you're going to tank, you have to tank hard enough for the no. 1 pick
It was with good reason, They were awful and the road games attendance/viewership suffered.
Some might be bad luck. it happens. Others like trading up to get Fultz and giving Boston the 3rd that was Tatum Really tookk them down.
That 2017 draft was a tough one. Tatum was the Prize. Lonzo at the 2 was problematic. This was were Josh Jax, Issac, too have not panned out. Donovan mitchel at 14th!!!!
And Ben Simmons proved to be an issue AFTER he was an allstar and got extended.
Issue has been Ebiid who when healthy has that team playing very high.
Margins are thin and they came close to building it thru the draft. Its not easy. Would have been interesting to see what Hinkie would have done if left alone. Remember, Philly starts 2016-17 season 1-21 when Collangelo is hired as chairman. Hinkie resigns end of that season and has gone by the 2017 draft.
Blame? Josh Harris bought the team and started "The Process". Hinkie was pulling some long range thing. Issues drafting Norlens and Embiid with injuries delayed their entry. Then drafting OKA4. MCW was ROokie of the year but faded. Hinkie leveraged the picks to do sort of what Presti has done in OKC. Sometimes it executes and sometimes it fails.
The Process failed to execute. Can't say it did not have its opportunities here and there but never at seasons end. Morey did ok with what he had. The Harden thing looked pretty good for a while. Moves that big are done with ownership.
Rookie wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Philly tanked forever. They haven't made it past the second round. https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...They own their pick this year and then owe a pick to OKC. I can't even tell which future first round pick they have. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
They are left with a broke Embiid, Maxey, and cap space. https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...
Road very well traveled.
I wouldn't call it a failure. They've been in the title contention conversation for the past few years. I think it speaks to how much luck plays a part. They were able to snatch one true Franchise player out of all those lottery picks. Then they get lucky with Maxey in the 20s.
Word. Look at our draft history in the lottery. If you're going to tank, you have to tank hard enough for the no. 1 pick
even then its a risk that does not work. Simmons, Fultz? They got cute at times. Some years are worth it.
I used to think of the 90s Knicks as a failure and oh how young and dumb I was
Back on point, the Sixers still have the reigning MVP and still have one of the most young and exciting players in the league.. they still had James Harden and Jimmy Butler. They still got to tell other fanbases that Okafor and Fultz were future cornerstones. I know it didn't go according to plan but I would rather that than Frank Notgonnaplayherenaymore failing to get the ball to the guy who's gonna work here Mo Harkless oh wait. So when I would rather have had their experience it is hard for me to call it a failure
martin wrote:Philly tanked forever. They haven't made it past the second round. https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...They own their pick this year and then owe a pick to OKC. I can't even tell which future first round pick they have. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
They are left with a broke Embiid, Maxey, and cap space. https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...
Road very well traveled.
It’s a failure considering the picks they drafted at. Neither of their #1 picks became building blocks. Their only real building blocks were a #3 pick and #21. It’s pretty bare bones there under the circumstances. Overall they are a good team though. So in the end it ended with a mixed outcome.
Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Philly tanked forever. They haven't made it past the second round. https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...They own their pick this year and then owe a pick to OKC. I can't even tell which future first round pick they have. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
They are left with a broke Embiid, Maxey, and cap space. https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...
Road very well traveled.
It’s a failure considering the picks they drafted at. Neither of their #1 picks became building blocks. Their only real building blocks were a #3 pick and #21. It’s pretty bare bones there under the circumstances. Overall they are a good team though. So in the end it ended with a mixed outcome.
I feel that that is way too generous.
Philly decided to tank for 4 straight seasons.
They drafted Rookie of the Year Michael Carter-Williams at #10 in 2013.
They had 2 #1 picks, 2 #3 picks. Mikal Bridges at #10 the following year. Maxey at #21 2 years after Mikal.
Drafted OK4 at #3 instead of KP while having Embiid on roster.
Tatum for Fultz.
Only first round matches won. Zero second round playoffs won.
That's failure IMHO
Ewing took the Knicks to the 2nd round for ten straight years. Let that sink in. They are a shit show. Best thing is to get some stupid huge package for Embiid and get a roster building genius like we did to draft and bring quality guys in
Thats not a plan as much as Hinkie sold it as one. It was just going with the flow. One thing to put a team together, another for that team to be a legit contender.
KnickDanger wrote:Side note - is it better to be a 76ers or Knicks fan at the present time?
Easily Knicks. Star player is younger, healthier, and much better supporting cast. The entire team is young.
Knixkik wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Side note - is it better to be a 76ers or Knicks fan at the present time?Easily Knicks. Star player is younger, healthier, and much better supporting cast. The entire team is young.
Agree. And just based on my superficial observation, better organization and culture. Who woulda thunk?
