Knicks · Is the knicks center depth that much of a weakness compared to other top teams? (page 1)
Mitch is injury prone, we don't have much behind him. That's 100% true.
However if we compare to other top tier teams, they have the same weakness as the knicks.
Boston: KP is as much injury prone as Mitch and behind him, it's 38 years old Horford (who doesn't play much down low) and Kornet. That's nothing to be afraid of. Randle and Achiuwa could maybe even guard KP and the rest better than Mitch.
Phillie: Embiid is as much as injury prone as Mitch and is WAY more important to Phillie than Mitch to the knicks. Behind him it's Drummond. A good rebounder but that's about it.
Indiana: Turner is less injury prone but doesn't play much near the basket. Achiuwa and Randle could defend against him. Behind him it's Wiseman. A bust.
Cleveland: Allen and Mobley could pose a problem. They are young and long. They are not winning a playoff serie by themselves though.
Milwaukee: Brook Lopez is older and doesn't play near the basket. It's not necessary to have 7 footers to defend him. Behind him they have nothing.
Orlando: Carter Jr, Mo Wagner and Bitadze. This is a nice collection of centers. With Mitch down, it would pose a problem but they're not winning a playoff serie because of them as well.
In the west, Denver has Jokic who no one is stopping anyway. Dallas, OKC and Minnesota has some nice center depth. The knicks would be at a real disadvantage but it's the finals.
https://www.nba.com/news/the-qa-tom-thib...
How do you begin to replace Hartenstein? [The 7-footer who was so valuable stepping in for injured Mitchell Robinson signed as a free agent with the Thunder in July.]
We went through that last year. We started the season where Mitchell was the starter and he was off to a monster start. When he went out, Jericho Sims started initially, then he got hurt. Then Isaiah came in and did what he did. But when he got hurt, Precious [Achiuwa] came in along with Taj Gibson. So we rotated guys at that position the entire year.
We’ll probably have to do it by committee. We’ll look at some different things, because we have versatility — we could see Julius more at the 5. I don’t want to do that for long stretches, it would take its toll, but to have him do it for 10 or 15 minutes, I think he can do it well. He also would create a lot of [offensive] advantages.
Bucks have a 7 foot freak. Rim protection outside of BroPez.
Embiid is Top 5 player regardless of position. He drops they don't contend anymore. Same with any MVP talent.
Indy? Turner is sort of the new age center. Has rim protection length but range.
KP? He was true to himself but still contributed enough to win a chip.
Orlando? Banchero and Issac are not 5's, but they have size and heft.
Clev? Health matters. Mobley did very well as a 5 when Allen went down. I don't know who comes off the bench but if Allen is not necessary he can be traded at some point.
Out West Grizz have Naz Reid who could start for many teams. It makes KAT a trade chip?
The bottom line is any top talent on a team goes down it handicaps chip aspirations. Boston was stacked! KP still had some meaningful games and he did tough it out.
Tatum at 6-10 gave them some length and luck have it knicks fell apart, Philly record dropped them to a lower seed. Knicks had to grind it out with them. MIlwaukee was hobbled.
Boston outside of KP was super healthy and it was enough.
Maybe Knicks have this kind of depth even as constructed?
shinmen wrote:I understand what you mean. That's true, we won't have the same rim protection and the loss of IHart definitely hurts the knicks. Still, it's worth noting that very few teams will be able to exploit this weakness as it's shared by a lot of teams. I hope that with OG, Bridges, Hart, Donte there won't be the need to have a good rim protector at all time.
I took a look at the Center depth of various teams. The competitive East teams locked up centers and backups. Many many teams have a starter that plays 60 games or less and then a 6'10 or less backup.
I have a weird sense of calm here. While the hole in the lineup is glaring and obvious, its so glaring and obvious that the FO is doing nothing about it also. But I have so much confidence in their decision-making, I have no doubt that there is a plan.
1) Most obvious plan is the Knicks' mantra. Next man up. Sims has been putting in work with the Knicks coaches for 3 years. We've seen him catch spot minutes here and there. He has elite athleticism. He has made every cut despite being drafted 58th overall in 2021. We saw the Knicks move IQ when Deuce was ready. I don't think this is the same, iHart left, we didn't move him. But the "process" here is to grind until there is opportunity then make the most of it. Its his shot.
