Knicks · What you giving up for Mikal? (page 3)
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
Deuce was MORE than adequate at backup PG, in fact I'd say he was very good and kept getting better as the season went on and will probably continue to get better.
The issue was we simply needed and asked too much from him.
but he's probably one of the better backup PG's in the league.
Don't disagree with this statement. For this past regular season.
Knicks biggest flaw this playoffs was ball handling and PG play when Brunson wasn't playing. That is the new level-set and perspective that we now have to take on cause that'll be the aim of the team.
Do you think that Deuce's growth for the upcoming year with be enough PG play when Brunson sits? Both regular season and playoffs. That's what the Knicks will ask themselves.
Knicks SG's and wings don't have enough ball handling for playoff ball handling territory (DDV, Deuce, OG, Hart; Randle will alleviate some of that). All these guys can certainly start a fast break an all but they not offensive initiators in the half court, that's the role the Knicks need.
Just like PHI without Embidd, we struggled without Brunson b/c he had no help, I don't think it was a matter of specifically PG play, it was a matter of just not having enough talent when Brunson sat.
We have plenty of ballhandlers, Hart, DDV, Deuce, even Burks... it was more about not having that second scorer.
I didn't think Deuce was a PG, but he only got better and better to the point where he was one of the guys I trusted most with the ball.
I am using the wrong words to convey my meaning. I should be using offensive initiation: ball handling and PG play and breakdown ability all together. The Knicks do indeed have ball handling in DDV, Deuce, Burks, Hart but really those guys are not good enough in tight moments (heck we even see Brunson crack and fuck up). The offense sucks when opponent is able to hound Brunson and he essentially doesn't have an outlet. Also, look at the inbound passing.
Our offense can be very good with Brunson doing everything but it's also very very predictable. Having Randle alleviates that. It gets more glaring when Brunson sits, even with Randle.
There is definitely a role there that is missing for the Knicks that Deuce does not fill but maybe can in future or at a lower level than necessary for playoffs. He absolutely fills other buckets on his own very well: defense, shooting.
yea I think that's missing Randle more than anything, and though I've never been a huge Randle fan I can 100% see his value as a 2nd scorer/playmaker. Brunson needs help on the court and also when he's sitting.
but I just don't see that as Deuce lacking as a backup PG, most backup PG's aren't going to be able to create at a high level, that's why they are backups. I mean this sub talks about Tyus Jones alot but he's not going to go out there and create in a playoff environment. We could have had prime Charlie Ward backing up Brunson, he wasn't going to create either. I thought Deuce did very well attacking, bringing the ball up against intense pressure, finishing and running the offense but he's not going to draw attention the way a big scorer like Randle or Brunson do.
That's why I was interested in DJM, but I think that ship has sailed with the play of Deuce and DDV.
For me, there is a world of difference between what Deuce brings in terms of PG capabilities and what Tyus Jones or Charlie Ward would do in similar situations.
Deuce could not do anything close to what Tyus accomplished in Memphis when Ja went down for a long stretch. Deuce is a nice development player but that's not his forte.
EwingsGlass wrote:In a vacuum, without thinking about culture, team history, or anything else, but picking from the second tier or less of players, my ideal lineup of two way players with solid anthro are something like this:Dejaunte Murray - Trae Youbg killed this kids trajectory.
Mikal Bridges - He’s a super role player, not a lead scorer.
OG Anunoby - The Crow.
Jaren Jackson Jr. - Still has more strength coming.
Myles Turner - Ideal mix of inside and out. Kind of sore on him at the moment though.Now, some of these players got locked up on contracts. Some are in positions that conflict with our cultural development. These guys should cost a premium youth (we only have Deuce) and picks.
Best I think we can do right now using draft collateral is
Brunson
Bridges
Anunoby
Randle
MarkannenNow, to answer the question what I would give up for Bridges?
Robinson, Deuce and Dal 24, NYK 25, Swap 26, NYK 27 Top 5 protected. Done. I love love love Deuce and Robinson. But it has to hurt to get quality. Pull that trigger.
I like the moves. However wondering how the minutes would work when you have a 9 man rotation adding JHart, DDV and IHart and a backup ball handler into the mix. Hard pressed to see JHart or DDV getting more than 15-20 mpg.