GustavBahler wrote:High draft picks getting serious injuries their rookie season, year after year. Which meant they didnt get the usual boost in the standings from having a high 1st round pick on the roster. Which meant more high picks.Thats not a plan as much as Hinkie sold it as one. It was just going with the flow. One thing to put a team together, another for that team to be a legit contender.
I recall embiid fell to 3rd and he sat the full year with back issues. So not like he ever stepped on the court.
NOrlens was drafted 6th by NOla and trades draft night for Jrue holiday. Philly gets a 1st round pick also.
Year before PHilly had gone to ECF despite Andrew Bynum getting injured. Thus the rebuild was started.
One really has to go back and look at all the stuff they attempted to do by leveraging picks and applying patience.
Some really good ideas that in hindsight failed miserably. Kind of what Knicks with Leon and co been doing the last few years but we did it at lower level and things worked. Some at least.
Was I a fan of it? WHo cared really, but it was fascinating. Josh Harris (hedge fund mogul) had just bought the team and was applying some arbitrage voodoo shit and Hinkie was his guy. Most GM’s don’t have powers to do what Hinkie attempted to do so the “Blame” is organizational in my opinion. Some fans like to blame GM’s. Some teams have presidents and hands off owners. Some teams have very hands on owners.
Some truth Trolling Gustav might find offensive: Noel hurt his knee in college so he went into the draft damaged. Embiid fell in the draft because he suffered a stress fracture in his back March of 2014, while playing for Kansas. Thus both were damaged before the draft, not hurt in rookie seasons. They did this two years in a row.
I suggest one dive deep into the process to understand the nuances and context of time when looking at the decisions of the process. It was grandiose and defied logic. Harris was prepared to ride out a financial loss due to the losing nature of the team while Hinkie procured a treasure trove of assets. There was lots of small moves that one needs to review and consider.
In my opinion, Sam Presti’s rebuild of the Thunder has been a model after the dismantle of a team that went to the finals and procured 3 HOF playere. Durant, WEstbrook and Harden. Presti had full owners support as they were tanking in seattle preparing to move. It was bad. Really, the three were not a great fit but great talents. Durant as we all defied logic becoming a global star in a small backwards market. Giannis did also. (This ended the theory of stardom only in big markets). Fast forward to Durant left on his own, they had traded Harden, and Had Westbrook and PG 13 and CP3. Can’t remember if all together. The PG trade was interesting as they got him , gave him max, asked him to stay a bit and try to win with a promise to move him if he wanted to. not a tank really. He wanted LA. Clippers had to get him and over pay because Kawhai demanded it (he came as FA). Presti insisted on SGA and the rest is wonderful. Presti tanked but he also dismantled a core winning group as well. He offed Westbrook and got good value for him before his wheels came off.
Before they drafted Noel Philly had done a bad trade for Andrew Bynum who did not pan out at all.
They used Jrue Holiday to kick off “The Process”.
IN the end it got them competitive but the level of ambition and financial sacrifice made I perhaps would label it a “Failure”.
In the NBA, the team that has the best player in the league usually wins the Championship.
I don’t remember if this article is one I read years back, but it captures I think what he was after:
https://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/10/2...
The first premise one has to accept to really support what the Sixers are doing is that the NBA is a league built around superstars. This is also the easiest argument to make.With only five players on a court, some who play upwards of 40 minutes per game, and only one basketball between them, teams who have truly incredible players tend to prosper.
From Magic and Bird, to Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, and LeBron, the NBA has been dominated by a select few true difference makers over the years. Since the start of the 1990 NBA season, 21 of the 25 championships have been split between six teams: the Bulls (6), Lakers (5), Spurs (5), Heat (3), and Rockets (2).
He got fired early, rightfully so. Running an organization is bigger than just tanking, and that’s all he had.
franco12 wrote:Hinkie was, I think, right in his thinking.In the NBA, the team that has the best player in the league usually wins the Championship.
I don’t remember if this article is one I read years back, but it captures I think what he was after:
https://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/10/2...
The first premise one has to accept to really support what the Sixers are doing is that the NBA is a league built around superstars. This is also the easiest argument to make.With only five players on a court, some who play upwards of 40 minutes per game, and only one basketball between them, teams who have truly incredible players tend to prosper.
From Magic and Bird, to Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, and LeBron, the NBA has been dominated by a select few true difference makers over the years. Since the start of the 1990 NBA season, 21 of the 25 championships have been split between six teams: the Bulls (6), Lakers (5), Spurs (5), Heat (3), and Rockets (2).
martin wrote:Philly tanked forever. They haven't made it past the second round. https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...They own their pick this year and then owe a pick to OKC. I can't even tell which future first round pick they have. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
They are left with a broke Embiid, Maxey, and cap space. https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...
Road very well traveled.
One teams failure may just be a failure to commit. They absolutely gave up on the process perhaps prematurely. They also made some bad decisions in the process.