2) More misleading is Precious Achiuwa. With $6m for 1 year and a waiver on the no trade clause, this contract screams trade filler. I would argue the best move is to get him situations to push up his trade value, but his role seemed significantly restricted to backing up OG from the PF position. A role that doesn't really exist while Randle is healthy. Will we see minutes from Achiuwa at C? Yeah, I would guess. But if the Knicks viewed him as a long term solution it would not be a 1 year contract. Of all our players, I think he has the most upside - with him, I am just waiting for the "click" the moment where the game slows down for him and things just click. Once that occurs, he has every tool to be a beast in this league. My complete guess is they offered him a Deuce contract where they would get him minutes in exchange for a 4 year deal at a lower rack rate and he turned it down. Result is a 1 year trade chip contract.
3) Hukpori. I don't want to get ahead of myself. This guy is so interesting for us. I really want to see some playing time from him but I know it will take time for him to get the fundamentals. He has every physical tool we could want from the defensive side. Lacking offensively. Just need to watch his development.
4) Randle/OG - Positionless basketball. The way Shinmen states, there isn't a ton of center depth in the league. Between strength (Randle) and wingspan (OG), they can cover 70% of the rostered "centers" in the league and in the elite situations, I might expect OG guarding the center anyway.
EwingsGlass wrote:shinmen wrote:I understand what you mean. That's true, we won't have the same rim protection and the loss of IHart definitely hurts the knicks. Still, it's worth noting that very few teams will be able to exploit this weakness as it's shared by a lot of teams. I hope that with OG, Bridges, Hart, Donte there won't be the need to have a good rim protector at all time.I took a look at the Center depth of various teams. The competitive East teams locked up centers and backups. Many many teams have a starter that plays 60 games or less and then a 6'10 or less backup.
I have a weird sense of calm here. While the hole in the lineup is glaring and obvious, its so glaring and obvious that the FO is doing nothing about it also. But I have so much confidence in their decision-making, I have no doubt that there is a plan.1) Most obvious plan is the Knicks' mantra. Next man up. Sims has been putting in work with the Knicks coaches for 3 years. We've seen him catch spot minutes here and there. He has elite athleticism. He has made every cut despite being drafted 58th overall in 2021. We saw the Knicks move IQ when Deuce was ready. I don't think this is the same, iHart left, we didn't move him. But the "process" here is to grind until there is opportunity then make the most of it. Its his shot.
2) More misleading is Precious Achiuwa. With $6m for 1 year and a waiver on the no trade clause, this contract screams trade filler. I would argue the best move is to get him situations to push up his trade value, but his role seemed significantly restricted to backing up OG from the PF position. A role that doesn't really exist while Randle is healthy. Will we see minutes from Achiuwa at C? Yeah, I would guess. But if the Knicks viewed him as a long term solution it would not be a 1 year contract. Of all our players, I think he has the most upside - with him, I am just waiting for the "click" the moment where the game slows down for him and things just click. Once that occurs, he has every tool to be a beast in this league. My complete guess is they offered him a Deuce contract where they would get him minutes in exchange for a 4 year deal at a lower rack rate and he turned it down. Result is a 1 year trade chip contract.
3) Hukpori. I don't want to get ahead of myself. This guy is so interesting for us. I really want to see some playing time from him but I know it will take time for him to get the fundamentals. He has every physical tool we could want from the defensive side. Lacking offensively. Just need to watch his development.
4) Randle/OG - Positionless basketball. The way Shinmen states, there isn't a ton of center depth in the league. Between strength (Randle) and wingspan (OG), they can cover 70% of the rostered "centers" in the league and in the elite situations, I might expect OG guarding the center anyway.
+1, especially the bolded
Steph, Klay, Green, Harrison Barnes, Bogut. Main bench: Iggy, Livingston, Barboso. Not bad scrap types after that in Brandon Rush, Anderson Varejão, Marreese Speights, Festus Ezeli
Brunson, Mikal, OG, Randle, Big Mitch. Main bench: Deuce, DDV, Hart, Precious. Knicks scraps: Cam Payne, Shamet, Morris, Sims. Westchester marinating: Kolek, Dadiet, Hoktuah.
