Knicks · What you giving up for Mikal? (page 2)
Dejaunte Murray - Trae Youbg killed this kids trajectory.
Mikal Bridges - He’s a super role player, not a lead scorer.
OG Anunoby - The Crow.
Jaren Jackson Jr. - Still has more strength coming.
Myles Turner - Ideal mix of inside and out. Kind of sore on him at the moment though.
Now, some of these players got locked up on contracts. Some are in positions that conflict with our cultural development. These guys should cost a premium youth (we only have Deuce) and picks.
Best I think we can do right now using draft collateral is
Brunson
Bridges
Anunoby
Randle
Markannen
Now, to answer the question what I would give up for Bridges?
Robinson, Deuce and Dal 24, NYK 25, Swap 26, NYK 27 Top 5 protected. Done. I love love love Deuce and Robinson. But it has to hurt to get quality. Pull that trigger.
Thats all I would give up. This would be the only move that would make sense for the Knicks. Moving Randle doesn't make sense because, as well as OG does defending opposing 4/5, he can only do it in short stints or certain match ups. Plus, with Randle gone, Knicks lose a reliable rebounder.
If Nets aren't interested..move on
gradyandrew wrote:Well, Bill Simmons latest trade value column had Randle at 49 and Mikal at 31, so maybe Randle and a pick gets it done. LOL.Anyway, I'm not going to die on this hill. If expirings and a boat load of picks gets it done, that's clearly the way to go. There will just be a huge minutes crunch when all are healthy.
Same list has LeBron, Ja, KAT, Jaylan Brown, Dame, Scottie Barnes, Kyrie all lower than Mikal too. WTF right?
Maybe I'm thinking this is not a good list to rely on for anything valuable. Ever.
SupremeCommander wrote:I think you are getting your hopes up martin
Ha, you right. Under truly normal circumstances I KNOW this trade would never go down, just cause of everything you and I would agree on.
But if Brunson is taking an extension contract *now*, in my mind, he has convinced the FO they need to do whatever they can to get him what he wants. And this is pretty much the only scenario that I think may actually have a chance in getting Mikal.
At that level, you do not EVER give up that much money without horse trading for something, even if it's a handshake on a promise you know the other side can't 100% keep but maybe they will go after it as much as you can trust them to (and let me get this out of the way: tons of guys have takes less on their contract to stay in a good place for themselves and family, this ain't even in the same territory of exchange). It's a very grey trust area for sure but I think Brunson's unique history with the Knicks and Leon and - as odd as it sounds - has the stars starting to align.
I am not much into the stars aligning type of thing, but this is too good of a story quite frankly. But I am a firm believer that Mikal will be on the Knicks some time in the next 2 years. And that type of statement goes counter to where my actual (professional) personality would assess that position.
IF Brunson signs a contract extension that is far undervalued at his current MVP'ish level, Brunson has personally set up the Knicks to easily extend OG, Randle and may encourage those 2 to slice some off of their top end too. Which will allow the Knicks to upgrade roster with extra cap space. Using all the future picks to ensure the last pieces are solidly in place seems like the right exchange.
I'd guess that the Knicks would be willing to give up close to what LAC could get for PG in a trade today, especially if they could do it without giving up Mitch.
Would another team give up a PG-level return today knowing that those bro's were hot and heavy for year other? Would Nets turn it down? Or would they still do it but save face in a 3-way exchange that nets them that return?
What else would satisfy this exchange for the Nets and for the 3rd team?
VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
Deuce was MORE than adequate at backup PG, in fact I'd say he was very good and kept getting better as the season went on and will probably continue to get better.
The issue was we simply needed and asked too much from him.
but he's probably one of the better backup PG's in the league.
martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
I'm honestly not sure there's time for a true backup PG behind a 35 mpg Brunson if you're trying to get minutes for Hart and DDV in this Bridges starting construct when the rotation tightens. Randle probably plays de-facto shot creator in scenarios where Brunson isn't in the floor - as he has done many times in his Knicks tenure. I guess that will be fun for all :)
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
Deuce was MORE than adequate at backup PG, in fact I'd say he was very good and kept getting better as the season went on and will probably continue to get better.