Potential minutes breakdown:
34 Brunson (1)
30 Bridges (2)
32 OG (3)
34 Randle (4)
30 Markannen (4 & 5)
20 Jhart (3 & 4)
18 DDV (2)
28 Ihart (5)
14 Backup Guard - ball handler (1)
240 Total
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
Deuce was MORE than adequate at backup PG, in fact I'd say he was very good and kept getting better as the season went on and will probably continue to get better.
The issue was we simply needed and asked too much from him.
but he's probably one of the better backup PG's in the league.
Don't disagree with this statement. For this past regular season.
Knicks biggest flaw this playoffs was ball handling and PG play when Brunson wasn't playing. That is the new level-set and perspective that we now have to take on cause that'll be the aim of the team.
Do you think that Deuce's growth for the upcoming year with be enough PG play when Brunson sits? Both regular season and playoffs. That's what the Knicks will ask themselves.
Knicks SG's and wings don't have enough ball handling for playoff ball handling territory (DDV, Deuce, OG, Hart; Randle will alleviate some of that). All these guys can certainly start a fast break an all but they not offensive initiators in the half court, that's the role the Knicks need.
Just like PHI without Embidd, we struggled without Brunson b/c he had no help, I don't think it was a matter of specifically PG play, it was a matter of just not having enough talent when Brunson sat.
We have plenty of ballhandlers, Hart, DDV, Deuce, even Burks... it was more about not having that second scorer.
I didn't think Deuce was a PG, but he only got better and better to the point where he was one of the guys I trusted most with the ball.
I am using the wrong words to convey my meaning. I should be using offensive initiation: ball handling and PG play and breakdown ability all together. The Knicks do indeed have ball handling in DDV, Deuce, Burks, Hart but really those guys are not good enough in tight moments (heck we even see Brunson crack and fuck up). The offense sucks when opponent is able to hound Brunson and he essentially doesn't have an outlet. Also, look at the inbound passing.
Our offense can be very good with Brunson doing everything but it's also very very predictable. Having Randle alleviates that. It gets more glaring when Brunson sits, even with Randle.
There is definitely a role there that is missing for the Knicks that Deuce does not fill but maybe can in future or at a lower level than necessary for playoffs. He absolutely fills other buckets on his own very well: defense, shooting.
yea I think that's missing Randle more than anything, and though I've never been a huge Randle fan I can 100% see his value as a 2nd scorer/playmaker. Brunson needs help on the court and also when he's sitting.
but I just don't see that as Deuce lacking as a backup PG, most backup PG's aren't going to be able to create at a high level, that's why they are backups. I mean this sub talks about Tyus Jones alot but he's not going to go out there and create in a playoff environment. We could have had prime Charlie Ward backing up Brunson, he wasn't going to create either. I thought Deuce did very well attacking, bringing the ball up against intense pressure, finishing and running the offense but he's not going to draw attention the way a big scorer like Randle or Brunson do.
That's why I was interested in DJM, but I think that ship has sailed with the play of Deuce and DDV.
For me, there is a world of difference between what Deuce brings in terms of PG capabilities and what Tyus Jones or Charlie Ward would do in similar situations.
Deuce could not do anything close to what Tyus accomplished in Memphis when Ja went down for a long stretch. Deuce is a nice development player but that's not his forte.
Deuce did even better, he averaged 18/5/5 as a starter for a month. Tyus jones career high PPG in any month was 12.9, his playoff career scoring is 5.8 on 37/31 shooting, he's never averaged more than 9.
Deuce put up 11ppg on 44/37 shooting these playoffs, while defending better, for 1/5th the salary... oh and he's 5 years younger too.
we need someone who can reliably handle the ball, and is clutch.
Chandler wrote:i don't see OG and Mikal on the same team. too redundant in many wayswe need someone who can reliably handle the ball, and is clutch.
I think its fine, can't have enough defenders and shooters.
Imagine putting Mikal and OG on BRown & Tatum.
martin wrote:Clean wrote:People who are saying McBride was a good backup PG for the playoffs is crazy. He gives you 0 play making or shot creation. He is basically a small SG with defense when he has a good game. We have a team with only 2 shot creators/play makers. That is Brunson and Randle. Getting another player with the ability to breakdown the defense became a major need once we traded Quick and RJ. It is why I wanted Brogdan. He can hit an open shot and was a relatively cheap playmaker. It was easy to see we would be lacking in that area. People put too much stock in the regular season when teams play you different during playoff time. That is why Quick went from 6th man of the year to complete trash last playoff. No team should be able to hound Brunson as hard as the Pacers was and we not be able to take advantage of them for overcommiting to him.Imagine if we had Maxey as a SG and they kept defending Brunson the way they were. He would have easily sliced through the disadvantaged rotating defense as the secondary ball handler. I am not saying we need Maxey but we need someone who can punish the defense for overcommiting.