VDesai wrote:Its a topic of conversation not because of relative depth compared to other teams. The reason its a topic is that the Knicks like to play with 48 mins of rim protection and had one of the best center duos in the league for the last 2 seasons, one that was good enough to win them a playoff series (against the team with some of the best up front size in the NBA). Losing someone who was an important rebounder/rim protector and pick and roll player for 25-30 mins a game without a like for like replacement is where the anxiety comes in. Achiuwa fills some of the gap, but he is small and has a lot of limitations offensively, so its not a "like for like" situation. The answer could be the Knicks play differently. The roster has shifted - there's more defensive versatility because of Bridges and Anunoby. The answer, from the coach's mouth himself, is we'll do things by committee and give different looks, including Randle. Will make for a different dynamic this year with different advantages and disadvantages than in years past.https://www.nba.com/news/the-qa-tom-thib...
How do you begin to replace Hartenstein? [The 7-footer who was so valuable stepping in for injured Mitchell Robinson signed as a free agent with the Thunder in July.]
We went through that last year. We started the season where Mitchell was the starter and he was off to a monster start. When he went out, Jericho Sims started initially, then he got hurt. Then Isaiah came in and did what he did. But when he got hurt, Precious [Achiuwa] came in along with Taj Gibson. So we rotated guys at that position the entire year.
We’ll probably have to do it by committee. We’ll look at some different things, because we have versatility — we could see Julius more at the 5. I don’t want to do that for long stretches, it would take its toll, but to have him do it for 10 or 15 minutes, I think he can do it well. He also would create a lot of [offensive] advantages.
I don't think you can say it any better. Knicks have always had 2 guys that started with very well defined rim protection roles and went from there. Now they have 1 but a ton of really great wings and can now redefine their start point now too.
It's not wild speculation that if the right deal went down and the other side needed a 2-way guard who is tough as nails and gritty af, the Knicks have a lot of those and 1 in particular that they will hold on to for the longest time for the right swap, cause they love him that much; it'll be a place where he can really get minutes.
My guess is that the biggest worry for the Knicks is playoffs, a 7 game series where Embiid is healthy or it's the Cavs or Bucks - they will need Mitch-god for all his good work down low. Or obviously permanent injury.
Knicks will strike that bell and give up some more for the right dude like Bobby Portis if he was ever in a trade spot. And they also know they can wait the whole year because a lot of second tier centers will become UFA at the end of the year. Brook Lopez, Portis, Steven Adams, Bagely. I can see Adams getting cut and landing in NY this year.
Knicks and Detroit have a lot of connections and good vibes. I have zero clue why Detroit would give up on a guy like Duren. But, Deuce next to Cade makes a lot of sense (more than Ivey at this point) and if Detroit can get their pick back, they can tank for 2 more years and not worry and they could start their base of young 2-way wings with a fatal flaw down the middle which they address later on. It's flimsy but NY just also hired the best big man coach by NBA rep standards FROM Detroit and that's how Leon operates IMHO. Maybe I just need to dial back the meds though.
As others have mentioned, Sims improving over the summer would be a big deal. Having a nose for the ball like iHart did. No just waiting for a chance to contribute, looking for ways to contribute. Been one dimensional to this point.
martin wrote:Knicks and Detroit have a lot of connections and good vibes. I have zero clue why Detroit would give up on a guy like Duren. But, Deuce next to Cade makes a lot of sense (more than Ivey at this point) and if Detroit can get their pick back, they can tank for 2 more years and not worry and they could start their base of young 2-way wings with a fatal flaw down the middle which they address later on. It's flimsy but NY just also hired the best big man coach by NBA rep standards FROM Detroit and that's how Leon operates IMHO. Maybe I just need to dial back the meds though.
I'd see Durenas more of a play for the future than a guy who can be expected to really help a contending team. His defense is just that bad. I'd rather just go with Precious than give up Deuce. Now if you're selling this as the team grooming MitchRob's future replacement, I can see the vision. I'd still be hesitant to make that move tho. Now's not the time to be babysitting big men on the bench.
GustavBahler wrote:If the lack of depth us an issue before the first trade deadline, Im confident the FO will handle it.As others have mentioned, Sims improving over the summer would be a big deal. Having a nose for the ball like iHart did. No just waiting for a chance to contribute, looking for ways to contribute. Been one dimensional to this point.
Sims was apparently hurt last season and I attribute some of that to his lethargy of defense. Just need decent third big man energy.
BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Knicks and Detroit have a lot of connections and good vibes. I have zero clue why Detroit would give up on a guy like Duren. But, Deuce next to Cade makes a lot of sense (more than Ivey at this point) and if Detroit can get their pick back, they can tank for 2 more years and not worry and they could start their base of young 2-way wings with a fatal flaw down the middle which they address later on. It's flimsy but NY just also hired the best big man coach by NBA rep standards FROM Detroit and that's how Leon operates IMHO. Maybe I just need to dial back the meds though.I'd see Durenas more of a play for the future than a guy who can be expected to really help a contending team. His defense is just that bad. I'd rather just go with Precious than give up Deuce. Now if you're selling this as the team grooming MitchRob's future replacement, I can see the vision. I'd still be hesitant to make that move tho. Now's not the time to be babysitting big men on the bench.
If that’s the case Ix-Nay on the rade-tay.
martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Knicks and Detroit have a lot of connections and good vibes. I have zero clue why Detroit would give up on a guy like Duren. But, Deuce next to Cade makes a lot of sense (more than Ivey at this point) and if Detroit can get their pick back, they can tank for 2 more years and not worry and they could start their base of young 2-way wings with a fatal flaw down the middle which they address later on. It's flimsy but NY just also hired the best big man coach by NBA rep standards FROM Detroit and that's how Leon operates IMHO. Maybe I just need to dial back the meds though.I'd see Durenas more of a play for the future than a guy who can be expected to really help a contending team. His defense is just that bad. I'd rather just go with Precious than give up Deuce. Now if you're selling this as the team grooming MitchRob's future replacement, I can see the vision. I'd still be hesitant to make that move tho. Now's not the time to be babysitting big men on the bench.
If that’s the case Ix-Nay on the rade-tay.
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/ToTheBasketPod/status/1788950521421644017?t=_gS_NBEq_RkuSY8PwyOSYQ&s=19
Click here to view the Tweet
BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Knicks and Detroit have a lot of connections and good vibes. I have zero clue why Detroit would give up on a guy like Duren. But, Deuce next to Cade makes a lot of sense (more than Ivey at this point) and if Detroit can get their pick back, they can tank for 2 more years and not worry and they could start their base of young 2-way wings with a fatal flaw down the middle which they address later on. It's flimsy but NY just also hired the best big man coach by NBA rep standards FROM Detroit and that's how Leon operates IMHO. Maybe I just need to dial back the meds though.I'd see Durenas more of a play for the future than a guy who can be expected to really help a contending team. His defense is just that bad. I'd rather just go with Precious than give up Deuce. Now if you're selling this as the team grooming MitchRob's future replacement, I can see the vision. I'd still be hesitant to make that move tho. Now's not the time to be babysitting big men on the bench.
If that’s the case Ix-Nay on the rade-tay.
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/ToTheBasketPod/status/1788950521421644017?t=_gS_NBEq_RkuSY8PwyOSYQ&s=19
Click here to view the Tweet
This is all fair. It’s also exactly what Mitch looked like early on but with his own special zest.
When you have crappy schemes and guards to cover for, everyone looks silly. Could be that Duren just sucks too.
martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Knicks and Detroit have a lot of connections and good vibes. I have zero clue why Detroit would give up on a guy like Duren. But, Deuce next to Cade makes a lot of sense (more than Ivey at this point) and if Detroit can get their pick back, they can tank for 2 more years and not worry and they could start their base of young 2-way wings with a fatal flaw down the middle which they address later on. It's flimsy but NY just also hired the best big man coach by NBA rep standards FROM Detroit and that's how Leon operates IMHO. Maybe I just need to dial back the meds though.I'd see Durenas more of a play for the future than a guy who can be expected to really help a contending team. His defense is just that bad. I'd rather just go with Precious than give up Deuce. Now if you're selling this as the team grooming MitchRob's future replacement, I can see the vision. I'd still be hesitant to make that move tho. Now's not the time to be babysitting big men on the bench.
If that’s the case Ix-Nay on the rade-tay.
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/ToTheBasketPod/status/1788950521421644017?t=_gS_NBEq_RkuSY8PwyOSYQ&s=19
Click here to view the TweetThis is all fair. It’s also exactly what Mitch looked like early on but with his own special zest.
When you have crappy schemes and guards to cover for, everyone looks silly. Could be that Duren just sucks too.
Don't get me wrong. Duren is exactly the type of talent I would kick the tires on when the team was on a different timeframe. But he doesn't fill a need right now and we all know Thibs isnt going to have the patience for that type of defensive effort. It's a win now team and, if I'm trading Deuce, I'd want a player who can contribute immediately.
Mitch could easily be out with injury, Embiid could be healthy-ish. Steep hill to climb.
I put Mitch in the same category as KP now. I expect both to miss a LOT of games.