The issue was we simply needed and asked too much from him.
but he's probably one of the better backup PG's in the league.
Don't disagree with this statement. For this past regular season.
Knicks biggest flaw this playoffs was ball handling and PG play when Brunson wasn't playing. That is the new level-set and perspective that we now have to take on cause that'll be the aim of the team.
Do you think that Deuce's growth for the upcoming year will be enough PG play when Brunson sits? Both regular season and playoffs. That's what the Knicks will ask themselves.
Knicks SG's and wings don't have enough ball handling for playoff ball handling territory (DDV, Deuce, OG, Hart; Randle will alleviate some of that). All these guys can certainly start a fast break an all but they not offensive initiators in the half court, that's the role the Knicks need.
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
Deuce was MORE than adequate at backup PG, in fact I'd say he was very good and kept getting better as the season went on and will probably continue to get better.
The issue was we simply needed and asked too much from him.
but he's probably one of the better backup PG's in the league.
Don't disagree with this statement. For this past regular season.
Knicks biggest flaw this playoffs was ball handling and PG play when Brunson wasn't playing. That is the new level-set and perspective that we now have to take on cause that'll be the aim of the team.
Do you think that Deuce's growth for the upcoming year with be enough PG play when Brunson sits? Both regular season and playoffs. That's what the Knicks will ask themselves.
Knicks SG's and wings don't have enough ball handling for playoff ball handling territory (DDV, Deuce, OG, Hart; Randle will alleviate some of that). All these guys can certainly start a fast break an all but they not offensive initiators in the half court, that's the role the Knicks need.
Just like PHI without Embidd, we struggled without Brunson b/c he had no help, I don't think it was a matter of specifically PG play, it was a matter of just not having enough talent when Brunson sat.
We have plenty of ballhandlers, Hart, DDV, Deuce, even Burks... it was more about not having that second scorer.
I didn't think Deuce was a PG, but he only got better and better to the point where he was one of the guys I trusted most with the ball.
martin wrote:gradyandrew wrote:Well, Bill Simmons latest trade value column had Randle at 49 and Mikal at 31, so maybe Randle and a pick gets it done. LOL.Anyway, I'm not going to die on this hill. If expirings and a boat load of picks gets it done, that's clearly the way to go. There will just be a huge minutes crunch when all are healthy.
Same list has LeBron, Ja, KAT, Jaylan Brown, Dame, Scottie Barnes, Kyrie all lower than Mikal too. WTF right?
Maybe I'm thinking this is not a good list to rely on for anything valuable. Ever.
Oh for sure. I think Frantz Wagner was top ten last year and Paolo Bencher is top ten this year. And lest we forget, Bill Simmons sucks. I digress but he actually wrote a column once about the difficulty of choosing between attending a Floyd Mayweather fight and a Celtics playoff game. Fucking douchebag.
Anyway point is if Knicks asked to trade Randle for Mikal, Brooklyn would probably ask for a little something more which I'm guessing the Knicks would walk away from.
To your other point, is Randle the real hero here for taking that low money extension after his first All NBA season? I think it kind of set the tone for the team in general. That extra money he left on the table opened up the possibility of Knicks being able to sign Brunson the next season.
Again, I'm thinking spending a year with Nerlens Noel was.a great cautionary tale for the team. Brunson might even take to heart what happened to Isaiah Thomas (the Celtic). He got greedy and ended up screwed. Also a pint sized point whom I'm pretty sure finished 5th in MVP votes one year. Anyway you slice it, the difference between 150 and 250 million isn't that huge in terms of lifestyle. Unless you are planning to go Dwight Howard and have a bunch of kids with a bunch of women.