I couldn't have said it better.
Wouldn't some of this be offset if they re-sign iHart and Randle comes back? I agree that it would be nice if t JB could get some rest. I'm just not sure there's a realistic option that makes sense for the current cap situation or would want to come into a situation that provides limited minutes.The best plan would be too to target someone to develop.Maybe Rokas shows something in summer league? Maybe there's another level for McBride to reach?
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
Deuce was MORE than adequate at backup PG, in fact I'd say he was very good and kept getting better as the season went on and will probably continue to get better.
The issue was we simply needed and asked too much from him.
but he's probably one of the better backup PG's in the league.
Don't disagree with this statement. For this past regular season.
Knicks biggest flaw this playoffs was ball handling and PG play when Brunson wasn't playing. That is the new level-set and perspective that we now have to take on cause that'll be the aim of the team.
Do you think that Deuce's growth for the upcoming year with be enough PG play when Brunson sits? Both regular season and playoffs. That's what the Knicks will ask themselves.
Knicks SG's and wings don't have enough ball handling for playoff ball handling territory (DDV, Deuce, OG, Hart; Randle will alleviate some of that). All these guys can certainly start a fast break an all but they not offensive initiators in the half court, that's the role the Knicks need.
Just like PHI without Embidd, we struggled without Brunson b/c he had no help, I don't think it was a matter of specifically PG play, it was a matter of just not having enough talent when Brunson sat.
We have plenty of ballhandlers, Hart, DDV, Deuce, even Burks... it was more about not having that second scorer.
I didn't think Deuce was a PG, but he only got better and better to the point where he was one of the guys I trusted most with the ball.
I am using the wrong words to convey my meaning. I should be using offensive initiation: ball handling and PG play and breakdown ability all together. The Knicks do indeed have ball handling in DDV, Deuce, Burks, Hart but really those guys are not good enough in tight moments (heck we even see Brunson crack and fuck up). The offense sucks when opponent is able to hound Brunson and he essentially doesn't have an outlet. Also, look at the inbound passing.
Our offense can be very good with Brunson doing everything but it's also very very predictable. Having Randle alleviates that. It gets more glaring when Brunson sits, even with Randle.
There is definitely a role there that is missing for the Knicks that Deuce does not fill but maybe can in future or at a lower level than necessary for playoffs. He absolutely fills other buckets on his own very well: defense, shooting.
yea I think that's missing Randle more than anything, and though I've never been a huge Randle fan I can 100% see his value as a 2nd scorer/playmaker. Brunson needs help on the court and also when he's sitting.
but I just don't see that as Deuce lacking as a backup PG, most backup PG's aren't going to be able to create at a high level, that's why they are backups. I mean this sub talks about Tyus Jones alot but he's not going to go out there and create in a playoff environment. We could have had prime Charlie Ward backing up Brunson, he wasn't going to create either. I thought Deuce did very well attacking, bringing the ball up against intense pressure, finishing and running the offense but he's not going to draw attention the way a big scorer like Randle or Brunson do.
That's why I was interested in DJM, but I think that ship has sailed with the play of Deuce and DDV.
For me, there is a world of difference between what Deuce brings in terms of PG capabilities and what Tyus Jones or Charlie Ward would do in similar situations.
Deuce could not do anything close to what Tyus accomplished in Memphis when Ja went down for a long stretch. Deuce is a nice development player but that's not his forte.
Deuce did even better, he averaged 18/5/5 as a starter for a month. Tyus jones career high PPG in any month was 12.9, his playoff career scoring is 5.8 on 37/31 shooting, he's never averaged more than 9.
Deuce put up 11ppg on 44/37 shooting these playoffs, while defending better, for 1/5th the salary... oh and he's 5 years younger too.
I am talking about basketball role and play, you are talking stats. We are having a different discussions.
BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Clean wrote:People who are saying McBride was a good backup PG for the playoffs is crazy. He gives you 0 play making or shot creation. He is basically a small SG with defense when he has a good game. We have a team with only 2 shot creators/play makers. That is Brunson and Randle. Getting another player with the ability to breakdown the defense became a major need once we traded Quick and RJ. It is why I wanted Brogdan. He can hit an open shot and was a relatively cheap playmaker. It was easy to see we would be lacking in that area. People put too much stock in the regular season when teams play you different during playoff time. That is why Quick went from 6th man of the year to complete trash last playoff. No team should be able to hound Brunson as hard as the Pacers was and we not be able to take advantage of them for overcommiting to him.Imagine if we had Maxey as a SG and they kept defending Brunson the way they were. He would have easily sliced through the disadvantaged rotating defense as the secondary ball handler. I am not saying we need Maxey but we need someone who can punish the defense for overcommiting.
I couldn't have said it better.
Wouldn't some of this be offset if they re-sign iHart and Randle comes back? I agree that it would be nice if t JB could get some rest. I'm just not sure there's a realistic option that makes sense for the current cap situation or would want to come into a situation that provides limited minutes.The best plan would be too to target someone to develop.Maybe Rokas shows something in summer league? Maybe there's another level for McBride to reach?
Yes it would, and against 80% of the league it would be good enough. During the regular season it's probably good enough on most all nights.
For me, you need a guy on the floor who can manage an offense. Can iHart and Randle do that for you? In spurts, sure, and I think Knicks would LOVE to run their offense thru iHart more.
Do those guys manage games for you when Brunson is not on court? And I'm definitely talking about the level it needs at a deep playoff run perspective. Deuce is not that guy. Maybe not that guy yet.
Knicks were crap organizationally on offense without Brunson during playoffs. iHart was on the court and it still happened. When Deuce is on court with Randle and no Bruson, Deuce doesn't yet have the juice card enough to take away the mantle of organizing team (neither did IQ imho).
Chandler wrote:i don't see OG and Mikal on the same team. too redundant in many wayswe need someone who can reliably handle the ball, and is clutch.
I have to tell you, on a team with Brunson, Randle, iHart... I think those 2 guys are legit the perfect complimentary players.
Like, I wouldn't pick any 2 others, give or take. Yeah yeah, I'd take Ant over Mikal, but you know what I mean.
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nycericanguy wrote:Chandler wrote:i don't see OG and Mikal on the same team. too redundant in many wayswe need someone who can reliably handle the ball, and is clutch.
I think its fine, can't have enough defenders and shooters.
Imagine putting Mikal and OG on BRown & Tatum.
if you see Mikal as a 2 this makes more sense. though we need another elite player who can handle the ball and initiate. Teams will continue to hound JB
in theory that guy could be Randle but he scares me in clutch situations
martin wrote:Chandler wrote:i don't see OG and Mikal on the same team. too redundant in many wayswe need someone who can reliably handle the ball, and is clutch.
I have to tell you, on a team with Brunson, Randle, iHart... I think those 2 guys are legit the perfect complimentary players.
Like, I wouldn't pick any 2 others, give or take. Yeah yeah, I'd take Ant over Mikal, but you know what I mean.
I might not be giving Mikal anough credit but i do think we need a star level who can handle in the clutch. (OG was that for about 5 minutes when Brunson was out before OG came up with his strain)
to me a lot depends on if Mikal can play 2. If so we're back to being a loooong team eith him at 2, OG at 3.
Chandler wrote:martin wrote:Chandler wrote:i don't see OG and Mikal on the same team. too redundant in many wayswe need someone who can reliably handle the ball, and is clutch.
I have to tell you, on a team with Brunson, Randle, iHart... I think those 2 guys are legit the perfect complimentary players.
Like, I wouldn't pick any 2 others, give or take. Yeah yeah, I'd take Ant over Mikal, but you know what I mean.
I might not be giving Mikal anough credit but i do think we need a star level who can handle in the clutch. (OG was that for about 5 minutes when Brunson was out before OG came up with his strain)
to me a lot depends on if Mikal can play 2. If so we're back to being a loooong team eith him at 2, OG at 3.
And this is what I don't know enough about regarding Mikal. I think he is much better ball handler and breakdown guy than OG, but so am I and I'm prob not sober. I think he is also better than DDV.
But much better than DDV with ball in hands... Dont know.
martin wrote:Chandler wrote:martin wrote:Chandler wrote:i don't see OG and Mikal on the same team. too redundant in many wayswe need someone who can reliably handle the ball, and is clutch.