F*** OKC! 
BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Knicks and Detroit have a lot of connections and good vibes. I have zero clue why Detroit would give up on a guy like Duren. But, Deuce next to Cade makes a lot of sense (more than Ivey at this point) and if Detroit can get their pick back, they can tank for 2 more years and not worry and they could start their base of young 2-way wings with a fatal flaw down the middle which they address later on. It's flimsy but NY just also hired the best big man coach by NBA rep standards FROM Detroit and that's how Leon operates IMHO. Maybe I just need to dial back the meds though.I'd see Durenas more of a play for the future than a guy who can be expected to really help a contending team. His defense is just that bad. I'd rather just go with Precious than give up Deuce. Now if you're selling this as the team grooming MitchRob's future replacement, I can see the vision. I'd still be hesitant to make that move tho. Now's not the time to be babysitting big men on the bench.
If that’s the case Ix-Nay on the rade-tay.
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/ToTheBasketPod/status/1788950521421644017?t=_gS_NBEq_RkuSY8PwyOSYQ&s=19
Click here to view the TweetThis is all fair. It’s also exactly what Mitch looked like early on but with his own special zest.
When you have crappy schemes and guards to cover for, everyone looks silly. Could be that Duren just sucks too.
Don't get me wrong. Duren is exactly the type of talent I would kick the tires on when the team was on a different timeframe. But he doesn't fill a need right now and we all know Thibs isnt going to have the patience for that type of defensive effort. It's a win now team and, if I'm trading Deuce, I'd want a player who can contribute immediately.
It is the backup position
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/knicks_union/status/1836531317644669344?s=61&t=X2NvaBkjFz8kZPoGlCbCzA
Click here to view the Tweet
martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:Knicks and Detroit have a lot of connections and good vibes. I have zero clue why Detroit would give up on a guy like Duren. But, Deuce next to Cade makes a lot of sense (more than Ivey at this point) and if Detroit can get their pick back, they can tank for 2 more years and not worry and they could start their base of young 2-way wings with a fatal flaw down the middle which they address later on. It's flimsy but NY just also hired the best big man coach by NBA rep standards FROM Detroit and that's how Leon operates IMHO. Maybe I just need to dial back the meds though.I'd see Durenas more of a play for the future than a guy who can be expected to really help a contending team. His defense is just that bad. I'd rather just go with Precious than give up Deuce. Now if you're selling this as the team grooming MitchRob's future replacement, I can see the vision. I'd still be hesitant to make that move tho. Now's not the time to be babysitting big men on the bench.
If that’s the case Ix-Nay on the rade-tay.
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/ToTheBasketPod/status/1788950521421644017?t=_gS_NBEq_RkuSY8PwyOSYQ&s=19
Click here to view the TweetThis is all fair. It’s also exactly what Mitch looked like early on but with his own special zest.
When you have crappy schemes and guards to cover for, everyone looks silly. Could be that Duren just sucks too.
Don't get me wrong. Duren is exactly the type of talent I would kick the tires on when the team was on a different timeframe. But he doesn't fill a need right now and we all know Thibs isnt going to have the patience for that type of defensive effort. It's a win now team and, if I'm trading Deuce, I'd want a player who can contribute immediately.It is the backup position
Thibs would rather play Taj Gibson on a walker, which is to say, he'd rather play Taj Gibson today.
BigDaddyG wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If the lack of depth us an issue before the first trade deadline, Im confident the FO will handle it.As others have mentioned, Sims improving over the summer would be a big deal. Having a nose for the ball like iHart did. No just waiting for a chance to contribute, looking for ways to contribute. Been one dimensional to this point.
Sims was apparently hurt last season and I attribute some of that to his lethargy of defense. Just need decent third big man energy.
I'm not totally discounting Sims being hurt for his performance the last couple of seasons. Im sure thats played a part. But I believe decision making has played a part as well. Often looked lost out there.
Im glad Sims worked with Bibby over the summer on his shooting, but I hope he also worked with the big man coach, or a veteran on the other stuff.
I think we look at things from the glasses of how we perceive Thibs versus the rest of the league and that's how we are looking at this, but the FO and Thibs have shown a willingness to modernize each year different things. This reminds me of all the "backup 4" chatter last year, yet the plan all along was to give Hart that role off the bench and play smaller 1-4. I think the plan here is to give Randle more minutes at the backup 5 which will allow more minutes for everyone else to level out in our deep rotation.