VDesai wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
I'm honestly not sure there's time for a true backup PG behind a 35 mpg Brunson if you're trying to get minutes for Hart and DDV in this Bridges starting construct when the rotation tightens. Randle probably plays de-facto shot creator in scenarios where Brunson isn't in the floor - as he has done many times in his Knicks tenure. I guess that will be fun for all :)
This is just a different version of the minutes police for me. They will figure it out.
gradyandrew wrote:martin wrote:gradyandrew wrote:Well, Bill Simmons latest trade value column had Randle at 49 and Mikal at 31, so maybe Randle and a pick gets it done. LOL.Anyway, I'm not going to die on this hill. If expirings and a boat load of picks gets it done, that's clearly the way to go. There will just be a huge minutes crunch when all are healthy.
Same list has LeBron, Ja, KAT, Jaylan Brown, Dame, Scottie Barnes, Kyrie all lower than Mikal too. WTF right?
Maybe I'm thinking this is not a good list to rely on for anything valuable. Ever.
Oh for sure. I think Frantz Wagner was top ten last year and Paolo Bencher is top ten this year. And lest we forget, Bill Simmons sucks. I digress but he actually wrote a column once about the difficulty of choosing between attending a Floyd Mayweather fight and a Celtics playoff game. Fucking douchebag.
Anyway point is if Knicks asked to trade Randle for Mikal, Brooklyn would probably ask for a little something more which I'm guessing the Knicks would walk away from.
To your other point, is Randle the real hero here for taking that low money extension after his first All NBA season? I think it kind of set the tone for the team in general. That extra money he left on the table opened up the possibility of Knicks being able to sign Brunson the next season.
Again, I'm thinking spending a year with Nerlens Noel was.a great cautionary tale for the team. Brunson might even take to heart what happened to Isaiah Thomas (the Celtic). He got greedy and ended up screwed. Also a pint sized point whom I'm pretty sure finished 5th in MVP votes one year. Anyway you slice it, the difference between 150 and 250 million isn't that huge in terms of lifestyle. Unless you are planning to go Dwight Howard and have a bunch of kids with a bunch of women.
No that's not the point. The Knicks would never even participate in a Mikal-Randle swap. Ever. Nor would a GM with a brain unless they had 7 PFs on their team and desperately needed a 3&D guy.
I don't think you have a good sense of the value of players and what teams would ask in exchange for some of them.
Randle is a flawed All NBA type. He demands double teams. He is not a 1A but is a 1B or right up there in terms of value to a team. Mikal is valuable because of his current contract and he is a high level, elite role player, so like 1D or 2A if you will.
Ainge would ask for multiple first round picks as the Net GM in exchange for Randle. Ainge is an asshole. Those are the types that would offer up this type of deal.
Imagine if we had Maxey as a SG and they kept defending Brunson the way they were. He would have easily sliced through the disadvantaged rotating defense as the secondary ball handler. I am not saying we need Maxey but we need someone who can punish the defense for overcommiting.
Clean wrote:People who are saying McBride was a good backup PG for the playoffs is crazy. He gives you 0 play making or shot creation. He is basically a small SG with defense when he has a good game. We have a team with only 2 shot creators/play makers. That is Brunson and Randle. Getting another player with the ability to breakdown the defense became a major need once we traded Quick and RJ. It is why I wanted Brogdan. He can hit an open shot and was a relatively cheap playmaker. It was easy to see we would be lacking in that area. People put too much stock in the regular season when teams play you different during playoff time. That is why Quick went from 6th man of the year to complete trash last playoff. No team should be able to hound Brunson as hard as the Pacers was and we not be able to take advantage of them for overcommiting to him.Imagine if we had Maxey as a SG and they kept defending Brunson the way they were. He would have easily sliced through the disadvantaged rotating defense as the secondary ball handler. I am not saying we need Maxey but we need someone who can punish the defense for overcommiting.