I don’t know what you want to call OKCs approach to the rebuild, but they took their lumps. Swallowed other teams contracts and now have a top 5 player, a stash of developing young players, the most draft picks and plenty of cap space. If there was a model for how to run an NBA franchise from losing all of its franchise players to trade demands to building it up again in under 10 years… it OKC.
EwingsGlass wrote:martin wrote:Philly tanked forever. They haven't made it past the second round. https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...They own their pick this year and then owe a pick to OKC. I can't even tell which future first round pick they have. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
They are left with a broke Embiid, Maxey, and cap space. https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...
Road very well traveled.
One teams failure may just be a failure to commit. They absolutely gave up on the process perhaps prematurely. They also made some bad decisions in the process.
I don’t know what you want to call OKCs approach to the rebuild, but they took their lumps. Swallowed other teams contracts and now have a top 5 player, a stash of developing young players, the most draft picks and plenty of cap space. If there was a model for how to run an NBA franchise from losing all of its franchise players to trade demands to building it up again in under 10 years… it OKC.
Knicks just built theirs in the same timeframe. While focusing on winning instead of losing.
They may also have a top 5 player as well as 2 all-defensive players, and 1 2-time all nba player on their team.
Knicks will most likely have a total of 3 playoff appearances and 1 second round appearance to their tally by this offseason while OKC is working on their first.
They seem to be a model of some sort.
Philly failed hard
martin wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:martin wrote:Philly tanked forever. They haven't made it past the second round. https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...They own their pick this year and then owe a pick to OKC. I can't even tell which future first round pick they have. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
They are left with a broke Embiid, Maxey, and cap space. https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...
Road very well traveled.
One teams failure may just be a failure to commit. They absolutely gave up on the process perhaps prematurely. They also made some bad decisions in the process.
I don’t know what you want to call OKCs approach to the rebuild, but they took their lumps. Swallowed other teams contracts and now have a top 5 player, a stash of developing young players, the most draft picks and plenty of cap space. If there was a model for how to run an NBA franchise from losing all of its franchise players to trade demands to building it up again in under 10 years… it OKC.
Knicks just built theirs in the same timeframe. While focusing on winning instead of losing.
They may also have a top 5 player as well as 2 all-defensive players, and 1 2-time all nba player on their team.
Knicks will most likely have a total of 3 playoff appearances and 1 second round appearance to their tally by this offseason while OKC is working on their first.
They seem to be a model of some sort.
Philly failed hard
Obviously okc landed SGA in a major rebuild trade and Chet and jwill via draft as part of their rebuild, so things have gone well for them. But I really appreciate the way the Knicks as well as the pacers have rebuilt. Not bottoming out, making opportunistic trades that land a franchise player (Knicks made the trade as a precursor to signing Brunson which is the same thing to me), and establishing a culture/ identity around that player. Knicks and pacers did this without being really bad or intentionally losing. Leon Rose could have blown it up and bottomed out for 3 years and if we emerged to this level of play we would have said he did the right thing. Well we are where we are without that phase of bottoming out. So much more impressive. The biggest thing for the Knicks is determining how to take the next step without impacting what works so well. The one mistake was shaking things up to sign Fournier and Kemba, as it went away from what worked. The Knicks have an identity now and need to add to that. These rebuilds are as much about establishing an identity rather than just adding young players. The thing with Philly was their identity became this process thing which was a losing culture. To me that makes it that much harder to rebuild.
martin wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:martin wrote:Philly tanked forever. They haven't made it past the second round. https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...They own their pick this year and then owe a pick to OKC. I can't even tell which future first round pick they have. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/...
They are left with a broke Embiid, Maxey, and cap space. https://www.basketball-reference.com/con...
Road very well traveled.
One teams failure may just be a failure to commit. They absolutely gave up on the process perhaps prematurely. They also made some bad decisions in the process.
I don’t know what you want to call OKCs approach to the rebuild, but they took their lumps. Swallowed other teams contracts and now have a top 5 player, a stash of developing young players, the most draft picks and plenty of cap space. If there was a model for how to run an NBA franchise from losing all of its franchise players to trade demands to building it up again in under 10 years… it OKC.
Knicks just built theirs in the same timeframe. While focusing on winning instead of losing.
They may also have a top 5 player as well as 2 all-defensive players, and 1 2-time all nba player on their team.
Knicks will most likely have a total of 3 playoff appearances and 1 second round appearance to their tally by this offseason while OKC is working on their first.
They seem to be a model of some sort.
Philly failed hard
Five years ago the Ron Baker/Trey Burke led Knicks team (many other nostalgic names on the roster) coached by the one and only David Fizdale, finished the 2018 - 2019 season at 17 - 65. That led to the lottery pick of RJ Barrett. Anyway, maybe not the greatest rebuild of all time, but Leon coming in the following year has led to the best Knicks days in 25 years.