I have to tell you, on a team with Brunson, Randle, iHart... I think those 2 guys are legit the perfect complimentary players.
Like, I wouldn't pick any 2 others, give or take. Yeah yeah, I'd take Ant over Mikal, but you know what I mean.
I might not be giving Mikal anough credit but i do think we need a star level who can handle in the clutch. (OG was that for about 5 minutes when Brunson was out before OG came up with his strain)
to me a lot depends on if Mikal can play 2. If so we're back to being a loooong team eith him at 2, OG at 3.
And this is what I don't know enough about regarding Mikal. I think he is much better ball handler and breakdown guy than OG, but so am I and I'm prob not sober. I think he is also better than DDV.
But much better than DDV with ball in hands... Dont know.
Objectively, I want the Mikal Bridges from the Phoenix Suns and not the one from the Nets. Suns Bridges was a 15% usage guy that benefited from strong primary ballhandler. 15 points on 60% efg. In Brooklyn, his usage doubled and his efficiency dropped. He went from 15 ppg to 19 ppg on 5 more attempts per game. Somewhat answering the question on whether he could be a primary scorer - NO. But I am not looking for primary scorers next to Brunson and Randle. I think he can give you the same 40% from 3 that DDV brings with a bit more positional size.
What Mikal brings is another defensive stalwart that is not a liability on offense. Give us a little more size to hang with the larger guards. You are putting another 7 foot perimeter defender with terrific on ball defense and quick hands. I don't think there is a better one/two defensive pairing than Bridges/Anunoby. Leonard/George is the only comparison.
EwingsGlass wrote:martin wrote:Chandler wrote:martin wrote:Chandler wrote:i don't see OG and Mikal on the same team. too redundant in many wayswe need someone who can reliably handle the ball, and is clutch.
I have to tell you, on a team with Brunson, Randle, iHart... I think those 2 guys are legit the perfect complimentary players.
Like, I wouldn't pick any 2 others, give or take. Yeah yeah, I'd take Ant over Mikal, but you know what I mean.
I might not be giving Mikal anough credit but i do think we need a star level who can handle in the clutch. (OG was that for about 5 minutes when Brunson was out before OG came up with his strain)
to me a lot depends on if Mikal can play 2. If so we're back to being a loooong team eith him at 2, OG at 3.
And this is what I don't know enough about regarding Mikal. I think he is much better ball handler and breakdown guy than OG, but so am I and I'm prob not sober. I think he is also better than DDV.
But much better than DDV with ball in hands... Dont know.
Objectively, I want the Mikal Bridges from the Phoenix Suns and not the one from the Nets. Suns Bridges was a 15% usage guy that benefited from strong primary ballhandler. 15 points on 60% efg. In Brooklyn, his usage doubled and his efficiency dropped. He went from 15 ppg to 19 ppg on 5 more attempts per game. Somewhat answering the question on whether he could be a primary scorer - NO. But I am not looking for primary scorers next to Brunson and Randle. I think he can give you the same 40% from 3 that DDV brings with a bit more positional size.
What Mikal brings is another defensive stalwart that is not a liability on offense. Give us a little more size to hang with the larger guards. You are putting another 7 foot perimeter defender with terrific on ball defense and quick hands. I don't think there is a better one/two defensive pairing than Bridges/Anunoby. Leonard/George is the only comparison.
Yeah. I think Mikal is a guy who THRIVES when around guys like Randle and Brunson. Just put him in the right role.
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
Deuce was MORE than adequate at backup PG, in fact I'd say he was very good and kept getting better as the season went on and will probably continue to get better.
The issue was we simply needed and asked too much from him.
but he's probably one of the better backup PG's in the league.
Don't disagree with this statement. For this past regular season.
Knicks biggest flaw this playoffs was ball handling and PG play when Brunson wasn't playing. That is the new level-set and perspective that we now have to take on cause that'll be the aim of the team.
Do you think that Deuce's growth for the upcoming year with be enough PG play when Brunson sits? Both regular season and playoffs. That's what the Knicks will ask themselves.
Knicks SG's and wings don't have enough ball handling for playoff ball handling territory (DDV, Deuce, OG, Hart; Randle will alleviate some of that). All these guys can certainly start a fast break an all but they not offensive initiators in the half court, that's the role the Knicks need.