I couldn't have said it better.
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
Deuce was MORE than adequate at backup PG, in fact I'd say he was very good and kept getting better as the season went on and will probably continue to get better.
The issue was we simply needed and asked too much from him.
but he's probably one of the better backup PG's in the league.
Don't disagree with this statement. For this past regular season.
Knicks biggest flaw this playoffs was ball handling and PG play when Brunson wasn't playing. That is the new level-set and perspective that we now have to take on cause that'll be the aim of the team.
Do you think that Deuce's growth for the upcoming year with be enough PG play when Brunson sits? Both regular season and playoffs. That's what the Knicks will ask themselves.
Knicks SG's and wings don't have enough ball handling for playoff ball handling territory (DDV, Deuce, OG, Hart; Randle will alleviate some of that). All these guys can certainly start a fast break an all but they not offensive initiators in the half court, that's the role the Knicks need.
Just like PHI without Embidd, we struggled without Brunson b/c he had no help, I don't think it was a matter of specifically PG play, it was a matter of just not having enough talent when Brunson sat.
We have plenty of ballhandlers, Hart, DDV, Deuce, even Burks... it was more about not having that second scorer.
I didn't think Deuce was a PG, but he only got better and better to the point where he was one of the guys I trusted most with the ball.
I am using the wrong words to convey my meaning. I should be using offensive initiation: ball handling and PG play and breakdown ability all together. The Knicks do indeed have ball handling in DDV, Deuce, Burks, Hart but really those guys are not good enough in tight moments (heck we even see Brunson crack and fuck up). The offense sucks when opponent is able to hound Brunson and he essentially doesn't have an outlet. Also, look at the inbound passing.
Our offense can be very good with Brunson doing everything but it's also very very predictable. Having Randle alleviates that. It gets more glaring when Brunson sits, even with Randle.
There is definitely a role there that is missing for the Knicks that Deuce does not fill but maybe can in future or at a lower level than necessary for playoffs. He absolutely fills other buckets on his own very well: defense, shooting.
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
Deuce was MORE than adequate at backup PG, in fact I'd say he was very good and kept getting better as the season went on and will probably continue to get better.
The issue was we simply needed and asked too much from him.
but he's probably one of the better backup PG's in the league.
Don't disagree with this statement. For this past regular season.
Knicks biggest flaw this playoffs was ball handling and PG play when Brunson wasn't playing. That is the new level-set and perspective that we now have to take on cause that'll be the aim of the team.
Do you think that Deuce's growth for the upcoming year with be enough PG play when Brunson sits? Both regular season and playoffs. That's what the Knicks will ask themselves.
Knicks SG's and wings don't have enough ball handling for playoff ball handling territory (DDV, Deuce, OG, Hart; Randle will alleviate some of that). All these guys can certainly start a fast break an all but they not offensive initiators in the half court, that's the role the Knicks need.
Just like PHI without Embidd, we struggled without Brunson b/c he had no help, I don't think it was a matter of specifically PG play, it was a matter of just not having enough talent when Brunson sat.
We have plenty of ballhandlers, Hart, DDV, Deuce, even Burks... it was more about not having that second scorer.
I didn't think Deuce was a PG, but he only got better and better to the point where he was one of the guys I trusted most with the ball.
I am using the wrong words to convey my meaning. I should be using offensive initiation: ball handling and PG play and breakdown ability all together. The Knicks do indeed have ball handling in DDV, Deuce, Burks, Hart but really those guys are not good enough in tight moments (heck we even see Brunson crack and fuck up). The offense sucks when opponent is able to hound Brunson and he essentially doesn't have an outlet. Also, look at the inbound passing.
Our offense can be very good with Brunson doing everything but it's also very very predictable. Having Randle alleviates that. It gets more glaring when Brunson sits, even with Randle.
There is definitely a role there that is missing for the Knicks that Deuce does not fill but maybe can in future or at a lower level than necessary for playoffs. He absolutely fills other buckets on his own very well: defense, shooting.
yea I think that's missing Randle more than anything, and though I've never been a huge Randle fan I can 100% see his value as a 2nd scorer/playmaker. Brunson needs help on the court and also when he's sitting.
but I just don't see that as Deuce lacking as a backup PG, most backup PG's aren't going to be able to create at a high level, that's why they are backups. I mean this sub talks about Tyus Jones alot but he's not going to go out there and create in a playoff environment. We could have had prime Charlie Ward backing up Brunson, he wasn't going to create either. I thought Deuce did very well attacking, bringing the ball up against intense pressure, finishing and running the offense but he's not going to draw attention the way a big scorer like Randle or Brunson do.
That's why I was interested in DJM, but I think that ship has sailed with the play of Deuce and DDV.
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
Deuce was MORE than adequate at backup PG, in fact I'd say he was very good and kept getting better as the season went on and will probably continue to get better.
The issue was we simply needed and asked too much from him.
but he's probably one of the better backup PG's in the league.
Don't disagree with this statement. For this past regular season.
Knicks biggest flaw this playoffs was ball handling and PG play when Brunson wasn't playing. That is the new level-set and perspective that we now have to take on cause that'll be the aim of the team.
Do you think that Deuce's growth for the upcoming year with be enough PG play when Brunson sits? Both regular season and playoffs. That's what the Knicks will ask themselves.
Knicks SG's and wings don't have enough ball handling for playoff ball handling territory (DDV, Deuce, OG, Hart; Randle will alleviate some of that). All these guys can certainly start a fast break an all but they not offensive initiators in the half court, that's the role the Knicks need.
Just like PHI without Embidd, we struggled without Brunson b/c he had no help, I don't think it was a matter of specifically PG play, it was a matter of just not having enough talent when Brunson sat.
We have plenty of ballhandlers, Hart, DDV, Deuce, even Burks... it was more about not having that second scorer.
I didn't think Deuce was a PG, but he only got better and better to the point where he was one of the guys I trusted most with the ball.
I am using the wrong words to convey my meaning. I should be using offensive initiation: ball handling and PG play and breakdown ability all together. The Knicks do indeed have ball handling in DDV, Deuce, Burks, Hart but really those guys are not good enough in tight moments (heck we even see Brunson crack and fuck up). The offense sucks when opponent is able to hound Brunson and he essentially doesn't have an outlet. Also, look at the inbound passing.
Our offense can be very good with Brunson doing everything but it's also very very predictable. Having Randle alleviates that. It gets more glaring when Brunson sits, even with Randle.
There is definitely a role there that is missing for the Knicks that Deuce does not fill but maybe can in future or at a lower level than necessary for playoffs. He absolutely fills other buckets on his own very well: defense, shooting.
yea I think that's missing Randle more than anything, and though I've never been a huge Randle fan I can 100% see his value as a 2nd scorer/playmaker. Brunson needs help on the court and also when he's sitting.
but I just don't see that as Deuce lacking as a backup PG, most backup PG's aren't going to be able to create at a high level, that's why they are backups. I mean this sub talks about Tyus Jones alot but he's not going to go out there and create in a playoff environment. We could have had prime Charlie Ward backing up Brunson, he wasn't going to create either. I thought Deuce did very well attacking, bringing the ball up against intense pressure, finishing and running the offense but he's not going to draw attention the way a big scorer like Randle or Brunson do.
That's why I was interested in DJM, but I think that ship has sailed with the play of Deuce and DDV.
For me, there is a world of difference between what Deuce brings in terms of PG capabilities and what Tyus Jones or Charlie Ward would do in similar situations.
Deuce could not do anything close to what Tyus accomplished in Memphis when Ja went down for a long stretch. Deuce is a nice development player but that's not his forte.