Just like PHI without Embidd, we struggled without Brunson b/c he had no help, I don't think it was a matter of specifically PG play, it was a matter of just not having enough talent when Brunson sat.
We have plenty of ballhandlers, Hart, DDV, Deuce, even Burks... it was more about not having that second scorer.
I didn't think Deuce was a PG, but he only got better and better to the point where he was one of the guys I trusted most with the ball.
I am using the wrong words to convey my meaning. I should be using offensive initiation: ball handling and PG play and breakdown ability all together. The Knicks do indeed have ball handling in DDV, Deuce, Burks, Hart but really those guys are not good enough in tight moments (heck we even see Brunson crack and fuck up). The offense sucks when opponent is able to hound Brunson and he essentially doesn't have an outlet. Also, look at the inbound passing.
Our offense can be very good with Brunson doing everything but it's also very very predictable. Having Randle alleviates that. It gets more glaring when Brunson sits, even with Randle.
There is definitely a role there that is missing for the Knicks that Deuce does not fill but maybe can in future or at a lower level than necessary for playoffs. He absolutely fills other buckets on his own very well: defense, shooting.
yea I think that's missing Randle more than anything, and though I've never been a huge Randle fan I can 100% see his value as a 2nd scorer/playmaker. Brunson needs help on the court and also when he's sitting.
but I just don't see that as Deuce lacking as a backup PG, most backup PG's aren't going to be able to create at a high level, that's why they are backups. I mean this sub talks about Tyus Jones alot but he's not going to go out there and create in a playoff environment. We could have had prime Charlie Ward backing up Brunson, he wasn't going to create either. I thought Deuce did very well attacking, bringing the ball up against intense pressure, finishing and running the offense but he's not going to draw attention the way a big scorer like Randle or Brunson do.
That's why I was interested in DJM, but I think that ship has sailed with the play of Deuce and DDV.
For me, there is a world of difference between what Deuce brings in terms of PG capabilities and what Tyus Jones or Charlie Ward would do in similar situations.
Deuce could not do anything close to what Tyus accomplished in Memphis when Ja went down for a long stretch. Deuce is a nice development player but that's not his forte.
Deuce did even better, he averaged 18/5/5 as a starter for a month. Tyus jones career high PPG in any month was 12.9, his playoff career scoring is 5.8 on 37/31 shooting, he's never averaged more than 9.
Deuce put up 11ppg on 44/37 shooting these playoffs, while defending better, for 1/5th the salary... oh and he's 5 years younger too.
I am talking about basketball role and play, you are talking stats. We are having a different discussions.
No i'm using stats to backup my point.
Unless you watched every game Tyus played without Ja you are also going off stats.
What Deuce did this season on a WINNING team at age 23 in his 1st real season of playing time is like nothing Tyus has done in his NINE NBA seasons. I'm taking Deuce over Tyus 10 times out of 10 and that's not even factoring the fact that Deuece makes 20% what Tyus does.
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:Bogey+Deuce+ 3 first round picks.BUT....then some combo of DDV/Hart and Mikal are your backup PG in most tight rotation nights.
Im not sure I go bigger for Mikal unless we OG is asking for 40mm.
Today, Knicks backup PG is Deuce and he was not an adequate PG during the playoffs, far from it, and most likely not for regular season too but that's debatable and he will develop. So it's not like the Knicks are in a different position. They still need a backup PG.
Knicks would perhaps gain MLE usage cause they would no longer be in second apron territory if they play it right.
Deuce was MORE than adequate at backup PG, in fact I'd say he was very good and kept getting better as the season went on and will probably continue to get better.
The issue was we simply needed and asked too much from him.
but he's probably one of the better backup PG's in the league.
Don't disagree with this statement. For this past regular season.
Knicks biggest flaw this playoffs was ball handling and PG play when Brunson wasn't playing. That is the new level-set and perspective that we now have to take on cause that'll be the aim of the team.
Do you think that Deuce's growth for the upcoming year with be enough PG play when Brunson sits? Both regular season and playoffs. That's what the Knicks will ask themselves.
Knicks SG's and wings don't have enough ball handling for playoff ball handling territory (DDV, Deuce, OG, Hart; Randle will alleviate some of that). All these guys can certainly start a fast break an all but they not offensive initiators in the half court, that's the role the Knicks need.
Just like PHI without Embidd, we struggled without Brunson b/c he had no help, I don't think it was a matter of specifically PG play, it was a matter of just not having enough talent when Brunson sat.
We have plenty of ballhandlers, Hart, DDV, Deuce, even Burks... it was more about not having that second scorer.
I didn't think Deuce was a PG, but he only got better and better to the point where he was one of the guys I trusted most with the ball.
I am using the wrong words to convey my meaning. I should be using offensive initiation: ball handling and PG play and breakdown ability all together. The Knicks do indeed have ball handling in DDV, Deuce, Burks, Hart but really those guys are not good enough in tight moments (heck we even see Brunson crack and fuck up). The offense sucks when opponent is able to hound Brunson and he essentially doesn't have an outlet. Also, look at the inbound passing.
Our offense can be very good with Brunson doing everything but it's also very very predictable. Having Randle alleviates that. It gets more glaring when Brunson sits, even with Randle.
There is definitely a role there that is missing for the Knicks that Deuce does not fill but maybe can in future or at a lower level than necessary for playoffs. He absolutely fills other buckets on his own very well: defense, shooting.
yea I think that's missing Randle more than anything, and though I've never been a huge Randle fan I can 100% see his value as a 2nd scorer/playmaker. Brunson needs help on the court and also when he's sitting.
but I just don't see that as Deuce lacking as a backup PG, most backup PG's aren't going to be able to create at a high level, that's why they are backups. I mean this sub talks about Tyus Jones alot but he's not going to go out there and create in a playoff environment. We could have had prime Charlie Ward backing up Brunson, he wasn't going to create either. I thought Deuce did very well attacking, bringing the ball up against intense pressure, finishing and running the offense but he's not going to draw attention the way a big scorer like Randle or Brunson do.
That's why I was interested in DJM, but I think that ship has sailed with the play of Deuce and DDV.
For me, there is a world of difference between what Deuce brings in terms of PG capabilities and what Tyus Jones or Charlie Ward would do in similar situations.
Deuce could not do anything close to what Tyus accomplished in Memphis when Ja went down for a long stretch. Deuce is a nice development player but that's not his forte.
Deuce did even better, he averaged 18/5/5 as a starter for a month. Tyus jones career high PPG in any month was 12.9, his playoff career scoring is 5.8 on 37/31 shooting, he's never averaged more than 9.
Deuce put up 11ppg on 44/37 shooting these playoffs, while defending better, for 1/5th the salary... oh and he's 5 years younger too.
I am talking about basketball role and play, you are talking stats. We are having a different discussions.
No i'm using stats to backup my point.
Unless you watched every game Tyus played without Ja you are also going off stats.
What Deuce did this season on a WINNING team at age 23 in his 1st real season of playing time is like nothing Tyus has done in his NINE NBA seasons. I'm taking Deuce over Tyus 10 times out of 10 and that's not even factoring the fact that Deuece makes 20% what Tyus does.
Deuce hasn’t really shown playmaking skills. Deuce can create opportunities for himself in the mid range and shoots the three well. Doesn’t seem to create opportunities for others. His 5 assists were mainly because DDV has a lightning fast trigger. So those stats are interesting and solid in replacement of Brunson in the combo guard role, but the role of playmaker would bream creating opportunities for others.
I still really don't know exactly how he fits in though. We would want more Nova guys, so what happens when Bridges, Hart, and DDV are fighting for the same minutes? Would Hart be willing to play PF full time? If so what does that mean for OG? I am hesitant with Bridges simply because of our current roster. I feel like what makes the most sense would be to trade Hart of DDV and then that makes me like the idea of overpaying for a Nova guy a lot less
DLeethal wrote:I love Deuce but I think ideally there’s a legit playmaker off the bench with him. I don’t know that it has to be a PG i.e it could be a Derozan type. But we will struggle when Brunson gets hurt. We need another ball handler on the team next year IMO and the only way to get a good one is to draft one or get a guy who has a nightly role and plays next to Deuce.
100% and this is why I am head over heals for Deni. He *potentially* fits the space you are describing off bench at a wing position who can almost double up as a PG. He is no where near Demar... today.
He has potential to be that guy and defend (one of the better wing defenders in league) and space and grow into a playoff starter.
His descending contract is double bonus.
Deni would make Precious expendable. He could double as ball handler or central offensive focus while also being Randle and OG's backup as a starter, very interchangeable.
I don't give us as much as I would for Mikal, but I would give up significant resources going out.